Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[TSRD]

I think that's a subjective and entirely too minor a thing to make "official." Taunt being called a "control" move instead of a "status" move isn't going to really tell anyone anything they can't see for themselves (and any real tactical insight would come from an actual conversation in which you can talk about how Taunt "controls" the game all you like). It might make them ask "What is a 'control' move in the context of ASB? Are there some kind of special rules? It's just called a status move in normal pokemon..." Why deviate from the new player's prior knowledge and expectations for such a questionable benefit? Status is just as "correct" a label (because that is what it is) and tells new players about the move mechanically rather than tactically, which outside of a strategy guide seems IMO preferable.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

[00:27:13] <Texas> control can be more closely defined as moves or abilities which aim to restrict an opponents options, either by the limiting of move options or by the controlling of the matchup through switching and such inducing moves

>"What is a 'control' move in the context of ASB?"


Personally I think giving new players more information to familiarize themselves with the game and giving them a better idea of tactics is a good thing. God knows how many new players suck shit and quit because of it.

edit: Hell you could retain the 'status' classification and open up sub-classifications including control and support for all I care, more information=better when properly controlled

 

[Its_A_Random]

Okay which bright spark decided it was a good idea to have Weak Armour on by default?

I mean imo the whole toggle changes were pointless but wasn't the point of the changes to have the superior effect on by default?

I mean tell me, but how is getting destroyed by a Cinccino's Tail Slap followed up by <insert physical move here> the superior effect of Weak Armour unless your name is Mandibuzz?

IMO we should change Weak Armour back to the way it was. -1 Def, +1 Spe on getting hit by a contact move generally is not superior. >_>

 

[TSRD]

I thought the idea was to make them consistent with in-game (which means "on" in this case). It can still be turned off after all.

But whatever, not that I really care...

 

[akela]

Okay which bright spark decided it was a good idea to have Weak Armour on by default?

I mean imo the whole toggle changes were pointless but wasn't the point of the changes to have the superior effect on by default?

I mean tell me, but how is getting destroyed by a Cinccino's Tail Slap followed up by <insert physical move here> the superior effect of Weak Armour unless your name is Mandibuzz?

IMO we should change Weak Armour back to the way it was. -1 Def, +1 Spe on getting hit by a contact move generally is not superior. >_>

The original reason behind the changes of Toggle moves (the original case being Sheer Force) was to have players not get screwed because they forgot to toggle their ability (Not having Sheer Force's BAP boost because you forgot to toggle it). After those changes were implemented, then someone had the bright idea that all Toggle Abilities needed to be consistent with each other by having their in-cartridge effect be the default effect. Now, you get screwed because you forgot to toggle your ability.

17 Pokemon get Weak Armor. Of these 17 Pokemon, only 2 of them don't give a hoot if they are hit with a Contact move while Weak Armor's effect is active. These two being Vullaby and Mandibuzz, as the negative part of Weak Armor is negated by Big Pecks. The remaining 15? 8 of them are rock-types, which is why everyone has ignored my complaints about it.

 

[Frosty]

to be fair, consistency was also a reason for the changes on toggle. The previous council just valued that consistency>memory problems.

I disagree with that and voted against it when the council voted on it. And I continue with that stance. BUT. Its a very very recent decision, so you better gather massive support before creating a thread. Or support of 2 other councilmen other than you. Because if the discussion is relived for naught, I will be a very very pissed mod.

 

[Rainman Legends]

fuck consistency, id rather have common sense>consistency and im sure alot of people feel that way. Weak armor has no reason not being toggled on by default when it harms most of its users. This also goes for stuff like symbiosis.

 

[Mowtom]

Wrt the continuing debate about toggle ablilites: What is Aurumoth supposed to do if it wants Weak Armor off? There needs to be a way to toggle it without revealing the Illusion.

 

[tavok]

@ Above: Maybe doing so in the PM you send to the ref? I think that's the best we can do if -1 Def +Spe on contact moves stays as the default.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

I would like to bring something unrelated up here.

Kings Rock was recently nerfed changed to allow non-contact attacks to receive the flinch chance that it applies. Now, this is all fine and dandy, but I feel that the real issue with Kings Rock has not been fixed, but rather overlooked by concern for less then reputable strategies. This is how it stands as of now.

All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank.

Now, what I see wrong with Kings Rock is that the Pokemon for which it qualifies as a signature item for have really no incentive to use it over other options, and that rubs me the wrong way to have a signature item that doesn't see any use by the Pokemon it is supposed to help. None of these Pokemon, with the exception of maybe Poliwhirl, are truly fast enough to make use of the flinch effect, and the extra Special Attack rank isn't really doing anything special, seeing as the extra damage that it provides is very easily eclipsed through items such as Expert Belt or, in Politoed's case, Mystic Water.

I think one of a couple of things could be done to solve this problem here, so I've taken the liberty of drafting up a few proposals, listed IMO in most to least likely to be considered:

All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank, and increases the BAP of Water and Psychic typed attacks by two (2).

All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack and Special Defense by one (1) rank.

All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by two (2) ranks.

And yes, I can and will justify these assuming they aren't shot down by the time I am next online. As my ending note, I will say that I will not be at all surprised if I am the only one that feels this way, but this has been irking me for a while, so I figured I would pull it up for discussion and see what comes of it.

 

[tavok]

Yeah, I too was surprised at how bad of a signature item this is when I recently checked the description for Mulan's TLR. I mean, it is a great item for Skill Link mons, but it isn't even touched by the mons that have it as a signature item.

I think it is like this because it aims to be similar to things like Razor Claw, Razor Fang and Metal Coat as items that have an effect for all mons and add just a little something to the mons that have it as a signature. However, this doesn't work with King's Rock as (just like Gold said) these mons don't really benefit from the item at all.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I hate rivalry. Hate hate hate hate HATE it. I don't want it to be toggleable, I want a way to make it always be off. Kiesman suggested some cost of counters you can pay to "lock" an ability similar to how HAs are locked until you get a certain amount of counters. Thoughts?

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Edit: apparently I look like a blithering idiot here. While I'm not usually one to do so, I redact my statement.

I think that this idea might have potential to work, but only if managed incredibly carefully. One thing that I notice is that, of course, there will have to be a blacklist on what can and can not be locked, eg. Truant on the sloth line, or else deficit abilities are going to be completely gone, and buff random things to very strong levels.

Even then, I'm highly skeptical here. I'm not sold that this should be a thing. I welcome any attempts to connive me, but as it stands I am against it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Yeah let's wait on passing judgement on something before it's merits have even been brought up let alone discussed

 

[Mowtom]

I think that's a pretty good idea. It fits with how in-game, if you don't like an ability, you can choose a different one. Some suggestions I have for codifications:

1. It costs 5 MC to lock an ability. An ability can be unlocked for free if and only if the Pokemon has a full AC.
2. If a Pokemon has only one unlocked ability, it cannot be locked.
3. An ability cannot be unlocked mid-battle (not sure if this needs to be specified)

As far as I can tell, this covers all of the bases. Locking an ability is not particularly easy, but isn't difficult, Slakoth/Slaking/Regigigas/Archen/Archeops can't lock their Traits (but Durant can), and nobody can do something silly like bringing a Rivalry-locked Nidoking, seeing the opposing team has only males, and unlocking it.

Thoughts?

 

[Its_A_Random]

An alternative is to just play one ability but that is beside the point since only zarator and Engineer in their gyms as well as facility RP's play one ability. That said I do not have much of a problem with the above proposal though I do not see much of a use for it outside of removing Rivalry since Moody is always a Hidden Ability but that is not a big enough issue to say no to it (Are there any other abilities that might see benefit in being locked?).

EDIT: Locking Weak Armour on Aurumoth seems like an okay decision as well since you are stuck with it on for a round while it is in disguise...

As far as King's Rock is concerned, the suggested changes are fine and we are fine with letting the public discuss for now but if the discussion gets out of hand, we might end up having to call Buff Culture and end up making an executive decision... >_>

 

[Mowtom]

You've also got things like Heavy Metal on non-mega Aggron if you hate Low Kick, but yeah it's a pretty niche thing.

EDIT: Oh oops never mind. But someone could change their mind I guess? Doesn't matter a whole lot, Rivalry is itself enough for this to happen imo

 

[Its_A_Random]

Mowtom: Heavy Metal is an exclusive Hidden Ability anyway so you do not have to unlock it. Also you would generally want it on for Head Smash and Heavy Slam, its two main STAB moves but even then, Low Kick is only an extra 4.5 DMG on regular and Mega Aggron anyway.

 

[deadfox081]

Rivalry is an ability that is in the game. It has good points and bad points. Just either suck it up or play with less abilities.

 

[Mowtom]

Rivalry is an ability that is in the game. It has good points and bad points. Just either suck it up or play with less abilities.

The thing is that ingame, you can choose to use (say) a Mold Breaker Haxorus instead of a Rivalry Haxorus if you think Rivalry is more trouble than it's worth. In ASB, there's no way to do that.

 

[deadfox081]

In-game you also can't have Skill Link Technician Cinccinno but I don't hear anybody suggesting removing that option from ASB. I don't want to see this game power creep into only having the best option of everything for everyone. Pokemon often have drawbacks in typing, ability, movepool etc, its just part of the trade off.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

In-game you also can't have Skill Link Technician Cinccinno but I don't hear anybody suggesting removing that option from ASB. I don't want to see this game power creep into only having the best option of everything for everyone. Pokemon often have drawbacks in typing, ability, movepool etc, its just part of the trade off.

Is the tradeoff not obvious? Rivalry offers both an advantage of +2 and a disadvantage of -2. If the ability is locked both options are nonexistant. In both instances the overall advantage is +/- 0.

You're trading off 50% power boost and 50% power reduction for the certainty of knowing what damage you'll be doing in a given scenario.

I challenge you to argue this is a power creep proposal (which it certainly was not proposed as!) given that fact.

 

[TSRD]

I don't see why this needs to be a thing. Play with less abilities and then this happens naturally. Aka what Deadfox said in his initial post.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Sending this to a discussion before other proposals get buried.

That does not mean a vote will happen and something will change though.

 

[Dogfish44]

Can we discus Consumable Items? They're woefully lacking in enforcement of profile deductions etc., and with the release of Weakness Policy we now have an infinite use consumable item. I'd like to discus extending this to berries and other consumables =\