Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Orcinus Duo]

Guys, this is not a difficult concept to grasp.

I wish to order
counter-counter
If not HJK then surf

because of contradicting subs.

My order is the exact same as
Surf-surf
If HJK then counter

Exactly the same.

Exactly

the same.

 

[Dogfish44]

the order the second option

problem solved

I do believe you've missed the original issue of conflicting subs in brawls, hence the idea/request of this being possible - and ultimately the same effect.

 

[deadfox081]

Brawls are inherently chaotic and difficult to deal with substitutions in. Luckily they are also rare and a niche part of our game. We're not going to break the sub rules for them, conflicting subs being ignored is part of the challenge in them so basically just deal with it.

 

[Orcinus Duo]

I'm sorry, but I don't see what's logical about these sub rules. I'm ordering the same thing, just phrased differently...how is one form legal, and the other form not?

Oh or are we too lazy to change it? Don't get me wrong, that's a passable reason and I accept it I guess.

But unless you just haven't been reading, I don't see how you could say that I'm "breaking the sub rules"

 

[deadfox081]

In this particular example it may be the case that your exact substitution could be rephrased into a legal substitution.

However setting a precedent to allow "IF NOT X" substitutions leaves it open for so many illegal sets of actions and subs it's not funny.

 

[Orcinus Duo]

Such as, deadfox?

If "IF X" substitution is legal, "IF NOT X" should also be legal

I struggle to think of a counterexample.

 

[Alchemator]

The difference is:

• "If x" initiates a change based on the move you're targeting.
• "If not x" initiates a change based on all of the moves you aren't targeting.

I believe the issue that people are taking with "If not x" is due to the idea of a 'phantom move' -- that is, your orders change based on a factor which doesn't actually exist.

Perhaps this has made things even more complicated. Oh well.

 

[Orcinus Duo]

I'm confused. Aren't you still splitting up into the same two subsets of orders?

I'm sorry guys you lost me.

 

[Aweshucks]

We're following strictly in-game mechanics here

wait... I thought the whole point of ASB was to emulate the anime rather than the games.

on that note, I've noticed something that I feel is conflicting about metal burst in the anime rather than the game mechanics. In the games, it's similar to counter/mirror coat, except it's 0 priority and reflects both types of damage, but only works if used after the opponent. In the anime (and the in-game description) however, the user conjures up a ball of energy that absorbs the damage (the user still gets hurt obviously) which then is fired back at the opponent. This doesn't exactly make sense with the way it works currently. Wouldn't the user have to go first to set up the ball of energy and then last to fire it back? I suggest the first part to be +1 or 0 priority and the last to be -1 priority, which is still easily countered, so it isn't too OP. Am I saying this because it would make Kitsunoh better? No, that's ridiculous. In all seriousness though, it just makes sense

 

[Gerard]

The main downside of Metal Burst is that you're can only counter attacks you're slower than, thus making anything slower than you able to abuse it, if that was made like you suggest then you can just counter all damage relased at you and come out on top, for example a taunted mon can't do a thing to scape Metal Burst outside of moves like Dragon Tail or Comboes

Still though I see no problem in making the "first part" of metal burst +6 priority while leaving the "countering part" at 0

 

[Leethoof]

I see no reason to change metal burst, as its self-proclaimed premier user. Its sole purpose is to nom up subs, and it does that just fine. Its not underpowered, its not overpowered, theres no reason to change it. Also, kit has trick room for a reason.

 

[Deck Knight]

wait... I thought the whole point of ASB was to emulate the anime rather than the games.

on that note, I've noticed something that I feel is conflicting about metal burst in the anime rather than the game mechanics. In the games, it's similar to counter/mirror coat, except it's 0 priority and reflects both types of damage, but only works if used after the opponent. In the anime (and the in-game description) however, the user conjures up a ball of energy that absorbs the damage (the user still gets hurt obviously) which then is fired back at the opponent. This doesn't exactly make sense with the way it works currently. Wouldn't the user have to go first to set up the ball of energy and then last to fire it back? I suggest the first part to be +1 or 0 priority and the last to be -1 priority, which is still easily countered, so it isn't too OP. Am I saying this because it would make Kitsunoh better? No, that's ridiculous. In all seriousness though, it just makes sense

Most of the time the reason move clones get changes is to differentiate them from each other, which is why Barrier, Acid Armor, and Iron Defense all have different qualities, most of which only activate the action they are first used and require the user to be faster - Difficult since most of the users of those moves are slow, and those that aren't have other weaknesses.

In general while we try to emulate the Anime and do have to make tweaks for percentage effects like Leech Seed, partial trapping damage, status, etc. We stick to mechanics people are already familiar with for moves. The Anime has mentioned recoil damage on Brave Bird and Volt Tackle, but they don't peg it down to X% recoil for obvious reasons it makes no sense in that setting.


RE: IF NOT X Substitutions:

Considering we've added category substitutions I think its reasonable to allow these. Category substitutions already allow for a substitution to effect multiple moves. Illegal or conflicting substitutions would still be nullified. The best way to use IF NOT X would be to use it like:

Counter ~ Head Smash ~ Counter
IF X DOES NOT use Damaging Fighting moves, Replace Counter with Heavy Slam and move actions back.

It's not a very good substitution, but it is flexible in that it only applies to Damaging Fighting Moves. It's near twin would be: "Heavy Slam ~ Head Smash ~ Heavy Slam, IF X uses Damaging Fighting Moves, replace Heavy Slam with Counter and move back actions.

EXCEPT: The first substitution has slightly more value if it's modified that it only moves attacks back the first time, So say a Weavile using Whirlpool followed by Dynamicpunch would trigger Heavy Slam followed by Counter, with Head Smash as a third action rather than Heavy Slam followed by Head Smash with a second Heavy Slam afterward..

KOC:

The system was initially implemented to aid Pokemon who weren't that great in a direct fight but could set up hazards / status etc. Like Beedrill. It's been a long time though and I think it's more intuitive to just have the last Pokemon that damaged the Pokemon gain the KOC. KO's from suicidal attacks (Final Gambit / Memento / Explosion / Recoil Attacks) would give KOC to the target of the suicide attack. I think that would be a less convoluted way to handle it.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Would anyone be open to a complete rewrite of the CAP ASB Guide? It's criminally outdated, talks in circles, and really only teaches people how to play, not how to play well.

I'm thinking something like:

1. Vision (mission statement and foreword, also "how to use this guide")
2. What am I looking at? (What is an ASB League?)
3. IRC (it's important that this come much sooner! People could hop on IRC while they read the guide, and ask questions as they proceed!)
4. Differences from Cartridge Play
5. Getting Started (choosing starters and registering)
6. The CAP ASB Dictionary (a whirlwind tour of terms and battling structure)
7. How to Battle At All (basic battling procedure and some helpful rules of thumb)
8. Sweet Victory and Sour Defeat (Prize Claiming and what to do after a battle in general)
9. Hey, I want UC too! (Reffing! Advice on being a rapid ref and keeping short but effective flavor)
10. They're Fully Evolved! (More advanced battling techniques for such places as Battle Facilities)
11. The Lonely Figure on the Mountain (getting in to opponent's heads and other high-level advice for taking on Gyms, TLRs, and tournament matches.)

Primarily, I want to make this a sort of Hitchhiker's Guide to CAP ASB. A new player would be referencing this right up to their first Gym challenge, or further. A sort of strategy guide, if you prefer to think of it as such.

EDIT: Okay, Deck has decreed this so on IRC. I guess I'll get writing?

 

[Orcinus Duo]

Oh wait, I'm sorry Deck and everyone else, I've figured out a way to abuse that
Counter-counter-counter
If NOT damaging fighting move,
AND surf, then blah
AND thunderbolt, then blah
Etc
Basically, the "AND"s, which are legal (version of the same sub) allow for people to sub for multiple moves very effectively.

At least I think that's legal?

 

[EndQuote]

The And Clauses would count as additional move substitutions, right?

 

[Gerard]

You get one AND, period

And (no pun intended) you can't combine other groups between each other (for example you can't sub for Damaging Fighting Moves & Damaging Ground Moves within the same sub) so there's not a lot to worry about there

 

[Its_A_Random]

Actually, on the AND's...
[BOX]09:23:15: <iar> "IF Gliscor uses Protect A1 AND you are not Taunted, use Taunt on Sableye." is two substitutions, if I am not mistaken
09:23:30: <SevenDeadlySins> no
09:23:32: <SevenDeadlySins> it's one
09:23:38: <LionHeart> what?
09:23:39: <LionHeart> is it
09:23:43: <iar> Why
09:23:58: <SevenDeadlySins> because you can cram as much shit in your one if clause as you want
09:24:01: <SevenDeadlySins> it could be like
09:24:10: <LionHeart> oh holy fuck this com is comfy, it's nice and warm
09:24:23: iar brings up Atheno's Substitutions
09:24:27: <SevenDeadlySins> "IF Gliscor uses Protect A1 AND you are not taunted AND your opponent has a custom sprite AND it's a tuesday
09:24:38: <SevenDeadlySins> that'd be one sub[/BOX]

Yeah...

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Oh wait, I'm sorry Deck and everyone else, I've figured out a way to abuse that
Counter-counter-counter
If NOT damaging fighting move,
AND surf, then blah
AND thunderbolt, then blah
Etc
Basically, the "AND"s, which are legal (version of the same sub) allow for people to sub for multiple moves very effectively.

At least I think that's legal?

Wrong.

Your use of AND splits the substitution into several sub-substitutions. The acceptable use of AND is a clause that limits the original clause, such as in SDS' example that IAR quoted above.

 

[Objection]

KOC:

The system was initially implemented to aid Pokemon who weren't that great in a direct fight but could set up hazards / status etc. Like Beedrill. It's been a long time though and I think it's more intuitive to just have the last Pokemon that damaged the Pokemon gain the KOC. KO's from suicidal attacks (Final Gambit / Memento / Explosion / Recoil Attacks) would give KOC to the target of the suicide attack. I think that would be a less convoluted way to handle it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the last pokemon that damaged the pokemon". Does that include stuff like Toxic damage? Because, imo, it should do.

Plus, I don't see how mons that could set up hazards/status/whatever but not deal direct damage benefit from the current system, since the current system requires direct damage to get KOC.

 

[Gerard]

Little Proposal Rant

I think some Items should receive a welcomed boost since they're either overshadowed by other, many times better items, or just plain unused.

Expert Belt & the Elemental Objects that share your STAB are about the only things you'll even need in most cases, and between the 2/3 of them you're very likely to overshadow virtually every item in 1v1

Muscle Band: Increases the Base Attack Power of all physical attacks used by the Pokemon by one and a half (1.5).

Wise Glasses: Increases the Base Attack Power of all special attacks used by the Pokemon by one and a half (1.5).

Originally proposed by Lou I think this is great considering the boost if weaker that expert belt in most cases, it's better in doubles and triples but still not overpowered

Metronome: Increases the Base Attack Power dealt by consecutive uses of attacks after their first use by one (1) and one (1) more for each additional use up to a maximum of ten (10) uses (Ex. An attack used twice has +2 BAP, thrice +3, etc.). Attacks used consecutively incurre in only half the normal repeated move energy cost.

Nobody uses this, and it's power increase it's really weak considering the Choice Items boosts (a round of metronome barely increases the damage output by 3 BAP, while a Choiced item raises it by 4.5 at minimum, likely 9), the energy drain is likely gonna kill you before you KO the opposing mon, this way you at least have a good reason to use the item aside of using rollout/ice ball/etc...

Choice Scarf: Increases the Speed of the Pokemon by 75% (x1.75) and increases base move accuracy by twenty-five (25). The Pokemon is allowed to choose a new move at the beginning of every round, but is forced to use that move for all actions of that round without incurring the repeated move energy cost. The Pokemon is so committed to its attack once it's been successfully ordered that no attack used by the opponent can prevent it from using the chosen attack in that round. Choice-locked Pokemon are immune to the effects of Encore.

I think this is a logical boost considering in-game Choice Scarf it's the same as a +1 Spe, which in here it's a x1.75 bonus, at least it gives some slower pokes a somethimes worth boost (ex. base 60 mons manages to outspeed base 100 mons)

Macho Brace: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and increases the stage-boost of all boosting moves by one (1). Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Weight: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and increases the HP gain and energy cost of recovery moves by 50% (x1.5). Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Bracer: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and doubles (x2) the stage-boost of Attack-boosting moves. Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Belt: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and doubles (x2) the stage-boost of Defense-boosting moves. Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Lens: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and doubles (x2) the stage-boost of Special Attack-boosting moves. Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Band: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and doubles (x2) the stage-boost of Special Defense-boosting moves. Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Power Anklet: Reduces the Pokemon's Speed by 50% (x0.5), rounded down, and triples (x3) the stage-boost of Speed-boosting moves. Increases the Pokemon's final Weight Class by one (1).

Nothing to say here, but a discount on these would be pretty welcomed considering stat up moves are rarely used outside a few single abusers (and those aren't exactly common either), At 10 CC this items would gain at least a few buyers (has anyone actually bought one of this?)

 

[Ullar]

I agree with Gerard's proposal. Heck, if it goes through, I might get me a Power Bracer.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

I would like to propose the item Soothe Bell for ASB

Soothe Bell: Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised.

Cost 8 | Affected Pokemon: Golbat, Crobat, Chansey, Blissey, Eevee, Espeon, Umbreon, Pichu, Pikachu, Cleffa, Clefairy, Igglybuff, Jigglypuff, Togepi, Togetic, Azurill, Marill, Budew, Roselia, Buneary, Lopunny, Chingling, Chimecho, Muchlax, Snorlax, Riolu, Lucario, Woobat, Swoobat, Swadloon, Leavanny

It's basically Link Cable for mons that evolve via happiness.

On IRC it's already been discused that it might break some mons (namely lucario and snorlax) but these pokemon lose the ability to use another item, which balances it out. I just want to get this out there as another (not broken) option for these mons!

(also if you're not sold on the non-brokenness, look at gengar, he's not broken by any means with link cable!)

Support/comments appreciated!

 

[Gemini Taurus]

Double Posting like a pro to see people's thoughts...

Another option for Soothe bell (as discussed on IRC) would be to allow it to work for the 3rd stages of some evolutions (like Azumarill, Roserade, Togekiss etc.) It doesnt break them and doesnt HAVE to be added but I'd just like to get peoples thoughts on the matter

 

[Ullar]

Jussayin, I like this idea too. Woo.

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I like this, and think it should work for 3rd stages too.