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- Thread starter MeteorMiss
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Rain and sun are very much worth the item slot. Perhaps not sandstorm and hail, since they don't modify the damage of moves, like the other two.
I was arround for DPP though, and while you didn't see them to the same frequency now, rain and sun teams were present, and rain was certainly a potent threat when executed properly.
But yes, there is a certain lack of decent rapid spinners. Same goes for spin blockers too, although to a lesser extent. Outside Gengar and jellicent, there are hardly any decent blockers.
I was arround for DPP though, and while you didn't see them to the same frequency now, rain and sun teams were present, and rain was certainly a potent threat when executed properly.
But yes, there is a certain lack of decent rapid spinners. Same goes for spin blockers too, although to a lesser extent. Outside Gengar and jellicent, there are hardly any decent blockers.
No, rain and sun teams in DPP OU were extremely rare, I have never seen a serious rain team in DPP OU except mine, and I saw only a sun team.
I tried myself in that gen a hypper offensive rain team, which had the 3 typical and most powerful rain sweepers Kabutops, Ludicolo and Kingdra.
Since it was an HO, it relied a lot on prediction, but it worked well, specially since DPP is full of HO weatherless teams. But the omnipresence of Tyranitar made it difficult to succed, since Tyranitar can come on a Revenge Kill and take away the weather. Hippowdon was annoying but no much, and Abomasnow was a nightmare.
Imagine that with infinite rain, that's why I say Swift Swim+infinite rain is maybe the most broken combination in the game.
Sun in DPP OU I think it was inferior to rain, since Growth sucked(always a +1 Sp. Att) and any pokemon has Fire STAB and Chrollophyll, also the presence of Tyranitar/Hippowdon and Abomasnow made difficult to succed.
Completely agree about Spinners and AntiSpinner, hope Game Freak create or a Rapid Spin tutor or more viable pokes with the move and more and better AntiSpinners(specially one which can trully counter Starmie in Rain)
just like Swift Swim complex ban killed golduck and beartric? your point is completely moot.
It is my opinion that permanent weather has been a major contributor to the downfall of OU as a fun metagame, in BW especially but also in DPP. Weather is just too powerful for how easy it is to set up and - more importantly - how difficult it is to stop without using one of only a small few pokemon. The only counter to permanent weather is more permanent weather =/
hmm... Stoutland is actually kinda viable, as is Sandslash. So the choices were lose Excadrill, who could have been used as an effective spinner, or lose both Sandslash's and Stoutland's niches in this meta. And of course we can't ban Excadrill + Sand Rush + Sand Stream, that's ridiculous. Looking at it this way, I guess banning Excadrill was the best way to go, since we want to have as little of an effect as possible, and Stoutland is hardly broken.
Still, I'll be waiting for new Rapid Spinners in X+Y. Hopefully Game Freak doesn't give us another Delibird.
I think that the most healthy complex ban you could throw was Exca + Sand Rush, but that's a kind of complex ban that has never been practiced -complex bans have been ignored altogether barring SS + Drizzle-. Obviously SS + Drizzle was a bigger problem that losing one of the four decent spinners in the game, but my personal conviction is that if you had started micromanaging the format with complex bans, you may as well go all the way. I'm not saying complex banning something like Garchomp + Sand Veil to keep Encore Cacturne in the lower tiers, but things that could actually improve the meta, this change was virtually applied by using a regular ban. Excadrill in the other hand couldn't join the fray without one, and the meta would be likely healthier with it -a single spinner wouldn't stop it to be a broken meta I'm afraid-. As a rule of thumb, complex bans could be used if the gain was enough, and if no regular ban could mimick that effect. Historically, these kind of bans would be far in between.
Aldaron's proposal was a very weird complex ban, it really aimed to micromanage the amount of viable pokes out there, by allowing the Swift Swimmers to exist in a counter-weather capacity. But that's the only difference with straight up banning Swift Swim, so the reasoning behind the complex ban is that Swift Swim was the problem, and Drizzle was more or less left alone. Looking foward, this Complex Ban added pretty minimal esthetical changes to the format, Swim Swimmers exist but they are niche. My argument is that doing such a complex ban for the sake of a few niche pokemon is as worthy as adding Excadrill into the meta. The only really position against this is that Pokemon + Ability bans are seen as a potentially dangerous precedent, as people would want to ban certain random combinations such as Speed Boost Blaziken. But of course, such unban doesn't apply to our set of mind because Blaze Blaziken unbanned hardly deserves a mention in the format, it's not nearly the inclusion that Swift Swim users or Excadrill would ever be.
If you're against complex bans by principle, then Aldaron's proposal shouldn't exist as an exception either. Ban Swift Swim instead, or go ahead and consider banning Drizzle.
Tiering indicates usage, not how viable they are. Stoutland can be very threatening under the Sand. Keep in mind, Celebi has been UU before but it's extremely useful. Tiering is used for, well, different metas as well as a sort of guideline.
We must ban weathers (rain and sun) because the metagame is too closed. Without weathers, it's so difficult to win (not impossible) against rain abuser and sun abuser.
The only weathers shouldn't be ban are SS and hail because they aren't broken, no unstoppable sand abuser (Stoutland, Sandslash, Landorus aren't broken) and hail is useless.
Rains are broken because of water stabb, 100% accuracy of thunder and hurricane (often stabb by their users). Rain abuser like Keldeo are broken under the rain.
And sun? Because without rain, there will be too many sun and chlorophyll sweeper are broken like Venusaur.
So, let's suspect all weathers, go vote to see what type of weathers must ban and create non weather metagame.
The only weathers shouldn't be ban are SS and hail because they aren't broken, no unstoppable sand abuser (Stoutland, Sandslash, Landorus aren't broken) and hail is useless.
Rains are broken because of water stabb, 100% accuracy of thunder and hurricane (often stabb by their users). Rain abuser like Keldeo are broken under the rain.
And sun? Because without rain, there will be too many sun and chlorophyll sweeper are broken like Venusaur.
So, let's suspect all weathers, go vote to see what type of weathers must ban and create non weather metagame.
I think he tried to say that, while SS Kingdra and SR Exca were threats of the same approximate same caliber, SS Ludicolo, Omastar and Kabutops were much bigger threats than Sandslash and Stoutland. Therefore, banning Sand Rush would be "overbanning", while banning Kingdra only would be "underbanning".
Not exactly, but close.
I don't know exactly the reason why SS+Drizzle was banned instead of doing other things. As far as I know, it was done because it was the the simplest option. Banishing Ludicolo, Kingdra, Omastar, Kabutops, even Qwilfish.... to Ubers is too crazy, because that pokemon are not broken by themselves, they are broken(in OU) with Drizzle.
Even, in Ubers, that mons couldn't be used in lower tiers, when no one doubts that they don't abuse.
Banning SS is not good, disallows the option to use SS pokes with the move Rain Dance in OU.
Banning SS in Ludicolo, Kingdra, Omastar, Kabutops.... + Drizzle in OU would be a too complex ban. However it would be interesting, but the Smogon's policy is to keep bans as simple as possible.
I think the "simplest" option (apart from banning Politoed or Drizzle) would've been to ban the strongest Swift Swimmers one at a time until it was no longer broken, but they didn't do that because people didn't like the idea of banning the likes of Kabutops to Ubers (arguements like "You can't ban such a weak Pokemon just because of rain" were being thrown about), and also it could've taken a long time.
The SS+Drizzle was like a middle-ground situation. The community as a whole couldn't agree on what to do, but that complex ban was the one which would get least opposition.
Hopefully next generation we won't have to do any bans like that.
People seriously underestimate Hail. There's something to be said for making sure things like Dugtrio, Terrakion, and Skarmory don't get two the turns they expect because their sturdy/sashes are broken. Not only that, but Sub Roost Kyurem absolutely wrecks the rare stall teams. Abamasnow is fantastic with a Choice Scarf except for the lackluster base speed. But other than that, so few people prepare for hail teams that a decently made one can breeze right through most teams in OU.
That being said, it certainly isn't broken or anything. People just need to respect it some more. Don't knock it till you try it.
That being said, it certainly isn't broken or anything. People just need to respect it some more. Don't knock it till you try it.
IMHO: I believe rain is in fact semi-broken. Or at least has too strong effect on the meta. Whether you're surfing on the wave, or focusing an entire team on trying to hold it back.
Why? Let's look at the facts behind it.
These are all arguably anecdotal evidences. But there's a strong truth behind them. These complaints aren't from people using the cookie-cutter teams. Its from those who are trying to make weather-less teams and can't help but notice the immense power creep given by weather; most noticeably but not limited to: RAIN.
Tl;dr: Teambuilding has become vague. Rain is too strong, imo, and many others.
Why? Let's look at the facts behind it.
- Never before had previous gen analyses included (maximize SpDef to be 2HKO'd by rain boosted Keldeo's Hydro pump)
- Even after the banning of SS, we are still getting complaints about it being OP. We haven't even banned the Speed Boost abilities for the other perma-weather, and if we did, I'm sure we'd get complaints about them not even being viable.
- Moves like Thunder and Hurricane are to powerful to be 100 percent accurate for an entirety of a match. That's it.
- Having to carry Max SpD water Pokemon and at times even two scarfers to combat a Rain Team is kinda where we crossed the line.
- Having to bring your own weather to the field to sort of counter the other team's effectiveness.
These are all arguably anecdotal evidences. But there's a strong truth behind them. These complaints aren't from people using the cookie-cutter teams. Its from those who are trying to make weather-less teams and can't help but notice the immense power creep given by weather; most noticeably but not limited to: RAIN.
Tl;dr: Teambuilding has become vague. Rain is too strong, imo, and many others.
THIS.
I am still rather new to competitive Pokemon, but I have been playing the games since RBY. I have known about pretty much all of the mechanics for about five years. I spent over two years lurking on Smogon before I decided to actually try competitive Pokemon. And this is what I've found of my teambuilding abilities:
Non-Deo-D weatherless teams are impossible for me to build. I simply cannot put together a weatherless team that can even stand a chance against all the common team archetypes. For example, I might be able to cover rain and sand, but I am then left helpless against sun and extremely disadvantaged against Deo-D HO.
The thing is that I have no real room to learn how to build good weatherless teams, because my attempts are always flattened by some common type of team. Someone with more experience can build good weatherless teams, but newer players like myself lack, and cannot get, the experience needed with weatherless teams to build good weatherless teams. Sure, experienced players may be able to do just fine in this metagame, but inexperienced players are summarily crushed when they try to be creative.
Sure, you learn more from losing than from winning, but all I've been able to learn from my losses with weatherless teams is that weather teams can easily crush most weatherless teams.
I wouldn't consider the teams I see now to be actual true hail teams. Its more like "slap Abamosnow here, because fuck rain."
I don't understand how some people can be saying that weather limits diversity, have you looked at OU lately? The OU tier is the biggest that it ever has been with over 50 pokemon. If you say OU is stagnate and boring you are not looking at the facts.
SubRoost Kyurem in general is pretty beast, it doesn't need hail at all to be effective. Meanwhile, you could replace Abomasnow with a Poke with Stealth Rock and have the same effects on Focus Sash Pokes, and Scarf Abomasnow is still not as fast as it would like to be, still loses %25 of its health by switching into Stealth Rock, and has base 92 offences. Its no wonder why Hail isn't used more; Abomasnow is pretty bad. The only set I think is worth it is the SubSeed set. You can heal off the damage you take from switching in, and Abomasnow can help heal its teammates with Leach Seed and tank hits with its unique typing, so it isn't dead weight.
There were 493 Pokémon in Gen IV, and 48 of them were OU. There are 649 Pokémon in Gen V, and 52 of them are OU. Stop twisting the numbers. As I said in the General Metagame Discussion Thread, even if "more Pokémon" are made viable, we don't even see them because shit like Jirachi and Venusaur are made incredibly powerful and there is zero reason to use all these Pokémon that weather made "viable" over them. The only people who use them are players who don't know any better (such as Infernape's continued placement in OU) and players who are tired of the same Politoed-Jirachi-Tentacruel-Ferrothorn-Keldeo-Torn-T teams (such as myself).
I wasn't around for BW1 so I have no idea what Drizzle+Swift Swim was like. I personally think Sun+Chlorophyll is way more OP than Drizzle Politoad (a shit Pokemon) and a few water types on a team. Not to mention that a lot of would-be Fire counters become Fire Type weak in the sun.
Since that doesn't seem to be a relevant issue for most people though might as well just keep things the same. Water isn't too great. Unless people start fucking around with Hypnosis Politoed and getting lucky in which case I'd probably get really salty and say just ban weather.
Since that doesn't seem to be a relevant issue for most people though might as well just keep things the same. Water isn't too great. Unless people start fucking around with Hypnosis Politoed and getting lucky in which case I'd probably get really salty and say just ban weather.
I can't even count how many times my match up was against a Politoed/Jirachi/Tentacruel/Ferrothorn/Keldeo/Torn-T before Torn-T was banned. Now its just the same team with someone else taking Torn-T's spot. It's not even about the team being difficult since I've fought it so many times its just damn boring to fight the same cookie cutter team since its so easy to use.
That too, but that's more a problem for the players and not tiering policy, unfortunately. So long as Suspect Tests continue to be player-run, we can at least try to shape the metagame as best we can.
True though I do find my weatherless teams at a distinct disadvantage since if my team can handle rain I instead get floored by Sun and Sand. I have a hard time finding a weatherless balance that can handle all the weathers without out one totally smashing out my teeth.
I share a similar story to this, considering I have [almost] 30 posts (I started lurking here towards the end of generation IV).
It takes sheer talent/knowledge to build a weatherless team that can compete against all other playstyles at once, whereas rain teams just need Politoed, Torn-T, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, and Rotom-W to wreak havoc just about anywhere.
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