Azumarill

[Gary]

I agree with jc. Analysis are like helpful recommendations that give players keen insight on a specific Pokemon in the metagame, but they're definitely not forcing people to follow them or are they always completely accurate because of how the meta constantly adapts. I personally only run 44 Speed on Rotom-W when my team lacks any sort of check to Belly Drum Azumarill, otherwise I'm always running full defensive investment with slightly less Speed IVs to get the slower Volt Switch off opposing Rotom match ups, which is extremely helpful in those situations. Without full investment, Rotom-W just loses to Mega Pinsir and Talonflame that much easier. I always use Jolly Max Speed on BD Azumarill, and most of the Rotom-W I run into on the upper ladder are all using max defensive unless their team is just crushed by BD Azumarill without it. I don't understand why anyone in the right mind would want to outrun Landorus-T with Rotom-W, because what can it do to Rotom-W anyway other than U-turn out? Only a fool would U-turn out on Rotom-W if everyone was running Speed to outspeed it.

So all in all, I think BD Azumarill should be Jolly max Speed. Not all Rotom-W are going to run Speed to outspeed it all the time simply because it's on the analysis, and OHKOing the more common variants with Play Rough is worth it.

 

[alexwolf]

I am with you Gary, and i don't think that defensive Rotom-W needs 44 Spe EVs, but this means that the EV spread of defensive Rotom-W should change, in which case i would agree with using max Speed and Jolly on Azumarill. So, it is a matter of what is best and not a matter of what's used more, it's just that defensive Rotom-W happened to have a not optimal EV spread.

 

[skies]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 486-573 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Um, you mention it OHKOes Blissey, but?
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 486-573 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's only a 6.3% chance?

 

[Gary]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 486-573 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Um, you mention it OHKOes Blissey, but?
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 486-573 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's only a 6.3% chance?

Thanks for reminding me about that awful Speed bechmark. CB is now running 92 Speed for uninvested T-tar, and it also outpaces base 60s in general, which is always nice.

Also slashed Knock Off before PuP on AV set because Knock Off has so much more utility and PuP is pretty situational, but still works. Waterfall shouldn't be slashed with anything, because Azumarill needs a better Water-type STAB to use other than just the weak asf Aqua Jet so it's not laughed at by Hippo.

 

[alexwolf]

Greninja, Kingdra, Mega Lucario, Hydreigon, Landorus, Keldeo, Genesect, Starmie, Mega Charizard Y, and Manaphy

Remove, Mega Lucario, Hydreigon, Genesect, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy, and Starmie. Two of them are banned, Hydreigon is not relevant at all, Mega Charizard and Starmie have a big chance to 2HKO with Fire Blast + Solarbeam and Analytic LO Hydro Pump + Psyshock respectively after SR, and Manaphy does 73% damage minimum with +3 Lefties Timid Energy Ball, the weakest TG set you will encounter, and Azumarill doesn't even come close to 2HKO with Play Rough + Aqua Jet, even after SR.

Also, i would remove the bit about AV Azumarill doing particularly well vs rain teams, as while Azumarill is in general is useful vs rain, the other sets are way more useful vs rain teams, gaining immense wallbreaking and sweeping potential. On the other hand, this set is easily shut down by common defensive Pokemon found on rain teams, such as Tentacruel and Ferrothorn, and still struggles to switch into or check Pokemon such as Specs Keldeo, CM Manaphy, Torn-T, SD Kabutops (+2 SE OHKOes), Crawdaunt, Thundurus, and LO Starmie, aka most offensive Pokemon found on rain teams.

 

[Gary]

Remove, Mega Lucario, Hydreigon, Genesect, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy, and Starmie. Two of them are banned, Hydreigon is not relevant at all, Mega Charizard and Starmie have a big chance to 2HKO with Fire Blast + Solarbeam and Analytic LO Hydro Pump + Psyshock respectively after SR, and Manaphy does 73% damage minimum with +3 Lefties Timid Energy Ball, the weakest TG set you will encounter, and Azumarill doesn't even come close to 2HKO with Play Rough + Aqua Jet, even after SR.

Also, i would remove the bit about AV Azumarill doing particularly well vs rain teams, as while Azumarill is in general is useful vs rain, the other sets are way more useful vs rain teams, gaining immense wallbreaking and sweeping potential. On the other hand, this set is easily shut down by common defensive Pokemon found on rain teams, such as Tentacruel and Ferrothorn, and still struggles to switch into or check Pokemon such as Specs Keldeo, CM Manaphy, Torn-T, SD Kabutops (+2 SE OHKOes), Crawdaunt, Thundurus, and LO Starmie, aka most offensive Pokemon found on rain teams.

I'll remove most of what you said, but I don't agree with that Azumarill isn't a reliable check to Specs Keldeo. Although it can't reliable switch into a Specs Secret Sword multiple times, AV is taking absolutely nothing from Hydro Pump, especially outside of rain. This makes it an absolutely outstanding check, even in the rain, so I don't really see where you're coming from with that to be honest. So yes, it's a decent switch into Specs, and it's one of the best checks to it in OU. Unless you're a dumb piece of shit and let your opponent get up 3 layers of Spikes and Stealth Rock, Azumarill can check Specs Keldeo multiple times with ease, in or out of rain.

 

[alexwolf]

I was taking about Specs Keldeo in rain, from which you can barely take two hits with SR in play. However, definitely mention Specs Keldeo outside of rain as a Pokemon that AV Azumarill checks very well.

 

[Subject 18]

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Rain: 123-146 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Its a three hit KO. Keldeo dies to a Play Rough. Am I missing something?

Edit: Even with SR in play, Azumarill switches in and its at 88% health. Keldeo Hydro Pumps on the switch and does 40%. Azumarill is now at 48%, it can take one more and kill off Keldeo with a Play Rough. Keldeo needs SR + spikes to be able to 2HKO in the rain. I don't see how this isn't a viable check/counter.

 

[alexwolf]

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Rain: 123-146 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Its a three hit KO. Keldeo dies to a Play Rough. Am I missing something?

You are not missing anything, but this is nothing more than a one-time check. Point being, AV Azumarill is not that good against rain teams in comparison to its other two sets.

 

[Jaiho]

I was taking about Specs Keldeo in rain, from which you can barely take two hits with SR in play. However, definitely mention Specs Keldeo outside of rain as a Pokemon that AV Azumarill checks very well.

Honestly, by that logic, nothing at all checks Specs Keldeo in the rain that doesn't have a water immunity.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Rain: 161-189 (50.4 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There goes 2 of the best Keldeo switchins

 

[alexwolf]

Honestly, by that logic, nothing at all checks Specs Keldeo in the rain that doesn't have a water immunity.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Rain: 161-189 (50.4 - 59.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There goes 2 of the best Keldeo switchins

Latias is faster, can OHKO with Psyshock, and has Roost. Good checks to Specs Keldeo in rain are AV Tangrowth, Lati@s, SpD Celebi, SpD Trevnant, and SpD Tentacruel. Why are we even talking about this though?

 

[user php]

Hey, I'm not sure if this is important or not, but, in the moves section of the Choice Band Set, there are the following two sentences:

"Knock Off can smack predicted switch-ins such as Gourgeist and Celebi and dispose of their item"

and a couple of sentences later in the next paragraph (the last paragraph of the Moves Section for CB Set)

"Knock Off can smack predicted switch-ins such as Gourgeist and dispose of their item, but it's not the best move to be locked into.:

It seems really repetitive, don't know if that is an issue or not however, but regardless, its sounds awkward.

 

[PurpleCordial]

Mentions of Mega Lucario and Genesect need to be removed

 

[Gary]

Mentions of Mega Lucario and Genesect need to be removed

Fixed.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I know this is done but I question the 92 Spe EVs on the CB set, it's meant to be outspeeding Tyranitar but the only Tyranitar set (that got an analysis) that it actually outspeeds is the Physically Defensive one which only takes 28 EVs to outspeed, if the goal is to outspeed base 60s then 84 or 96 EVs should probably be used (96 as base 60s tend to use 12 EVs to outspeed the same 0 speed Tyranitar, that's apparently more of a relic of last gen than something that sees use now, or 84 if the latter is seen as purely speedcreeping).

I guess my question is, what should you be aiming to outspeed on CB Azumarill?

 

[Aragorn the King]

Gary2346

A specially defensive Sap Sipper set with Scald / Toxic / Protect / Knock Off can work well on defensive teams in need of a solid counter to both Charizard forms, Dragon-, and Fighting-types. It's lack of offensive presence and reliable recovery really hurt it though, so make sure to pair it with a cleric and or a Wish passer.

Should be "its."

EDIT:

** Bulky Water-types**

Should there be a space after the asterisks? There isn't in the others.

 

[Josh Morales]

Toxicroak should absolutely be mentioned in C+C. It doesn't have an OU analysis(but it might get one), but that doesn't change the fact that it's probably the best offensive Azumarill check.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Toxicroak should absolutely be mentioned in C+C. It doesn't have an OU analysis(but it might get one), but that doesn't change the fact that it's probably the best offensive Azumarill check.

It is getting one :)

 

[Timpsu]

If we are going to make adjustments to the analysis regardless, I was wondering if the BD set should have the EVs and nature changed? It says that 252 Speed + Jolly is needed to outspeed min. Speed Rotom-W, but in Rotom-W's analysis defensive Rotom-W specifically has 44 Speed to outspeed Azumarill, so it feels a bit redundant to have all that Speed. The other benchmark that is mentioned is CB Scizor, but CB Scizor runs no Speed, so Azumarill outspeeds him with 124 Speed and Adamant nature. Bulky M-Scizor could be another benchmark, which usually runs 20 Speed, so 224 Speed with Adamant nature is needed. If there are other Pokemon that the 252 + Jolly covers then those should be mentioned, as the way I see it, Adamant nature is the better option.

 

[legs]

If we are going to make adjustments to the analysis regardless, I was wondering if the BD set should have the EVs and nature changed? It says that 252 Speed + Jolly is needed to outspeed min. Speed Rotom-W, but in Rotom-W's analysis defensive Rotom-W specifically has 44 Speed to outspeed Azumarill, so it feels a bit redundant to have all that Speed. The other benchmark that is mentioned is CB Scizor, but CB Scizor runs no Speed, so Azumarill outspeeds him with 124 Speed and Adamant nature. Bulky M-Scizor could be another benchmark, which usually runs 20 Speed, so 224 Speed with Adamant nature is needed. If there are other Pokemon that the 252 + Jolly covers then those should be mentioned, as the way I see it, Adamant nature is the better option.

that's called speed creeping which isn't allowed to be done in analyses (unless it's a hard creep, such as Landorus-T using 88 Spe to always outspeed Adamant Bisharp).

 

[Timpsu]

'kay, so the Bulky M-Scizor was speed creeping, and a bad suggestion because of that, but that wasn't the point. The point was that as the BD set stands now, it sacrifices power in order to outspeed something it most likely won't, as I see that there's no reason not to use those 44 EVs on Rotom to outspeed max. Speed Azumarill. The EVs that are not absolutely mandatory in Speed could easily be invested to HP, as to make Belly Drumming a tad easier. I noticed the discussion at the top of the page, but as I see that those 44 EVs are quite standard on Rotom-W, the BD set shouldn't encourage players to outspeed Rotom-W. Rotom-W should just be considered a hard check to Azumarill, and the EVs should be changed accordingly.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

that's called speed creeping which isn't allowed to be done in analyses (unless it's a hard creep, such as Landorus-T using 88 Spe to always outspeed Adamant Bisharp).

His point is still valid though, the primary reason for jolly azumarill was to outspeed standard Rotom-W which doesn't work for the sets of the analysis so adjusting it makes sense.

 

[Jukain]

it outruns most mega venu and slower rotoms, as well as certain other stuff like mandibuzz and ties w/ lando-t. worth it imo.

 

[Timpsu]

'kay, so even with Jukain's input, I'm still going to argue for a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed with Adamant nature, since there really is practically nothing you outspeed with Jolly nature, if we presume Rotom-W runs the required Speed investment. Actually, only 244 Speed is required to outspeed base 80's, but with full investment you outspeed 0 Speed Gyarados and Milotic, which are not really threatening (nor relevant), but I guess the few extra EVs in HP do nothing either, so might as well invest in Speed. I can really find only 3 somewhat relevant threats in OU that sit between 80 and 90 base Speed and don't generally invest in Speed, and those are Cresselia, Suicune and Deo-D. Cresselia and Suicune are hardly actual threats in OU, but Cresselia can use Thunder Wave, and Suicune has a chance to burn with Scald. Deo-D is the most OU relevant, but most of them are the standard hazard stacking types, which invest in Speed, and I've honestly not seen even one defensive Recover Deo-D while laddering, although I do admit I don't play in high ladder. The reason I would think Adamant is the most optimal is just that in order to sweep Azumarill needs all the strength it can get, and seeing as Jolly is practically redundant on the mouse, I think Adamant nature is the most optimal. Also, I don't think Azumarill should go against M-Venu in any circumstance, and against Lando-T you always click Aqua Jet anyway. Rotom-H gest blasted with Aqua Jet, and I don't think the other forms are all that relevant, even though Rotom-M has an analysis.

 

[BurningMan]

'kay, so even with Jukain's input, I'm still going to argue for a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed with Adamant nature, since there really is practically nothing you outspeed with Jolly nature, if we presume Rotom-W runs the required Speed investment. Actually, only 244 Speed is required to outspeed base 80's, but with full investment you outspeed 0 Speed Gyarados and Milotic, which are not really threatening (nor relevant), but I guess the few extra EVs in HP do nothing either, so might as well invest in Speed. I can really find only 3 somewhat relevant threats in OU that sit between 80 and 90 base Speed and don't generally invest in Speed, and those are Cresselia, Suicune and Deo-D. Cresselia and Suicune are hardly actual threats in OU, but Cresselia can use Thunder Wave, and Suicune has a chance to burn with Scald. Deo-D is the most OU relevant, but most of them are the standard hazard stacking types, which invest in Speed, and I've honestly not seen even one defensive Recover Deo-D while laddering, although I do admit I don't play in high ladder. The reason I would think Adamant is the most optimal is just that in order to sweep Azumarill needs all the strength it can get, and seeing as Jolly is practically redundant on the mouse, I think Adamant nature is the most optimal. Also, I don't think Azumarill should go against M-Venu in any circumstance, and against Lando-T you always click Aqua Jet anyway. Rotom-H gest blasted with Aqua Jet, and I don't think the other forms are all that relevant, even though Rotom-M has an analysis.

Yeah i also think that the power boost from adamant is more important and useful than sometimes outspeeding Rotom-W, because even though a lot of Rotom-W don't run these Spe EVs you never really know if it does and adamant gets you 20% more damage thanks to Huge Power which is a lot more consistent and useful because of how reliant you are on the rather weak Aqua Jet.