BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Champion Leon]

The biggest problem with Duoblade is it has really atrocious special bulk. It's a good physical wall with Evolite, but a bad special wall regardless, which leads to unfortunate calculations like these.

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 216-256 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 127-150 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Galvanize Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 247-292 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I picked those three Pokemon at semi-random (I wanted a SE coverage, resisted STAB, and neutral STAB) and they're all unboosted and assume Eviolite is intact, which it may or may not be. Adding move/item/terrain boosts or removing Eviolite makes Doublade's life incredibly difficult as a wall. Either way, its a bit too lop-sided, notably has lower base special bulk than Aegisblade, who's considered frail, and can't really cover its other end well. It's a similar problem Mega-Aggron and Regirock have, who are good on very select teams but not in general. Duoblade is probably usable on certain teams as well, but I think it'd be too niche for the VR.

If you really want to try to get it on the VR though, I STRONGLY suggest getting a couple of replays of it being used against meta-defining threats, both in its intended role and where it's forced into having to deal with junk like Psy Surge Ytwo.

Hey, I updated my set with Core Enforcer over Spikes, which handles -Ate users like Rayquaza so they cannot get the 3hko, as I use Spikes on my Illusion Gyarados.
Doublade survives a Specs Psychoo Boost from Mewtwo-Y under Psychic Terrain, disables abilities, and forces switches with its Circle Throw.

team

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Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Shore Up
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Dragon Tail

The MVP, i literally love this set I created, as it covers all of my bases, and I can block Imposter, and feign Doublade, and set-up, phaze, remove their item, and heal before they can figure out that the Fire, Ghost, Dark, and Ground Moves wont leave a dent. Self-explanatory, yet customizable based on who you chose as your final pokemon in your team lineup. An excellent switch-in for Water, Dark, Ghost, Ice, and Psychic Attacks.

Groudon (F) @ Red Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thousand Arrows
- Shift Gear
- Morning Sun

A surprise sweeper, its a neutral hit cleaner that sets-up when your foe least expects it. Morning Sun keeps its healthy, while Stealth Rocks keeps Rayquaza, Kyurem-B, and Yveltal at bay.

Handles Electric, Fire, Steel, Bug, and Fairy moves like no one's business, especially with Morning Sun. Illusion means Imposterproof.

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Circle Throw
- Core Enforcer
- Curse
- King's Shield

The obligatory phazer, and staller. Core Enforcer is for Poison Healers, while Curse is while anything sets up or uses Substitute. I'm looking at you Contrary Mewtwo-Mega-X.

Fighting, Normal, Water, Grass, Electric, Fire, and of course Grass moves like a pro. Sorry Kartana.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- V-create

The "Final-Say-Ray". After some minimal hazards damage, Rayquaza can clean up the leftover pieces of the foes' team. I love combining Fake-Out with Curse to stall turns. V-Create is because Precipice Blades doesn't hit Registeel hard enough. Groudon-Primal covers Ground coverage anyways.

Got Groudon-Primal attracking Ground-type problems? Switch in Ray into Precipice Blades and sweep.

Audino-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Baton Pass

Imposterproofs itself, Doublade, and Giratina to an extent. Stamina combined with Spectral Thief literally helps my sweepers set up, if they still need to after the boosts I steal. Not a joke, just ensure you get it in before the foe begins getting too many boosts.

Dragon, Ghost immunity makes a huge difference for this team, while, Dark, Bug lets you get a Stamina boost while taking minimal damage only to Baton Pass it on to your allies.

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Shore Up
- Circle Throw
- Spectral Thief

The most powerful Defensive behemoth, at 1137 without any defensive boosts. It can take V-Creates, Precipice Blades, Psychoo Boosts, etc. and Heal up. At the very least it can take their boosts, or disable their ability, if it survives a 2HKO before switching out.

It's physical counters fail to 1HKO, often requiring V-Create to put it into 2HKO range.

Overall, defensive, and offensive teammates that cover eachother.

As for replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-698635387
——

As I've said since Gen V, people using Deo-S as merely a suicide hazard lead are using it wrong. Yeah, sure, the meta isn't kind to it right now, definitely a big drop since its glory days of being 80% of the lead meta-game by itself, but it's still the fastest thing in the game. A good Deo-S won't just set hazards once, they might not even carry hazard moves at all, and they may not make their appearance at the start of the match. A good Deo-S will annoy the heck out of you, such as using Spore on your Specs Surge Ytwo before it can do a thing, Prankster Taunting your Registeel before it can Prankster heal, Mold Breaking annoying crap past your Magic Bouncer, fast pivoting away before you can touch it because priority is rare, and threatening everything un-speed-boosted with Destiny Bond, among others.

It's a bit of a niche Pokemon in the current meta, but its a very flexible niche Pokemon since it can run nearly any support set under the sun. Its only big drawbacks are it can't do the ever popular slow pivot or abuse Core Enforcer. It's also not particularly bulky either.

On a separate note, I have seen people use Snow Warning Aurora Veil Deoxys-S with Light Clay. I don’t know how helpful it is because it just means 8 more turns of 1/2 Damage when the opponent could simply use a Boosting move or wait for the effect to wear off, but that is one thing it can do better than others: set up screens first (you cannot use Prankster because the Snow has to be up). It could be a lead or mid-match, and wouldn’t be a Suicide lead in any way because it just doubled its longevity. It could also use Reflect and Light Screen in the same moveset, which cuts everything to 25% regular damage, if combined with Aurora Veil, which negates a +6 Atk / SpA Boost.

can we unrank deoxys s

this mon technically isn't outclassed in the role of a suicide lead, but suicide leads in general are just awful. yeah it can get hazards once and sleep something, but there really aren't situations where it would actually be worth the team slot.

if you want a mon that reliably sets hazards to take care of shed teams, you can run a hazard on an offensive mon. these actually get up hazards multiple times in a game and put in work in matchups where their hazards are ineffective. on the other hand, deo s is extremely one dimensional in its role. there's simply no reason to use it anymore.

I agree for the most part. Would it gets its own section, similar to a Imposter? It’s not meta defining like Imposter, but like Imposter it isn’t outclassed in what it does... It could be the first to set up Screens, Hazards, Spore, Taunt, and has decent bulk to not die in one hit.

 

[Lotus]

I hope this doesn't sound like "necromancing" a thread, but after I had some talk with people in Discord, it seems like the new VR update would have a lot of impacts on Psychic Surge users and -ate users after the latest suspect test. What I can see coming are demotion of both Mewtwo formes and rise of Mega Rayquaza, Mega Diancie, Kyurem-B, and Zekrom. Mega Diancie in particular seem face a higher rise since it already threaten majority of the metagame, judging from various people's perspective.

Just to make it clear, I am not nominating for anything; I just wanted to see how others think.

 

[Champion Leon]

I hope this doesn't sound like "necromancing" a thread, but after I had some talk with people in Discord, it seems like the new VR update would have a lot of impacts on Psychic Surge users and -ate users after the latest suspect test. What I can see coming are demotion of both Mewtwo formes and rise of Mega Rayquaza, Mega Diancie, Kyurem-B, and Zekrom. Mega Diancie in particular seem face a higher rise since it already threaten majority of the metagame, judging from various people's perspective.

Just to make it clear, I am not nominating for anything; I just wanted to see how others think.

I agree, specifically with Triage users as well, since Leech Life and Oblivion Wing hit MMY and MMX super effectively, and that would (in turn) force the use of Dazzling.
Prankster is somewhat mitigated by Dark Types which, in turn, cause more Dark types to rise in usage.

I predict MMX will use Contrary more.

 

[SuperSkylake]

MMY is still good enough for s rank because of its versatility. It can run Contrary, Sheer Force, Magic Guard, No Guard Sniper, and even Mixed Contrary and put in a lot of work no matter what. MMX probably deserves a drop since the Psychic Surge ban does hurt it now, since it has to waste its ability slot protecting it from rkers to use the Shell Smash set or be susceptible to them with an offensive ability like Tough Claws or Adapt.

Diancie-mega should definitely move up to S rank now, and perhaps Rayquaza should fall, since Diancie can check almost any Rayquaza set. Even +3 oblivion wing can't KO it so it can KO back with Boomburst, so Triage Ray has to run Giga Drain to beat Diancie, and they don't. Any other set just flat out loses.

Speaking of Ray, even with the ban on surge, Triage sets haven't really become more threatening on it. Steel types are still prevalent as ever and they usually keep it in check pretty well. And speaking of Triage users, I think that Heracross-mega is ranked too high right now as it is walled by the ubiquidous Giratina and has no effective way to beat it, because it's already strapped for moveslots as it is having to run Drain punch, Leech Life and Swords Dance and then some other coverage to have a chance against Flying-types It's just bad.

 

[willdbeast]

First a quick aside:

Even +3 oblivion wing can't KO it so it can KO back with Boomburst, so Triage Ray has to run Giga Drain to beat Diancie, and they don't.

| Abilities |
| Triage 34.535% |

| Moves |
...
| Giga Drain 17.274% |

So unless everyone is running around with a new aerilate giga drain set I've not heard about this means (about) half of triage ray are running giga drain. Also this is the 1760 stats so it's not some random low ladder stuff. Source: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-02/moveset/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-1760.txt
I took stats from the suspect test since they are probably the most relevant but the non suspect ladder gives a similar ratio of giga drain/triage.

Also LO +3 oblivion wing does 65+% so it isnt like diancie comes out unscathed and diancie can fall foul of spore and earth power if it switches in or uses boomburst expecting to be out-prioritised (since it doesn't OHKO with espeed without LO and they expect to go second anyway Boomburst is often used which can mean you can't check effectively depending on the set).

[mega heracross] is walled by the ubiquidous Giratina and has no effective way to beat it, because it's already strapped for moveslots as it is having to run Drain punch, Leech Life and Swords Dance and then some other coverage to have a chance against Flying-types

I'm not entirely sure why "other coverage" is required when the same coverage hits both giratina and flying types (short of ho-oh) as well as zygarde: namely Ice Coverage.
I'm not going to argue Mega Hera is particularly good but man it's already in the lowest rank, cut it some slack. I think it is definitely good enough to warrant a place in the "idk it technically has a niche" land that is D Rank.

Onto the main body of my post:

I agree that MMX should move back to A+, it moved up almost entirely due to Photon Geyser with Psurge support so I think this is fairly straightforwards to justify now Psurge is gone: It's most threatening set is now much weaker and it cannot abuse terrain support to ignore priority (the majority of which it is weak to). It deserves A+ for the same reasons it was there before: a good variety of wall breaking sets none of which are new to anyone except for Adapt with Photon Geyser which offers one more choice.

I also agree that MMY should retain S rank despite arguably it's best set disappearing thanks to it's numerous other sets that continued to be common despite PsySurge being so popular. These include contrary, magic guard, sheer force and tinted lens to name a few.

Imo mega ray should maintain it's position in S rank. Due to priority being more common some of it's wall breaking or setup sets are more easy to revenge kill, however what it loses it more than makes up for with Triage being even more threatening and harder to check with offensive teams and Aerilate becoming more useful as a revenge killer as well as a wall breaker and late game cleaner thanks to its strong priority FakeSpeed.

Diancie is definitely more viable but it still doesn't quite have the power of mega ray along with lower speed and bulk which imo isn't quite compensated for by the better Super Effective coverage fairy gives. I would say A+ but I'd like to see more time in the new meta (as well as some tournament matches) before I am entirely sure it doesn't deserve S.


Since there hasn't been all that long for the meta to settle I'll give rough thoughts rather than concrete nominations for the lower mons:
Solgaleo perhaps less viable due to less need for 4* psychic resists so may fall in usage in favour of Registeel or possibly other steels.
Tyranitar may benefit from the abundance of Mega Rayquazas thanks to resisting Flying with Fire coverage as well as moongiest on triage sets. However it is fairly easy to work around with fighting coverage and doesn't like taking +3 Giga Drains unless it is unaware. A strong Sucker Punch is possibly a more viable option now although although still suffers from being exploitable with status or setup moves.
Fur Coat Chansey will definitely see room on many teams thanks to walling almost every form of -ate consistently as well as unaware chansey being an up coming threat that walls basically every special mon ever - notably triage mega ray. I can see this moving up to somewhere in A.
Kyurem-Black and Zekrom will appreciate more chance to use their strong priority, especially with electric surge being easier to pull off in the absence of Psychic Surge being spammed on ever other team.
Sceptile-Mega faces the flip side of this being weak to basically any user of priority (even zekrom can nail with dragon moves). This will become much harder to sweep with, with dazzling really lacking in power and other offensive sets much more open to revenge killing.
Kartana, Kyurem-W, Kang and any other wall breaker now faces slightly less competition but I think we will have to wait to see what fills the gap.
RIP mega sableye you had your 15 minutes of fame.

 

[SomeIrish]

Kartana, Kyurem-W, Kang and any other wall breaker now faces slightly less competition but I think we will have to wait to see what fills the gap.

Actually KyuW is doing quite well as a scarf revenge killer that can still eat Giratina and Zygarde from my experience while using it, probably being the better set now since everyone naturally expects it to be specs. The speed boost that scarf gives it allows KyuW to take care of many of its would-be revenge killers after a little chip damage, making the opponent use their -ate resist to stop them which gives Illusion pokemon plenty of opportunities to wipe them out and let our cold killer run rampant.

Specs is still incredibly strong on KyuW however, being able to almost OHKO Regenvest Giratina
252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 426-504 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
KyuW only really has trouble when bulky pokemon that resist Boomburst come in, but as I mentioned already KyuW is very good at making openings for Illusion wallbreakers to break through its counters. MMX works quite well for this since the only weakness that the two share is Fairy which isn't good for almost any pokemon that isn't a bulky resist to stay in on. MMX also allows for KyuW to use specs more freely since it can patch up its middling speed-tier.

Another thing to know about KyuW is that it can play very differently based on what item it uses. Scarf lets KyuW play more aggressively (which I find is more beneficial if you're using an Illusion mon) while specs lets KyuW do its usual job as a wallbreaker that forces you to send out your -ate resist should KyuW find an opening.

What bothers me right now is KyuW's place in B- as I find it to be better than KyuB which is placed in B tier. KyuB hasn't really been able to perform like it did in ORAS before the nerf to -ate abilities and the removal of the EV limit which let Fakespeed -ates control the meta. KyuB also doesn't have access to any moves that can really compare to the power of Boomburst which forces our monster from OU to run setup, but even then is overshadowed by pokemon with more versatility like Mega Ray, the Mewtwos, Diancie, etc. Though KyuB has better coverage options than KyuW, neither of them can use them particularly well with the sets that they typically want to run and this point alone doesn't feel like it's enough to justify placing KyuB in B anyways.
tl dr; KyuW is good, better than Kyub. Put KyuW in at least B tier, though if it were me I'd put him in B+ or maybe even A-

 

[Funbot28]

Wanted to discuss some noms after the PsySurge ban since I definetely feel that some stuff should move around after recent meta changes:

S -> A+
Mega Mewtwo X definitely took a hit after the PsySurge ban as it lost the ability to effectively check a multitude of offensive threats like Aerilate Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie while still being able to fire off powerful Photon Geysers. While Tinted Lens and Adaptability sets are still quite formidable and still demand proper select counterplay, pale in comparison to what PsySurge was able to do, especially when concerning setup boosting sets. People should still not sleep on this thing however as it it's still a major threat that must be considered when teambuilding, just not as braindead as before.

A+ -> A / A-
Was never really a fan of Registeel as a primary Psychic / -ate check due to how much momentum it drains against the majority of threats it faces, being forced to either consistently recover or be forced to click U-Turn in order to not give the opponent too much liberty to abuse it's passiveness. It also does not appreciate the ban of PsySurge as it gives it less inscentive to be run on a majority of teams and faces stiff competition from other Steels such as Solgaleo, Necro-DM, and Ferrrothorn rn. Prankster sets are especially so easy to take advantage of atm and pale in comparison in terms of effectiveness compared to the early SM meta imo.

A -> A+
Mega Diancie is a great example of an offensive threat that benefited immensely from the PsySurge ban as Pixilate sets can now properly check the offensive threats it's supposed to threaten (ie: the Mega Mewtwo's) and does not need to fear 50/50s anymore when clickling prio or Boomburst / coverage. Not having a proper -ate check usually means Diancie can get free kills every time it comes in due to how powerful of a nuke it is, and this is not even considering others tech sets such as Magic Guard and Contrary which have their own proper uses as well. FF Steels are still a pain for it but it still offers so much in terms of wallbreaking potential to just to A.

B+ -> A-
Red Orb Don is good atm since since people don't prep for it as much after the Primal Groudon ban. Both offensive SR sets and Shift Gear sets are both good at breaking down most balance teams once the defensive Dragons have been weakened. Illusion shenanigans pre-primal reverting also cause it to be a huge nuisance as well due to how it can lure in Imposter. Being forced into Desolate Land does suck for it which is why I woudn't push it any further but it's still a pretty formidable mon that takes advantage of current meta trends.

B -> B+
A change that should have occurred when Pdon got banned but w/e. Anyways, PsySurge leaving also makes Galvanize sets much more scarier since most popular Electric-resists get blown away by Zekrom's Dragon STAB moves. Has the potential to Imposter proof as well with Plates and can even run some cool other sets like Electric Surge when paired with Terrain support to become a pain for offense. All in all, Zekrom is a cool anti-meta offensive threat that should rise after the recent bans.

C -> UR
No real reason to use Cress atm due to PsySurge ban. Gets outclassed on a defensive standpoint by Lugia mainly and is a laughable offensive threat compared to MMY.

Don't agree with a MMY drop and also disagree with a Fur Coat Chansey raise. Rankings look good besides that to me.

 

[Rumors]

@ Kyu-B/Kyu-W I'd definitely agree with Kyu-W being above Kyu-B. It has more raw power and is just more flexible, even if its limited almost entirely to one ability, as it can run Specs, Scarf, and, currently less seen, Tail Glow/QDance/Shell Smash set-up. Kyu-B appreciates the Psy Surge ban, but full EV still has it struggle to Fakespeed KO offensive stuff it needs to remove. A lot of people like to put Boomburst on it to deal with Fur Coats but, IMO, you're better just running Kyu-W with Extreme Speed to pick off Boomburst survivors. Not to mention, one of Kyu-B's main niches last gen was to check/counter Gale Wings Mega-Ray. It struggles against Triage Mega-Ray since it no longer outspeeds, especially if Rocks are on its side of the field. Kyu-B can run Skill Link, which is a cool set, but, on ladder at least, people are so accustomed to not seeing Kyu-B they don't respect the Refrigerate bluff anymore and will just attack it, which really hurts its effectiveness.

Dunno exact ratings, just Kyu-W needs to be above Kyu-B.

@ Cresselia No, leave it. It faces competition from Lugia, yeah sure. But Lugia has weaknesses to Rock/Stealth Rock, Ice/Refrigerate, and Electric/Galvanize, all of which are pretty significant (especially that first one). Higher speed also makes slow pivoting much harder and increases vulnerability to Core Enforcer. Grass resistance is rarely relevant and most users hit Lugia neutrally with their STAB anyway (P.Don, Ray, Pogre, etc.). Earth immunity is only somewhat relevant because Thousand Arrows exists. Bug neutrality is neat though and 4x Fighting resistance is nice vs physical Contraries, but I hardly think the advantages of the Flying type do not outweigh the lack of it nearly enough to dumpster Cress. They're basically different flavors of the same thing for different teams and, IMO, I'd much sooner argue a Lugia drop because Stealth Rock weakness is pretty crummy to have on a defensive Pokemon.

Which is a shame since I like Lugia a heck of a lot more than Cress.


Pretty neutral on the rest, though I'd really argue to wait another week or two to let the meta settle.

 

[Champion Leon]

@ Kyu-B/Kyu-W I'd definitely agree with Kyu-W being above Kyu-B. It has more raw power and is just more flexible, even if its limited almost entirely to one ability, as it can run Specs, Scarf, and, currently less seen, Tail Glow/QDance/Shell Smash set-up. Kyu-B appreciates the Psy Surge ban, but full EV still has it struggle to Fakespeed KO offensive stuff it needs to remove. A lot of people like to put Boomburst on it to deal with Fur Coats but, IMO, you're better just running Kyu-W with Extreme Speed to pick off Boomburst survivors. Not to mention, one of Kyu-B's main niches last gen was to check/counter Gale Wings Mega-Ray. It struggles against Triage Mega-Ray since it no longer outspeeds, especially if Rocks are on its side of the field. Kyu-B can run Skill Link, which is a cool set, but, on ladder at least, people are so accustomed to not seeing Kyu-B they don't respect the Refrigerate bluff anymore and will just attack it, which really hurts its effectiveness.

Dunno exact ratings, just Kyu-W needs to be above Kyu-B.

@ Cresselia No, leave it. It faces competition from Lugia, yeah sure. But Lugia has weaknesses to Rock/Stealth Rock, Ice/Refrigerate, and Electric/Galvanize, all of which are pretty significant (especially that first one). Higher speed also makes slow pivoting much harder and increases vulnerability to Core Enforcer. Grass resistance is rarely relevant and most users hit Lugia neutrally with their STAB anyway (P.Don, Ray, Pogre, etc.). Earth immunity is only somewhat relevant because Thousand Arrows exists. Bug neutrality is neat though and 4x Fighting resistance is nice vs physical Contraries, but I hardly think the advantages of the Flying type do not outweigh the lack of it nearly enough to dumpster Cress. They're basically different flavors of the same thing for different teams and, IMO, I'd much sooner argue a Lugia drop because Stealth Rock weakness is pretty crummy to have on a defensive Pokemon.

Which is a shame since I like Lugia a heck of a lot more than Cress.
Pretty neutral on the rest, though I'd really argue to wait another week or two to let the meta settle.

Are you referring to Life Orb and/or +Atk Natured Kyurem-B lacking power?
I know that Rayquaza runs a positive Speed nature in order to stay ahead of Diancie-Mega and outpace Neutral natured opposing Rayquaza. If Kyurem-B runs a positive Nature, while Ray runs a neutral, then the overall Attack will be higher despite Ray’s naturally higher Base Attack, while offering better coverage against Dragons like Giratina.
Damage Calculations with + Defense Natured Fur Coat Giratina:

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252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 88-109 (17.4 - 21.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 174-211 (34.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So 17.4% + 34.5% takes it to 51.9% + 34.5%!= 86.4% Damage before the 3rd Leftovers (Stealth Rock negates the first two turns of Leftovers) if it chooses to not use Boomburst

Damage Calculations with a neutral Defense natured Fur Coat Giratina (with +SDef for example)

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 96-117 (19 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 195-229 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

So assuming Stealth Rock cancels out 2 turns of Leftovers from 1 Fake Out and 1 Extreme Speed: 19% + 38.6% = 57.6%, plus an additional 38.6 = 96.2% before the 3rd Leftovers triggers, and this assumes minimum damage roll per hit and that Giratina is at full HP when it has switched in.

Regardless:

252 SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 429-507 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I feel like Kyurem-B isn’t as good as Diancie and Ray, but it can at least stay at its level due to the lack of Psychic Surge and ability to threaten Flying types like Yveltal, Lugia, and some Rayquaza (Like Contrarian), not to mention Dragon types like Zygarde and the odd Garchomp-Mega, etc.

 

[Rumors]

I was thinking vs more offensive neutral stuff, like either Mewtwo. Though LO is kinda not great on Kyu-B. It works, but really, really needs hazard control or Wish support because otherwise it'll wear itself down really fast (45% damage from switching into rocks + LO recoil from a single Fakespeed, 20% damage per safe-switch Fakespeed). It usually wants other items, because it can't afford to LO Fakeout into walls too much, especially the occasional Rocky Helmet wall. Which, therein lies the rub.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 105-124 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 208-246 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Does not KO without prior damage. You no longer take a bunch of recoil damage hitting the wrong targets but... yeah.


252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 136-161 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 270-320 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

97.5% - 115.6% total. Probably will KO, might not. But you need their walls and stuff out of the way to keep up pressure since Kyu-B will wear itself down if they switch into it.


Diancie and Mega-Ray get away with Life Orbs and such much more easily because they can Boomburst super hard to pressure any potential defensive switch-ins, preventing stuff like, say, defensive Arceus from switching in repeatedly to Recoil and Recover stall them to death. Kyu-B's Boomburst is laughable in comparison, especially when running Adamant. Though on nature, it's worth noting that the QC team were insisting I have Naughty / Naive natures in the analysis, when the analyses were still a thing, to avoid that issue, but those natures have their own, yet not entirely relevant to the discussion, problems.

Now mind, I don't necessarily think Kyu-B should drop. I'm neutral on that position. I just feel Kyu-W is just more flexible and more threatening in general and has the capability to step on Kyu-B's toes better than vice versa so, wherever Kyu-B is, Kyu-W should, at worst, be on the same rating or, more ideally, at least one tier above. Ice Plate Boomburst + Extreme Speed or Choice Scarf Boomburst both 2HKO Mewtwo-Y without any recoil, for example, accomplishing mostly the same kinda job. It also doesn't have to worry about low PP, Dazzling, Fur Coat, or 4MSS.

 

[SomeIrish]

Are you referring to Life Orb and/or +Atk Natured Kyurem-B lacking power?
I know that Rayquaza runs a positive Speed nature in order to stay ahead of Diancie-Mega and outpace Neutral natured opposing Rayquaza. If Kyurem-B runs a positive Nature, while Ray runs a neutral, then the overall Attack will be higher despite Ray’s naturally higher Base Attack, while offering better coverage against Dragons like Giratina.
Damage Calculations with + Defense Natured Fur Coat Giratina:

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 88-109 (17.4 - 21.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 174-211 (34.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So 17.4% + 34.5% takes it to 51.9% + 34.5%!= 86.4% Damage before the 3rd Leftovers (Stealth Rock negates the first two turns of Leftovers) if it chooses to not use Boomburst

Damage Calculations with a neutral Defense natured Fur Coat Giratina (with +SDef for example)

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 96-117 (19 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 195-229 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

So assuming Stealth Rock cancels out 2 turns of Leftovers from 1 Fake Out and 1 Extreme Speed: 19% + 38.6% = 57.6%, plus an additional 38.6 = 96.2% before the 3rd Leftovers triggers, and this assumes minimum damage roll per hit and that Giratina is at full HP when it has switched in.

Regardless:

252 SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 429-507 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I feel like Kyurem-B isn’t as good as Diancie and Ray, but it can at least stay at its level due to the lack of Psychic Surge and ability to threaten Flying types like Yveltal, Lugia, and some Rayquaza (Like Contrarian), not to mention Dragon types like Zygarde and the odd Garchomp-Mega, etc.

A few things I'd like to say here:
1. Most people wouldn't want to run Life Orb on a pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness, especially if you're fakespeed because you don't want to lose a 5th of your health every time you use it.
2. How is KyuB getting a second Extreme Speed for free when Giratina can use Core Enforcer and remove its Refrigerate?
3. Nobody said anything about lowering KyuB's rank though I guess it was implied.
4. The only flying type you mentioned that isn't hit super effectively by Mega Diancie was Lugia.
5. You seem to have missed the point of running fakespeed which is to kill offensive pokemon, KyuB is a pretty mediocre wallbreaker in comparison to, the previously mentioned, Mega Ray, Mega Diancie, and KyuW.

KyuB doesn't lack power, he lacks the tools and benefits to effectively use his power at the same level as the rest of the meta, being overshadowed by pokemon with better typing or stats that allow them to make proper use of powerful moves.

A+ -> A / A-
Was never really a fan of Registeel as a primary Psychic / -ate check due to how much momentum it drains against the majority of threats it faces, being forced to either consistently recover or be forced to click U-Turn in order to not give the opponent too much liberty to abuse it's passiveness. It also does not appreciate the ban of PsySurge as it gives it less inscentive to be run on a majority of teams and faces stiff competition from other Steels such as Solgaleo, Necro-DM, and Ferrrothorn rn. Prankster sets are especially so easy to take advantage of atm and pale in comparison in terms of effectiveness compared to the early SM meta imo.

Not sure what you're going on about here. Registeel is still the bulkiest steel type around and doesn't carry a weakness to Moongeist beam and still resists Flying moves which helps with the renewed popularity of Triage Mega Ray. Registeel was also never really an answer to PsySurge as it would take as much as 60% from Psycho Boost from MMY. I still find Flash Fire Registeel to be a great blanket check to many special attackers due to how common they use fire moves to check steel types.

PS: Rumors sniped me lol

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I'm also against dropping Registeel. Flash Fire is still a very good set for it, even Regen without AV is a thing so that it can use status moves like Will-O-Wisp, Stealth Rock, Defog... without being that much of a momentum sink, especially because you can bluff RegenVest, so that the opponent probably doesn't switch to a Magic Bounce user. It also is slower than Solgaleo or Necrozma-DM, allowing it to gain momentum via slow u-turns against them.

 

[Champion Leon]

Rumors, I appreciate your reply.

I wanted to Add +Atk Icicle Plate since you included Life Orb as well as No item on your calculations, so this would serve as a somewhat middle ground:

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 127-150 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 249-294 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If Stealth Rock is on the field, a 30.5% Fake Out + 59.8% Extreme Speed does 90.3% which means Stealth Rocks will make it a KO, also if MMY uses Life Orb it also is promptly in 2HKO range.

A few things I'd like to say here:
1. Most people wouldn't want to run Life Orb on a pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness, especially if you're fakespeed because you don't want to lose a 5th of your health every time you use it.
2. How is KyuB getting a second Extreme Speed for free when Giratina can use Core Enforcer and remove its Refrigerate?
3. Nobody said anything about lowering KyuB's rank though I guess it was implied.
4. The only flying type you mentioned that isn't hit super effectively by Mega Diancie was Lugia.
5. You seem to have missed the point of running fakespeed which is to kill offensive pokemon, KyuB is a pretty mediocre wallbreaker in comparison to, the previously mentioned, Mega Ray, Mega Diancie, and KyuW.

KyuB doesn't lack power, he lacks the tools and benefits to effectively use his power at the same level as the rest of the meta, being overshadowed by pokemon with better typing or stats that allow them to make proper use of powerful moves.

Not sure what you're going on about here. Registeel is still the bulkiest steel type around and doesn't carry a weakness to Moongeist beam and still resists Flying moves which helps with the renewed popularity of Triage Mega Ray. Registeel was also never really an answer to PsySurge as it would take as much as 60% from Psycho Boost from MMY. I still find Flash Fire Registeel to be a great blanket check to many special attackers due to how common they use fire moves to check steel types.

PS: Rumors sniped me lol

I understand the point point of Fake Speed, I think you missed the buck on where Rumors specifically mentioned Fur Coat, and my post was to simply show that even without Boomburst, Fake Speed would deal decent damage.

Some Giratina do not run Core Enforcer, and opt for Spectral Thief or other moves like Curse or Haze paired with Spiky Shield, and Defog.
Regardless, it can use Fake Out and Boom Burst for the secure KO... my point was in damage Calculations in the physical side.

“A lot of people like to put Boomburst on it to deal with Fur Coats but, IMO, you're better just running Kyu-W with Extreme Speed to pick off Boomburst survivors.”

Also your point about Life Orb + Stealth Rock weakness is moot on Aerilate Rayquaza... Rumors provided sound reasoning as to why Life Orb is used and acceptable on Rayquaza, but your point was that Life Orb wouldn’t likely be used on a SE weak -ate Pokémon, but it clearly isn’t so uncommon on Ray.

Diancie doesn’t hit Rayquaza as hard as Kyurem-B, which is why I specified it, especially since Rayquaza outspeeds both and so either will rely on Fake Out to go first, making its 4x Type Effectiveness more relevant than Diancie’s 2x Type Effectiveness.

Further Kyurem-B running an +Atk Nature Off Higher Base Attack vs a Diancie with a Speed Nature will deal more to Yveltal...

Also, some Rayquaza pack Precipice Blades over V-Create to deal with Flash Fire users, which is another threat to Diancie switch ins, turning it into a check rather than a Counter.

Even without Life Orb, Kyurem-B can do this:
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 408-480 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Chessking345]

Agree with MMX drop, PDon rise, Diancie rise
My own noms:
Solgaleo from A to A-
So the big reason to use Solgaleo was because it was possibly the best answer to Surge MMY, now that Psysurge got banned there is less need to use a 4x resist to psychic to keep MMY in check so other steels can handle it. Also the unfortunate weaknesses to ghost and dark makes other steels more appealing (for example this doesn't check gigas)
Dialga from B+ to A-
The regenvest sets are really good answers to the pretty common triage Mray while being a solid blanket check to -ates bar Diancie (you should have another steel for that). Before surge ban it struggled against MMY because Psystrike can 2hko with chip but now it is ok, also likes less MMX. Its offensive sets with Doom Desire also is pretty difficult to switch into because regi gets 2hko at +3 and with tinted its an ohko.
Ferrothorn from B to B+
While it has somewhat mediocre bulk the ability to run Leftovers over Safety Goggles help quite a bit. It is pretty good at checking PH as Gigas fail to break through and Xern gets walled (FF beats all xern) and with Anchor Shot, Entrainment and Topsy turvy it can remove them too. I feel like this is at least as good as DM Necro.
Mega Steelix from C to B-
Being a bulky steel while not straight up dying to Fire and Ground coverage (V-Create and PBlades) thanks to that stupidly high defence is great, the ground typing helps it check stuff like Zekrom while blocking Volt Switches, better than most of the stuff in C and should be around as good as Megabro

 

[SomeIrish]

Rumors, I appreciate your reply.

I wanted to Add +Atk Icicle Plate since you included Life Orb as well as No item on your calculations, so this would serve as a somewhat middle ground:

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 127-150 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 249-294 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If Stealth Rock is on the field, a 30.5% Fake Out + 59.8% Extreme Speed does 90.3% which means Stealth Rocks will make it a KO, also if MMY uses Life Orb it also is promptly in 2HKO range.


I understand the point point of Fake Speed, I think you missed the buck on where Rumors specifically mentioned Fur Coat, and my post was to simply show that even without Boomburst, Fake Speed would deal decent damage.

Some Giratina do not run Core Enforcer, and opt for Spectral Thief or other moves like Curse or Haze paired with Spiky Shield, and Defog.
Regardless, it can use Fake Out and Boom Burst for the secure KO... my point was in damage Calculations in the physical side.

“A lot of people like to put Boomburst on it to deal with Fur Coats but, IMO, you're better just running Kyu-W with Extreme Speed to pick off Boomburst survivors.”

Also your point about Life Orb + Stealth Rock weakness is moot on Aerilate Rayquaza... Rumors provided sound reasoning as to why Life Orb is used and acceptable on Rayquaza, but your point was that Life Orb wouldn’t likely be used on a SE weak -ate Pokémon, but it clearly isn’t so uncommon on Ray.

Diancie doesn’t hit Rayquaza as hard as Kyurem-B, which is why I specified it, especially since Rayquaza outspeeds both and so either will rely on Fake Out to go first, making its 4x Type Effectiveness more relevant than Diancie’s 2x Type Effectiveness.

Further Kyurem-B running an +Atk Nature Off Higher Base Attack vs a Diancie with a Speed Nature will deal more to Yveltal...

Also, some Rayquaza pack Precipice Blades over V-Create to deal with Flash Fire users, which is another threat to Diancie switch ins, turning it into a check rather than a Counter.

Even without Life Orb, Kyurem-B can do this:
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 408-480 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I never said that Rayquaza is free to use Life Orb and Fakespeed, it can use Extreme Speed and Boomburst but Fake Out is and Life Orb just do not mix with them. Speaking of Rayquaza, Diancie does get outsped by it but unless the Rayquaza is using some other -ate ability for whatever reason then Diancie takes very little damage from Rayquaza's priority attacks which lets it go for a Fakespeed kill. Another point worth talking about is your misconception that -ate Rayquaza runs Ground coverage over Fire

Usage stats (1760)

Aerilate 31.885%
V-create 24.204%
Secret Sword 6.356%
Earth Power 3.127%
Precipice Blades 1.861%

There are quite a bit more Fighting and Fire moves that Rayquaza runs that are used more often than the two Ground moves over there, which are the two most commonly used Ground moves. What especially hurts for KyuB here is that the more common coverage moves hurt him far more than Diancie

Lastly, almost everything KyuB can do with a higher attack stat, Diancie can do the same, if not better, with Boomburst.

 

[Champion Leon]

SomeIrish

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I never said that Rayquaza is free to use Life Orb and Fakespeed, it can use Extreme Speed and Boomburst but Fake Out is and Life Orb just do not mix with them. Speaking of Rayquaza, Diancie does get outsped by it but unless the Rayquaza is using some other -ate ability for whatever reason then Diancie takes very little damage from Rayquaza's priority attacks which lets it go for a Fakespeed kill. Another point worth talking about is your misconception that -ate Rayquaza runs Ground coverage over Fire

Usage stats (1760)

Aerilate 31.885%
V-create 24.204%
Secret Sword 6.356%
Earth Power 3.127%
Precipice Blades 1.861%

There are quite a bit more Fighting and Fire moves that Rayquaza runs that are used more often than the two Ground moves over there, which are the two most commonly used Ground moves. What especially hurts for KyuB here is that the more common coverage moves hurt him far more than Diancie

Lastly, almost everything KyuB can do with a higher attack stat, Diancie can do the same, if not better, with Boomburst.

You said “Most people wouldn't want to run Life Orb on a pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness, especially if you're fakespeed because you don't want to lose a 5th of your health every time you use it.“

Your first half is how most people wouldn’t want to run Life Orb on a Stealth Rock weak Pokémon period.
If people are using Fake Speed Aerilate Ray, especially as it powers up the 4th Attack coverage Move that isn’t a Flying Type Move, then your first half of the statement is moot, which is my point. The second half emphasized Fake Out yet because they were separate but related points, I thought I would acknowledge that it doesn’t always mean they won’t always avoid to slap Life Orb on something weak to Stealth Rocks regardless of moveset.

“Speaking of Rayquaza, Diancie does get outsped by it but unless the Rayquaza is using some other -ate ability for whatever reason then Diancie takes very little damage from Rayquaza's priority attacks which lets it go for a Fakespeed kill.”

Triage Giga Drain Rayquaza... and that does carry Life Orb for sure as it heals HP anyways. Don’t worry, Kyurem-B resists the Giga Drain and forces Oblivion Wing, which it can survive... Fake-Out from Kyurem-B is useful because it outspeeds -ate Extreme Speed from Rayquaza and will 1HKO, while if Rayquaza has previously used V-Create on a Triage set (say you slow pivot to Kyurem), (thus V-Create will then lower its Speed) then it can outspeed Ray and 1HKO with Fake Out.

“Lastly, almost everything KyuB can do with a higher attack stat, Diancie can do the same, if not better, with Boomburst.”

But the cost is it won’t be going first... Ice Extreme Speed is the selling point- 4x Effectiveness allows Fake out to 1HKO Rayquaza, better threaten Zygarde, and because it isn’t as concerned with having a Speed Nature, can use an +Atk boosting nature.

Diancie and Rayquaza have better defensive typing and better mixed stats, but Kyurem-B can offer better Attack power bc it won’t need to run a +Speed Nature.
Boomburst is their selling point, Fake Speed is Kyurem’s.

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 198-234 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Not to worry when Adamant Icicle Plate Fake Out almost always 1HKOs... see last post I made.

“Aerilate 31.885%
V-create 24.204%
Secret Sword 6.356%
Earth Power 3.127%
Precipice Blades 1.861%”

Yes, the numbers don’t lie, but many people will continue to switch to Precipice Blades, or Earth Power etc. because Flash Fire Registeel, Dusk-Mane Necrozma/Solgaleo and others are not going to be hurt by V-Create at all. While Dialga, Zekrom, Tyranitar-Mega, Diancie-Mega, Etc. Take far more from Ground moves.

Now that that’s out of the way, I’m interested in seeing if Kartana will rise, as both Triage and Belly Drum Unburden sets are becoming more frequent in the ladder games I have seen. While there are not too many Grass-weak Water or Rock Types (no Ground types are weak due to their second Typing), I still think an Immunity to Spore, STAB Sunsteel Strike and 181 Attack is nothing to dismiss.
I think its Triage set works great vs Gyarados-Mega and Kyogre-Primal especially if Gyarados-Mega has set up and aims for Power Trip, or if Kyogre-Primal is sweeping with Quiver Dance.

Kartana packs Flash Fire as well, but I think it’s offensive abilities pack more punch and relevance.

 

[Chessking345]

I think by "Priority Moves" Triage is irrelevant here since no one talked about it and all of a sudden it is brought up?
Also who runs V-Create on Triage Ray, the set is Tail Glow, OWing, Moongeist, Spore/Giga Drain.
But anyways I agree with a Kartana rise. But the most common sets are Steelworker which lacks switch-ins (Band Sunsteel), Prankster (idk), and Unburden, Triage seems cool though.

 

[SomeIrish]

SomeIrish

Hide

You said “Most people wouldn't want to run Life Orb on a pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness, especially if you're fakespeed because you don't want to lose a 5th of your health every time you use it.“

Your first half is how most people wouldn’t want to run Life Orb on a Stealth Rock weak Pokémon period.
If people are using Fake Speed Aerilate Ray, especially as it powers up the 4th Attack coverage Move that isn’t a Flying Type Move, then your first half of the statement is moot, which is my point. The second half emphasized Fake Out yet because they were separate but related points, I thought I would acknowledge that it doesn’t always mean they won’t always avoid to slap Life Orb on something weak to Stealth Rocks regardless of moveset.

“Speaking of Rayquaza, Diancie does get outsped by it but unless the Rayquaza is using some other -ate ability for whatever reason then Diancie takes very little damage from Rayquaza's priority attacks which lets it go for a Fakespeed kill.”

Triage Giga Drain Rayquaza... and that does carry Life Orb for sure as it heals HP anyways. Don’t worry, Kyurem-B resists the Giga Drain and forces Oblivion Wing, which it can survive... Fake-Out from Kyurem-B is useful because it outspeeds -ate Extreme Speed from Rayquaza and will 1HKO, while if Rayquaza has previously used V-Create on a Triage set (say you slow pivot to Kyurem), (thus V-Create will then lower its Speed) then it can outspeed Ray and 1HKO with Fake Out.

“Lastly, almost everything KyuB can do with a higher attack stat, Diancie can do the same, if not better, with Boomburst.”

But the cost is it won’t be going first... Ice Extreme Speed is the selling point- 4x Effectiveness allows Fake out to 1HKO Rayquaza, better threaten Zygarde, and because it isn’t as concerned with having a Speed Nature, can use an +Atk boosting nature.

Diancie and Rayquaza have better defensive typing and better mixed stats, but Kyurem-B can offer better Attack power bc it won’t need to run a +Speed Nature.
Boomburst is their selling point, Fake Speed is Kyurem’s.

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 198-234 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Not to worry when Adamant Icicle Plate Fake Out almost always 1HKOs... see last post I made.

“Aerilate 31.885%
V-create 24.204%
Secret Sword 6.356%
Earth Power 3.127%
Precipice Blades 1.861%”

Yes, the numbers don’t lie, but many people will continue to switch to Precipice Blades, or Earth Power etc. because Flash Fire Registeel, Dusk-Mane Necrozma/Solgaleo and others are not going to be hurt by V-Create at all. While Dialga, Zekrom, Tyranitar-Mega, Diancie-Mega, Etc. Take far more from Ground moves.

Now that that’s out of the way, I’m interested in seeing if Kartana will rise, as both Triage and Belly Drum Unburden sets are becoming more frequent in the ladder games I have seen. While there are not too many Grass-weak Water or Rock Types (no Ground types are weak due to their second Typing), I still think an Immunity to Spore, STAB Sunsteel Strike and 181 Attack is nothing to dismiss.
I think its Triage set works great vs Gyarados-Mega and Kyogre-Primal especially if Gyarados-Mega has set up and aims for Power Trip, or if Kyogre-Primal is sweeping with Quiver Dance.

Kartana packs Flash Fire as well, but I think it’s offensive abilities pack more punch and relevance.

Starting with Kartana, I think it's a neat idea but I don't think it'll actually see much use, our little origami knife just isn't as appealing as the bigger threats of the meta and doesn't get anything too unique by running triage.

Back to the discussion on KyuB.
I said "most" people, most does not mean everyone but rather a majority of them.
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 608-716 (146.8 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
wow it's almost like triage ray needs to setup before it can get any ohkos

let's just drop the argument of "who kills Ray harder" because they both kill Rayquaza, everyone knows that. We don't need to argue about every specific scenario when facing a single pokemon when we could look at the broader spectrum which would provide more helpful information. KyuB has its uses but Diancie proves to be more useful.

also I think El Mustacho already talked about Triage Kartana quite a while ago back in the main thread

edit: also, let's not speculate saying that a Pokemon will run some move before we ask why they aren't running it already. -ate Ray is harder to improof if it has a Ground move because that limits you to Pokemon like Celesteela or Levitate Steel types which aren't as useful

 

[Champion Leon]

#Done
SomeIrish

Hide

Starting with Kartana, I think it's a neat idea but I don't think it'll actually see much use, our little origami knife just isn't as appealing as the bigger threats of the meta and doesn't get anything too unique by running triage.

Back to the discussion on KyuB.
I said "most" people, most does not mean everyone but rather a majority of them.
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 608-716 (146.8 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
wow it's almost like triage ray needs to setup before it can get any ohkos

let's just drop the argument of "who kills Ray harder" because they both kill Rayquaza, everyone knows that. We don't need to argue about every specific scenario when facing a single pokemon when we could look at the broader spectrum which would provide more helpful information. KyuB has its uses but Diancie proves to be more useful.

also I think El Mustacho already talked about Triage Kartana quite a while ago back in the main thread

edit: also, let's not speculate saying that a Pokemon will run some move before we ask why they aren't running it already. -ate Ray is harder to improof if it has a Ground move because that limits you to Pokemon like Celesteela or Levitate Steel types which aren't as useful

My bringing up Kartana’s foreseeable rise is basically just post-Psychic Surge ban, so if someone else discussed it a while back in the main thread then I assume it’s before priority blocking Psychic Terrain left the metagame.
Kartana is used with Belly Drum and Triage, offering huge Base Attack, and immediate set up (I saw Spore, Belly Drum, Horn Leech, Drain Punch).

I have already proven my point and dropped the discussion when I said “Now that that’s out of the way.”

Also, if you have a Kyurem-B as your other -ate on your team, then you have already Imposter proofed Ray-Mega with Precipice Blades... no need for arbitrary Steel types.

Diancie cannot Fake Speed KO Imposter Ray if it uses Precipice Blades, but Kyurem is fine, guess it frees up having to use V-Create as long as you have Kyurem-B:
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 244-292 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 484-576 (68.7 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Chessking345]

The only set you would run drum kartana is unburden which is self imposter proof as you have a solid chance of losing to normal imposter and straight up lose to scarf imposter. Also running an offensive check like Kyu-B to something like Rayquaza is a pretty poor choice as you get bopped pretty hard by boomburst (on mobile so can't check calcs). In addition, you are playing against IMPOSTER, and I'm not sure why you are assuming the opponent will stay in, also imposter is usually eviolite which you didn't use in your calcs and can fire off another boomburst to cripple you. It can then switch out and come in later on a defensive mon to heal back up.
Why the heck are we debating about this in the first place, we weren't discussing on dropping kyub rather on raising kyuw.

Now, thoughts on raise on megachomp and zekrom? Mega chomp lacks switchins (I'm not going to include imp) in the top tiers (only niche stuff like cele which still loses to 1k arrows and maybe megabro?). Zekrom is similar but ferro can come in, it also has priority that is not resisted by steels. Megachomp is also an amazing partner for mega diancie as illusion lets it bop almost every single switch in to diancie.

 

[Champion Leon]

Hide

The only set you would run drum kartana is unburden which is self imposter proof as you have a solid chance of losing to normal imposter and straight up lose to scarf imposter. Also running an offensive check like Kyu-B to something like Rayquaza is a pretty poor choice as you get bopped pretty hard by boomburst (on mobile so can't check calcs). In addition, you are playing against IMPOSTER, and I'm not sure why you are assuming the opponent will stay in, also imposter is usually eviolite which you didn't use in your calcs and can fire off another boomburst to cripple you. It can then switch out and come in later on a defensive mon to heal back up.
Why the heck are we debating about this in the first place, we weren't discussing on dropping kyub rather on raising kyuw.

Now, thoughts on raise on megachomp and zekrom? Mega chomp lacks switchins (I'm not going to include imp) in the top tiers (only niche stuff like cele which still loses to 1k arrows and maybe megabro?). Zekrom is similar but ferro can come in, it also has priority that is not resisted by steels. Megachomp is also an amazing partner for mega diancie as illusion lets it bop almost every single switch in to diancie.

I agree on Kartana, but my post was about what I saw not how I played it. Triage was likely used to hit hard while still being able to outspeed -ate users like Diancie and KO it with STAB Horn Leech, or Kyurem-B with Drain Punch, as Sunsteel Strike is slower when it lacks priority.

I switched the HP and added Eviolite but forgot the calcs don’t apply Eviolite on Ray automatically. A mistake, but here are calcs I pulled up

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 268-324 (38 - 46%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 532-628 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Made it Grass + Dragon for Neutral Stealth Rock)

It can Fake Speed KO without Life Orb, and won’t worry about a second Boomburst since it will be using Fake Out, then Extreme Speed after switching in.

Imposter may use Fake Out and Extreme Speed to outspeed your Rayquaza-Mega as an attempt to add chip damage (they pack Eviolite so their Boomburst won’t pack a Life Orb Boost), or if they predict you may stay in and use Boomburst on them they may want to break that speed tie (such as if their Chansey is a little worn down after switching into your Boomburst and Stealth Rocks).
Alternatively, they may use a coverage move if they predict a Steel Type Switch in, which means Kyurem-B may not necessarily take a Boomburst on Switch in.

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Kyurem-B can Counter Imposter Ray as it won’t take 2 Boombursts and would likely survive if it could.

252 SpA Aerilate Chansey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black: 198-234 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

It was discussed in reference to whether Ray would not be suitable to run Precipice Blades because it would have few counters to Imposter proof your team, and so Kyurem-B become the topic as to how one could counter Imposter Ray without using Knock Off on Eviolite.

My original point was about Kyurem-B staying as is, as the Psychic Surge ban only helps it because it can better use its Physical priority, while Kyurem-W needs Boomburst, which can be done with or without Psychic Surge ban.

(I guess I’m trying to say, are we re-evaluating Kyurem-W now because we forgot about it, or does it’s ability to use Extreme Speed without as much anti-priority the reason we move it above Kyurem-B?
Kyurem-B gained more since the ban because what it relies on is less limited. Faster threats can hurt Kyurem-W before it Boombursts.

I want this discussion to be done and only responded due to Kartana and to correct my error in calculations.

 

[cityscapes]

primal kyogre to a
i really don't like primal kyogre in the meta right now. defensive sets only provide the team with four resistances (edit: forgot steel but kart sunsteel does 2 billion), and even then they struggle to take strong resisted attacks like red orb don's v-create. ogre is bad at walling all three of the offensive threats in s rank: mmx steamrolls it with geyser, mmy wins with sheer force or contrary geyser/leaf storm, pretty much all mray sets except triage lacking giga drain can break ogre. mega gengar is the first mon i'd really say it "walls"

offensive ph ogre is a really unreliable sweeper. this is because the only thing that's really weak to water in bh is mega diancie, (compare to other ph users - xern threatens the common giratina/zyg/some ray sets, regi does a million to everything with facade) so ogre really struggles to get those first quiver dances. scald/moonblast is disappointingly weak considering ogre's base 180 special attack, so it often relies on sleep turns to beat offense staples like mmy even with boosts. water spout is the only set i'd use in this meta and even then it needs water resists like ph giratina, ferrothorn, and chansey gone before it can try to win. as for other offensive sets (lens/swift swim) they shouldn't play a role in its ranking if palkia is still ur - ogre/palkia are equally viable with these abilities imo because ogre is countered by imposter and palkia loses to -ates

xurk to b-
this is sad and i didn't want this to happen :( but i think xurk is pretty bad right now unfortunately. from my experience, it's best paired with cb mold breaker ttar/gyara to remove obstacles like regenvest giratina, fc chansey, and shed, but running those means that you have two breakers that lose to everything faster and give up momentum every time they click a move.

xurk on its own isn't the best of mons, too. it actually needs fleur cannon because 60% on giratina just isn't enough, but at the same time it wants ice beam to beat regenvest zyg. it also can't afford to run modest because otherwise 252 speed giratina outruns it and can recover even if it switches in on fleur cannon. regenvest dialga effortlessly walls it (earth power does 55), imposter walls it, every offensive mon except like triage ray checks it, every team has an electric resist and it needs prediction to get anything done in the first place. drop him :(

celesteela to b
i've been running two celesteela sets recently: fc and ff. fc celesteela is decent because it counters most mmx sets and hard walls ph regi, but ff celesteela is even better. this mon blanket checks guys like mega diancie, mega ray, mega sceptile, and ph xern all in one slot without having to worry about ground coverage (no one runs arrows anymore). something i don't like about it is that it's forced to run defog (i can't explain why but it is) so it kinda struggles w moveslots. it's a very good steel though so it should def be b

nihilego to d
now i got nothing against ml for using this a while ago but i just don't see any use for it in the current meta.

unless it has levitate, everything offensive either carries stab/coverage for it (psychics, earth power ph xern/ray, pblades mega diancie, ogre, doom desire dialga) or just brute forces it with strong attacks (kyuw, contrary mscept, ph regi, other physical attackers like kartana). even if you have revelation dance, qd normalize gengar wins because judgment 2hkos at +1 (including vs +spdef) and nihilego does 26 in return after qd.

levitate does help nihilego beat stuff like fairies and special ray, but even with it lego still loses to everything else. i think it belongs more with really niche stuff that can work like muk-a instead of with mons like magearna.

 

[cityscapes]

ok sorry for the double post but i just finished this

introducing the BH SETPEDIA DAMAGE CALC IMPORTABLE

having to manually type abilities, evs and moves into the damage calculator isn't just tedious, it also wastes precious time in big tournament games. but with these custom sets imported, you don't have to do any of that: instead, you can simply type in the desired pokemon and a set with 252 evs, a common bh ability, and attacks the pokemon uses will pop up automatically!

instructions:
1) copy the text in the below hide tag
2) go to https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
3) paste the text into the "import/export" box on the bottom
4) click the import button to import all the sets. they'll last until you clear your cookies i'm pretty sure

large number of sets within

BH Utility (Aegislash) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Core Enforcer

BH Utility (Arceus) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Knock Off
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

BH Offensive Poison Heal (Arceus) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Spectral Thief
- Avalanche

BH Utility (Audino-Mega) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Moonblast
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief

BH RegenVest Pivot (Celesteela) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike
- Core Enforcer
- Beak Blast
- U-turn

BH Imposter (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fake Out
- Anchor Shot
- Milk Drink
- Final Gambit

BH Fur Coat (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Spectral Thief
- Knock Off
- U-turn

BH RegenVest (Cresselia) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Revelation Dance

BH Prankster (Cresselia) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Poison Fang
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer

BH Shell Smash Sweeper (Deoxys-Attack) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Power Trip
- Photon Geyser
- Moongeist Beam
- Secret Sword

BH Contrary (Deoxys-Attack) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 SpD
- Psycho Boost
- V-create
- Moongeist Beam
- Fleur Cannon

BH Lead Hazard Setter (Deoxys-Speed) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Psycho Boost
- Explosion

BH RegenVest Pivot (Dialga) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- U-Turn

BH Tail Glow (Dialga) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Doom Desire
- Revelation Dance
- Blue Flare

BH Mixed Pixilate (Diancie-Mega) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- V-create

BH Magic Guard (Diancie-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Light of Ruin
- Head Smash
- Mind Blown
- Volt Tackle

BH Contrary (Diancie-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- V-create
- Moongeist Beam
- Leaf Storm

BH Flash Fire Wall (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- U-Turn
- Core Enforcer
- Knock Off

BH Choice Band (Garchomp-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Precipice Blades
- Dragon Hammer
- Pursuit

BH Choice Scarf (Garchomp-Mega) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Precipice Blades
- Dragon Hammer
- Pursuit

BH Mixed Adaptability (Garchomp-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Draco Meteor
- Precipice Blades
- Dragon Hammer

BH Normalize (Gengar-Mega) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Moongeist Beam
- Revelation Dance

BH Spooky Plate Sweeper (Gengar-Mega) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Sludge Wave
- Pursuit

BH Adaptability (Gengar-Mega) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Secret Sword
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

BH Poison Heal (Giratina) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Dragon Tail
- U-Turn

BH Comatose (Giratina) @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Dragon Tail
- U-Turn

BH Fur Coat (Giratina) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- U-Turn
- Knock Off

BH RegenVest (Giratina) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Beak Blast
- U-turn

BH Red Orb (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
- Draco Meteor
- Sacred Fire

BH Defensive (Gyarados-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Darkest Lariat
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn
- Anchor Shot

BH Offensive Poison Heal (Gyarados-Mega) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Trip

BH Shell Smash (Gyarados-Mega) @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Hammer
- Power Trip
- Sunsteel Strike
- Close Combat

BH RegenVest (Gyarados-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Spectral Thief
- Pursuit
- U-turn

BH Choice Band (Gyarados-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Pursuit
- U-Turn

BH Sweeper (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stored Power
- Photon Geyser
- Power Trip
- Close Combat

BH RegenVest (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Pursuit

BH Stallbreaker (Kangaskhan-Mega) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Night Shade
- Seismic Toss
- Pursuit
- Extreme Speed

BH Unburden Sweeper (Kartana) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Lash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Sacred Fire
- Thousand Arrows

BH Steelworker (Kartana) @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Thousand Arrows
- Power Whip
- V-Create

BH Triage (Kartana) @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Horn Leech
- Thousand Arrows
- Drain Punch

BH Refrigerate (Kyurem-Black) @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- V-create

BH Skill Link (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Bone Rush
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Seed

BH Choice Specs Refrigerate (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Secret Sword
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch

BH Contrary (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Moongeist Beam

BH Sheer Force (Kyurem-White) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Core Enforcer
- Blue Flare
- Thunderbolt

BH Defensive (Kyogre-Primal) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer

BH RegenVest (Kyogre-Primal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Revelation Dance
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Volt Switch

BH Offensive Poison Heal (Kyogre-Primal) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Water Spout
- Moonblast
- Core Enforcer

BH Choice Specs Wallbreaker (Kyogre-Primal) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Steam Eruption
- Freeze-Dry
- Volt Switch

BH Magic Bounce (Magearna) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Moonblast
- Anchor Shot
- U-turn

BH Choice Band (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

BH Sweeper (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Power Trip
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Stored Power

BH Contrary (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Psycho Boost
- V-create
- Sunsteel Strike

BH Mixed Technician (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Storm Throw
- Frost Breath
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off

BH Mixed -Ate (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike

BH Poison Heal (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Photon Geyser

BH Choice Specs Wallbreaker (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Psycho Boost
- Fleur Cannon
- Moongeist Beam

BH Shell Smash Sweeper (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast
- Stored Power

BH Sheer Force (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Bolt Strike

BH Contrary (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Moongeist Beam
- Fleur Cannon

BH RegenVest Pivot (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

BH Unburden (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Precipice Blades

BH Flash Fire (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike
- Anchor Shot
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer

BH Choice Specs Wallbreaker (Necrozma-Ultra) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Psystrike
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch

BH Contrary (Necrozma-Ultra) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Moongeist Beam

BH Levitate -ate check (Nihilego) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- U-turn
- Revelation Dance
- Poison Fang
- Spectral Thief

BH Sand Special Wall (Nihilego) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Core Enforcer
- Revelation Dance
- U-turn
- Poison Fang

BH Mixed Aerilate (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Sky Plate
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Thousand Arrows

BH Choice Specs Aerilate (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Secret Sword
- Volt Switch

BH Triage (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Moongeist Beam
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain

BH Contrary (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- V-create
- Leaf Storm
- Superpower

BH Tough Claws (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Hammer
- V-create
- U-turn

BH Tinted Lens (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Core Enforcer
- Oblivion Wing
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch

BH Shell Smash Sweeper (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Sunsteel Strike
- Precipice Blades
- Sacred Fire

BH Quick Feet (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Ice Beam
- Moongeist Beam
- Earth Power

BH Poison Heal Sweeper (Regigigas) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Avalanche
- Sunsteel Strike

BH He Has No Style (Slaking) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Avalanche
- Sunsteel Strike

BH Utility (Registeel) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- U-Turn

BH RegenVest (Registeel) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Poison Fang
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer

BH Physical Wall (Sableye-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer
- Knock Off
- Spectral Thief

BH A Bug's Life (Shedinja) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Shard
- U-turn

BH Contrary (Sceptile-Mega) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Leaf Storm
- Overheat
- Moongeist Beam

BH Sheer Force (Sceptile-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Blue Flare
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

BH Choice Specs Wallbreaker (Sceptile-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Seed Flare
- Precipice Blades
- Volt Switch

BH Soundproof (Sceptile-Mega) @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Sparkling Aria

BH Defensive Pivot (Slowbro-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Scald
- Core Enforcer
- U-Turn
- Knock Off

BH RegenVest Pivot (Solgaleo) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 232 Spe
Careful Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

BH Unburden (Solgaleo) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Sunsteel Strike
- Icicle Crash
- Precipice Blades

BH Flash Fire (Solgaleo) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Volt Switch

BH Physical Wall (Swampert-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- U-turn
- Thousand Waves
- Crabhammer

BH Physical Wall (Tapu Fini) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- U-Turn
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
- Knock Off

BH Sand Stream (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Icicle Spear
- U-turn
- Pursuit

BH RegenVest (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Rock Blast

BH Shell Smash Sweeper (Tyranitar-Mega) @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Trip
- Sunsteel Strike
- Close Combat
- V-create

BH Poison Heal (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm
- Avalanche

BH Offensive Poison Heal (Xerneas) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Magma Storm

BH Defensive Pivot (Xerneas) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- U-Turn

BH Pixilate (Xerneas) @ Earth Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Extreme Speed

BH Contrary (Xerneas) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- V-create
- Earth Power
- Superpower

BH Galvanize (Xurkitree) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch

BH Poison Heal (Yveltal) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Revelation Dance
- U-turn
- Beak Blast
- Knock Off

BH Defensive (Yveltal) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Beak Blast
- U-turn

BH Setup Sweeper (Yveltal) @ White Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Power Trip
- Sunsteel Strike
- Ice Hammer

BH RegenVest Pivot (Yveltal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
Careful Nature
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

BH Draco Plate Galvanize (Zekrom) @ Draco Plate
Ability: Galvanize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fake Out
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Judgment

BH Mixed Adaptability (Zekrom) @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Draco Meteor
- Sunsteel Strike
- Precipice Blades

BH Refrigerate Unset (Zekrom) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Bolt Strike
- Boomburst

BH Defensive Pivot (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn
- Thousand Waves

BH RegenVest Pivot (Zygarde-Complete) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn

BH Fur Coat (Zygarde-Complete) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Tail
- U-Turn

BH Poison Heal (Zygarde-Complete) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sacred Fire

pastebin if it's easier to copy from there:
https://pastebin.com/2V0ncEca
(first version can be accessed at https://pastebin.com/wkWreumE but i mean why would you do that)


DISCLAIMER: these are not actual sets. for efficiency's sake non-damaging and primarily utility (like rapid spin) aren't included because they serve little to no purpose in a damage calculator. if i see you using no recovery audino i will break into your house and steal your computer. use the setpedia if you want actual sets

DISCLAIMER 2: there might be errors in this. if you find any tell me and i will fix them

 

[Champion Leon]

primal kyogre to a
i really don't like primal kyogre in the meta right now. defensive sets only provide the team with three resistances, and even then they struggle to take strong resisted attacks like red orb don's v-create. ogre is bad at walling all three of the offensive threats in s rank: mmx steamrolls it with geyser, mmy wins with sheer force or contrary geyser/leaf storm, pretty much all mray sets except triage lacking giga drain can break ogre. mega gengar is the first mon i'd really say it "walls"

offensive ph ogre is a really unreliable sweeper. this is because the only thing that's really weak to water in bh is mega diancie, (compare to other ph users - xern threatens the common giratina/zyg/some ray sets, regi does a million to everything with facade) so ogre really struggles to get those first quiver dances. scald/moonblast is disappointingly weak considering ogre's base 180 special attack, so it often relies on sleep turns to beat offense staples like mmy even with boosts. water spout is the only set i'd use in this meta and even then it needs water resists like ph giratina, ferrothorn, and chansey gone before it can try to win. as for other offensive sets (lens/swift swim) they shouldn't play a role in its ranking if palkia is still ur - ogre/palkia are equally viable with these abilities imo because ogre is countered by imposter and palkia loses to -ates

xurk to b-
this is sad and i didn't want this to happen :( but i think xurk is pretty bad right now unfortunately. from my experience, it's best paired with cb mold breaker ttar/gyara to remove obstacles like regenvest giratina, fc chansey, and shed, but running those means that you have two breakers that lose to everything faster and give up momentum every time they click a move.

xurk on its own isn't the best of mons, too. it actually needs fleur cannon because 60% on giratina just isn't enough, but at the same time it wants ice beam to beat regenvest zyg. it also can't afford to run modest because otherwise 252 speed giratina outruns it and can recover even if it switches in on fleur cannon. regenvest dialga effortlessly walls it (earth power does 55), imposter walls it, every offensive mon except like triage ray checks it, every team has an electric resist and it needs prediction to get anything done in the first place. drop him :(

celesteela to b
i've been running two celesteela sets recently: fc and ff. fc celesteela is decent because it counters most mmx sets and hard walls ph regi, but ff celesteela is even better. this mon blanket checks guys like mega diancie, mega ray, mega sceptile, and ph xern all in one slot without having to worry about ground coverage (no one runs arrows anymore). something i don't like about it is that it's forced to run defog (i can't explain why but it is) so it kinda struggles w moveslots. it's a very good steel though so it should def be b

nihilego to d
now i got nothing against ml for using this a while ago but i just don't see any use for it in the current meta.

unless it has levitate, everything offensive either carries stab/coverage for it (psychics, earth power ph xern/ray, pblades mega diancie, ogre, doom desire dialga) or just brute forces it with strong attacks (kyuw, contrary mscept, ph regi, other physical attackers like kartana). even if you have revelation dance, qd normalize gengar wins because judgment 2hkos at +1 (including vs +spdef) and nihilego does 26 in return after qd.

levitate does help nihilego beat stuff like fairies and special ray, but even with it lego still loses to everything else. i think it belongs more with really niche stuff that can work like muk-a instead of with mons like magearna.

Kyogre resists 4 Types: Steel (Sunsteel Strike, Doom Desire), Fire (V-Create, Mind Blown, Overheat, Blue Flare), Ice (Sheer Force Ice Beam, No Guard Blizzard, Frost Breathe, Refrigerate, Icicle Crash, Ice Hammer), and Water (Steam Eruption, Scald, Crab Hammer, Etc.)
You mentioned 3.

Hide

While this won’t suddenly change things, options to consider for offensive Kyogre include changing forms: The Weather Boost powers up Steam Eruption and prevents Fire moves, and enables Thunder and Hurricane. Secondarily, the Base form can prevent Imposter, block Status, and / or empower your moves.

For offensive sets, I think Illusion or Download Blue Orb is a good option. With Shell Smash for Steam Eruption, Power Trip, and a Filler.

With Illusion, it cannot be Impostered, while with Download Power Trip’s Base Power is boosted to 160 after a Shell Smash and with an impressive 150 Base Attack with 160 Base Power Power, it’ll deal 320 Base Power to Giratina, MMY, Lugia, and Aegislash).

Don’t forget, in either Base form set, it also boosts Steam Eruption under the Primal weather boost, and shuts down Fire moves like Contrary V-Create.

I sometimes opt for a lower Speed Nature to avoid Spectral Thief but it is completely your choice.

Haze, Destiny Bond, and Prankster Spore is an issue, but what can you do? Unless you pack Imprison?

Alternatively you could opt for Thunder and Electric Surge as its Base form, to avoid Spore and power up 100% accurate Thunders. Now, although coverage can feel limited it does give it a way around Gyarados-Mega.

 

[Chessking345]

I believe the offensive non PH POgre sets are either PSea or Tinted as they have the most raw power and Blue Orb TBH is pretty bad as Download is a one time thing while Illusion doesn't have much power behind it. The PSea set requires no team support (apart from Improof and most likely an improof for the improof) but is weaker overall (Against Tina and opposing POgre) whereas the Tinted set on its own pressures resists (mainly Tina) but missing out on neutral OHKOs such as MAud and Regi. However, under rain there are next to 0 switch-ins to a 150 BP Water Spout, the only ones I can think of are Water Immune (Desoland mainly), Drought users (super rare), Other Weather users that resist, RegenVest Palkia (Takes a chunk though), and Imposter (with eviolite). Personally I like PSea and run Water Spout, Water Shuriken, Volt Switch, Moonblast and improof with PDon.
TBH POgre shouldn't really drop as it is one of the strongest defensive mons and is one of the few mons that can run both offensive sets and defensive sets, making it unpredictable. In addition, its special bulk is really good and its RegenVest sets can blanket check most special attackers (bar Psystrike and Mixed attackers) whereas the Unaware set can check some set up sweepers (not resisting Moongeist Geyser is unfortunate which is why MGyara is probably better). Its offensive variants can easily break teams that lack answers which, since it is pretty unique in terms of typing and stat spread, often require a specific answer.