Ladder Balanced Hackmons

DinaIsha You're overreacting and blowing things up way out of proportion. This isn't the first time Moody and Stored Power have been mentioned. They've been brought up since Gen V.

First, yes, I say "the meta will adapt." Because, if Moody became big, it would. Why is this important? Everything that's been banned thus far, or is currently being suspected, the meta attempted to adapt to. But either the adaptations weren't enough and the thing didn't care (Huge Power, Parental Bond, etc.) or the thing out-adapted the adaptations, constantly staying one step ahead and requiring different adaptations to handle it, which it then out-adapts (-ate and Protean are doing this). We've had lots of cancer sets come and go and the meta adapted to deal with them and shut them down: Lightningrod Gengar, Protean Deo-A, Doom Desire Diagla + Magnet Pull Diancie, and even Shedinja, who becomes a liability when the meta reacts to whenever its common, to name a few. But pretty much any fad/meme set that comes along for a month or so and then poofs counts.

So, the meta will adapt to Moody. If the adaptations don't work, then it's a problem. If they work, then it was a simply case of Moody exploiting a gap in the current meta's primary team building.

So, second, on to other things, using 860 power Stored Power is a pointless argument. Moody gives two boosts and then one drop every turn, so effectively Stored Power goes up 40 on the first turn and then has a chance to go up 40 every turn, otherwise it goes up 20, with the chance of getting a +40 going down the longer its in. Optimal situation? Three turns, which is fairly quick, but you might not get there as quickly. Either way, in a meta that allows stuff like Tail Glow, that's rather slow. If they can't answer your set-up in three-six turns, depending on how generous Moody is being, they probably weren't able to stop it to begin with and their team is weak to your strategy. (Which, in a tier full of insta-nukes, not having answers to set-up sweeping isn't all to surprising.) Or they didn't respect your set, in which case they deserve the loss. And 860? Twenty-one friggin' turns for Moody to get that powerful on Stored Power at optimal speed! And longer, really, because once you have a boost in everything, you'll only go up 20 PP per turn. If your Moody sweeper takes that long, then you're either dicking around or your sweeper isn't going to break through to begin with.

Third, you shoot down all my checks as if they're nothing, but, really, you're being unnecessarily dismissive. Heart Swap to Stored Power or Baton Pass is a great check to Moody. Why? Because it also checks Contrary, Simple, Acupressure, Baton Pass chains, Belly Drum, and pretty much any and all other set-up. It requires two Pokemon, yes, but it checks and spectacularly counters a whole sleuth of set-up threats. Two Pokemon checking/countering twenty, yet probably many, many more potential sets, is a friggin' win in my book. Unaware Sweepers, while traditionally uncommon, will destroy Moody and slow set-up. Lets say... Unaware Kyogre sets-up two Q. Dances after you've had three turns of boosting...

+2 252+ SpA Unaware Kyogre Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (180 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Kyogre: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Welp, GG Mewtwo. And this assumes you don't get any drops to your current stats. And I was being generous here and making the Kyogre player slow to respond by a turn and assumed optimal boost speed for Mewtwo.

"But what if they don't switch in right away?" Then they didn't respect your set and deserve the loss. Simple.

Also, Unaware Yveltal would probably be the most ideal anti-Stored Moody option. Sure, Moonblast, but counter-sure, Q. Dance, Amnesia, and Cosmic Power.

Moving on, Prankster D. Bond, yes it can be predictable, but are you sure that's what the Prankster is running? There's dozens of viable Prankster sets without the move. Besides, if you don't know they have it and must assume they do, Destiny Bond can be bluffed and force you out, keeping you from getting momentum. And if you do know they have it, and you know you have to play very carefully around it until you can remove it, which puts a lot of pressure on your sweeper because it can't sweep while D. Bond PP are remaining. Then there's also the D. Bond to Whirlwind strategy mentioned above, which works wonderfully.

But yeah, other checks to Moody: Shedinja (yes, Moldy, but any Sheddy player is prepared for Moldy), Imposter if your Sub is down, Perish Song, Entrainment/Skill Swap, Ghost-curse, Toxic Spikes, -ates before you get going, really anything very offensive you can't switch into, status to some degree, No Guard to some degree, Infiltrator to some degree, Taunt/Encore to some degree, and any residual damage that gets past your sub, provided the using team is sufficiently stally. Some of these are currently uncommon to rare, but worth considering since, if Moody became meta, they might be seen more often.


Also, you need to compare good walls. Audino is decent, but its used mostly for typing since its defensive stats are merely above average at best. Fur Coat Chansey is tough, but it's meant for stuff like -ates, not set-up sweepers, so of course its going to get blasted through. That has always been the case.

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 120-141 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 120-141 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Registeel: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 23.7% chance to 3HKO

Registeel is extremely common, so you gotta break this guy. And if it's Magic Bounce + Whirlwind, you're not breaking him unless you get really lucky with Sp. A boosts, even if you have Taunt or super-effective coverage.


Finally, luck. Your moody is not reliable. You might spend your first four turns getting nothing but Accuracy or Sp. A drops, which will cripple your Pokemon pretty hard. Or you might get all the right boosts while only losing Attack. Eventually you'll have a bunch of boosts but, again, you should have already won by the time you get there if the opponent cannot stop you. Now, if you want to argue that Moody is too luck based and devolves the game in a similar fashion like Evasion-spam, I can maybe get behind that, particularly because Moody can boost Evasion. But if you want to argue it's too powerful, well... see above.



So yeah... that was way longer than expected.
 
DinaIsha You're overreacting and blowing things up way out of proportion. This isn't the first time Moody and Stored Power have been mentioned. They've been brought up since Gen V.

First, yes, I say "the meta will adapt." Because, if Moody became big, it would. Why is this important? Everything that's been banned thus far, or is currently being suspected, the meta attempted to adapt to. But either the adaptations weren't enough and the thing didn't care (Huge Power, Parental Bond, etc.) or the thing out-adapted the adaptations, constantly staying one step ahead and requiring different adaptations to handle it, which it then out-adapts (-ate and Protean are doing this). We've had lots of cancer sets come and go and the meta adapted to deal with them and shut them down: Lightningrod Gengar, Protean Deo-A, Doom Desire Diagla + Magnet Pull Diancie, and even Shedinja, who becomes a liability when the meta reacts to whenever its common, to name a few. But pretty much any fad/meme set that comes along for a month or so and then poofs counts.

So, the meta will adapt to Moody. If the adaptations don't work, then it's a problem. If they work, then it was a simply case of Moody exploiting a gap in the current meta's primary team building.
This is really all the reason we need not to do anything about Moody right now. Moody hasn't proved that its a real threat in the metagame, unlike Chatter and Evasion. When Chatter was meta, people tried to adapt to the various Chatter users. The answers (Soundproof and Own Tempo) were incredibly niche, and could still be beaten without much difficulty because just about any special attacker could run Chatter as coverage. BH is supposed to strive for the least possible impact in regard to bans, so we don't just ban things because they can be highly luck based. They have to be difficult to adapt to as well.

And again, in the scheme of things, Moody isn't a huge issue at the moment. There is far more pressing problems for BH, and once those issues have been dealt with maybe we can resume this discussion.
 
Obviously, I'm a fan, but recently I've been seeing an overly large amount of unwarranted bashing on and hating of Pikachu as well as bad arguments defending it, with both those who defend it and those who attack it not seeming to understand what it does and what it doesn't do. I thought I'd try and explain its benefits and disadvantages here, so that any talk about it has at least an idea of what its trying to do
-made with help/input/critique from Kingslayer and Awailofatail-


-Pikachu isn't a win button- it isn't something you slap on teams and have win you battles. Unlike offensive threats like MRay, Pikachu is hard to get the hang of and in many battles performs far below its theoretical potential, even in the hands of skilled players.
-Pikachu isn't reliable. For the most part, its reliant on winning speed ties. While there are a few times where this isn't the case (see Fakespeed, Diancie, Bulky Offense), if Pikachu loses the tie it cant just power through.
-Pikachu isn't Chansey. You can't pivot it in, it doesn't behave like a traditional impostor, and it isn't really a block to setup sweepers
-Pikachu isn't unwallable. It really isn't; its just much harder to block.
-Pikachu isn't really useful vs stall. In that kind of a matchup, its dead weight, unlike Chansey who beats them at their own game.

However, a pretty standard -ate+ Mewtwo-Mega + 4 bulky Pokemon team would struggle greatly if it's not built with Pikachu in mind. It does do a really good job when used properly, as it has BARELY passable bulk (but still passable). It can take a hit under the correct circumstances, which aren't too difficult to attain, and it can do major damage to another team. These sorts of teams are the most common that I've seen, and Pikachu can utterly demolish them. That's where Pikachu gets its viability from.

So no, Pikachu is not dead weight. No, it is not the most broken thing in BH. (Just clearing this up in case some people think so.) Yes, it does in fact deserve some usage, but I do think that it doesn't quite fit on as many teams as believed.

In a way, Pikachu limits teambuilder in the same way that Shedinja does. Might not be the absolute perfect analogy, but it needs pivots and other ways to counter the opponent. The Pokemon it does end up with are usually very adept at their job and not just there because of Pikachu. I think that the miscommunication is that it's more useful as an Imposter than Chansey, but that point can't really be made if they have completely different roles. I will not use Pikachu because of my playstyle and preferences, but Pikachu is a force to be reckoned with. It can't simply be slapped onto a team, but it can still be a major player in a match.

-One thing Pikachu is a threat to the opponents victory. Many bulky offense mons such as def invested PDon w/ synthesis, tarrows, and sacred fire, for instance, can wall any imposter while threatening the opponents team. You just can't deal enough damage to it to break it, and you run out of PP much faster than it does.
0 Atk Light Ball Pikachu (Groudon) Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Pikachu, that's no longer an issue. It just powers through your bulk and goes for the 2HKO
-Another thing Pikachu is is imposterproofing hell. While Giratina might wall your MMX just fine, Pikachu does 65% minimum with precipice blades, making it no longer a reliable switchin to imposter. While it's too uncommon to really effect teambuilding, if you want your wall to beat a Pikachu imposter you require a whole other level of redundancy, which can often only be found in immunities. For instance, Soundproof Megabro can't switch in on impostered ates (Bar Kyurems) despite having a titanic 180 defense.
-Thirdly, Pikachu puts on pressure while battling. In many cases, your opponent becomes unable to bring in their most powerful mons, simply because they cant stop a countersweep. Teams that struggle with those, therefore, can often have that eased.
-The most important thing Pikachu does, however, is offer a win condition. If you can break down the perhaps 1 hard counter they have to their sweeper just a little, you have a way to easily turn the battle around even if their team is mostly intact and yours is in ruins

Pikachu, like it or not, needs support- far more than that required by traditional impostors. It needs a way to come in, multiple times on opposing threats- whether this takes the form of voltturn/pivoting or hyper offense is unimportant, but Pikachu lives and dies by the switches it causes.
It also needs the standard support of all imposters- walls/rkers for Gengar and Protein MMY, mold breaker or hazards for Shedinja, and stall/wallbreakers to take on stall. TTar counters/checks are also generally useful.
Multiple (usually 2) Pikachus are often advisable despite the teamslots taken as having a second shot brings it that much closer to actual reliability.

There are obviously a bunch of other great things like glare support and lure sets to take on things like Flash Fire Aegislash, but overall aren't required to function. As a rule of thumb, Pikachu needs specialized support, but most of what it wants is otherwise viable.

Bring it in on things it KOs but fail to KO it, like
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pikachu: 183-216 (66.7 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
, magic guard Ho-Oh,
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pikachu: 217-256 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and really any pokemon that both threatens itself and its team.
Pikachu is strong enough that in many cases simply clicking an attack to smack the switching will work to wear them down- don't try and get fancy with predictions unless you need to.
It's a glass cannon, so treat it as such. Don't manually switch it unless you are sacking it or have no other choice

-Don't use Pikachu because of its power, use it because you know for certain it benefits you more than Chansey would. Some of these situations are:
  • When the pokemon that threaten your team beat Chansey, or are easily imposterproofed by viable pokemon
  • When you already have the support it needs like a voltturn core or stallbreaking so it isn't a burden
  • When your team struggles with powerful offense, especially offense that carries priority
  • When you find your team good at weakening things, but not so much at taking them out


tl;dr- Pikachu is a highly specialized Pokemon that needs support and skill to function, but it's unrivaled at its job and highly useful on many teams.

If there is something you still disagree with please let me know, but I feel Pikachu has so bad a rep that people aren't actually considering whether or not its viable and instead tear it down on the general principle.
 
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Every top team has either Unaware, Sturdinja, M-Ttar, Prankster, -ate.
Many have atleast 2 of the above mentioned. Why ?

From oldschool BH;
Set Up Wonder;
Hoopa-B
Trait: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Shell Smash
- Cotton Guard / Filter
- Stored Power
- Hyperspace Fury/ Sucker Punch/ Spikes / Filter

It can beat Chansey if it wins the speedtie or if Chansey switches in as it boosts.
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa Unbound Bug Buzz vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 696-820 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Only M-Latias(SD), M-Latios(+SpD+SD), M-Metagross, Arceus-Steel/Registeel (AV) can take a hit.
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa Unbound Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Latias: 306-361 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

MMY is even stronger; right now you can make a Simple Smash set and wreck really hard;
+4 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Latias: 340-401 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+4 252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (260 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 702-827 (99.8 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

For top players, thats not enough. They want get most information and be save regardless of anything.
Moody offers them this; sit back and scout their team, while having solid offensive pressure and waiting for opportunities.

I prefered hazards in 4th moveslot on Simple/Moody Stored Power sweepers.
They function the same but operate different so to speak.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Really the entire post but mainly:

tl;dr- Pikachu is a highly specialized Pokemon that needs support and skill to function, but it's unrivaled at its job and highly useful on many teams
It's also definitely worth mentioning that its utility depends very heavily on the other team. Against a hyper-offense team, where there are multiple priority users, it might not have the best of times. Sure, it can still be useful, but maybe not as useful as against a balanced team. The same goes for stall; even with a Light Ball, my Audino-Mega's Knock Off isn't putting any dents into my own team.

However, a pretty standard -ate+ Mewtwo-Mega + 4 bulky Pokemon team would struggle greatly if it's not built with Pikachu in mind. It does do a really good job when used properly, as it has BARELY passable bulk (but still passable). It can take a hit under the correct circumstances, which aren't too difficult to attain, and it can do major damage to another team. These sorts of teams are the most common that I've seen, and Pikachu can utterly demolish them. That's where Pikachu gets its viability from.

So no, Pikachu is not dead weight. No, it is not the most broken thing in BH. (Just clearing this up in case some people think so.) Yes, it does in fact deserve some usage, but I do think that it doesn't quite fit on as many teams as believed.

In a way, Pikachu limits teambuilder in the same way that Shedinja does. Might not be the absolute perfect analogy, but it needs pivots and other ways to counter the opponent. The Pokemon it does end up with are usually very adept at their job and not just there because of Pikachu. I think that the miscommunication is that it's more useful as an Imposter than Chansey, but that point can't really be made if they have completely different roles. I will not use Pikachu because of my playstyle and preferences, but Pikachu is a force to be reckoned with. It can't simply be slapped onto a team, but it can still be a major player in a match.

I guess tl;dr don't use Pikachu because "it's super strong," use it because you know for certain it benefits you more than Chansey would. I wouldn't recommend it for new players, either, as it takes a completely different strategy that can be difficult to learn without knowing much about BH (like quantum said)
 
DinaIsha You're overreacting and blowing things up way out of proportion. This isn't the first time Moody and Stored Power have been mentioned. They've been brought up since Gen V.

First, yes, I say "the meta will adapt." Because, if Moody became big, it would. Why is this important? Everything that's been banned thus far, or is currently being suspected, the meta attempted to adapt to. But either the adaptations weren't enough and the thing didn't care (Huge Power, Parental Bond, etc.) or the thing out-adapted the adaptations, constantly staying one step ahead and requiring different adaptations to handle it, which it then out-adapts (-ate and Protean are doing this). We've had lots of cancer sets come and go and the meta adapted to deal with them and shut them down: Lightningrod Gengar, Protean Deo-A, Doom Desire Diagla + Magnet Pull Diancie, and even Shedinja, who becomes a liability when the meta reacts to whenever its common, to name a few. But pretty much any fad/meme set that comes along for a month or so and then poofs counts.

So, the meta will adapt to Moody. If the adaptations don't work, then it's a problem. If they work, then it was a simply case of Moody exploiting a gap in the current meta's primary team building.

So, second, on to other things, using 860 power Stored Power is a pointless argument. Moody gives two boosts and then one drop every turn, so effectively Stored Power goes up 40 on the first turn and then has a chance to go up 40 every turn, otherwise it goes up 20, with the chance of getting a +40 going down the longer its in. Optimal situation? Three turns, which is fairly quick, but you might not get there as quickly. Either way, in a meta that allows stuff like Tail Glow, that's rather slow. If they can't answer your set-up in three-six turns, depending on how generous Moody is being, they probably weren't able to stop it to begin with and their team is weak to your strategy. (Which, in a tier full of insta-nukes, not having answers to set-up sweeping isn't all to surprising.) Or they didn't respect your set, in which case they deserve the loss. And 860? Twenty-one friggin' turns for Moody to get that powerful on Stored Power at optimal speed! And longer, really, because once you have a boost in everything, you'll only go up 20 PP per turn. If your Moody sweeper takes that long, then you're either dicking around or your sweeper isn't going to break through to begin with.

Third, you shoot down all my checks as if they're nothing, but, really, you're being unnecessarily dismissive. Heart Swap to Stored Power or Baton Pass is a great check to Moody. Why? Because it also checks Contrary, Simple, Acupressure, Baton Pass chains, Belly Drum, and pretty much any and all other set-up. It requires two Pokemon, yes, but it checks and spectacularly counters a whole sleuth of set-up threats. Two Pokemon checking/countering twenty, yet probably many, many more potential sets, is a friggin' win in my book. Unaware Sweepers, while traditionally uncommon, will destroy Moody and slow set-up. Lets say... Unaware Kyogre sets-up two Q. Dances after you've had three turns of boosting...

+2 252+ SpA Unaware Kyogre Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 273-322 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (180 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Kyogre: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Welp, GG Mewtwo. And this assumes you don't get any drops to your current stats. And I was being generous here and making the Kyogre player slow to respond by a turn and assumed optimal boost speed for Mewtwo.

"But what if they don't switch in right away?" Then they didn't respect your set and deserve the loss. Simple.

Also, Unaware Yveltal would probably be the most ideal anti-Stored Moody option. Sure, Moonblast, but counter-sure, Q. Dance, Amnesia, and Cosmic Power.

Moving on, Prankster D. Bond, yes it can be predictable, but are you sure that's what the Prankster is running? There's dozens of viable Prankster sets without the move. Besides, if you don't know they have it and must assume they do, Destiny Bond can be bluffed and force you out, keeping you from getting momentum. And if you do know they have it, and you know you have to play very carefully around it until you can remove it, which puts a lot of pressure on your sweeper because it can't sweep while D. Bond PP are remaining. Then there's also the D. Bond to Whirlwind strategy mentioned above, which works wonderfully.

But yeah, other checks to Moody: Shedinja (yes, Moldy, but any Sheddy player is prepared for Moldy), Imposter if your Sub is down, Perish Song, Entrainment/Skill Swap, Ghost-curse, Toxic Spikes, -ates before you get going, really anything very offensive you can't switch into, status to some degree, No Guard to some degree, Infiltrator to some degree, Taunt/Encore to some degree, and any residual damage that gets past your sub, provided the using team is sufficiently stally. Some of these are currently uncommon to rare, but worth considering since, if Moody became meta, they might be seen more often.


Also, you need to compare good walls. Audino is decent, but its used mostly for typing since its defensive stats are merely above average at best. Fur Coat Chansey is tough, but it's meant for stuff like -ates, not set-up sweepers, so of course its going to get blasted through. That has always been the case.

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 120-141 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 120-141 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Registeel: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 23.7% chance to 3HKO

Registeel is extremely common, so you gotta break this guy. And if it's Magic Bounce + Whirlwind, you're not breaking him unless you get really lucky with Sp. A boosts, even if you have Taunt or super-effective coverage.


Finally, luck. Your moody is not reliable. You might spend your first four turns getting nothing but Accuracy or Sp. A drops, which will cripple your Pokemon pretty hard. Or you might get all the right boosts while only losing Attack. Eventually you'll have a bunch of boosts but, again, you should have already won by the time you get there if the opponent cannot stop you. Now, if you want to argue that Moody is too luck based and devolves the game in a similar fashion like Evasion-spam, I can maybe get behind that, particularly because Moody can boost Evasion. But if you want to argue it's too powerful, well... see above.



So yeah... that was way longer than expected.
1. Stored Power does not take into account Stat drops. Fact check. So, if there's a +2 in Accuracy, +2 in Defense, +2 in Evasion, -1 in Speed and -2 in Attack, the BP is 140 and not 80 as you seem to assume.

2. A considerable amount of Moody users also run Magma Storm (For Steel Types and Shedinja, both of which are headaches for Moody mons).

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) - No SpA Stat Increase, as you'd want it. This means Registeel is taking ~53% and a 6.25% extra on passive damage. That's a ~60% right off the bat. What's sad here is, even if Registeel tries to Recover health, switch out or do whatever, it only gives the Moody user more turns, which of course means Stored Power's BP keeps on increasing, making it more difficult to put an end to.

3. I like how you underplay SpA boosts when they're likely to happen as well. That's the entire point I'm trying to make, how ridiculous it can get. See the calcs.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) - See this? That's a fully invested Registeel taking a resisted hit. Magma Storm here is a clean KO, as you can imagine.

4. I agree that Moody is not reliable. But so was Chatter. Chatter confuses 100%, fine. But it does not guarantee that the Pokemon will not Attack that turn. The point is not how unlucky it can get, the point is how ridiculously easy it is to use and how destructive it is once it gets lucky. And once it does, there's no stopping it.

Here's a replay of Moody getting out of hand easily (And look at how, regardless of how terrible his team is and how mediocre his play, the Moody user won):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-366626392

Here's another replay where the same guy loses to multi-hit moves. In the beginning, it seems like multi-hit moves are a sure-shot way to dealing with Moody. But as you can see from the replay, Evasion is dangerous. If only he got lucky for at least one more round, he'd have proceeded to sweep:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-366631620
 
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1. Stored Power does not take into account Stat drops. Fact check. So, if there's a +2 in Accuracy, +2 in Defense, +2 in Evasion, -1 in Speed and -2 in Attack, the BP is 140 and not 80 as you seem to assume.

2. A considerable amount of Moody users also run Magma Storm (For Steel Types and Shedinja, both of which are headaches for Moody mons).

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) - no SpA Stat Increase, as you'd want it. This means Registeel is taking ~53% and a 6.25% extra on passive damage. That's a ~60% right off the bat. What's sad here is, even if Registeel tries to Recover health, switch out or do whatever, it only gives the Moody user more turns, which of course means Stored Power's BP keeps on increasing, making it more difficult to put an end to.

3. I like how you underplay SpA boosts when they're likely to happen as well. That's the entire point I'm trying to make, how ridiculous it can get. See the calcs.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) - See this? That's a fully invested Registeel taking a resisted hit. Magma Storm here is a clean KO, as you can imagine.

4. I agree that Moody is not reliable. But so was Chatter. Chatter confuses 100%, fine. But it does not guarantee that the Pokemon will not Attack that turn. The point is not how unlucky it can get, the point is how ridiculously easy it is to use and how destructive it is once it gets lucky. And once it does, there's no stopping it.

Here's a replay of Moody getting out of hand easily (And look at how, regardless of how terrible his team is and how mediocre his play, the Moody user won):

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-366626392

Here's another replay where the same guy loses to multi-hit moves. In the beginning, it seems like multi-hit moves are a sure-shot way to dealing with Moody. But as you can see from the replay, Evasion is dangerous. If only he got lucky for at least one more round, he'd have proceeded to sweep:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-366631620
1. You misunderstand. He said that if you have boosts in very stat, then it only increases by 20.
2. The point of that was just that maudino wasn't the best mon to use as an example. Should we bring in TTar?
3. 1-(5/6)^3=1-(125/216)=91/216=42' and that's not even getting into the possibilities of drops. This isn't even the point, however- that's three turns, in which you could have, say, used tail glow (like when when they switched in their wall) and been in that position anyway.if you were a protean quiver dance, for instance, you have the optimal results of three turns of moody (bar the lack of evasion over sped) without any unreliability or needing to rely on luck, as well as no lowered stats.
4. There is stopping it, and that's what they are trying to say. Chatter was unbeatable because own temps and soundproof didn't save you from the fact that they were powerful special attackers. Moody, meanwhile, has some otherwise viable sets it outright loses too, even if they switch in (or switchin after 1 turn, even.
It's also definitely worth mentioning that its utility depends very heavily on the other team. Against a hyper-offense team, where there are multiple priority users, it might not have the best of times. Sure, it can still be useful, but maybe not as useful as against a balanced team. The same goes for stall; even with a Light Ball, my Audino-Mega's Knock Off isn't putting any dents into my own team.

However, a pretty standard -ate+ Mewtwo-Mega + 4 bulky Pokemon team would struggle greatly if it's not built with Pikachu in mind. It does do a really good job when used properly, as it has BARELY passable bulk (but still passable). It can take a hit under the correct circumstances, which aren't too difficult to attain, and it can do major damage to another team. These sorts of teams are the most common that I've seen, and Pikachu can utterly demolish them. That's where Pikachu gets its viability from.

So no, Pikachu is not dead weight. No, it is not the most broken thing in BH. (Just clearing this up in case some people think so.) Yes, it does in fact deserve some usage, but I do think that it doesn't quite fit on as many teams as believed.

In a way, Pikachu limits teambuilder in the same way that Shedinja does. Might not be the absolute perfect analogy, but it needs pivots and other ways to counter the opponent. The Pokemon it does end up with are usually very adept at their job and not just there because of Pikachu. I think that the miscommunication is that it's more useful as an Imposter than Chansey, but that point can't really be made if they have completely different roles. I will not use Pikachu because of my playstyle and preferences, but Pikachu is a force to be reckoned with. It can't simply be slapped onto a team, but it can still be a major player in a match.

I guess tl;dr don't use Pikachu because "it's super strong," use it because you know for certain it benefits you more than Chansey would. I wouldn't recommend it for new players, either, as it takes a completely different strategy that can be difficult to learn without knowing much about BH (like quantum said)
Thank you :)
A couple of things. First off, it's still good vs hyper offense because their ate, or their we MRay, is still much faster than their team. They only have one ate speeder, after all, and if they don't even have that then base 115 at +1 prior is fast. Admittedly it isn't the best vs HO because it's power isn't needed as much (looking at you, chansey), but it's not anywhere near deadweight there.
Full stall is its worst nightmare. If you run Pikachu, you need wall breakers or stall breakers, no questions asked unless creaming. The rest of it is pretty much what I was trying to say, will rewrite as soon as I'm not on mobile.
 
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1. You misunderstand. He said that if you have boosts in very stat, then it only increases by 20.
2. The point of that was just that mausino wasn't the best mom to use as an example. Should we bring in TTar?
3. 1-(5/6)^3=1-(125/216)=91/216=42' and that's not even getting into the possibilities of drops. This isn't even the point, however- that's three turns, in which you could have, say, used tail glow (like when when they switched in their wall) and been in that position anyway.if you were simple quiver dance, for instance, you have the optimal results of three turns of moody (bar the lack of evasion over sped) without any unreliability or needing to rely on luck, as well as no lowered stats.
4. There is stopping it, and that's what they are trying to say. Chatter was unbeatable because own temps and soundproof didn't save you from the fact that they were powerful special attackers. Moody, meanwhile, has some otherwise viable sets it outright loses too, even if they switch in (or switchin after 1 turn, even.
1. Okay, I understood now. But that's besides the point.

2. No, we may not bring in Ttar. Nobody uses Unaware Ttar. Unaware Ttar is bopped by Moonblast and can be played around with using King's Shield.

3. I honestly didn't understand the calc you just did. And as far as QD or Tail Glow is concerned, it takes up valuable moveslot. What moveset do you propose? QD/Stored Power/Substitute/Moonblast? That's not Imposter Proof in the strictest sense. Moody gives the boosts by itself and saves up a moveslot for King's Shield, which is phenomenal at what it does, blocking Attacks and making way for more boosts.

4. Your assumption that Chatter has powerful users, but Moody doesn't stumps me. Also, kindly list the movesets/pokemon which would beat Moody (All variants - with Taunt, with Magma Storm, with King's Shield).
 
1. Okay, I understood now. But that's besides the point.

2. No, we may not bring in Ttar. Nobody uses Unaware Ttar. Unaware Ttar is bopped by Moonblast and can be played around with using King's Shield.

3. I honestly didn't understand the calc you just did. And as far as QD or Tail Glow is concerned, it takes up valuable moveslot. What moveset do you propose? QD/Stored Power/Substitute/Moonblast? That's not Imposter Proof in the strictest sense. Moody gives the boosts by itself and saves up a moveslot for King's Shield, which is phenomenal at what it does, blocking Attacks and making way for more boosts.

4. Your assumption that Chatter has powerful users, but Moody doesn't stumps me. Also, kindly list the movesets/pokemon which would beat Moody (All variants - with Taunt, with Magma Storm, with King's Shield).
2. That is my point. You cant run Moonblast safely, or else Shed, Registeel, and Aegislash all wall you- all of which are run on common teams of nearly every archetype. Moonblast is nothing more than a lure, so don't bring it up- unless you want to ditch taunt/kings shield, which are what makes it good.
3. Bleh, teach me not to post without proofreading. I meant a simple set of protean quiver dance, not simple quiver dance. To be specific, the quiver dance/tg set would be (QD/TG)+(KS/Taunt)+Judgment+SS, which is imposterproof (or at least more so than this set), initially harder hitting, has better coverage, is less luck reliant- and does basicallt the same job, only with less predictability. When you see Protean MMY, you bring in your Fur Coat Maudino/Chansey, not your whirlwinder or your setup counter. You say it frees up a moveslot over this set, but no matter what you are giving up something- You cant give up sub, or else you lose to impostor, you cant ditch Kings Shield, or is boosting is mediocre, and you cant give up stored power, or you are useless. Do you want coverage? Taunt? All those moves you described cant be run on one set.
4. Chatter can be slapped on literally any special attacker, which is half the tier. Moody takes up an ability, which instantly removes ate, protean, contrary, and weather boosting abilities like sand rush. It also rules out walls, who could just make their recovery easier by making their opponent hit themselves half the time, or physical attackers with a decent spa stat like MMX or PDon.
 
4. Your assumption that Chatter has powerful users, but Moody doesn't stumps me. Also, kindly list the movesets/pokemon which would beat Moody (All variants - with Taunt, with Magma Storm, with King's Shield).
Nothing is going to beat every variant of something, thats BH. You can't expect Regirock to beat every variant of Mega Ray, and its probably one of the best dedicated Mega Ray counters. Mono Stored Power attacker gets rekted by any Dark Type and is incredibly easy to switch into because it can't pressure anything without boosts and any non Taunt set can be phased out or have its boosts stolen or reset by Heart Swap/Haze. Moody has some pretty clearly defined checks that are useful in other situations, and unless it Moody picks up and usage and really starts to make an impact in tournaments and on the ladder i don't think anything needs to be done. If anything does, need to be done, then i would argue for a Stored Power ban. Its more of a widespread issue then Moody is, it allows any sweeper to easily beat unaware, and it can get out of hand very fast. Banning Stored Power would cripple Moody sets and make then much more managable. But again, i don't really think anything needs to be done right now.
 
2. A considerable amount of Moody users also run Magma Storm (For Steel Types and Shedinja, both of which are headaches for Moody mons).
Cancer (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- King's Shield
- Stored Power
- Filler (Usually Moonblast or the less frequent Magma Storm)

1. By your own admission, Magma Storm is less common. Also, we have to consider Taunt users like Lcass and Klang's moody, which also needs a moveslot taking from possible coverage. And, in any case, using your set, you either lose to Registeel or lose harder to Ttar (why did I not think of Ttar earlier?) and Shedinja. You can't have it both ways without giving up some of your stall power, which makes it harder to get your boosts going.

Also, Flashfire Steel-types if they get in quick enough, or are packing Whirlwind.

...didn't Flint used to run Bisharp to bop Stored Power abusers last time they were popular?


2. I downplay Sp. A boosts because while they're likely to happen, they're also likely to drop. You have a roughly equal chance of getting +6 Sp. A by turn 3 as you do -3 Sp. A. Or -3 Accuracy, in which case your Sp. A doesn't really matter. It's not reliable.


3. Chatter could be slapped on literally everything. Nothing was stopping you from putting it on every member of your team. Attackers could use it to break walls, walls could use it to stop attackers, stall could use it to help stall, offensive could use it to break stall, and so on and so forth. There was near zero cost of running as much Chatter as you wanted and tons of return. Additionally, Chatter manipulated luck in the user's favor by reliably giving the opponent a 50% chance to not move while having no drawback to the user. Moody, meanwhile is limited to two Pokemon via Ability Clause, only really works on specific sets (often Stored Power, as has been the case whenever it's big), can screw the user over by virtue of dice rolls even if the opponent is busy clicking Splash, and can be shutdown or backfire spectacularly from things like Perish Song and Heart Swap. I mean, yeah, it can get ridiculous, but it can also do nothing.


4. My own point, but if you're abusing Stored Power, there's better, faster, more reliable ways to do it. Lemme bring up some sets inspired by the old Gen V Stored Smash Jirachi. Like, say, Mega-Diancie with Simple running Shell Smash, Stored Power, Moonblast, and filler. One turn of set-up gives us BP 200 Stored Power. Defense drops don't really matter because you are not switching into that. And setting up? Find something that doesn't like Diancie and get it in safely. Especially easy if you run Pixie Diancie on the same team.

Oh, but you want Imposter proof? Here, have a whatever attacker you want with Simple using Shell Smash, Stored Power, Earth Power/Thousand Waves/Precipice Blades, and Substitute. Now if the Imposter sneaks in, just switch to literally any Yveltal set and the Imposter loses! Or heck, run that on a Yveltal with Leech Seed in the last slot and it kills Sheddy and Imposter and everyone else! All with a whopping one turn of set-up!


...if those become common, I'm sorry.


5. Also, as said, the problem seems to be more Stored Power than Moody itself. If it weren't for the Evasion boosts, Moody couldn't even really be a problem as is. However, Stored Power currently isn't a problem and, when it becomes big, has traditionally been bopped back down by meta adaptations. If it becomes big again and the meta can't handle it, then its worth looking at.
 
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1. Okay, I understood now. But that's besides the point.

2. No, we may not bring in Ttar. Nobody uses Unaware Ttar. Unaware Ttar is bopped by Moonblast and can be played around with using King's Shield.

3. ...And as far as QD or Tail Glow is concerned, it takes up valuable moveslot. Moody gives the boosts by itself and saves up a moveslot for King's Shield...

4. Your assumption that Chatter has powerful users, but Moody doesn't stumps me. ...

2.)

360WITHTHEWRISTBOY's team:
Deoxys-Attack / Mewtwo-Mega-Y / Tyranitar-Mega / Aegislash / Shedinja / Audino-Mega
Protean/Moody/Unaware/Flash Fire/Sturdy/Magic Bounce

3.)

Moody boosts are random,
- Attack is best
- Defense makes you easy revengekill
- Speed might leave you open
- SpA lowers your damage
- SpD makes you die from soundmoves
- Acc makes you miss Stored Power
- Evasion will make you get hit by everything

4.) Agree with Quantum

Trading a Moody Sweeper for a Prankster is good, Prankster has many other uses.
Assist might be good 4th move option. ( too bad its banned )
 
2. That is my point. You cant run Moonblast safely, or else Shed, Registeel, and Aegislash all wall you- all of which are run on common teams of nearly every archetype. Moonblast is nothing more than a lure, so don't bring it up- unless you want to ditch taunt/kings shield, which are what makes it good.
No, you're missing the point. The opponent does not know your moveset until it is too late. That's the issue. We are free to discuss moveset variances, but in a real match, when the Moody user is behind a sub, it's near impossible to guess his moveset. You can switch in a Registeel and end up getting bopped by Magma Storm. You may switch in a Chansey and end up getting Taunted. And once you start to panic and figure out a way to deal with the moveset, Stored Power's BP would be too high to be taken lightly.

3. Bleh, teach me not to post without proofreading. I meant a simple set of protean quiver dance, not simple quiver dance. To be specific, the quiver dance/tg set would be (QD/TG)+(KS/Taunt)+Judgment+SS, which is imposterproof (or at least more so than this set), initially harder hitting, has better coverage, is less luck reliant- and does basicallt the same job, only with less predictability. When you see Protean MMY, you bring in your Fur Coat Maudino/Chansey, not your whirlwinder or your setup counter. You say it frees up a moveslot over this set, but no matter what you are giving up something- You cant give up sub, or else you lose to impostor, you cant ditch Kings Shield, or is boosting is mediocre, and you cant give up stored power, or you are useless. Do you want coverage? Taunt? All those moves you described cant be run on one set.
Again, read the above reply.

4. Chatter can be slapped on literally any special attacker, which is half the tier. Moody takes up an ability, which instantly removes ate, protean, contrary, and weather boosting abilities like sand rush. It also rules out walls, who could just make their recovery easier by making their opponent hit themselves half the time, or physical attackers with a decent spa stat like MMX or PDon.
What makes you think Moody cannot be slapped on to any Special Attacker in the tier?

Nothing is going to beat every variant of something, thats BH. You can't expect Regirock to beat every variant of Mega Ray, and its probably one of the best dedicated Mega Ray counters. Mono Stored Power attacker gets rekted by any Dark Type and is incredibly easy to switch into because it can't pressure anything without boosts and any non Taunt set can be phased out or have its boosts stolen or reset by Heart Swap/Haze. Moody has some pretty clearly defined checks that are useful in other situations, and unless it Moody picks up and usage and really starts to make an impact in tournaments and on the ladder i don't think anything needs to be done. If anything does, need to be done, then i would argue for a Stored Power ban. Its more of a widespread issue then Moody is, it allows any sweeper to easily beat unaware, and it can get out of hand very fast. Banning Stored Power would cripple Moody sets and make then much more managable. But again, i don't really think anything needs to be done right now.
I'm seeing that people are mentioning "moody has clear checks" but do not seem to mention anything else beyond the unrealistic Unaware Dark Types (Which again, get dealt with via Moonblast) and walls that get shut down by Taunt. Please start doing so to make your argument sound valid.

1. By your own admission, Magma Storm is less common. Also, we have to consider Taunt users like Lcass and Klang's moody, which also needs a moveslot taking from possible coverage. And, in any case, using your set, you either lose to Registeel or lose harder to Ttar (why did I not think of Ttar earlier?) and Shedinja. You can't have it both ways without giving up some of your stall power, which makes it harder to get your boosts going.

Also, Flashfire Steel-types if they get in quick enough, or are packing Whirlwind.

...didn't Flint used to run Bisharp to bop Stored Power abusers last time they were popular?
Even without Moonblast, it would take either Unaware or No Guard to deal with Moody. Let's see how much damage a +2 Mega Mewtwo Y can do to an Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 135-159 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That convince you enough? No? Let's take a look at how a Mega Mewtwo Y can do to a more realistic non-AV Unaware Mega Tyranitar.

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 101-119 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

48% + 6.25% Passive + Trapping = 2HKO.

FF Steel Types can be stopped with Taunt. That is the entire point I'm trying to make. With just in about a variant in 6 moves, Substitute, King's Shield/Taunt, Stored Power, Moonblast/Magma Storm, Moody can destroy all the commonly used mons in the meta. All. In fact, even without Moonblast, Moody can wreck.

2. I downplay Sp. A boosts because while they're likely to happen, they're also likely to drop. You have a roughly equal chance of getting +6 Sp. A by turn 3 as you do -3 Sp. A. Or -3 Accuracy, in which case your Sp. A doesn't really matter. It's not reliable.
Chatter's confusion has an equal chance of meaning nothing and let the opponent proceed to Attack you as well. But where has that gotten us?

3. Chatter could be slapped on literally everything. Nothing was stopping you from putting it on every member of your team. Attackers could use it to break walls, walls could use it to stop attackers, stall could use it to help stall, offensive could use it to break stall, and so on and so forth. There was near zero cost of running as much Chatter as you wanted and tons of return. Additionally, Chatter manipulated luck in the user's favor by reliably giving the opponent a 50% chance to not move while having no drawback to the user. Moody, meanwhile is limited to two Pokemon via Ability Clause, only really works on specific sets (often Stored Power, as has been the case whenever it's big), can screw the user over by virtue of dice rolls even if the opponent is busy clicking Splash, and can be shutdown or backfire spectacularly from things like Perish Song and Heart Swap. I mean, yeah, it can get ridiculous, but it can also do nothing.
I never said Moody cannot be checked. The problem I had was that as the opponent tries to check, he takes a huge amount of damage in the process. If that's not uncompetitive, I don't know what is.

4. My own point, but if you're abusing Stored Power, there's better, faster, more reliable ways to do it. Lemme bring up some sets inspired by the old Gen V Stored Smash Jirachi. Like, say, Mega-Diancie with Simple running Shell Smash, Stored Power, Moonblast, and filler. One turn of set-up gives us BP 200 Stored Power. Defense drops don't really matter because you are not switching into that. And setting up? Find something that doesn't like Diancie and get it in safely. Especially easy if you run Pixie Diancie on the same team.

Oh, but you want Imposter proof? Here, have a whatever attacker you want with Simple using Shell Smash, Stored Power, Earth Power/Thousand Waves/Precipice Blades, and Substitute. Now if the Imposter sneaks in, just switch to literally any Yveltal set and the Imposter loses! Or heck, run that on a Yveltal with Leech Seed in the last slot and it kills Sheddy and Imposter and everyone else! All with a whopping one turn of set-up!
Yes, I'm sure the opponent won't notice the moveset and also see the Yveltal in your team. He'll definitely never think that Yveltal can possibly switch in. Come on. That's as bad a giving him a free switch. Imposter switches in. Stored Smasher withdrawn. Yveltal switches in. Imposter is withdrawn and a wallbreaker is switched in. That's what's more likely to happen.

I'm sure they'll definitely become popular...

5. Also, as said, the problem seems to be more Stored Power than Moody itself. If it weren't for the Evasion boosts, Moody couldn't even really be a problem as is. However, Stored Power currently isn't a problem and, when it becomes big, has traditionally been bopped back down by meta adaptations. If it becomes big again and the meta can't handle it, then its worth looking at.
As you admitted yourself, Evasion is also another problem with Moody, although not as much as the ever-increasing BP of Stored Power. But Evasion cannot be written off.

2.)

360WITHTHEWRISTBOY's team:
Deoxys-Attack / Mewtwo-Mega-Y / Tyranitar-Mega / Aegislash / Shedinja / Audino-Mega
Protean/Moody/Unaware/Flash Fire/Sturdy/Magic Bounce
Don't be ridiculous. Trambo runs a 0 SpA Mega Diancie and a Giratina with 252 HP / 252+ SpD. Whenever there's a threat of Imposter sweeping, he pivots into Giratina. User who think Boomburst will KO end up getting bopped by Metal Burst.

So, shall we conclude every Giratina ever used by everyone can do the same thing?

The team you provided is specific. I've battled him before. He uses Ttar because he already knows Mewtwo's moveset, which is Sub/KS/Stored Power/Magma Storm. I really doubt he'll switch in Ttar on something behind a Sub with a Moonblast in its moveset. Let's take the example of Name Rater's Alakazam (Refer to the replay I posted before):

0- SpA Alakazam Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 120-142 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes, that's a 0- SpA EVs 0 SpA IVs Alakazam (Not even Mega) 2HKOing a 252 HP / 252+ SDef Assault Vest Mega Ttar. How reliable is Mega Ttar now, do you bet?

3.)

Moody boosts are random,
- Attack is best
- Defense makes you easy revengekill
- Speed might leave you open
- SpA lowers your damage
- SpD makes you die from soundmoves
- Acc makes you miss Stored Power
- Evasion will make you get hit by everything
- Attack is best? What? Why?
- 'revengekill' behind a sub? k.
- Again, leave you open? What?
- SpA drop lowers your damage? So what? It's compensated by the increase in BP of Stored Power.
- True, but what if you are quicker? Then the opponent dies.
- Again, the user can always wait it out. If the opponent notices the drop in Accuracy and tries to switch in a wall, he may get bopped with Stored Power. He can't afford to do that.
- At this point, I don't even know why I replied to all your remarks. Why would drop in Evasion matter when you are possibly quicker and packing a punch (And have Sub and KS to hide behind?)

4.) Agree with Quantum

Trading a Moody Sweeper for a Prankster is good, Prankster has many other uses.
Assist might be good 4th move option. ( too bad its banned )
Prankster takes up a move. Moody doesn't. Did you even read the conversation?
 
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MAMP

MAMP!
is a Tiering Contributor
No, you're missing the point. The opponent does not know your moveset until it is too late. That's the issue. We are free to discuss moveset variances, but in a real match, when the Moody user is behind a sub, it's near impossible to guess his moveset. You can switch in a Registeel and end up getting bopped by Magma Storm. You may switch in a Chansey and end up getting Taunted. And once you start to panic and figure out a way to deal with the moveset, Stored Power's BP would be too high to be taken lightly.



Again, read the above reply.



What makes you think Moody cannot be slapped on to any Special Attacker in the tier?



I'm seeing that people are mentioning "moody has clear checks" but do not seem to mention anything else beyond the unrealistic Unaware Dark Types (Which again, get dealt with via Moonblast) and walls that get shut down by Taunt. Please start doing so to make your argument sound valid.



Even without Moonblast, it would take either Unaware or No Guard to deal with Moody. Let's see how much damage a +2 Mega Mewtwo Y can do to an Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 135-159 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That convince you enough? No? Let's take a look at how a Mega Mewtwo Y can do to a more realistic non-AV Unaware Mega Tyranitar.

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 101-119 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

48% + 6.25% Passive + Trapping = 2HKO.

FF Steel Types can be stopped with Taunt. That is the entire point I'm trying to make. With just in about a variant in 6 moves, Substitute, King's Shield/Taunt, Stored Power, Moonblast/Magma Storm, Moody can destroy all the commonly used mons in the meta. All. In fact, even without Moonblast, Moody can wreck.


Chatter's confusion has an equal chance of meaning nothing and let the opponent proceed to Attack you as well. But where has that gotten us?



I never said Moody cannot be checked. The problem I had was that as the opponent tries to check, he takes a huge amount of damage in the process. If that's not uncompetitive, I don't know what is.



Yes, I'm sure the opponent won't notice the moveset and also see the Yveltal in your team. He'll definitely never think that Yveltal can possibly switch in. Come on. That's as bad a giving him a free switch. Imposter switches in. Stored Smasher withdrawn. Yveltal switches in. Imposter is withdrawn and a wallbreaker is switched in. That's what's more likely to happen.

I'm sure they'll definitely become popular...



As you admitted yourself, Evasion is also another problem with Moody, although not as much as the ever-increasing BP of Stored Power. But Evasion cannot be written off.



Don't be ridiculous. Trambo runs a 0 SpA Mega Diancie and a Giratina with 252 HP / 252+ SpD. Whenever there's a threat of Imposter sweeping, he pivots into Giratina. User who think Boomburst will KO end up getting bopped by Metal Burst.

So, shall we conclude every Giratina ever used by everyone can do the same thing?

The team you provided is specific. I've battled him before. He uses Ttar because he already knows Mewtwo's moveset, which is Sub/KS/Stored Power/Magma Storm. I really doubt he'll switch in Ttar on something behind a Sub with a Moonblast in its moveset. Let's take the example of Name Rater's Alakazam (Refer to the replay I posted before):

0- SpA Alakazam Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 120-142 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes, that's a 0- SpA EVs 0 SpA IVs Alakazam (Not even Mega) 2HKOing a 252 HP / 252+ SDef Assault Vest Mega Ttar. How reliable is Mega Ttar now, do you bet?



- Attack is best? What? Why?
- 'revengekill' behind a sub? k.
- Again, leave you open? What?
- SpA drop lowers your damage? So what? It's compensated by the increase in BP of Stored Power.
- True, but what if you are quicker? Then the opponent dies.
- Again, the user can always wait it out. If the opponent notices the drop in Accuracy and tries to switch in a wall, he may get bopped with Stored Power. He can't afford to do that.
- At this point, I don't even know why I replied to all your remarks. Why would drop in Evasion matter when you are possibly quicker and packing a punch (And have Sub and KS to hide behind?)



Prankster takes up a move. Moody doesn't. Did you even read the conversation?
Okie I just want to say that these calcs are completely fabricated

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 51-61 (12.6 - 15%) -- possible 7HKO

0 SpA Alakazam Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 76-90 (18.8 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
 
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar in Sun: 308-363 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not even a OHKO.


Here's the real calcs. You accidentally included Sand in yours, MAMP.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 69-81 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 34-41 (8.4 - 10.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

0- SpA Mega Alakazam Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO


Considering fabricated calculations, do I even need to address the rest of the post?
 

bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
pretty hard doing that much damage with resisted hits against 100/120 bulk
252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. -2 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Tyranitar: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

Max invest modest Moonblast does 2hko, but running Modest seems kinda sketchy when things like Gengar and MM2X outspeed and OHKO. Otherwise, its a slim chance at a 2hko and 0% chance if TTar has lefties.


252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
 
No, you're missing the point. The opponent does not know your moveset until it is too late. That's the issue. We are free to discuss moveset variances, but in a real match, when the Moody user is behind a sub, it's near impossible to guess his moveset. You can switch in a Registeel and end up getting bopped by Magma Storm. You may switch in a Chansey and end up getting Taunted. And once you start to panic and figure out a way to deal with the moveset, Stored Power's BP would be too high to be taken lightly.
This can happen against any sub set up set, and it also helps prove my point that Stored Power is more of an issue than moody itself.

What makes you think Moody cannot be slapped on to any Special Attacker in the tier?
Because there is only one ability slot and 4 move slots? Using an ability like Moody has much higher opportunity cost than a move like Chatter. In order for Moody to function well you pretty much need Sub and Spiky Shield. Moody isn't something you "slap on" to already established sets. Chatter was.

I'm seeing that people are mentioning "moody has clear checks" but do not seem to mention anything else beyond the unrealistic Unaware Dark Types (Which again, get dealt with via Moonblast) and walls that get shut down by Taunt. Please start doing so to make your argument sound valid.
It doesn't sound like Moody has clear checks to you, because your theoretical Moody set seems to have 6+ moveslots. You keep throwing around Taunt, Magma Storm, Stored Power and Moonblast. You can't run all that on one Moody mon. Maybe if you restrict yourself to one or two of the best Moody sets maybe we can talk specific counters. Its not really fair or realistic if one side has to talk about real movesets and the other side uses theoretical ones that have all the answers. But in general Unaware, Magic Bounce phazers, Prankster Heart Swap, Perish Song, and -ates can check Moody. Thats what i mean by clear checks.
 
OK as someone who's abused Moody a lot recently, I feel like you're giving Moody far too many options here. Because of how it works, Moody is basically forced to run Substitute / Spiky Shield (Not KS, you need Spiky + Taunt for Shed) / Taunt, and it only really has one moveslot it can toy around with, which is an attacking move that's pretty much already decided based on what mon you're using (Or, alternatively, Baton Pass, but getting your Taunt bounced is a big risk to take). Substitute and Spiky Shield are needed for obvious reasons, while if you omit Taunt, any Pokemon with a status move that deals with set-up, including unimpostered Haze / WW Chansey since you will have a Substitute up most of the time, will pretty much deny you your sweep. Your item is bound to Leftovers, as well.

In addition, any attacking move will not work equally well. Stored Power and Scald work far better than most other moves, which risk not doing enough damage to Unawares since your Moody user will be primarily invested in SpD to combat Boomburst or running out of PP, and a fair share of attacking types have immunities which render them inconsistent (Stored Power and Scald are the exceptions because the former hits insanely hard and the latter's burn chance alongside Taunt is very menacing). I tried Oblivion Wing Lugia one time and was sorely disappointed when at +6 it could only muster ~40% on a bounce Registeel.

What does this leave us with?

/
/

EVs and Nature: Specially Defensive (Mega Meta can get away with some SpA 'cause Steel)
Ability: Moody
Item: Leftovers
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield
- Taunt
- Stored Power / Scald

These three from my experience are the consistent users of Moody, and anything else has clear cut problems. I'm not necessarily trying to say you're in the wrong here Dina, but if you want to talk about Moody sets that potentially break the ability, please limit your argument to these as anything else is painfully easy to stop in its tracks.
 
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There is one variant of moody I used to use back in the day that was a giratina-o using drain punch and phantom force with sub and spiky shield
It only worked due of its weirdness and PP advantage, and even then, only sometimes, being more of a nuinsance than a threat, which also seems to be the case for most of the moody abusers in general.

It's annoying and risky, and can sometimes win against un prepared un lucky un expecting poor sap.
But like, due of the effort needed for it to work with the moves and shit, to truly milk moody, you seem to just in general only end up making sets that are more of annoying to deal with by anyone who knows what they are doing than threatening/broken.

Something will always stop it or ruin the moody run, just face it.

I'm gonna be honest and say that if mega ray had better typing, he'd be the best moody abuser due of the raw base stat power allowing it to get advantage from like every boost letting it open up more space, but aint happening with those weaknesses.
 
No, you're missing the point. The opponent does not know your moveset until it is too late. That's the issue. We are free to discuss moveset variances, but in a real match, when the Moody user is behind a sub, it's near impossible to guess his moveset. You can switch in a Registeel and end up getting bopped by Magma Storm. You may switch in a Chansey and end up getting Taunted. And once you start to panic and figure out a way to deal with the moveset, Stored Power's BP would be too high to be taken lightly.
They do, though. It can't run anything except (ks/sis)/sub/sp/(taunt/magma storm), with the maybe exception of Klang's set switching stored power for scald. Anything else is just a lure, and not a very good one.
Again, read the above reply.

What makes you think Moody cannot be slapped on to any Special Attacker in the tier?
The ability to count. You have one ability slot. Moody is an ability. So is aerilate, pixelate, gale wings, contrary, prankster, refridgerate, protean, mold breaker, and tinted lens. Thus, any special attacker that uses one of those cant use moody, which is almost all of them.
I'm seeing that people are mentioning "moody has clear checks" but do not seem to mention anything else beyond the unrealistic Unaware Dark Types (Which again, get dealt with via Moonblast) and walls that get shut down by Taunt. Please start doing so to make your argument sound valid.
Let's see- PH TTar, sand stream TTar, mold breaker TTar, magic bounce Chansey, Magic bounce Audino, 2 2 shedinja cores (bad, but that's irrelevant), PH Yveltal, Prankster/Magic Bounce Aegislash, Prankster/Magic Bounce Registeel...

Edit: Since you don't like TTar, lets try an uninvested, non-unaware. Burn simulates magma storm, since the calc deosn't like that.
+2 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 126-149 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
This could be, idk, moldy, and when it switches in you got a lucky +2 spa. You still loose, badly, unless you massively outpredict.
Even without Moonblast, it would take either Unaware or No Guard to deal with Moody. Let's see how much damage a +2 Mega Mewtwo Y can do to an Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar.

+2 252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar: 135-159 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That convince you enough? No? Let's take a look at how a Mega Mewtwo Y can do to a more realistic non-AV Unaware Mega Tyranitar.

252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 101-119 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

48% + 6.25% Passive + Trapping = 2HKO.
Addressed above. I'm not buying those calcs.

FF Steel Types can be stopped with Taunt. That is the entire point I'm trying to make. With just in about a variant in 6 moves, Substitute, King's Shield/Taunt, Stored Power, Moonblast/Magma Storm, Moody can destroy all the commonly used mons in the meta. All. In fact, even without Moonblast, Moody can wreck.
Operating words being can and 6

Chatter's confusion has an equal chance of meaning nothing and let the opponent proceed to Attack you as well. But where has that gotten us?
Yes, but unlike moody, chatter dealt solid damage in a good attacking type, with the low cost of a moveslot.

I never said Moody cannot be checked. The problem I had was that as the opponent tries to check, he takes a huge amount of damage in the process. If that's not uncompetitive, I don't know what is.
Moody isn't doing jack all to its checks with a +0 20 np stored power. Did you by chance mean counters?
The other word you want is broken, but moody isn't that, either.

Yes, I'm sure the opponent won't notice the moveset and also see the Yveltal in your team. He'll definitely never think that Yveltal can possibly switch in. Come on. That's as bad a giving him a free switch. Imposter switches in. Stored Smasher withdrawn. Yveltal switches in. Imposter is withdrawn and a wallbreaker is switched in. That's what's more likely to happen.

I'm sure they'll definitely become popular...
I know! Every time my opponent has a counter to one of my moms, I'll switch out! Who cares if I'm losing boosts, or generating free turns, or that they might not actually bring it in! Nothing can possibly go wrong!

As you admitted yourself, Evasion is also another problem with Moody, although not as much as the ever-increasing BP of Stored Power. But Evasion cannot be written off.
It mostly can, though. Evasion was banned because it was rng reliant, not because it was good.

Prankster takes up a move. Moody doesn't. Did you even read the conversation?
The word you are looking for is ability, and last time I checked moody does.
 
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I'm terribly sorry. I selected the "VGC15 Tyranitar". which puts it at Level 50 in all the calcs. Entirely my mistake. I didn't 'fabricate' it. That's a ridiculous claim. I probably should have verified it before posting it, though.

On another note, we seem to be running in circles here. I find Moody to be broken. You guys wouldn't go beyond thinking it can be checked. And we won't budge. It's futile.

I say let's hear from verbatim and if he's not interested in suspecting this, there's no point in further discussing this. Ciao!
 
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MAMP

MAMP!
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm terribly sorry. I selected the "VGC15 Tyranitar". which puts it at Level 50 in all the calcs. Entirely my mistake. I didn't 'fabricate' it. That's a ridiculous claim. I probably should have verified it before posting it, though.

On another note, we seem to be running in circles here. I find Moody to be broken. You guys wouldn't go beyond thinking it can be checked. And we won't budge. It's futile.

I say let's hear from verbatim and if he's not interested in suspecting this, there's no point in further discussing this. Ciao!
verbatim is no longer tier leader, its E4 Flint now. Also I'm really unsure as to why this whole discussion was held here and not in the suspect discussion thread, isn't that what that thread is for?
 
This can happen against any sub set up set, and it also helps prove my point that Stored Power is more of an issue than moody itself.
Agree, my favorite move and stat boosters best friend.


We can give Moody credit for being Imposterproof and Shedinjaproof.
Moody is just one of 10 potential good abilities for MMY
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
mmy doesnt have a lot of options really. Imo the only viable sets for it are protean. Other stuff can work obviously and it isnt necessarially bad but honestly the opportunity cost of running pretty much anything over protean makes it just kinda shit. Other sets like no guard or contrary or whatever tend to be exceedingly gimmicky and far more effective in theorymon than in practice.
 

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