Ladder Balanced Hackmons

I prefer Prankster Dugtrio with Electrify, Substitute, Infestation, Leech Seed Leftovers.

It enables you to trap, disable, heal and hurt the foe. After Infestation wears off they will likely switch because you are draining their HP.

Skill Swap normalize Gengar is great, but it is only going to work once, if the foe switches out you do not have Normalize anymore.
 
I prefer Prankster Dugtrio with Electrify, Substitute, Infestation, Leech Seed Leftovers.

It enables you to trap, disable, heal and hurt the foe. After Infestation wears off they will likely switch because you are draining their HP.

Skill Swap normalize Gengar is great, but it is only going to work once, if the foe switches out you do not have Normalize anymore.
You generally run entrainment on gengar, +spooky judgement.
Also groudon pretty much totally outclasses dugtrio at that, as does any mon with lightningrod.

If you want to trap, maybe try manual-mega evolution Gengar?
 
Dugtrio has the speed Groudon doesn't have as it is the fastest ground type.

Lightening rod doesn't turn moves into electric, it just gets a boost from them. And I know you would give it to a fast Pokemon hoping you go first, but prankster is there to out speed priority users and others who use prankster.

Further, entrainment can be countered by switching out before or during the mega evolution which means the mega form replaces the Normalize ability. Infestation helps against switching out.

Dugtrio out speeds Gengar, and is less predicatable
 
OM! Your speed is mostly irrelevant on your set because you're using Prankster. The only thing Dugtrio would let you do over, say, Groudon or Golurk, is get a jump on slower Pranksters and trap a slower Pokemon before they move. Slower Pranksters will likely have recovery to shrug off whatever residual damage you manage to pull off and have a good chance of having something like Taunt they can get off during your Infest/Seed set-up. Trapping slower Pokemon before they attack is irrelevant because escape moves will still escape that turn. Dugtrio is extremely frail compared to other viable Ground-types, so it's not really worth trading that bulk for speed when you're using Prankster anyway. Now if you had a different ability, you might have more reason to use Dugtrio, although base 120 speed still leaves much to be desired for a frail Pokemon.

Also, Thousand Waves > Infestation unless you need to trap fliers or want to let the opponent go after a few turns for whatever reason.
 
Dugtrio has the speed Groudon doesn't have as it is the fastest ground type.

Lightening rod doesn't turn moves into electric, it just gets a boost from them. And I know you would give it to a fast Pokemon hoping you go first, but prankster is there to out speed priority users and others who use prankster.

Further, entrainment can be countered by switching out before or during the mega evolution which means the mega form replaces the Normalize ability. Infestation helps against switching out.

Dugtrio out speeds Gengar, and is less predicatable
Entrainment should be used Mega Gengar, not nonmega Gengar with a stone. The reason lightning rod is better is that it actually lets you boost and become a threat- with dugtrio, you just exchanged a member of your team (dugtrio) for some of their pp (while also letting them set up). It's just not useful at all.

Also 130>120, idk why you thought dugtrio was faster.

OM! Your speed is mostly irrelevant on your set because you're using Prankster. The only thing Dugtrio would let you do over, say, Groudon or Golurk, is get a jump on slower Pranksters and trap a slower Pokemon before they move. Slower Pranksters will likely have recovery to shrug off whatever residual damage you manage to pull off and have a good chance of having something like Taunt they can get off during your Infest/Seed set-up. Trapping slower Pokemon before they attack is irrelevant because escape moves will still escape that turn. Dugtrio is extremely frail compared to other viable Ground-types, so it's not really worth trading that bulk for speed when you're using Prankster anyway. Now if you had a different ability, you might have more reason to use Dugtrio, although base 120 speed still leaves much to be desired for a frail Pokemon.

Also, Thousand Waves > Infestation unless you need to trap fliers or want to let the opponent go after a few turns for whatever reason.
Infestation means the set isn't beaten by shedinja, which is nice. That may be its only advantage, but it is still a plus.
The rest of it is completely correct as far as I can see
 
Infestation means the set isn't beaten by shedinja, which is nice. That may be its only advantage, but it is still a plus.
The rest of it is completely correct as far as I can see
There's that, but he has Leech Seed still for Sheddy. In either case, if Sheddy doesn't get out immediately, Dugtrio or whoever will likely take an Endeavor to the face more often than not, making them unable to carry out the set's job anyway. It's partly why I suggested Golurk, who also has the advantage of not being trappable by other trappers in this sort of set (but really lacks a niche beyond that and being a dick to Sheddy in general).
 
You know, here is what sets Dugtrio apart:

Speed allows it to handle other Pranksters that are quick, i.e. Substitute before foes who carry Spore/Dark Void. What is the point of using Prankster if you end up 2nd and with a sleeping Pokemon?

Using Sub is just as important as Electrify, as it prevents Magic Bounce on Leech Seed, and W-o-W, Toxic, etc. alongside stalling behind it with Electrify users. Let's not forget about Gale Wings Dragon Ascent/Brave Bird/Hurricane users; especially with the -ate clause.

SOME escape moves still escape; Parting Shot, Baton Pass- YES..... U-Turn- NO because it turns into Volt-Change and gets blocked by Ground's type immunity.

Dugtrio would not stay in against Ray unless it was behind a Substitute anyways... But point taken that other Ground users would handle the hit... Better, but then take an Extreme Speed next turn, and still likely be down large HP as Extreme Speed out speeds Electrify either way, and therefore Groudon with Sub/Infestation/Leech Seed/Electrify wouldn't be much better.
Groudon would have to carry a strong move to hit Rayquaza back to make it much better.


I guess: Sub, Infestation, Electrify, Thousand Arrows.
 
... Why are we discussing such unviable sets? dugtrio can only work once (after that, people know its a trapping set), on a very few mon (non ghost defensive threats lacking whirlwind/BP/parting shot OR some offensive threat without Espeed, but thats worthless because you would rather run an other offensive mon for those), and automatically is a deadweight on certain teams, aka the ones carrying giratina(which walls you infinitely)/of people knowing the set. To me, this is the very definition of a gimmick(not even a bad lure because any people seeing dugtrio and having read the forum knows what it is).

Regarding mega mence, i would say it isnt reallly worth running, since things like scrappy regigias can already bring such a damage output, yet are non viable... The two are obviously a bit different, but my point is that its power is too underwhelming. However, I think discussing pseudo-aters could be interesting as it would allow you to run specs rayquaza, a set that litterally 2HKOes all common -ate usual checks, but prevent you from using the revenge killing tool of fakespeed.

Regarding decent trappers, I have seen some good illusion gengarite gengar with encore that work really well against balanced teams. The set forces some 50/50, and really helps widdling down things like audino and chansey, that can fear being trapped, encored on a recovery move and ppstalled, while gengar can potentially setup (since baton pass is a recommended to pivot when disguised as a defensive mon). Illusion is def the best ability for gengar, considering how it forces prediction in a meta where it is easy to stay into your comfort zone of send offensive mon/ pivot into defensive mon/repeat.
 
You know, here is what sets Dugtrio apart:

Speed allows it to handle other Pranksters that are quick, i.e. Substitute before foes who carry Spore/Dark Void. What is the point of using Prankster if you end up 2nd and with a sleeping Pokemon?
We pointed this out already, but you're not often going to run into Pranksters who are all too quick to begin with, biggest exception probably being a few nimbler but uncommon ones like Venusaur, Arceus, and Lugia. Slower ones, stuff like Kyogre, Giratina, and Registeel, you could outspeed with a Groudon. Toss about 16 EVs to speed for Prankster-Ogres and you should be fine.

Besides, beating out other priority users is not something this set will accomplish well anyway. This set, regardless of user, needs 3-4 turns to get going. Set-up a Sub > trap > Seed or status if you're running it > Electrify spam. If the opponent gets in and starts attacking or U-Turns before then, you're either missing a Sub, don't have them trapped, or don't have any residual damage. And if the opponent has recovery or, if no seeds + Infest, Poison Heal, they can trivially stall you out of Electrify PP on such a passive set, even if you have them trapped. (This is partly why back when Electrify was possible, it was ran on Lightning Rod Mega-Gengar, who just needed a few Electrify boosts to go on an Imposter-proof sweep.)


Dugtrio would not stay in against Ray unless it was behind a Substitute anyways... But point taken that other Ground users would handle the hit... Better, but then take an Extreme Speed next turn, and still likely be down large HP as Extreme Speed out speeds Electrify either way, and therefore Groudon with Sub/Infestation/Leech Seed/Electrify wouldn't be much better.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dugtrio: 235-277 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Uninvested Groudon has just under double the physical bulk of fully invested Dugtrio. It's not a situation of "takes the hit just a bit better but suffers still". It's "doesn't get snapped like a twig regardless of investment."


Groudon would have to carry a strong move to hit Rayquaza back to make it much better.
Which is fine, Groudon can actually hurt stuff. It could just Twaves for its trapping and just let teammates handle any fliers. By doing that, it frees up a moveslot that'd be needed for trapping and damage to use for recovery, Taunt, or other options.


In any case, the point being, you're sacrificing a lot just to be able to outspeed, and not even necessarily beat, a handful of other priority users.
 
Pls this guy is not serious.

I have seen some mysterious guy using a team with Prankster Ledian Spore/Baton Pass.
And he was actually beating some Con accounts.
 
Pls this guy is not serious.

I have seen some mysterious guy using a team with Prankster Ledian Spore/Baton Pass.
And he was actually beating some Con accounts.
Ok? I'm not sure what the relevance here is, seeing as I fought that guy and he's bad. Could you clarify on what you are trying to say here?


On a more relevant note, What are people opinions on magma storm VS infestation? I personally love magma storm's great coverage, but the lack of misses with infestation is a big boon as well.
 

Illusio

Bold and Brash
Ok? I'm not sure what the relevance here is, seeing as I fought that guy and he's bad. Could you clarify on what you are trying to say here?


On a more relevant note, What are people opinions on magma storm VS infestation? I personally love magma storm's great coverage, but the lack of misses with infestation is a big boon as well.
I personally find Whirlpool to be the better of the three options, as Magma Storm misses way too often, while Infestation is a contact move, so it triggers Rocky Helmet/Spiky Shield/etc. Whirlpool is honestly a nice mix between the two, as it isn't a contact move, but it also has a much better 85% accuracy (and more PP) than Magma Storm.
 
... Why are we discussing such unviable sets? dugtrio can only work once (after that, people know its a trapping set), on a very few mon (non ghost defensive threats lacking whirlwind/BP/parting shot OR some offensive threat without Espeed, but thats worthless because you would rather run an other offensive mon for those), and automatically is a deadweight on certain teams, aka the ones carrying giratina(which walls you infinitely)/of people knowing the set. To me, this is the very definition of a gimmick(not even a bad lure because any people seeing dugtrio and having read the forum knows what it is).

Regarding mega mence, i would say it isnt reallly worth running, since things like scrappy regigias can already bring such a damage output, yet are non viable... The two are obviously a bit different, but my point is that its power is too underwhelming. However, I think discussing pseudo-aters could be interesting as it would allow you to run specs rayquaza, a set that litterally 2HKOes all common -ate usual checks, but prevent you from using the revenge killing tool of fakespeed.

Regarding decent trappers, I have seen some good illusion gengarite gengar with encore that work really well against balanced teams. The set forces some 50/50, and really helps widdling down things like audino and chansey, that can fear being trapped, encored on a recovery move and ppstalled, while gengar can potentially setup (since baton pass is a recommended to pivot when disguised as a defensive mon). Illusion is def the best ability for gengar, considering how it forces prediction in a meta where it is easy to stay into your comfort zone of send offensive mon/ pivot into defensive mon/repeat.
I think Mega Aerodactyl is better than Mega Mence. This set works well as a lead, as few people expect it, and by the time it sets up only King's Shield, and Fake-out users with Refridgerate pose a threat.

M-Aerodactyl @ Safety Goggles/Lum Berry/Sharp Beak
Aerilate
12 HP EVs/ 240 Atk/ Max Spe
Jolly Nature

-Dark void/spore
-Belly Drum,
-Extreme Speed,
-Diamond Storm or Thousand Arrows

(STAB, or Thousand Arrows to handle Electric, Rock, and Steel types that resist Aerilate Mega Aerodactyl Extreme Speed).

The 12 HP EVs give it 273 HP which allows it to take 4 Stealth Rocks, or 2 Belly Drums and survive with 1 HP. (This matters when you Spore a foe, Belly Drum on their switch and seeing you are countered by a Refrigerate Kyurem-Black with Fake-out, so you switch out to save Aero for later. I.e. Switch to a Levitate Heatran to defeat it).

Also:
Set Name: "She'll Smash"
Gardevoir: @Gardevorite
Max SpA & Spe
Modest
Prankster

Spore
Shell Smash
Boom Burst
Stored Power

After you Spore, you can Shell Smash. I tend to not Mega Evolve until I see what switches in on the turn you Shell Smash. If they send in a counter like a Bullet Punch Safety Googles Mega Scizor, then you can keep prankster for later to Spore and set up.

Gardevoir is the only Psychic and Fairy type that can Mega Evolve into an -ate user, allowing it to take advantage of both Boom Burst and Stored Power once set up.

Since you have to Mega Evolve, it doesn't use up your -Ate under the -ate clause. It also works better than Xerneaus because it is less predictable.
 
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Ok? I'm not sure what the relevance here is, seeing as I fought that guy and he's bad. Could you clarify on what you are trying to say here?
My point is Prankster sleep is a strong strategie; if its working with stuff like Ledian or Dugtrio.
One of my very first BH teams i had a Prankster Dark Void P-Don Lead.

On a more relevant note, What are people opinions on magma storm VS infestation? I personally love magma storm's great coverage, but the lack of misses with infestation is a big boon as well.
Magma Storm is best on sweepers. Which dont relay on it.
I use Infestation for Shedinja only. Every wall has U-Turn or Parting Shot.
Whirlpool is a Shedina move. There is the very small possibility of Water Absorb / Storm Drain.
I have also seen some Fire Spin, but idk its accuracy.
 
Groudon @ Red Orb
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Shift Gear
Morning Sun
Sacred Fire
Precipice Blades

The premise of the set is to boost while having enough defenses to take hits and then deliver powerful STAB attacks. Sacred Fire burns Pokemon that hope to use physical Ground moves against Groudon, neutralizing the super effective damage by cutting their 2x damage in half back to the equivalent of a non-ground type attack.

Precipice Blades are used for the power, as we are forgoing a strong boosting move like Swords Dance for the Speed, and thus EQ won't hit hard enough.
 
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Some ladder observations;

I have seen a MMY with Electrify. It had Lighting Rod, everything slower could not touch it.
I learned the hard way that Electrify also blocked status like Leech Seed.

My matches are considerable longer right now. I had quite a few matches arround 70 turns which is
insane considering my playstyle. I had two instances very recently that 2 players gave up cause they had to go at
arround turn ~40. I dont want win like that.


That Gardevoir looks interesting, i would run either Fur Coat, M-Bounce or Simple.
I think Quiever Dance + Sub is better.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Some ladder observations;

I have seen a MMY with Electrify. It had Lighting Rod, everything slower could not touch it.
I learned the hard way that Electrify also blocked status like Leech Seed.

My matches are considerable longer right now. I had quite a few matches arround 70 turns which is
insane considering my playstyle. I had two instances very recently that 2 players gave up cause they had to go at
arround turn ~40. I dont want win like that.


That Gardevoir looks interesting, i would run either Fur Coat, M-Bounce or Simple.
I think Quiever Dance + Sub is better.
Electrify isn't very good in general, it's unreliable at best and just plain bad at worst. 70 turns is barely anything lol, I play balance and I've had multiple matches over 200 turns, and a ton over 120. MegaGarde should prob stick to Simple QD/SS + Gardevoirite for double -ate but it still isn't that good.
 
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Electrify isn't very good in general, it's unreliable at best and just plain bad at worst. 70 matches is barely anything lol, I play balance and I've had multiple matches over 200 turns, and a ton over 120. MegaGarde should prob stick to Simple QD/SS + Gardevoirite for double -ate but it still isn't that good.

Guess you right about Electrify, i just read description on bulpapedia, i thought it would last a few turns, but its 1 turn only.

I use one poke with Recovery at best on my teams. If i spec a battle and i see both sides have M-Audino/Giratina/Aegislash,
i know their match will go over 100 turns. 70 turns is alot for me, i saw some guys outright forfeit, "I dont want battle 156 turns" they say.

The longest match i spec was over 600 turns with one guy not being able to KO Shedinja.
I think if the opponent cant touch Shedinja the match should end.
 
Guess you right about Electrify, i just read description on bulpapedia, i thought it would last a few turns, but its 1 turn only.

I use one poke with Recovery at best on my teams. If i spec a battle and i see both sides have M-Audino/Giratina/Aegislash,
i know their match will go over 100 turns. 70 turns is alot for me, i saw some guys outright forfeit, "I dont want battle 156 turns" they say.

The longest match i spec was over 600 turns with one guy not being able to KO Shedinja.
I think if the opponent cant touch Shedinja the match should end.
Balanced hackmons is the metagame where balance rules supreme (see this:http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-03/metagame/balancedhackmons-1760.txt), and offense really struggled with protean around. It is better now, but being surprised by long games of balance vs balance is... surprising from a high ladder player.

Also, proposing a "game end if opponent has no way to touch shedinja clause" is just not possible when you know anything about the showdown policy (they only try to ban actual endless battle, and they haven't even banned leppa berry). PP stall is a thing, especially in BH (thats why people run scald).
 
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Wow, i did not know you could see this many stats, i also found the % for moves.

Wait for May usage stats, i checked MMY and Protean is listed as 1# with 69.617%.
 
Okay So I thought this could be a good idea, to implement Sleep Clause.
I, and many other users have found a need of the implementation of sleep clause in BH.
Well there are many other checks to sleep like Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, but if you're not relying on that, a Prankster spore could stop you in your place.
I'm gonna discuss about this in the OM room.
Please comment on this.
 
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Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
Okay So I thought this could be a good idea, to implement Sleep Clause.
I, and many other users have found a need of the implementation of sleep clause in BH.
Well there are many other checks to sleep like Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, but if you're not relying on that, a Prankster spore could stop you in your place.
I'm gonna discuss about this in the OM room.
BH can have some unexpected stuff, but you must always be prepared for it and rather than banning stuff based on a small conclusion.Also, I am sure that everyone knows that prankster+ sleep move is a threat and heck all the players are very prepared and have a proper counter(also all teams atleast have a safety google user).To those who don't carry magic bounce/safety google, I can just say "rip".Also, FakeSpeeder can also easily take out most of those nasty prankster+darkvoid/spore/idk.
Correct me if wrong everyone.

--Megaqwer
 

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