Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[Halliday]

Well, I think that limiting megas to their original items would limit them far too much - the only one that would see use would probably Primal Don, and to an extent, maybe Gardevoir. What I think would be much more reasonable, would be to limit the amount of Mega's on a team, without limiting them to their original ability. Allowing one mega (and counting primals as mega's here) per team would get rid of most of the problems right now.

 

[motherlove]

A species clause doesn't really solve the issue. The stupidly op mons we'll still be there and a single groudon can still get a kill everytime he enters the battle.
The 3rd option is quite weird, nerfing some megas but not the other ones seems arbitrary.
Requiring items to mega evolve seems like the best one atm imo. As it would also weaken other stupidly powerfull mons like mega diancie or mega lati@s. Some megas will suffer yes but it's not like it will make all of them unviable. Stuff like sand stream ttar, adapt lucario, tough claws chariX, mb mega diancie or even insomnia mmy will still be really viable while all megas with an -ate ability will really enjoy theses changes.

 

[Rumors]

The problem with outright nerfing all the megas is that the vast majority of them aren't overpowered. The Mewtwos, Lati@s, Hoenn trio, Diancie-M, Gengar-M and, to a much less extent now, Megabro, Audino-M, Megadactyl, mTtar, Megados, and Maggron are the only good ones. By nerfing all megas, we needlessly hurt the megas of Venusaur, Blastoise, both Charizard, Alakazam, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Ampharos, Scizor, Heracross, Houndoom, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Mawile, Medicham, Manectric, Banette, Absol, Garchomp, Lucario, Abomasnow, Beedril, Pidgeot, Steelix, Sceptile, Swampert, Sableye, Sharpedo, Camerupt, Altaria, Glalie, Salamence, Metagross, Lopunny, and Gallade.

Aka, it'd nerf 9 very good pokemon, 6 viable and good but not certain not broken Pokemon, and 35 Pokemon who are currently outclassed or are already just lacking. In other words, we're nerfing 41 Pokemon, more likely 44 Pokemon since not even all of the top 9 are broken, to nerf the big 5. Unless game mechanics changed that made using megas without their stones impossible, I can't get behind nerfing all of the megas just because we don't need to nerf the vast majority of them do deal with a few problems ones.

Plus one of Pdon's best sets is Desolate Lands anyway, so it really doesn't hurt it that much. All the nerf would do is force it to variants of one of its best sets and force it to be immune to Trick while about an estimated 40 or so Pokemon become completely unviable.


Edit: As for a suspect thing, we could hold a suspect Round Robin tournament or something of the like.

 

[motherlove]

The problem with outright nerfing all the megas is that the vast majority of them aren't overpowered. The Mewtwos, Lati@s, Hoenn trio, Diancie-M, Gengar-M and, to a much less extent now, Megabro, Audino-M, Megadactyl, mTtar, Megados, and Maggron are the only good ones. By nerfing all megas, we needlessly hurt the megas of Venusaur, Blastoise, both Charizard, Alakazam, Kangaskhan, Pinsir, Ampharos, Scizor, Heracross, Houndoom, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Mawile, Medicham, Manectric, Banette, Absol, Garchomp, Lucario, Abomasnow, Beedril, Pidgeot, Steelix, Sceptile, Swampert, Sableye, Sharpedo, Camerupt, Altaria, Glalie, Salamence, Metagross, Lopunny, and Gallade.

Aka, it'd nerf 9 very good pokemon, 6 viable and good but not certain not broken Pokemon, and 35 Pokemon who are currently outclassed or are already just lacking. In other words, we're nerfing 41 Pokemon, more likely 44 Pokemon since not even all of the top 9 are broken, to nerf the big 5. Unless game mechanics changed that made using megas without their stones impossible, I can't get behind nerfing all of the megas just because we don't need to nerf the vast majority of them do deal with a few problems ones.

Plus one of Pdon's best sets is Desolate Lands anyway, so it really doesn't hurt it that much. All the nerf would do is force it to variants of one of its best sets and force it to be immune to Trick while about an estimated 40 or so Pokemon become completely unviable.


Edit: As for a suspect thing, we could hold a suspect Round Robin tournament or something of the like.

I know but you can't really justify limiting some megas and not others unless you implement a base stat limitation or some weird complex bans. Pokemon ban is an option but I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[omnisc]

I like donkeys I think that MMX/Y shouldn't be suspect tested. They're walled easily enough and were walled easily enough pre-ORAS, so I dont think they're too much to worry about.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

I doubt that this solution will get much support because it's a really complex ban but I'll put it out there because personally I like it a lot more than the other options proposed:What if we define a list of Pokemon that we consider as very strong offensive threats (for example MMY, MMX, M-Ray, and the primals), and we make a complex ban system that prevents you from using more than one of them on your team. Obviously we'd have to debate over what this list contains (I can see a good case for adding M-Lati@s), but the general idea is there. Any comments?

 

[Kingslayer2779]

This is kinda of one of those moments where I feel that adamantly refusing to ban Pokemon is actually hurting the tier. Tradition is fine and all, but really, we're coming up with all these weird and arbitrary methods of dealing with horribly over-centralizing problems to dance around just banning the problem because it happens to be a Pokemon rather than an ability. If the problem is a particular or few Pokemon, let's just ban the damn Pokemon instead of soft-banning all megas or coming up with weird "these megas must hold items but these megas don't have to" clauses that just make things even more confusing and arbitrary and cause far more collateral damage than just dealing with the problem(s) it(them)self. "Double species clause" is the least odd but it's still strange and arbitrary considering that species clause in every single meta that it's in, official or OM, is single species clause going by dex number. [/opinion]


I'm seeing two problems here that everyone seems to basically agree on: single mon spam is bad. The big 3/5 are also bad. If I'm understanding things right and this is the general consensus, then why don't we just deal with those things instead of dancing around them for the sake of tradition?

I 100% agree with this. Why try some convoluted method of nerfing these Megas when banning them is a easier and more simple solution? What's the sense it not banning if we are just going to nerf to the point of making most Megas unviable? And most people, including myself, aren't totally convinced a species clause will fix the problem so why implement something that might not work? We should be looking for the most efficient and simple answer, and that's suspecting and banning the broken mons. There isn't any reason why mons can't be broken. They aren't just empty receptacles for abilities and moves. Therefore they can be unbalanced.

 

[xJownage]

I doubt that this solution will get much support because it's a really complex ban but I'll put it out there because personally I like it a lot more than the other options proposed:What if we define a list of Pokemon that we consider as very strong offensive threats (for example MMY, MMX, M-Ray, and the primals), and we make a complex ban system that prevents you from using more than one of them on your team. Obviously we'd have to debate over what this list contains (I can see a good case for adding M-Lati@s), but the general idea is there. Any comments?

Again, its just dancing around the actual problem, which is the mons themselves rather than the megas.

We have two options to keep this clean. It can get really messy if we try to make this complex because its not what the meta is about and it opens us up to all kinds of bans of particular sets that are broken or overcentralizing or whatever.

1. Ban the god damn mons instead of trying to find ways to nerf them.

2. Do nothing because we can't do so many complex bans without hurting the tier in the future.

God, you might just give people a precedent for banning sturdinja and other mons like that. Lets not, please.

 

[Lcass4919]

This is kinda of one of those moments where I feel that adamantly refusing to ban Pokemon is actually hurting the tier. Tradition is fine and all, but really, we're coming up with all these weird and arbitrary methods of dealing with horribly over-centralizing problems to dance around just banning the problem because it happens to be a Pokemon rather than an ability. If the problem is a particular or few Pokemon, let's just ban the damn Pokemon instead of soft-banning all megas or coming up with weird "these megas must hold items but these megas don't have to" clauses that just make things even more confusing and arbitrary and cause far more collateral damage than just dealing with the problem(s) it(them)self. "Double species clause" is the least odd but it's still strange and arbitrary considering that species clause in every single meta that it's in, official or OM, is single species clause going by dex number. [/opinion]


I'm seeing two problems here that everyone seems to basically agree on: single mon spam is bad. The big 3/5 are also bad. If I'm understanding things right and this is the general consensus, then why don't we just deal with those things instead of dancing around them for the sake of tradition?

I 100% agree with this. Why try some convoluted method of nerfing these Megas when banning them is a easier and more simple solution? What's the sense it not banning if we are just going to nerf to the point of making most Megas unviable? And most people, including myself, aren't totally convinced a species clause will fix the problem so why implement something that might not work? We should be looking for the most efficient and simple answer, and that's suspecting and banning the broken mons. There isn't any reason why mons can't be broken. They aren't just empty receptacles for abilities and moves. Therefore they can be unbalanced.

i hope you realize the last option is basically "ban the pokemon" which is just cleverly worded so verbatim can actually do it without breaking his comfort zone. lmao.(its a similar idea with shadow tag ggar and pb kanga really, both are banned, but the stones make them legal. much like primaldon will still be legal, but only with the "bypasser")

 

[Rumors]

i hope you realize the last option is basically "ban the pokemon" which is just cleverly worded so verbatim can actually do it without breaking his comfort zone. lmao.(its a similar idea with shadow tag ggar and pb kanga really, both are banned, but the stones make them legal. much like primaldon will still be legal, but only with the "bypasser")

I know. Like I said in my post before my last, if the Pokemon themselves are broken, then just ban the Pokemon rather than coming up with crazy and arbitrary restrictions that are there to effectively ban the Pokemon without banning the Pokemon.

God, you might just give people a precedent for banning sturdinja and other mons like that. Lets not, please.

Technically, the precedent is already there with our weird complex bans. All it'd take to do is for someone to suggest "Ban Sturdy + Shedinja" or "Ban Sturdy." But I don't think Sturdinja or Imposter will ever go through since the former wouldn't get any stronger even if we were to use the FU banlist (+ Sheddy if it's banned in FU) and the latter is only as good as your opponent.

 

[MAMP]

I doubt that this solution will get much support because it's a really complex ban but I'll put it out there because personally I like it a lot more than the other options proposed:What if we define a list of Pokemon that we consider as very strong offensive threats (for example MMY, MMX, M-Ray, and the primals), and we make a complex ban system that prevents you from using more than one of them on your team. Obviously we'd have to debate over what this list contains (I can see a good case for adding M-Lati@s), but the general idea is there. Any comments?

this is way too complex; a banlist should always strive to be as concise as possible, and bh is already difficult enough to get into without something like this

 

[Jiibriil]

I've been a long lurker of these forums, but I just now made an account to post.

What it looks like we need is a way to justify banning the "big 5" while not harming the rest of the metagame. Of the "big 5" the Hoenn trio are pretty much agreed upon to be "OP" and MMY seems pretty powerful too... I mean it can 2HKO ANYTHING except Chansey and weird things like AV Arceus (and even then there's Secret Sword...)

So MMX is the only one needlessly hit here...

I suggest we implement:


God Clause- Nothing's more powerful than God
- Any forme with a BST greater than 720 is banned.

We're not technically banning Pokemon here-- Mewtwo and the Hoenn trio can still be used-- We're carrying out the will of Lord Helix Arceus and nerfing those that would dare challenge him.

Think about it. Might not be perfect, but from what I've been reading it sound like this is the kind of solution you guys want.

Also, screw Pdon. The thing can burn. owait.

 

[Rumors]

I'd be in favor of that because, while it does do things in a roundabout way still (aka banning certain BSTs rather than Pokemon), it still gets the job done without needlessly hurting a lot of Pokemon. I'd throw Soul Dew in there too for reasons I mentioned earlier and can go back and copypasta if anyone wants to see it again.

Plus it's not like bans can't be rescinded when we actually have enough Pokemon in that BST range, regardless of how we approach it.

As for Xtwo being needlessly hurt, not so much. It's the weakest of the five, sure, but only because Psychic is a bad physical STAB, Fighting as annoying side-effects on its good moves unless you're running Contrary, and Fighting is also bad coverage in BH thanks to stuff like Giratina and Aegislash. Also, it can be burned. But really, Giratina is about the only thing Xtwo routinely struggles with, and even then it can often bypass with Protean, Pixelate, or Refrigerate anyway. Everything else it can generally easily 2HKO, even with unSTABed moves.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'd be in favor of that because, while it does do things in a roundabout way still (aka banning certain BSTs rather than Pokemon), it still gets the job done without needlessly hurting a lot of Pokemon. I'd throw Soul Dew in there too for reasons I mentioned earlier and can go back and copypasta if anyone wants to see it again.

Plus it's not like bans can't be rescinded when we actually have enough Pokemon in that BST range, regardless of how we approach it.

As for Xtwo being needlessly hurt, not so much. It's the weakest of the five, sure, but only because Psychic is a bad physical STAB, Fighting as annoying side-effects on its good moves unless you're running Contrary, and Fighting is also bad coverage in BH thanks to stuff like Giratina and Aegislash. Also, it can be burned. But really, Giratina is about the only thing Xtwo routinely struggles with, and even then it can often bypass with Protean, Pixelate, or Refrigerate anyway. Everything else it can generally easily 2HKO, even with unSTABed moves.

I don't know enough about BH to have a valid opinion on the ban. But I'd just like to say that nothing is a counter in BH

 

[Lcass4919]

I don't know enough about BH to have a valid opinion on the ban. But I'd just like to say that nothing is a counter in BH

false. a counter is something capable of switching into a specific poke every time, so although an atespeeder CAN run tarrows, if it doesn't run it, then registeel IS considered a counter. also if you don't have enough experience in bh to form a valid opinion, then why did you form an opinion lol? i mean, even without resorting to the obvious, due to imposter, most pokemon barely go beyond their limitations (so for example, if you run registeel as your own imposter check, then clearly its not going to suprise your opponent with a tarrows out of nowhere because then you lose to imposter) but protean mm2x can easily get around this, since enless the opponent runs fur coat giratina(ONE pokemon, that many people can barely fit on teams), your mm2x can easily have fur coat gira with griseus(yes, it retains altered form btw) and can run knock off to demolish any poke who isn't fur coat giratina. BH isn't as "vast" as it looks, and although i constantly say it IS vast, its not without limitations. and honestly, you're all underestimating mm2x since the only reason its not used to hell and back is primal don, and its counter...fur coat gira. lmao once ones gone, the other shall follow, and mm2x will return with its full fury.

also if we consider "god clause" please rename it to 720 bst clause. idk why, but god clause just doesn't...click with me in terms of name (and last thing we want is a religious debate in bh rite?)

 

[DEG]

I personally thing the answer to primal spam can be alleged by species clause, as complexe ban would make things harder to use. While Pdon have a few checks, It wouldn't be a big problem to face one but facing two or more can make you cringe. I'm with voting for having a species clause.

 

[omnisc]

lmao deathly uses swadloon too?! :o gdi i thought i was being innovative :<

mfw 1)sewaddle is better 2.deathly isn't innovative either ;-; he used it a week after i started using sewaddle.

Anyway...on to the big 5.
personally, I feel that it would be best if the Big 5 exempting MegaRayq required the item, but not necessarily the ability (For example, Red Orb Primaldon with Tinted Lens would still be legal). That way, the primals won't be broken while still being viable; Dons generally rely on scarves or bands to outspeed and kill or to deal excessively massive power (and in occasion, toxic orbs), while Ogres generally use toxic orbs, so removing the item could make them not as broken; its like a mega slot in normal metas - sometimes, its what makes the base form better. MMX/Y generally use LO, Plate, As for megarayq, I feel that it actually isn't too broken in the meta, partially due to its terrible typing (weakness to rocks), lack of STAB coverage on the very common registeel, and outclassed speed to the MMXs/Ys, which perform better than rayq unless you want a aerilate sweeper, GW sweeper, or mixed sweeper, which MMX/Y still can do, if not as well.
What do you think?

 

[Lcass4919]

mfw 1)sewaddle is better 2.deathly isn't innovative either ;-; he used it a week after i started using sewaddle.

Anyway...on to the big 5.
personally, I feel that it would be best if the Big 5 exempting MegaRayq required the item, but not necessarily the ability (For example, Red Orb Primaldon with Tinted Lens would still be legal). That way, the primals won't be broken while still being viable; Dons generally rely on scarves or bands to outspeed and kill or to deal excessively massive power (and in occasion, toxic orbs), while Ogres generally use toxic orbs, so removing the item could make them not as broken; its like a mega slot in normal metas - sometimes, its what makes the base form better. MMX/Y generally use LO, Plate, As for megarayq, I feel that it actually isn't too broken in the meta, partially due to its terrible typing (weakness to rocks), lack of STAB coverage on the very common registeel, and outclassed speed to the MMXs/Ys, which perform better than rayq unless you want a aerilate sweeper, GW sweeper, or mixed sweeper, which MMX/Y still can do, if not as well.
What do you think?

omnisc, i hope you know specs ray 2hkos registeel with boomburst...and otherwise it comes pretty damn close with life orb
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

when your "counter" cant even do anything back but risk the crit and die from recoverspamming, then you know something is broken lol.

 

[Rumors]

omnisc Taking their item hurts them a little bit, but letting them have any ability is still pretty powerful. Mega-Ray's Aerilate is still going to nuke almost everything that isn't Steel and Groudon-P still has fantastic coverage and is immune to burns. Kyo-P would be hurt the most since it runs PH so often, but it's not like it can't do bulky Protean or anything.

Also, it's needlessly complex.


Lcass4919 0 SpA Registeel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 204-244 (58.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Brb putting Ice Beam on all Registeels so I can claim nothing is wrong with Mega-Ray.[/notserious]

 

[Lcass4919]

omnisc Taking their item hurts them a little bit, but letting them have any ability is still pretty powerful. Mega-Ray's Aerilate is still going to nuke almost everything that isn't Steel and Groudon-P still has fantastic coverage and is immune to burns. Kyo-P would be hurt the most since it runs PH so often, but it's not like it can't do bulky Protean or anything.

Also, it's needlessly complex.


Lcass4919 0 SpA Registeel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 204-244 (58.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Brb putting Ice Beam on all Registeels so I can claim nothing is wrong with Mega-Ray.[/notserious]

me and flint actually ran icicle spear on our regis to help beat it during the chatter days. good times...good times...

 

[omnisc]

mfw not even avalanche.
and yeah,i also ran icicle spear please,time to use infiltrator registeel
edit: Lcass4919 that's "Flint and I", not "me and flint"
and, sand stream ttar counters megarayqs w/o fighting coverage (which is uncommon)

 

[Kingslayer2779]

http://strawpoll.me/4369192


I really want to see what the general consensus is on possible solutions, so I'm posting this poll. it's unofficial and won't determine what will be done. The poll is mostly for debate purposes. Please vote as if all options were on the table.

 

[hidood5th]

So wait, who are the big 5? I'm guessing at least one of them is Blissey, taking chances thinking other ones are MegaQuaza, PrimDon, and maybe KyuRefrigerWhite

 

[MAMP]

So wait, who are the big 5? I'm guessing at least one of them is Blissey, taking chances thinking other ones are MegaQuaza, PrimDon, and maybe KyuRefrigerWhite

the five mons with 780 bst: both mega mewtwos, primal groudon, primal kyogre, and mega rayquaza

 

[hidood5th]

the five mons with 780 bst: both mega mewtwos, primal groudon, primal kyogre, and mega rayquaza

Both mewtwos hate Gale Ascent, Groudon and Quaza i knew, and Kyogre I just think is pretty good. Not unbeatable, but pretty good.

Also, Primals are 770. #ArithmeNazi