Ladder Balanced Hackmons

Klang

is a Contributor Alumnus
Zarel's current version of the endless battle clause makes a Pokemon go stale if it has not used any PP in 5 turns, which means that double moves are covered by the current clause. In fact, the current version stops pretty much every method of endless stalling with no collateral and there's nothing to discuss except implementing or not implementing the clause - no additional bans needed.

The details of the clause are here if anyone is interested.
 
Kit Kasai

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
verbatim said:
I support this solution. The problem is is that I'm not able to implement it right now do to stuff.
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What implementing is there to do? The endless battle clause already exists. Don't you just have to turn on a flag? Afaik it already checks the battle to see if it is endless, it just doesn't end the battle unless the clause is set for the format.
 
InfernapeTropius11

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Kit Kasai said:
What implementing is there to do? The endless battle clause already exists. Don't you just have to turn on a flag? Afaik it already checks the battle to see if it is endless, it just doesn't end the battle unless the clause is set for the format.
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Confirming that it automatically checks then ignores, I watched rortik's battle the other day using that cancer Registeel set and it showed the red "Chansey is in an infinite loop." banner but it didn't end til he was banned.

Edit: I'm also 100% for the implementation of the Endless Battle Clause, there's no reason not to and it keeps shit like that out of the meta without nerfing viable strategies (we talked about it in the room with a few well-known players and several more casual players and none of them were against the clause being added either if that counts for anything).
 
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Jiibriil

Jiibriil

So what happens if a Pokemon is "stale"

I read the linked thread, and I'm not really understanding it. Does it force you to forfeit? Does it end the battle in a tie?

What happens if I have a Sturdinja with double moves, on a paranoid stall-esque team, with my only intent being "making sure I don't run out of PP and struggle myself to death."

Most Sturdinja have Volt Switch/Baton Pass, Endeavor, and an attacking move, usually increased priority. If they have a Lum Berry, stick Recycle in slot 4.

What if I'm using a stall team where having to run my opponent out of PP is a possibility, and I run the following set:

Sturdinja (Shedinja) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Volt Switch
- Volt Switch

If I get my opponent down to two Pokemon, say an -ate and a Protean mon, neither of which have proper coverage to kill Sturdinja, you could use this to your advantage to prevent losing.

For example, the enemy can just swap forever.

I recognize that this isn't a common scenario, and if we ban it for the greater good due to its rare usage and low viability, that's fine.

Just pointing out that it IS possible to abuse this double-moves thing without trolling.
 
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Jiibriil

Jiibriil

Talpr0ne said:
Is having a pokemon with the same move twice even legitimately possible on cartridge?
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I could do it with PkHeX, and insert it into my game via the browser exploit or a Powersave, and it would work the way it does here. It's not legitimately obtainable. It may be possible through a bug that I don't know of.

In previous generations where arbitrary code execution is possible (1-3) it is almost certainly "possible" though again, not legitimately.
 
Talpr0ne

Talpr0ne

Jiibriil said:
I could do it with PkHeX, and insert it into my game via the browser exploit or a Powersave, and it would work the way it does here. It's not legitimately obtainable. It may be possible through a bug that I don't know of.

In previous generations where arbitrary code execution is possible (1-3) it is almost certainly "possible" though again, not legitimately.
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Would something like that be allowed to be used on a link battle with a friend? IIRC, stuff like more than 510 evs won't pass, but simpler stuff like illegal moves or abilities will.
 
ScorrchingTheaph

ScorrchingTheaph

nO u
Jiibriil said:
So what happens if a Pokemon is "stale"

I read the linked thread, and I'm not really understanding it. Does it force you to forfeit? Does it end the battle in a tie?

What happens if I have a Sturdinja with double moves, on a paranoid stall-esque team, with my only intent being "making sure I don't run out of PP and struggle myself to death."

Most Sturdinja have Volt Switch/Baton Pass, Endeavor, and an attacking move, usually increased priority. If they have a Lum Berry, stick Recycle in slot 4.

What if I'm using a stall team where having to run my opponent out of PP is a possibility, and I run the following set:

Sturdinja (Shedinja) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Volt Switch
- Volt Switch

If I get my opponent down to two Pokemon, say an -ate and a Protean mon, neither of which have proper coverage to kill Sturdinja, you could use this to your advantage to prevent losing.

For example, the enemy can just swap forever.

I recognize that this isn't a common scenario, and if we ban it for the greater good due to its rare usage and low viability, that's fine.

Just pointing out that it IS possible to abuse this double-moves thing without trolling.
Click to expand...
As someone who has activated Endless Battle Clause on ladder (Hackmons 1v1) with double moves, the battle will end in a tie. Personally I think that the person who is running double moves should lose in such cases, but the actual result is indeed a tie.

Edit: found my replay as proof http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hackmons1v1-267737762
 
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DinaIsha

DinaIsha

ScorrchingTheaph said:
As someone who has activated Endless Battle Clause on ladder (Hackmons 1v1) with double moves, the battle will end in a tie. Personally I think that the person who is running double moves should lose in such cases, but the actual result is indeed a tie.

Edit: found my replay as proof http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hackmons1v1-267737762
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What if one person is running double moves and the other person is just switching in and out? Then a tie would indeed be the best decision. BH is indeed one messed up tier.
 

FreeSlim

Hey Evee Gen, i feel that the use of shedinja is forcing and endless battle is really stopping me for progressing in the latter any tips? I have seen a team full of shedinjas with all stall moves its really bad plz help
 
Jiibriil

Jiibriil

FreeSlim said:
Hey Evee Gen, i feel that the use of shedinja is forcing and endless battle is really stopping me for progressing in the latter any tips? I have seen a team full of shedinjas with all stall moves its really bad plz help
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There are several easy way to deal with Sturdinja.

The easiest, and most reliable, is to run a Mold Breaker Ghost type.

Giratina @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pursuit
- Stealth Rock
- Defog
- Roost

or

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pursuit
- Shell Smash/Quiver Dance
- Secret Sword
- Judgment

If for some reason you can't/don't want to run one of these, your options are pretty much limited to Stealth Rocks and trying to catch it out with a partial trapping move. Try to predict when an opponent will switch into Sturdinja, because no good opponent will leave it in longer than a turn, at least until they're sure you don't have a Mold Breaker mon.
 
ScorrchingTheaph

ScorrchingTheaph

nO u
Here's what I think about the whole endless battling problem:
Implementing the Endless Battle Clause pretty much solved our problems, but I think there should be a different system to determine who wins. In the case of Rortiksteel vs. Imposter, the Imposter should be given a win. In the case of Sturdinja vs. Switch Stall, the tie makes sense.

Running double moves is like running Leppa Berry and the it should be treated in the same way. The only difference is that instead of an item slot, you are using a moveslot, and instead of regaining PP, you stay at 0. Now that we have Endless Battle Clause, we do not need to ban double moves, like how standard tiers do not need to ban Leppa Berry.

The one problem we still have is handling the imposter-trapping stall sets with the Endless Battle Clause. One way that I propose is to slightly modify the clause. We change it from "If all active Pokémon are stale, the player whose team originally started with a Leppa Berry loses. If both or neither team has a Leppa Berry Pokémon, the battle ends in a tie." to "If all active Pokémon are stale, the player whose team originally started with a Leppa Berry or a repeated moveslot loses. A transformed Pokémon's moves will be determined by what they have before transforming. If both or neither team has a Leppa Berry Pokémon and/or is using a repeated moveslot, the battle ends in a tie."


On the other hand, I'm not 100% sure how Protean Arceus is supposed to work in bh, but as of now, it does absolutely nothing. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-287694875 No type change happens. Judgement Arceus is holding sp00py plate, the other is itemless.

(EDIT: accidentally tabbed to Post Reply and hit enter before i was done, finished/corrected post)
 
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Rumors

Rumors

Is that how Protean Arceus works in-game though? Granted, that's definitely not the best Protean to run and all that stuff, but, you know, simulator accuracy and such.
 
E4 Flint

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I was discussing this with lelcass the other day, but a functional protean arceus could have a niche since itd be the only one that can run plate and koff on the same set.
 
Kingslayer2779

Kingslayer2779

you can run the Mega themselves by simply choosing the Mega form at teambuilder. I suggest checking out the BH viability rankings, as most of those pokemon aren't even remotely viable in BH.
 
AWailOfATail

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Lord of Bays said:
Question: Why specifically a Ghost-type with Mold Breaker? Wouldn't anything with Pursuit and Mold Breaker work?
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Usually, it's in case the Shedinja throws out Endeavor (or other Normal moves) on the switch. That way, your Pokemon will be immune.

Ghost types are extremely useful, though, so it doesn't necessarily have to be your Mold Breaker. As long as you have one, Shedinja becomes less of a threat. It's just easier to handle if you have a Mold Breaker Ghost type.
 
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