BH Balanced Hackmons

DarkAtma said:
For some reason arceus counts as the selected type+Normal type correct? or i am missing something?
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It should only be normal type with a fake type being displayed fsr (even though in-game shows the correct type to all players).
edit: do you have a replay showing otherwise? because that would be a bug
edit 2: multitype + plate + different form = plate typing with form model colors
 
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ih8ih8sn0w said:
It should only be normal type with a fake type being displayed fsr (even though in-game shows the correct type to all players).
edit: do you have a replay showing otherwise? because that would be a bug
edit 2: multitype + plate + different form = plate typing with form model colors
Click to expand...

the multitype thing would explain why i have a hard time knocking items off enemy arceus pokes or why shadow thief doesnt work sometimes
 
Arceus can't lose its plate, no matter what ability it uses. That lets you make judgment that is totally impostor proof. But it will always be normal type unless you give it multitype as well as the plate. The sprite you use doesn't matter; the plate determines the type.
 
Whatwasthatnoise said:
It's really not broken, but not because Magic Bounce Mimikyu stops it. It's not broken because of how many ways it's vulnerable; you've got Magic Bouncers who stop Whirlwind/Roar, you have Pranksters to do things like Taunt or whatever, you've got Triage, you've got -ate fakespeed which is still so amazing for dealing with runaway sweepers, you have Magic Guard/Regenerator who literally do not care about hazards, you have anything with priority, etc. It's annoying, but certainly no more broken than, say, Contrary.
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Well, it's not broken like CFZs, Protean, etc. Probably more like Evasion, where if you have the counters you kill it dead and if you don't it kills you dead, while being unfun and a bit anti-competitive in the process. It's not the most broken thing, but it hardly seems healthy.
 
What is the best wall for stuff like Deoxys-A spaming Z moves? lugia is getting nuked in single hits like nothing, i got physical wall covered by fur coat MAggron

should i use shuckle? or the water cucumber?
 
DarkAtma said:
What is the best wall for stuff like Deoxys-A spaming Z moves? lugia is getting nuked in single hits like nothing, i got physical wall covered by fur coat MAggron

should i use shuckle? or the water cucumber?
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It's not very easy to wall them unfortunately. However, things like Regen-Vest M-Gyarados / M-Tyranitar / Solgaleo & Zygarde-Ultimate do an ok job. The best way to deal with them is to take an offensive route (aka. Scarf Pheromosa with the ability Dazzling & the move Twineedle) in my opinion.
 
DarkAtma said:
What is the best wall for stuff like Deoxys-A spaming Z moves? lugia is getting nuked in single hits like nothing, i got physical wall covered by fur coat MAggron

should i use shuckle? or the water cucumber?
Click to expand...
In addition to the answers above, bulky Guzzlord should be a good answer to the Deoxys spam. Resists 10,000 Volt Thunderbolt, Soul Stealing 7-Star Strike, and is immune to Genesis Supernova. Just watch out for Moonblast. Either Regenvest or Fur Coat works, depending on what you want to wall. Lightning Rod Celesteela also works to short Deoxys-A spam. Magic Coat on one of these also works wonders to hindering them!
 
Because shore up literally heals all of your hp in sand, I'm surprised I haven't seen any sand-based stall teams. I'm not good enough to think of anything proper, but would this kind of team be unviable for any reason? I get that it chips away at health but imo that's a small price to pay for a complete hp recover.

An obvious thing would be zygarde complete, as it's immune to sand and is bulky as all hell
 
Noventia said:
Because shore up literally heals all of your hp in sand, I'm surprised I haven't seen any sand-based stall teams. I'm not good enough to think of anything proper, but would this kind of team be unviable for any reason? I get that it chips away at health but imo that's a small price to pay for a complete hp recover.

An obvious thing would be zygarde complete, as it's immune to sand and is bulky as all hell
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Stall in general isn't great in BH since there are so many sweepers that can OHKO almost anything. And if you are going with stall, Poison Heal/Fur Coat/Unaware are probably much better abilities than Sand Stream, so you'd have to find room for both Sandstorm and Shore Up to accomplish anything. Feel free to try it, but I doubt it would work well.
 
chartung17 said:
Stall in general isn't great in BH since there are so many sweepers that can OHKO almost anything. And if you are going with stall, Poison Heal/Fur Coat/Unaware are probably much better abilities than Sand Stream, so you'd have to find room for both Sandstorm and Shore Up to accomplish anything. Feel free to try it, but I doubt it would work well.
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Stall is viable - it just requires much more finesse these days.


Noventia said:
Because shore up literally heals all of your hp in sand, I'm surprised I haven't seen any sand-based stall teams.
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I don't think going straight for a stall based team should be the route. Maybe one or two mons. Something like this could work:

Tyranitar-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Shore Up

It's a pseudo regen-vest mon. I've been trying to build around it - but I'm struggling.

As to why you haven't seen it around, I don't know. I know for me I'm more worried about trying to check Deo-A spam, CompaPhaze & Water-bubble with the defensive parts of my team - meaning I don't always have space to play around with sand-stream based things. There's nothing wrong with sand-stream at all though - but I think everyone else is just trying other things.
 
Yeh stall is very much viable in BH now mainly due to the incredible bulk that Zygarde-C pertains. The coverlegend moves (ie: Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam) do hurt a bit as it bypasses Unaware, but stall can also abuse the new move Spectral Theif as a nice way to stop setup as well (you need to watch out for stuff like Regiggigas and Arceus tho). Here is a stall team I posted in OM Bazarr if you would like to see how it works: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/om-bazaar-sample-teams-team-dump.3589987/#post-7151505

looking at the team now tho, I might need to replace Stealth Rock with Defog on my Registeel to bypass Comaphaze shenanigans.
 
Noventia said:
Because shore up literally heals all of your hp in sand, I'm surprised I haven't seen any sand-based stall teams. I'm not good enough to think of anything proper, but would this kind of team be unviable for any reason? I get that it chips away at health but imo that's a small price to pay for a complete hp recover.

An obvious thing would be zygarde complete, as it's immune to sand and is bulky as all hell
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If you build your team around it the chip damage can actually be a boon to stall since passive damage is what you are relying on to to most of the work so chipping at their health every turn for almost no effort is a great advantage (assuming you've planned abound it).
Also the damage will surely be useful for breaking sashes on the everpresent deoxys not to mention all rock types getting a special defense buff.
 
Sure Pheromosa is a great offensive answer to Deoxys-A spam but be careful, my Pheromosa has been throttled by prankster destiny bond, innards out, even illusion mons masquerading as deoxys-a, be aware that competent players will prepare for threats like pheromosa. If you have Pheromosa against 6 deoxys, attempt to scout for lures. That's my advice for handling deoxys-a offensively anyway
I wouldn't really rely on putting 1 or 2 defensive mons for the sole purpose of checking deoxys-a spam, simply because Deoxys-a is so stupidly strong. I mean it will work against people spamming the same harvest deoxys-a set, but against competent spammers they're capable of removing any defensive mon with at least 1 of their deoxys'. Reminds me of contrary spam to an extent
 
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I like donkeys said:
Sure Pheromosa is a great offensive answer to Deoxys-A spam but be careful, my Pheromosa has been throttled by prankster destiny bond, innards out, even illusion mons masquerading as deoxys-a, be aware that competent players will prepare for threats like pheromosa. If you have Pheromosa against 6 deoxys, attempt to scout for lures. That's my advice for handling deoxys-a offensively anyway
I wouldn't really rely on putting 1 or 2 defensive mons for the sole purpose of checking deoxys-a spam, simply because Deoxys-a is so stupidly strong. I mean it will work against people spamming the same harvest deoxys-a set, but against competent spammers they're capable of removing any defensive mon with at least 1 of their deoxys'. Reminds me of contrary spam to an extent
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Do you (or anyone) happen to have the prankster Deoxys-A set, because it sounds heat af.
 
Hi everyone! So I made this Trick Room team that's been doing pretty well so far, but I don't think it's quite at the RMT stage yet, because despite its good performance, I'm sure there's lots of pretty obvious optimizations to make.
The premise of this team was to combine Trick Room and Psychic Terrain to alleviate Trick Room's biggest weakness: priority. I chose two sweepers that could benefit from Psychic Terrain to hit incredibly hard, added a Psychic Terrain + Trick Room setter, and put in a Deoxys-Attack check.

spatial rift (Regigigas) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Knock Off
- Hammer Arm

This is my usual lead. Low Speed + Psychic Surge means that once it sets up Trick Room and explodes, Psychic Terrain will probably be up.

shimmer hill (Medicham) @ Medichamite
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psychic Fangs
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike

My first Trick Room sweeper. It takes advantage of Download before Mega Evolving, so it can ideally get +1 Attack with Pure Power. Knock Off beats Aegislash and other Psychic-types, while Sunsteel Strike deals with Fairy-types and Shed.

temporal tower (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- U-turn
- Lunar Dance
- Toxic

Because of Regigigas using Psychic Surge, I knew I'd need a Trick Room setter that could beat Deoxys-Attack. Although its power is a bit underwhelming (ideally you want to KO something with U-Turn), Aegislash is pretty good at its job.

the nightmare (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Insect Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Judgment
- Psystrike
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam

The second Trick Room sweeper. Psystrike hits incredibly hard with Psychic Terrain, and Boomburst provides good coverage. Bug-type Judgment doesn't quite OHKO Eviolite Chansey, though, which is annoying.

treeshroud forest (Sceptile-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor
- Blue Flare

This Pokemon is meant to clean late-game if I can't get up Trick Room. Psystrike is used in case Psychic Terrain is still up. I picked Sceptile-Mega because of its immunity to Spore, which my team was otherwise weak to.

dark crater (Heatran) @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
EVs: 228 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Endeavor
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock

This is my Trick Room lead against more offensive teams. Sturdy + Sticky Barb means that Heatran faints immediately after using Trick Room, so the sweepers have four turns to do their jobs.

Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-504616079 (old version)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-504733514

Weaknesses
Protect & clones: annoying because they waste valuable turns and my time
Sashes: it seems that the entire ladder is mad at me for not including a guaranteed way to set up Stealth Rock
 
I'm... just going to leave this here.

Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Tail Glow
- Roost

I just need to say... Multitype Arceus is actually good, for the sole reason that no one expects it. Is far better in Psychic Terrain than others. Also going to put this replay here because of memes, and as a showcase.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-505495752

Now pardon while I think up more utterly insane sets and teams, because I cannot believe it works so well.
 
I've been getting reacclimated to the meta recently and working on a couple of interesting sets/cores. Here's my distinctly Generation VII-ish take on the extremely effective Tinted Doom Desire Dialga + Fairy-type Magnet Pull combination that Flint invented and popularized last generation.
dialga.gif

Dialga @ Steelium Z
Ability: Steelworker / Tinted Lens
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Draco Meteor
- Tail Glow
- Shore Up / King's Shield

magearna-original.gif

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 128 SpA / 132 SpD or 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Roost / Aura Sphere

You know the general outline of how this works: Dialga uses Doom Desire, boosts up, kills even resisted stuff with the unavoidable post-turn 140 BP STAB. If a Chansey dares to come in, you trap it with the Draco Meteor-immune Magnet Pull user and Substitute on every Doom Desire before stalling it out and accumulating boosts in the process and praying the opponent doesn't have Prankster Haze. Well, Generation VII added a couple new wrinkles to this well-known template.

For one, Steelworker boosts Doom Desire to greater levels than Adaptability did, though it does do less against resisted targets than the traditional Tinted Lens.

Both of these synergize well with an item that I find personally more useful than the traditional Adamant Orb: Steelium Z. Z-powered Doom Desire hits right away, unlike its base move, and does so with 200 BP, bypassing all the risks that come with using a move that can be easily blocked with Substitute every time it is used and occasionally netting a surprise kill. This also provides the resistance to Knock Off and Trick, the latter of which in particular cripples Dialga.

Finally, a new Magnet Pull Fairy-type partner for DD Dialga, Magearna, was introduced. By virtue of its own Steel typing, Magearna can serve as an old-fashioned Magnet Pull Imposter trapper, in the vein of Keep it Playful's Dialga, in addition to trapping Impostered Doom Desire Dialga. The EVs ensure that it can live a critical hit coming off of +6 Special Attack. If you use Aura Sphere, which is obviously stronger than Moonblast against Magearna, you will need to shift over additional EVs to Special Defense. (I know Aura Sphere is a really weak move. It's on purpose. It's not weak enough that its ability to hit some Steel-types super effectively should go unnoticed.)

+6 128 SpA Magearna Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-360 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 56 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-361 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note: after this, depending on the situation and the damage roll, it may then need to win a speed tie in order to survive. However, this situation is exceedingly unlikely. Ideally, it would be behind a Substitute anyway, as no neutral attack (i.e. +0 vs. +0 or +6 vs. +6) can break one. That means that this would most likely occur in a double-crit situation, the chances of which are abysmally small. Nonetheless, just in case, and also if one encounters the rare Lucky Punch Chansey, it's best for one's team to include a Prankster Haze Pokemon (highly useful anyway).

This Magearna does have some utility outside of being an anti-Chansey meme. It can serve as a really mediocre -ate check and slightly less mediocre Triage check, especially because of its Special Defense investment, though I haven't tested it much in this capacity yet.

I know Funbot28 has also had considerable success using a similar core, but with Magearna as a Baton Passer (also with Draining Kiss), which seems like an excellent idea that would reduce the minuscule risk I just outlined and help support a team. I'll have to try it out myself.

Overall, this does require more testing, and I'm sure there are ways it can be improved. Either way, it victimizes teams that contain an Imposter, allowing one's own more-difficult-to-Imposter-proof attackers, like Stakeout Primal Groudon and random setup sweepers, to thrive.

Not especially useful replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-505420302

***

This second thing is a lot less specific, but here's a random Pokemon that might be able to make use of it:

audino-mega.gif

Audino-Mega @ Icium Z
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Haze
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
- Shore Up

This might just be a product of bad preparation for setup, but I often find myself having to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to use Haze, especially against setup sweepers that pack quite a bit of natural power, like V-create Primal Groudon. With Z-Haze, which restores HP to full (much like Z-Parting Shot), you can go back to full and then Metal Burst on the next turn, or something like that. Plus, you get Trick immunity. It's certainly worth a look. I'm very interested to see what else people will do with Z-moves, given that I haven't seen much besides Z-Parting Shot and the occasional Z-Conversion so far.

***

groudon-primal.gif

Groudon-Primal @ Earth Plate
Ability: Galvanize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe or 236 Atk / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed

This is basically just me ripping off highlighter's Zekrom set with some inspiration from IT11 to make a self-walling sweeper. Everything Chansey has becomes Electric-type. Hope to bait it in with Shell Smash and then destroy it with Judgment. Extreme Speed is good for getting surprise kills against stuff like Celesteela and Primal Kyogre, though most stuff has to be incredibly damaged to die to it, since it's extremely weak. EVs outspeed Pheromosa at +2. The main flaw in this set is its complete inability to dent Zygarde-Complete or Giratina. bp scrub ran Icicle Plate Judgment instead but no STAB sounds even worse, so I'd recommend instead pairing this Pokemon with Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, or Mega Diancie to force those things out.

edit: Funbot pointed out to me that Dialga also gets Core Enforcer as a new toy. Sounds like something worth trying out too.

Thanks for reading!
 
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Uselesscrab said:
I've been getting reacclimated to the meta recently and working on a couple of interesting sets/cores. Here's my distinctly Generation VII-ish take on the extremely effective Tinted Doom Desire Dialga + Fairy-type Magnet Pull combination that Flint invented and popularized last generation.
dialga.gif

Dialga @ Steelium Z
Ability: Steelworker / Tinted Lens
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Draco Meteor
- Tail Glow
- Shore Up / King's Shield

magearna-original.gif

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 128 SpA / 132 SpD or 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Roost / Aura Sphere

You know the general outline of how this works: Dialga uses Doom Desire, boosts up, kills even resisted stuff with the unavoidable post-turn 140 BP STAB. If a Chansey dares to come in, you trap it with the Draco Meteor-immune Magnet Pull user and Substitute on every Doom Desire before stalling it out and accumulating boosts in the process and praying the opponent doesn't have Prankster Haze. Well, Generation VII added a couple new wrinkles to this well-known template.

For one, Steelworker boosts Doom Desire to greater levels than Adaptability did, though it does do less against resisted targets than the traditional Tinted Lens.

Both of these synergize well with an item that I find personally more useful than the traditional Adamant Orb: Steelium Z. Z-powered Doom Desire hits right away, unlike its base move, and does so with 200 BP, bypassing all the risks that come with using a move that can be easily blocked with Substitute every time it is used and occasionally netting a surprise kill. This also provides the resistance to Knock Off and Trick, the latter of which in particular cripples Dialga.

Finally, a new Magnet Pull Fairy-type partner for DD Dialga, Magearna, was introduced. By virtue of its own Steel typing, Magearna can serve as an old-fashioned Magnet Pull Imposter trapper, in the vein of Keep it Playful's Dialga, in addition to trapping Impostered Doom Desire Dialga. The EVs ensure that it can live a critical hit coming off of +6 Special Attack. If you use Aura Sphere, which is obviously stronger than Moonblast against Magearna, you will need to shift over additional EVs to Special Defense. (I know Aura Sphere is a really weak move. It's on purpose. It's not weak enough that its ability to hit some Steel-types super effectively should go unnoticed.)

+6 128 SpA Magearna Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-360 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 56 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-361 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note: after this, depending on the situation and the damage roll, it may then need to win a speed tie in order to survive. However, this situation is exceedingly unlikely. Ideally, it would be behind a Substitute anyway, as no neutral attack (i.e. +0 vs. +0 or +6 vs. +6) can break one. That means that this would most likely occur in a double-crit situation, the chances of which are abysmally small. Nonetheless, just in case, and also if one encounters the rare Lucky Punch Chansey, it's best for one's team to include a Prankster Haze Pokemon (highly useful anyway).

This Magearna does have some utility outside of being an anti-Chansey meme. It can serve as a really mediocre -ate check and slightly less mediocre Triage check, especially because of its Special Defense investment, though I haven't tested it much in this capacity yet.

I know Funbot28 has also had considerable success using a similar core, but with Magearna as a Baton Passer (also with Draining Kiss), which seems like an excellent idea that would reduce the minuscule risk I just outlined and help support a team. I'll have to try it out myself.

Overall, this does require more testing, and I'm sure there are ways it can be improved. Either way, it victimizes teams that contain an Imposter, allowing one's own more-difficult-to-Imposter-proof attackers, like Stakeout Primal Groudon and random setup sweepers, to thrive.

Not especially useful replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-505420302

***

This second thing is a lot less specific, but here's a random Pokemon that might be able to make use of it:

audino-mega.gif

Audino-Mega @ Icium Z
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Haze
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
- Shore Up

This might just be a product of bad preparation for setup, but I often find myself having to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to use Haze, especially against setup sweepers that pack quite a bit of natural power, like V-create Primal Groudon. With Z-Haze, which restores HP to full (much like Z-Parting Shot), you can go back to full and then Metal Burst on the next turn, or something like that. Plus, you get Trick immunity. It's certainly worth a look. I'm very interested to see what else people will do with Z-moves, given that I haven't seen much besides Z-Parting Shot and the occasional Z-Conversion so far.

***

groudon-primal.gif

Groudon-Primal @ Earth Plate
Ability: Galvanize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe or 236 Atk / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed

This is basically just me ripping off highlighter's Zekrom set with some inspiration from IT11 to make a self-walling sweeper. Everything Chansey has becomes Electric-type. Hope to bait it in with Shell Smash and then destroy it with Judgment. Extreme Speed is good for getting surprise kills against stuff like Celesteela and Primal Kyogre, though most stuff has to be incredibly damaged to die to it, since it's extremely weak. EVs outspeed Pheromosa at +2. The main flaw in this set is its complete inability to dent Zygarde-Complete or Giratina. bp scrub ran Icicle Plate Judgment instead but no STAB sounds even worse, so I'd recommend instead pairing this Pokemon with Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, or Mega Diancie to force those things out.

edit: Funbot pointed out to me that Dialga also gets Core Enforcer as a new toy. Sounds like something worth trying out too.

Thanks for reading!
Click to expand...
Swap Earth Plate for Ground Memory, Judgment for Multi-Attack, Boomburst for whatever you like between Return, Frustation, Last Resort, Double Edge and Tail Slap and go full physical with Groudon. Except for Boomburst you should hit a bit harder, while still keeping imposterproofness. Or run Water Memory and vaporize imposters.
 
ElMustacho said:
Swap Earth Plate for Ground Memory, Judgment for Multi-Attack, Boomburst for whatever you like between Return, Frustation, Last Resort, Double Edge and Tail Slap and go full physical with Groudon. Except for Boomburst you should hit a bit harder, while still keeping imposterproofness. Or run Water Memory and vaporize imposters.
Click to expand...

I can see the merits of this, but Judgment is more powerful than Multi Attack by a wide margin against certain targets, largely by virtue of the Earth Plate boost.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 276-326 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 524-618 (130 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 351-414 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 499-588 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 354-417 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 408-481 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That said, physical would indeed be better against Pokemon like Primal Kyogre, so I see where you're coming from and will give physical a try.
 
Uselesscrab said:
I've been getting reacclimated to the meta recently and working on a couple of interesting sets/cores. Here's my distinctly Generation VII-ish take on the extremely effective Tinted Doom Desire Dialga + Fairy-type Magnet Pull combination that Flint invented and popularized last generation.
dialga.gif

Dialga @ Steelium Z
Ability: Steelworker / Tinted Lens
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Draco Meteor
- Tail Glow
- Shore Up / King's Shield

magearna-original.gif

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 128 SpA / 132 SpD or 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Roost / Aura Sphere

You know the general outline of how this works: Dialga uses Doom Desire, boosts up, kills even resisted stuff with the unavoidable post-turn 140 BP STAB. If a Chansey dares to come in, you trap it with the Draco Meteor-immune Magnet Pull user and Substitute on every Doom Desire before stalling it out and accumulating boosts in the process and praying the opponent doesn't have Prankster Haze. Well, Generation VII added a couple new wrinkles to this well-known template.

For one, Steelworker boosts Doom Desire to greater levels than Adaptability did, though it does do less against resisted targets than the traditional Tinted Lens.

Both of these synergize well with an item that I find personally more useful than the traditional Adamant Orb: Steelium Z. Z-powered Doom Desire hits right away, unlike its base move, and does so with 200 BP, bypassing all the risks that come with using a move that can be easily blocked with Substitute every time it is used and occasionally netting a surprise kill. This also provides the resistance to Knock Off and Trick, the latter of which in particular cripples Dialga.

Finally, a new Magnet Pull Fairy-type partner for DD Dialga, Magearna, was introduced. By virtue of its own Steel typing, Magearna can serve as an old-fashioned Magnet Pull Imposter trapper, in the vein of Keep it Playful's Dialga, in addition to trapping Impostered Doom Desire Dialga. The EVs ensure that it can live a critical hit coming off of +6 Special Attack. If you use Aura Sphere, which is obviously stronger than Moonblast against Magearna, you will need to shift over additional EVs to Special Defense. (I know Aura Sphere is a really weak move. It's on purpose. It's not weak enough that its ability to hit some Steel-types super effectively should go unnoticed.)

+6 128 SpA Magearna Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 132+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-360 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 56 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Magearna on a critical hit: 306-361 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note: after this, depending on the situation and the damage roll, it may then need to win a speed tie in order to survive. However, this situation is exceedingly unlikely. Ideally, it would be behind a Substitute anyway, as no neutral attack (i.e. +0 vs. +0 or +6 vs. +6) can break one. That means that this would most likely occur in a double-crit situation, the chances of which are abysmally small. Nonetheless, just in case, and also if one encounters the rare Lucky Punch Chansey, it's best for one's team to include a Prankster Haze Pokemon (highly useful anyway).

This Magearna does have some utility outside of being an anti-Chansey meme. It can serve as a really mediocre -ate check and slightly less mediocre Triage check, especially because of its Special Defense investment, though I haven't tested it much in this capacity yet.

I know Funbot28 has also had considerable success using a similar core, but with Magearna as a Baton Passer (also with Draining Kiss), which seems like an excellent idea that would reduce the minuscule risk I just outlined and help support a team. I'll have to try it out myself.

Overall, this does require more testing, and I'm sure there are ways it can be improved. Either way, it victimizes teams that contain an Imposter, allowing one's own more-difficult-to-Imposter-proof attackers, like Stakeout Primal Groudon and random setup sweepers, to thrive.

Not especially useful replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-505420302
Click to expand...


I posted a similar core some posts earlier. Try Arceus or M-Pidgeot over Magearna. It works a lot better considering you can't be spectral'd.
 
Uselesscrab said:
I can see the merits of this, but Judgment is more powerful than Multi Attack by a wide margin against certain targets, largely by virtue of the Earth Plate boost.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 276-326 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 524-618 (130 - 153.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 351-414 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 499-588 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 354-417 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Earth Plate Groudon-Primal Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 408-481 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That said, physical would indeed be better against Pokemon like Primal Kyogre, so I see where you're coming from and will give physical a try.
Click to expand...

My intention was to power up Extreme Speed, which is quite weak (compared to other users). While being a mixed attacker is nice, at +2 both sets 2HKO the targets, except unaware users. An added benefit is getting around focus sashes with Tail Slap, otherwise stuff like Dazzling/Psychic Surge Deoxys-A can survive a hit shell smashing in the meanwhile, and that's not nice.
 
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