As mentioned in the mechanics thread I linked earlier, however, Solg/Luna's signature abilities, Shadow Shield and Full Metal Body, seem to be Mold-Breaker proof: The likes of Moongeist Beam, Sunsteel Strike, Teravolt, and the like cannot bypass them, though I can't think of many ways that would be useful in this context.
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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip
- Close Combat / V-create
- Bullet Punch
This thing's power is absolutely ridiculous, people switch their Zygod or Celesteela thinking they can take a hit... they can't. There really isn't much that Sunsteel Strike can't 2HKO in the Current meta, bar like bulky Primal Don and Max defence Poison Heal Kyogre, both of which can be taken down with Power Whip. The other 2 moves are just kinda there I never really clicked them, but they're theoretically useful.
Anyway no matter how it may sound on paper, I can assure you that so far, this set has been amazing in practice. Just the satisfaction of thinking "who dying?" everytime it enters the field is worth it.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-480411987 Kartana killing PrimaDon and PhisDef Giratina.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-480907987 Kartana killing Zygod and Celesteela.
You may want to change Steelworker to Adaptability; minor change, but can be the difference between a KO or not.
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Primal Kyogre: 688-811 (332.3 - 391.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Primal Kyogre: 918-1082 (443.4 - 522.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
My math is against a good matchup, but the fact still stands that Adaptability is just a better ability overall due to split typing.
Ability: Steelworker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip
- Close Combat / V-create
- Bullet Punch
This thing's power is absolutely ridiculous, people switch their Zygod or Celesteela thinking they can take a hit... they can't. There really isn't much that Sunsteel Strike can't 2HKO in the Current meta, bar like bulky Primal Don and Max defence Poison Heal Kyogre, both of which can be taken down with Power Whip. The other 2 moves are just kinda there I never really clicked them, but they're theoretically useful.
Anyway no matter how it may sound on paper, I can assure you that so far, this set has been amazing in practice. Just the satisfaction of thinking "who dying?" everytime it enters the field is worth it.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-480411987 Kartana killing PrimaDon and PhisDef Giratina.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-480907987 Kartana killing Zygod and Celesteela.
You may want to change Steelworker to Adaptability; minor change, but can be the difference between a KO or not.
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Primal Kyogre: 688-811 (332.3 - 391.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Primal Kyogre: 918-1082 (443.4 - 522.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
My math is against a good matchup, but the fact still stands that Adaptability is just a better ability overall due to split typing.
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So if I read your post right, I should run Adapt instead of Steelworker because... both OHKO Kyogre but adapt OHKOs it more or something?
You're recommending a less powerful ability than I currently run because "It can make the difference between a KO or not."?
I already said so in my post but the only targets you'll ever need Power Whip for are both Primals, which you deal with with a regular banded Power Whip anyway. Aside from that, Grass type kinda sucks in BH and Sunsteel Strike is an infinitely better move than Power Whip would ever dream to be.
Steelworker is significantly more powerful than adapt and this difference comes in clutch very often. If you had looked at me replays you'd have noticed that in the first one I wouldn't have killed Groudon if I wasn't running Steelworker and in the second one I wouldn't have guaranteed the kill against Celesteela if I wasn't running Steelworker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 292-344 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 292-344 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 396-466 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 445-523 (100.2 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 162-191 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 181-214 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 218-257 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 244-288 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 288-340 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 339-400 (93.1 - 109.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-486189287
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 216 HP / 100 Def Zygarde: 360-424 (57.4 - 67.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 216 HP / 100 Def Zygarde: 405-477 (64.5 - 76%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 422-498 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 474-559 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 292-344 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 396-466 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 445-523 (100.2 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 162-191 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 181-214 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 218-257 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 244-288 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 288-340 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 339-400 (93.1 - 109.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-486189287
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 216 HP / 100 Def Zygarde: 360-424 (57.4 - 67.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 216 HP / 100 Def Zygarde: 405-477 (64.5 - 76%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 422-498 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Yveltal: 474-559 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, the choice between Adapt and Steelworker CAN make the difference between a KO or not... which is why I run Steelworker and not Adapt.
Sorry for the condescending tone but I've heard the same comment a million times from people who obviously never used the set. And the way you phrased it kinda pisses me off with "fact" and "just" added it to make it very clear that there there is no possible comparison between the two and that it's a very obvious thing to realize.
I don't think adapt is not worth it when you're gonna be clicking Sunsteel Strike 80% of the time.
morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Here's my opinion on gen7 so far and what should be considered for bans, but before I get into that I would like to point out a bug that still remains which is honestly really annoying to go up against. This is ofc the bug with Leppa + Zmoves where Leppa Berry has the ability to restore PP to Zmoves currently which enables running sets such as LeppaHarvest with 4 Zmoves. This is fundamentally incorrect as Zmoves do not have "PP" as the reason they are a one-time use thing is because of the Zstone requirement (and not the PP, which is basically undefined for Zmoves), which takes the whole Leppa Berry thing out of the equation.
Edit: If this isn't a bug, then consider it one of the categories for suspect/ban targets (but I'm pretty sure this has to be a bug, it makes 0 sense).
As for my opinions on suspect/ban targets:
- Zmove restriction per mon
This is basically following the same logic as megas in the BH meta where you can have as many megas on your team as the number of mons on the team (which is 6, usually). Imo, placing a 1 Zmove per mon restriction would follow the same logic where you could have as many Zmoves in your team as the number of your mons (6). This also restricts players going for Deo-A spam teams as imo these kinds of teams really aren't a representation of the BH meta imo. Not much more to add to here tbh but I am open to discussing this if people raise some valid points (piss off QT, you don't count).
- Assist
While Psychic Terrain has restricted Prankster Assist, nothing is stopping anybody from running Scarf Assist teams. I still think that running those kinds of teams are perfectly viable, but then again I haven't seen many Assist teams after the bug with Assist being able to call Zmoves was fixed. The only reason I could think of for this is that people are still trying out different things and the meta hasn't quite settled down yet, but I am fairly confident that Assist will come up as a discussion here at some point in the future (and that's when I get to say I told you so).
There are also some things currently used in the meta that imo are centralizing the meta, but I'm still not quite sure what to do about them:
- Water Bubble
Because of this ability, every team atm is running a Water Absorber. If this isn't centralizing, idk what is. On the other hand though, countering Water Bubble is fairly easy (compare this to the unpredictability of let's say Protean sets) so it's not as bad as other centralizing abilities that we had before in BH. In fact, imo Water Bubble isn't even as centralizing as -ates in gen6 (-ates could run mixed coverage which definitely made them unpredictable and hard to deal with, often resulting in teams having more than 1 -ate answer as opposed to teams currently having only 1 answer to Water Bubble) which is another reason why I'm not sure if this should be banned as -ates didn't end up getting banned in gen6 anyway...
- Psychic Terrain
An ability that finally gave HO a chance in BH. It also gave Mmy a huge buff as it is atm a very good mon to use in conjunction with Psychic Surge (which in turn centralized the meta to some extent forcing players to run things like RegenVest Solgaleo). However, we also have to consider the fact that if it weren't for Psychic Terrain, things like -ates and Triage would just be dominating the meta (especially Triage as it is now able to out-prioritize Espeed, making Owing Ray much better than the gen6 GW version especially since it could run a mixed set with Drain Punch).
- Zygarde-c
Really good tank, centralizing in the sense that everyone is running it. I don't see an issue with it though, I think it's fine. Just wanted to mention it anyway.
- Pdon?
Another one that I'm not sure about anymore either, Zygarde-c does a very good job at walling this thing (remember my PH Megachomp? This thing has like x2 the bulk). I'm not sure if I should've even bothered mentioning it at all in this post.
Edit: If this isn't a bug, then consider it one of the categories for suspect/ban targets (but I'm pretty sure this has to be a bug, it makes 0 sense).
As for my opinions on suspect/ban targets:
- Zmove restriction per mon
This is basically following the same logic as megas in the BH meta where you can have as many megas on your team as the number of mons on the team (which is 6, usually). Imo, placing a 1 Zmove per mon restriction would follow the same logic where you could have as many Zmoves in your team as the number of your mons (6). This also restricts players going for Deo-A spam teams as imo these kinds of teams really aren't a representation of the BH meta imo. Not much more to add to here tbh but I am open to discussing this if people raise some valid points (piss off QT, you don't count).
- Assist
While Psychic Terrain has restricted Prankster Assist, nothing is stopping anybody from running Scarf Assist teams. I still think that running those kinds of teams are perfectly viable, but then again I haven't seen many Assist teams after the bug with Assist being able to call Zmoves was fixed. The only reason I could think of for this is that people are still trying out different things and the meta hasn't quite settled down yet, but I am fairly confident that Assist will come up as a discussion here at some point in the future (and that's when I get to say I told you so).
There are also some things currently used in the meta that imo are centralizing the meta, but I'm still not quite sure what to do about them:
- Water Bubble
Because of this ability, every team atm is running a Water Absorber. If this isn't centralizing, idk what is. On the other hand though, countering Water Bubble is fairly easy (compare this to the unpredictability of let's say Protean sets) so it's not as bad as other centralizing abilities that we had before in BH. In fact, imo Water Bubble isn't even as centralizing as -ates in gen6 (-ates could run mixed coverage which definitely made them unpredictable and hard to deal with, often resulting in teams having more than 1 -ate answer as opposed to teams currently having only 1 answer to Water Bubble) which is another reason why I'm not sure if this should be banned as -ates didn't end up getting banned in gen6 anyway...
- Psychic Terrain
An ability that finally gave HO a chance in BH. It also gave Mmy a huge buff as it is atm a very good mon to use in conjunction with Psychic Surge (which in turn centralized the meta to some extent forcing players to run things like RegenVest Solgaleo). However, we also have to consider the fact that if it weren't for Psychic Terrain, things like -ates and Triage would just be dominating the meta (especially Triage as it is now able to out-prioritize Espeed, making Owing Ray much better than the gen6 GW version especially since it could run a mixed set with Drain Punch).
- Zygarde-c
Really good tank, centralizing in the sense that everyone is running it. I don't see an issue with it though, I think it's fine. Just wanted to mention it anyway.
- Pdon?
Another one that I'm not sure about anymore either, Zygarde-c does a very good job at walling this thing (remember my PH Megachomp? This thing has like x2 the bulk). I'm not sure if I should've even bothered mentioning it at all in this post.
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morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Also here's a bunch of cool sets I came up with, might as well take credit for these before some other people steal them (cough drampa cough) and post it here first:
Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Pin Missile
- Storm Throw
- Frost Breath
Pretty self-explanatory. Pivot, Deo-A/Mmy killer, main STAB move (with 135 power basically), and Zygarde/Ray killer. Also fk you Ruins of Alpha, you didn't even steal my Pheromosa set correctly.
Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Atk / 114 Def / 114 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Facade
- Avalanche
- Spectral Thief
Avalanche for those pesky Zygardes that try to Core Enforce to suppress PH, with -prio enables you to get off a boosted 120 BP Ice move which beats even the Unaware Zygardes. Spectral Thief beats other PH sweepers, also gives great coverage in conjunction with Facade. Run max Atk if you wanna be able to kill Def invested Zygardes with Avalanche+Facade.
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Moonblast
- Shore Up
Imo the best Water Bubble counter (Xerneas is a close second). Immune to Core Enforcer means you can switch into Water Bubble at any time. Spectral Thief for those pesky Pgres that setup on you.
Palkia @ Earth Plate
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Core Enforcer
- Judgment
- Shore Up
Last but certainly not least, imo my most creative set out of the bunch. Bluffs Water Bubble and takes out any switchin (also packs a HUGE punch regardless as long as the opponent switches out). Also easily improofable. Replace plate type if you need to take out a certain switchin. Also a Normalize Mega Gengar check ayy.
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Pin Missile
- Storm Throw
- Frost Breath
Pretty self-explanatory. Pivot, Deo-A/Mmy killer, main STAB move (with 135 power basically), and Zygarde/Ray killer. Also fk you Ruins of Alpha, you didn't even steal my Pheromosa set correctly.
Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Atk / 114 Def / 114 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Facade
- Avalanche
- Spectral Thief
Avalanche for those pesky Zygardes that try to Core Enforce to suppress PH, with -prio enables you to get off a boosted 120 BP Ice move which beats even the Unaware Zygardes. Spectral Thief beats other PH sweepers, also gives great coverage in conjunction with Facade. Run max Atk if you wanna be able to kill Def invested Zygardes with Avalanche+Facade.
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Spectral Thief
- Moonblast
- Shore Up
Imo the best Water Bubble counter (Xerneas is a close second). Immune to Core Enforcer means you can switch into Water Bubble at any time. Spectral Thief for those pesky Pgres that setup on you.
Palkia @ Earth Plate
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Core Enforcer
- Judgment
- Shore Up
Last but certainly not least, imo my most creative set out of the bunch. Bluffs Water Bubble and takes out any switchin (also packs a HUGE punch regardless as long as the opponent switches out). Also easily improofable. Replace plate type if you need to take out a certain switchin. Also a Normalize Mega Gengar check ayy.
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Just wondering how this is impostorproof?
morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Improofable, not Improof. My Magearna for example switches into the Imposter.
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It's not self imposterproof, it's easy to imposterproof (or as Rumors would have us say, easy to make imposter resistant). Any of a Water Absorb Steel (Common for Pogre checking rn, Aegislash is probs best to come in on judge freely), Chansey (252 SpA Stakeout Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 204-241 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90.5% chance to 3HKO), or Water Absorb Fairy (Maudino, usually) can come in pretty much freely and then proceed to wall.
E: Moroninja
I haven't really been able to use this on ladder effectively yet, but in theory this dumpsters on Water bubble P-Ogre's normal checks while still giving teams a lot of trouble:
Kyogre-Primal @ Steelium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Sunsteel Strike
- Precipice Blades
- Shift Gear / Shell smash
I've been using Fur-coat Zygod to check this and it works out quite well.
Kyogre-Primal @ Steelium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Sunsteel Strike
- Precipice Blades
- Shift Gear / Shell smash
I've been using Fur-coat Zygod to check this and it works out quite well.
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Faced all these interesting sets on the ladder against you in different games, and yesterday it took me quite some time to figure out that palkia is stakeout on my own. LMAO. Seems like everyone is looking for lure-in killing on the ladder, esp. water bubble counter, like the last post right above me.
Although I think Xerneas is an equal check to special Water Bubble attackers, as long as it is possible to run earth coverage potentially aiming at pdon.
Also, the idea of illusion banded pdon I faced in some battle against you is quite interesting. (In that battle, you messed up the time of sending pdon out since the terrain of mmy just ended. Otherwise I wouldn't find it out quick enough lol) Breaking special walls that switch into MMY with a banded pdon is indeed a great lure-in strategy, utilizing the 510 EV limit.
---------
Up to this point, I am wondering what we should do to make the tier more balanced, as the lure-in strategy may make the game superbly hard for certain play style. Water Bubble, and Z-move on MMY etc are perhaps the two most centralizing and prepared for threats, and lure-in strategy aims at the specific counters of the two based on prototype sets may really be a big deal.
Indeed, -ate was more centralizing in a sense in gen6, and the same issue happens due to its unpredictable coverage on either physical or special sides; but we may look at gen7 cases in its own frame anyway.
Now, considering the most reliable MMY check, perhaps regen vest solgaleo, facing a four zmove leppa MMY(not a bug iirc) that brings SSSSS, which does 80 or more to it; not to mention 10000(some more 0s)-always crit on me-bolt and secret sword that deals with yvelta, M gyarados and Mttar etc. In some way this is on the same level of difficulty of tanking protean, and this is really not balanced with the 510 ev limit.
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Lures are a staple of any metagame; BH is, as ever, just taking it well beyond everything else.
Again, the issue here is the Z-move spam. E4 Flint can we please get an answer on this because I haven't seen a single person even remotely suggesting that they should stay, only more and more examples of why they need to go
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Yeh lets talk about some balancing ideas:
Z Moves
:
I agree to adding a sort of restriction on Z moves as well. They really allow already powerful wallbreakers in their own right in Mega Mewtwo Y and Deoxys-Attack to completely demolish every single wall due to the variety of Z move type combinations that could be run. I actually quite like the concept of Z moves in theory as they act as a nice sort of powerful lure option akin to the type Gems in Gen 5, but allowing them to be used more than once (with LeppaHarvest which iirc is a glitch that does not follow in cart mechanics) and allowing more than one Z move for each mon is too volatile for the meta to handle. I agree with the proposition of restricting only one Z move for each pokemon kinda like how we have mega evolutions currently in a way.
Water Bubble
:
Water Bubble is also such an amazing ability atm that turns any Water type into a complete monster really. Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and Ash Greninja are now able to sometimes 2HKO resists such as Giratina and Mega Rayquaza with their Water type moves alone and can become extremely dangerous in conjunction with high BP moves such as Water Spout and Steam Eruption. However, the meta has really adapted to it as legit every team I run into has at least one water immune mon in usually Zygarde-C or Primal Groudon. This could lead into arguments of overcentralization, but like how it was brought up before, -ates really necessitated sometimes even 2 counters to it back in Gen 6. We could decide to not look back at back precedent this gen, but it still something that is pretty important to bring up. I wouldn't mind a suspect down the line, but for now I think its manageable.
Psychic Terrain
:
Psychic Terrain is such an important buff to setup sweepers (in particular MMY and even been seeing Hoopa-U been run a lot) as the priority block + the 50% boost to Psychic moves are two great aspects that allow Psychic type setup sweepers to be so hard to deal with as one of the only forms of stopping setup sweepers last gen was mainly relying on priority moves to revenge kill. I could see this being suspected alone since Dazzling and Queenly Majesty do not provide the Psychic attack boost which is honestly what pushes this over the edge imo.
The Primals
:
To be honest, I thought the Primals would be yet again a broken force when they were allowed initially. However, after a bit more playtesting I kinda feel they add a healthy presence to the meta due to their bulk and power that keeps other alarming things (mainly Zygarde-C and Mega Rayquaza) in check. They also aqwardly balance each other out whether it comes to Water Absorb Primal Groudon walling Kyogre and Mold Breaker/Core Enforcer Primal Kyogre breaking through Primal Groudon. They can definitely become a nuisance after a little while when the meta settles a bit more, but for now they are fine especially compared to the other things we have right now...
TL;DR:
I agree to adding a sort of restriction on Z moves as well. They really allow already powerful wallbreakers in their own right in Mega Mewtwo Y and Deoxys-Attack to completely demolish every single wall due to the variety of Z move type combinations that could be run. I actually quite like the concept of Z moves in theory as they act as a nice sort of powerful lure option akin to the type Gems in Gen 5, but allowing them to be used more than once (with LeppaHarvest which iirc is a glitch that does not follow in cart mechanics) and allowing more than one Z move for each mon is too volatile for the meta to handle. I agree with the proposition of restricting only one Z move for each pokemon kinda like how we have mega evolutions currently in a way.
Water Bubble is also such an amazing ability atm that turns any Water type into a complete monster really. Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and Ash Greninja are now able to sometimes 2HKO resists such as Giratina and Mega Rayquaza with their Water type moves alone and can become extremely dangerous in conjunction with high BP moves such as Water Spout and Steam Eruption. However, the meta has really adapted to it as legit every team I run into has at least one water immune mon in usually Zygarde-C or Primal Groudon. This could lead into arguments of overcentralization, but like how it was brought up before, -ates really necessitated sometimes even 2 counters to it back in Gen 6. We could decide to not look back at back precedent this gen, but it still something that is pretty important to bring up. I wouldn't mind a suspect down the line, but for now I think its manageable.
Psychic Terrain is such an important buff to setup sweepers (in particular MMY and even been seeing Hoopa-U been run a lot) as the priority block + the 50% boost to Psychic moves are two great aspects that allow Psychic type setup sweepers to be so hard to deal with as one of the only forms of stopping setup sweepers last gen was mainly relying on priority moves to revenge kill. I could see this being suspected alone since Dazzling and Queenly Majesty do not provide the Psychic attack boost which is honestly what pushes this over the edge imo.
To be honest, I thought the Primals would be yet again a broken force when they were allowed initially. However, after a bit more playtesting I kinda feel they add a healthy presence to the meta due to their bulk and power that keeps other alarming things (mainly Zygarde-C and Mega Rayquaza) in check. They also aqwardly balance each other out whether it comes to Water Absorb Primal Groudon walling Kyogre and Mold Breaker/Core Enforcer Primal Kyogre breaking through Primal Groudon. They can definitely become a nuisance after a little while when the meta settles a bit more, but for now they are fine especially compared to the other things we have right now...
TL;DR:
- Restrict the access of only one Z move allowed per pokemon (and fix the LeppaHarvest shenanigans).
- Maybe suspect Water Bubble down the line
- Suspect Psychic Terrain (as the prio blocking ability) only
- Do not suspect the Primals, but tag a red flag
I may state an opinion on potential bans, but for now I just want to make one thing clear, since I've already seen this misconception several times and imagine it will appear many more..
This is incorrect.
Hi! many of you guys probably don't know me but I've been an avid balanced hackmons fan since gen 5 but lost interest in it for much of gen 6. With gen 7 I would like to talk about my opinions on many of abilities, pokemon, and z-moves.
z-move restriction:
I honestly believe some more time should be waited on setting a limit or restriction on z moves yet. I honestly think since there's so few z moves that are usable on moveslot, it should be relatively possible to be able to counter them. Pokemon such as assvest regen solgaleo in conjunction with other steels or bulky mons actually serves as quite a good and solid coutner to the leppa harvest strat. Ofc theres the problem of the high crit ratio of the tbolt z move but i still think you can force our a solid counter with good pivots on balance. For deo-a spam: I honestly dont think its as big of a problem as it may seem to be many of the same mons used to counter other abilities such as water bubble (bulky spdef mon) or -ate (solgaleo) can be used to counter deo-a and z moves as whole. One can argue the unpredictability of what kind of z move (physical or special) is relatively hard to know which switch in, that same logic cudve been shone to physical bias vs special bias ray aerilate in gen 6 and was still relatively able to be countered. Also z moves themselves only have 1 pp and thus can be used to ure advantage in that ure pokemon only need to survive a single onslaught to be able to survive (this is ofc not talking about leppa harvest). My current opinion on z moves thus is that they are relatively predictable and can be coutnered with mons that are countering other abilities at the same time. If this unpredictability of z moves however does increase I could see a shift to a z-move restriction being placed but for now Im still of the belief they are manageable.
Water Bubble:
This is a slightly easier to topic to discuss as I think water bubble shares much of the same attributes as -ates. If you don't prepare with a surefire counter you will be swept. Water absorb ofc the main option, I do find it slightly over centralizing in that fact, as -ates or zmoves for that matter do not limit the user to a single ability to counter. Though I guess there are other abilities I believe water absorb to be the main conditioner (also desolate land). I discussed with Flint also and i told him it was akin it to perm drizzle in gen 5 as either another weather or a surefire counter was needed but still manageable, I still find water bubble quite easy to handle but again can be twisted to be unpredictable. Again I think a grace period for while longer before discussing restrictions on it.
PDon and POgre:
Actually not as bad. Tho the spam of 5 dons or 5 ogres can be slightly annoying if they overwhelm ure general counters to them. Overall i find the bulk and flexibility of these pokemon appreciable in such an offensive meta.
TLDR:
Z-moves aren't that bad as limited move pool and pp wise makes them rather easy to take advantage of but can still be restricting. Perhaps should be restricted if it becomes too much out of hand?
Water bubble restricting but manageable, wait and see before deciding on restrictions on that (also lol basically just drizzle 2.0 from gen 5). Perhaps should be restricted in a similar vein as -ate from gen 6 if it becomes too much out of hand?
Some sets:
z-move restriction:
I honestly believe some more time should be waited on setting a limit or restriction on z moves yet. I honestly think since there's so few z moves that are usable on moveslot, it should be relatively possible to be able to counter them. Pokemon such as assvest regen solgaleo in conjunction with other steels or bulky mons actually serves as quite a good and solid coutner to the leppa harvest strat. Ofc theres the problem of the high crit ratio of the tbolt z move but i still think you can force our a solid counter with good pivots on balance. For deo-a spam: I honestly dont think its as big of a problem as it may seem to be many of the same mons used to counter other abilities such as water bubble (bulky spdef mon) or -ate (solgaleo) can be used to counter deo-a and z moves as whole. One can argue the unpredictability of what kind of z move (physical or special) is relatively hard to know which switch in, that same logic cudve been shone to physical bias vs special bias ray aerilate in gen 6 and was still relatively able to be countered. Also z moves themselves only have 1 pp and thus can be used to ure advantage in that ure pokemon only need to survive a single onslaught to be able to survive (this is ofc not talking about leppa harvest). My current opinion on z moves thus is that they are relatively predictable and can be coutnered with mons that are countering other abilities at the same time. If this unpredictability of z moves however does increase I could see a shift to a z-move restriction being placed but for now Im still of the belief they are manageable.
Water Bubble:
This is a slightly easier to topic to discuss as I think water bubble shares much of the same attributes as -ates. If you don't prepare with a surefire counter you will be swept. Water absorb ofc the main option, I do find it slightly over centralizing in that fact, as -ates or zmoves for that matter do not limit the user to a single ability to counter. Though I guess there are other abilities I believe water absorb to be the main conditioner (also desolate land). I discussed with Flint also and i told him it was akin it to perm drizzle in gen 5 as either another weather or a surefire counter was needed but still manageable, I still find water bubble quite easy to handle but again can be twisted to be unpredictable. Again I think a grace period for while longer before discussing restrictions on it.
PDon and POgre:
Actually not as bad. Tho the spam of 5 dons or 5 ogres can be slightly annoying if they overwhelm ure general counters to them. Overall i find the bulk and flexibility of these pokemon appreciable in such an offensive meta.
TLDR:
Z-moves aren't that bad as limited move pool and pp wise makes them rather easy to take advantage of but can still be restricting. Perhaps should be restricted if it becomes too much out of hand?
Water bubble restricting but manageable, wait and see before deciding on restrictions on that (also lol basically just drizzle 2.0 from gen 5). Perhaps should be restricted in a similar vein as -ate from gen 6 if it becomes too much out of hand?
Some sets:
Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 120 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Recover
P effective deoa spam check and well alot of stuff check. Evs are meant to outspeed Megamewtwo Y after +1 while maximizes both ure defenses. Serves as a normalize gengar counter also with spooky plate judgement. Also in general rather hard to kill if it can get up the quiver dances. It needs a bit of support with other mons using haze and spectral thief to also minimize set uppers that cud serve as actual threats to this unaware due to its normal typing. Overall a fun mon and easily beats deo-a if u can get to +2 with qd. Also can't be spectral thief'd.
Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Gastro Acid
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
Great physical check to alot of set uppers and a sure fire ph set up counters. I use gastro acid to ensure the nullify effect tho you can use core enforcer if you arent paranoid about avalanche phers. Toxic spikes is also p effective in that it spreads poison and since rapid has gained much more traction as hazard removal giratina will continue to serve as a great counter to such strats. Effective groudon check.
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 120 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Recover
P effective deoa spam check and well alot of stuff check. Evs are meant to outspeed Megamewtwo Y after +1 while maximizes both ure defenses. Serves as a normalize gengar counter also with spooky plate judgement. Also in general rather hard to kill if it can get up the quiver dances. It needs a bit of support with other mons using haze and spectral thief to also minimize set uppers that cud serve as actual threats to this unaware due to its normal typing. Overall a fun mon and easily beats deo-a if u can get to +2 with qd. Also can't be spectral thief'd.
Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Gastro Acid
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
Great physical check to alot of set uppers and a sure fire ph set up counters. I use gastro acid to ensure the nullify effect tho you can use core enforcer if you arent paranoid about avalanche phers. Toxic spikes is also p effective in that it spreads poison and since rapid has gained much more traction as hazard removal giratina will continue to serve as a great counter to such strats. Effective groudon check.
I'd like to point out to those who keep saying "but -ates were more overcentralizing!": Yes, perhaps, BUT towards the end of Gen VI a hefty chunk of the player base want to restrict -ates even farther or just outright ban the abilities. If Gen VII wasn't this year, we'd probably be having a suspect test on them right now, if not a month or two ago. Heck, we might have had that suspect test anyway if consensus on what the options were to deal with them since the -ate situation was becoming quite a convoluted mess* if you weren't in the "do nothing" or "outright ban" camps.
So yeah... just keep in mind when comparing anything to this gen to -ates requiring one or two dedicated checks/counters in order for a team to function, that -ates requiring that had a large group consensus that wasn't healthy at all and that we're probably be in the process of voting to break its legs or just finally saw them off.
*If you're curious, options people discussed but was not limited to: ban Pixelate and Aerilate but not Refrigerate, ban -ate priority, ban -ate Boomburst, ban -ate STAB, ban -ate only on Rayquaza and/or Diancie, and some other things. Yeah... if you felt -ate was broken but still needed in the tier... it was a friggin' mess figuring out how to fix it.
So yeah... just keep in mind when comparing anything to this gen to -ates requiring one or two dedicated checks/counters in order for a team to function, that -ates requiring that had a large group consensus that wasn't healthy at all and that we're probably be in the process of voting to break its legs or just finally saw them off.
*If you're curious, options people discussed but was not limited to: ban Pixelate and Aerilate but not Refrigerate, ban -ate priority, ban -ate Boomburst, ban -ate STAB, ban -ate only on Rayquaza and/or Diancie, and some other things. Yeah... if you felt -ate was broken but still needed in the tier... it was a friggin' mess figuring out how to fix it.
Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- Power Whip
- Gear Grind
Here's a set I've been using as a revenge killer/cleaner. Obviously it lacks the power of banded sets but has good use in outspeeding frail offensive mons and is basically my way of beating all non scarfed deoxys verities and with adamant still beats Deoxys Attack.
Random calc:
252 Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 211-250 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Gear grind for sash spam and bullet punch because I couldn't think of a better option and even with psychic terrain priority is still useful.
P.s. If I accidentally repeated a set that was posted here pls let me know.
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bullet Punch
- Power Whip
- Gear Grind
Here's a set I've been using as a revenge killer/cleaner. Obviously it lacks the power of banded sets but has good use in outspeeding frail offensive mons and is basically my way of beating all non scarfed deoxys verities and with adamant still beats Deoxys Attack.
Random calc:
252 Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 211-250 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regigigas: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Gear grind for sash spam and bullet punch because I couldn't think of a better option and even with psychic terrain priority is still useful.
P.s. If I accidentally repeated a set that was posted here pls let me know.
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Look again. I think there is enough difference of opinion to deserve a suspect and not an outright ban. My own opinions are similar to sugarhigh. The first topic in the new suspects thread would be about z moves which shall be posted when I receive the go ahead so you don't need to page me lol. I guess since we don't have one yet you all can discuss the merits for/against having either
- one Crystal Free Z move per mon
- one CFZ move per team
- ban certain CFZs along/without a limit
I am really enjoying seeing the sets posted here and I guess this is partially my fault for starting the thread with one, but the purpose should be to share interesting or notable sets that we've made or seen on the ladder. Posting just to put your "stake" is fine I guess, but there's no need to say "omg he stole that set from me" esp if your set is a natural result of what is going on anyway; I've run Scarf Phero myself with Dazzling Twinneedle for DeoA spam and mold hazard setters have been a staple for two gens now. Let's get past this attitude.
I don't want to get into the business of comparing across gens. For one thing, how far back do you go? If you look two gens back, pokemon bans were completely out of the question, and Spore, which imo was arguably the most centralizing thing ever seen in a settled BH meta till date, was left in the entire gen without any kind of limitation; this is in a gen where there was a sleep reset counter, and Spore affected every mon.
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I seem to remember G6BH banned PDon without Red Orb/DesoLand. What happened then and how has it changed now that it's not similarly restricted in G7?
This is now up: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...uspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/#post-7115493
I also tried to trim a lot of the fluff from the last one and make it easier to read especially for newcomers
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
One new set I have tested is a powerful defensive Dialga Set.
Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Tail Glow
- Doom Desire
- Spectral Thief
- Substitute
I have been testing this set.
It works pretty well against HO teams that lack Spectral Thief.
The good thing about Doom Desire is that it takes boosts after use into consideration, so if you Substitute, Doom Desire, then Tail Glow 2x, you have a more powerful attack. Not to mention, your foes' waste turns boosting up against you before you steal their boosts.
Spectral Thief also helps hit behind Substitute. If they have Spectral Thief you are still Unaware, and you can KO the foes. The HP Evs give it an HP # divisible by 16 + 1 for using 5 Substitutes with Leftovers.
Also, Dialga has the Defenses and typing to take heavy hits, being only weak to 2 types, and besides Groudon/Zygarde, Thousand Arrows is much less common that Sunsteel Strike- which Dialga resists,
Fighting moves are typically from Contrary Mewtwo X or Drain Punch Triage users, which are handled by teammates like MMY with Psychic Surge.
Substitute helps make it cover Imposter users.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Moongeist Beam
- Stoked Sparksurfer
or defensive Teammates like Unaware Luga that resists Dialga only weaknesses:
Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Beak Blast
- Whirlwind
- Roost
Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Tail Glow
- Doom Desire
- Spectral Thief
- Substitute
I have been testing this set.
It works pretty well against HO teams that lack Spectral Thief.
The good thing about Doom Desire is that it takes boosts after use into consideration, so if you Substitute, Doom Desire, then Tail Glow 2x, you have a more powerful attack. Not to mention, your foes' waste turns boosting up against you before you steal their boosts.
Spectral Thief also helps hit behind Substitute. If they have Spectral Thief you are still Unaware, and you can KO the foes. The HP Evs give it an HP # divisible by 16 + 1 for using 5 Substitutes with Leftovers.
Also, Dialga has the Defenses and typing to take heavy hits, being only weak to 2 types, and besides Groudon/Zygarde, Thousand Arrows is much less common that Sunsteel Strike- which Dialga resists,
Fighting moves are typically from Contrary Mewtwo X or Drain Punch Triage users, which are handled by teammates like MMY with Psychic Surge.
Substitute helps make it cover Imposter users.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Moongeist Beam
- Stoked Sparksurfer
or defensive Teammates like Unaware Luga that resists Dialga only weaknesses:
Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Beak Blast
- Whirlwind
- Roost
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So I've been wondering why my semistall team has been failing, and I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot more offensive threats to cover than in ORAS. Here's a partial list, in approximate order of frequency on the ladder:
* water bubble (kyogre, greninja ash, palkia, and some lures like MMY)
* Genesis Supernova/Psychic terrain psystrike
* -Atespeed (mega Ray, Mega Diancie, Zekrom, Kyurem-b, Weavile, MMX)
* Triage + draining moves (Mega ray oblivion wing, MMX drain punch, Mega Heracross leech life/drain punch)
* Setup Sweepers (Simple + Shell Smash, Z-geomancy, z-conversion, Belly Drum, sub-tail glow-Doom Desire) + Sunsteel Strike to ignore Unaware
* Multi-z-moves (Deoxys-A or other high-atk mons with Focus Sash)
* Permanent trapping (Anchor shot, Thousand Waves, spider web)
* Innards Out (opponent can force a beneficial trade just by switching into your wincon)
* Mold Breaker Entry Hazards/spore/status.
* Impostor (When we make vr I am betting Chansey won't be s+ rank anymore, probably like A+, simply because Impostor is used a lot less currently, though that could be because people are just playing with their new toys. And Fur Coat Chansey can't stand up to random Sunsteel Strike coverage on things.)
* Random spore on just about anything
* Contrary sweepers
* Adaptability (P-don, Cartana (can also run steelworker))
* Prankster Assist spam (This is pretty low down the list now that it doesn't call z moves, but it's still a threat)
Has anyone actually made a successful stall team with the current meta? I've tried and just can't. My team can stop most of the stuff in the top half of the list, but it just loses to a lot of things in the bottom, like contrary sweepers. So you make a standard team to beat most of the standard stuff running around and then you just die to some weird lure set someone made and it all falls down.
Note this is not meant as a complaint, just an observation. I am predominantly a balance and stall player in BH and was a little disappointed when my team couldn't win. I'll have to go back to the drawing board and make a HO team so I can just sweep my opponents aside.
* water bubble (kyogre, greninja ash, palkia, and some lures like MMY)
* Genesis Supernova/Psychic terrain psystrike
* -Atespeed (mega Ray, Mega Diancie, Zekrom, Kyurem-b, Weavile, MMX)
* Triage + draining moves (Mega ray oblivion wing, MMX drain punch, Mega Heracross leech life/drain punch)
* Setup Sweepers (Simple + Shell Smash, Z-geomancy, z-conversion, Belly Drum, sub-tail glow-Doom Desire) + Sunsteel Strike to ignore Unaware
* Multi-z-moves (Deoxys-A or other high-atk mons with Focus Sash)
* Permanent trapping (Anchor shot, Thousand Waves, spider web)
* Innards Out (opponent can force a beneficial trade just by switching into your wincon)
* Mold Breaker Entry Hazards/spore/status.
* Impostor (When we make vr I am betting Chansey won't be s+ rank anymore, probably like A+, simply because Impostor is used a lot less currently, though that could be because people are just playing with their new toys. And Fur Coat Chansey can't stand up to random Sunsteel Strike coverage on things.)
* Random spore on just about anything
* Contrary sweepers
* Adaptability (P-don, Cartana (can also run steelworker))
* Prankster Assist spam (This is pretty low down the list now that it doesn't call z moves, but it's still a threat)
Has anyone actually made a successful stall team with the current meta? I've tried and just can't. My team can stop most of the stuff in the top half of the list, but it just loses to a lot of things in the bottom, like contrary sweepers. So you make a standard team to beat most of the standard stuff running around and then you just die to some weird lure set someone made and it all falls down.
Note this is not meant as a complaint, just an observation. I am predominantly a balance and stall player in BH and was a little disappointed when my team couldn't win. I'll have to go back to the drawing board and make a HO team so I can just sweep my opponents aside.
Hey, I'm enjoying Queenly Majesty/Dazzling a lot and it is one of the scariest abilties to face.
For me, the best pokemon to put these abilities on would be the fast and strong megas we got such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, and maybe Mega Alakazam. Right now, I have only used Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile but they are working great.
With Life Orb, Frustration/Return, U-Turn, King's Shield, and Close Combat on Mega Lopunny, it outspeeds Mega Rayquaza and can 2hko it. For example, Aerilate Mega Ray use Fake Out first turn, you use Frustration then second turn, Mega Ray goes Clanging Scales but you outspeed and kill it. Also same situation with Triage Oblivon Wing. I normally use Mega Lopunny as a lead and it works great. To be honest, I like Mega Lopunny more because it beats the normal types I can not Spectral Thief (although I have Levitate Topsy Turvy Solgaleo for that too). Close Combat and Frustration/Return are great STAB moves, Life Orb for more damage, King's Shield to scout attacks (Spiky Shield works too for Endeavor Shedinja), and U-Turn to switch to another pokemon and deal damage. You can also switch U-Turn with Knock Off to OHKO Mega Gengar (still doesn't OHKO Mega Mewtwo Y).
normals (Lopunny-Mega) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- King's Shield
- U-turn
- Frustration
For Mega Sceptile, I use Expert Belt, Seed Flare, Spiky Shield, Clanging Scales, and Substitute. Mega Sceptile is great because it has more speed than Mega Lopunny and can even outspeed Mega Mewtwo forms... You could replace Substitute and Expert Belt with Judgment Spooky Plate to OHKO Mega Gengar. Clanging Scales goes through Substitutes and can OHKO Mega Rayquaza. Seed Flare can knock out Mega Diancie but be careful of choice scarfed ones. Substitute is to have "another life" just in case they switch or you know they are going to use a priority move... Spiky Shield for scouting attacks and Shedinja.
Sceptile-Mega (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Substitute
- Seed Flare
- Spiky Shield
Mega Sceptile Calcs:
252 SpA Expert Belt Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 348-413 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 377-447 (59.2 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
(Spooky Plate Judgment set) 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 290-344 (45.5 - 54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Spooky Plate Sceptile-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 390-458 (111.1 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Sceptile-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 244-288 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 183-216 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Diancie-Mega: 378-446 (156.8 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*basically 2hko Zygarde-C (with actually 216 health put in) if Life Orb, OHKO Mega Gengar if Spooky Plate Judgment, OHKO Mega Rayquaza with or without damage boosting items, 2hko Mega Mewtwo Y, OHKO Mega Diancie*
Mega Lopunny Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diancie-Mega: 242-286 (100.4 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Yveltal: 231-274 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 224-265 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Solgaleo: 231-274 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 369-437 (101.3 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regigigas: 484-572 (114.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 452-533 (109.1 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 619-733 (204.9 - 242.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 341-403 (130.6 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*OHKO Mega Diancie but beware of scarfed, 2hko Yveltal, high chance to 2hko Solgaleo but Psychic Fangs from it has like 60% chance to OHKO you, OHKO Specially Defensive Registeel, OHKO Regigigas, OHKO Arceus, OHKO Hoopa Unbound with any move, OHKO Mengar Gengar with Knock Off* Also 2hko Mega Mewtwo Y with U-Turn or Frustration but Mega Mewtwo Y can outspeed and OHKO you with Genesis Supernova or Psystrike.
I don't use both in a team together and you should get other pokemon that counter their counters and counters imposters... For example, scarfed Mega Diancie could beat both of them and I have a Solgaleo in my both teams... One has Levitate for Earth Power.. I have a Giratina because Mega Lopunny just can not touch it.
For me, the best pokemon to put these abilities on would be the fast and strong megas we got such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, and maybe Mega Alakazam. Right now, I have only used Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile but they are working great.
With Life Orb, Frustration/Return, U-Turn, King's Shield, and Close Combat on Mega Lopunny, it outspeeds Mega Rayquaza and can 2hko it. For example, Aerilate Mega Ray use Fake Out first turn, you use Frustration then second turn, Mega Ray goes Clanging Scales but you outspeed and kill it. Also same situation with Triage Oblivon Wing. I normally use Mega Lopunny as a lead and it works great. To be honest, I like Mega Lopunny more because it beats the normal types I can not Spectral Thief (although I have Levitate Topsy Turvy Solgaleo for that too). Close Combat and Frustration/Return are great STAB moves, Life Orb for more damage, King's Shield to scout attacks (Spiky Shield works too for Endeavor Shedinja), and U-Turn to switch to another pokemon and deal damage. You can also switch U-Turn with Knock Off to OHKO Mega Gengar (still doesn't OHKO Mega Mewtwo Y).
normals (Lopunny-Mega) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- King's Shield
- U-turn
- Frustration
For Mega Sceptile, I use Expert Belt, Seed Flare, Spiky Shield, Clanging Scales, and Substitute. Mega Sceptile is great because it has more speed than Mega Lopunny and can even outspeed Mega Mewtwo forms... You could replace Substitute and Expert Belt with Judgment Spooky Plate to OHKO Mega Gengar. Clanging Scales goes through Substitutes and can OHKO Mega Rayquaza. Seed Flare can knock out Mega Diancie but be careful of choice scarfed ones. Substitute is to have "another life" just in case they switch or you know they are going to use a priority move... Spiky Shield for scouting attacks and Shedinja.
Sceptile-Mega (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Substitute
- Seed Flare
- Spiky Shield
Mega Sceptile Calcs:
252 SpA Expert Belt Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 348-413 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 377-447 (59.2 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
(Spooky Plate Judgment set) 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 290-344 (45.5 - 54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Spooky Plate Sceptile-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar-Mega: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 390-458 (111.1 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Sceptile-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 244-288 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 183-216 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Diancie-Mega: 378-446 (156.8 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*basically 2hko Zygarde-C (with actually 216 health put in) if Life Orb, OHKO Mega Gengar if Spooky Plate Judgment, OHKO Mega Rayquaza with or without damage boosting items, 2hko Mega Mewtwo Y, OHKO Mega Diancie*
Mega Lopunny Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diancie-Mega: 242-286 (100.4 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Yveltal: 231-274 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 224-265 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Solgaleo: 231-274 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 369-437 (101.3 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regigigas: 484-572 (114.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 452-533 (109.1 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 619-733 (204.9 - 242.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lopunny-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar-Mega: 341-403 (130.6 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*OHKO Mega Diancie but beware of scarfed, 2hko Yveltal, high chance to 2hko Solgaleo but Psychic Fangs from it has like 60% chance to OHKO you, OHKO Specially Defensive Registeel, OHKO Regigigas, OHKO Arceus, OHKO Hoopa Unbound with any move, OHKO Mengar Gengar with Knock Off* Also 2hko Mega Mewtwo Y with U-Turn or Frustration but Mega Mewtwo Y can outspeed and OHKO you with Genesis Supernova or Psystrike.
I don't use both in a team together and you should get other pokemon that counter their counters and counters imposters... For example, scarfed Mega Diancie could beat both of them and I have a Solgaleo in my both teams... One has Levitate for Earth Power.. I have a Giratina because Mega Lopunny just can not touch it.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
I think you can add Unburden to that list. I have seen numerous Unburden Kartana and have personally created an Unburden Spore/Belly Drum/Power Trip/Sunsteel Strike Mega Tyranitar. Kartana would simply replace Power Trip with Power Whip.
The item is Sitrus berry because it heals immediately after Belly Drum and triggers the ability without any text, so the foe will not know if it is a Harvest replenishing set or Unburden. Just make sure the HP is an even number.
You can even run Sticky Web so your foe is slower, allowing you to Spore them first, then Belly Drum on their switch, and outspeed the next foe.
Kartana works especially well because it resists: Aqua Jet, Water Shuriken, Bullet Punch, Accelerock, Extreme Speed (including Pixelate from Diance or Galvanize from Zekrom), Fake out, and is Spore proof.
Unburden is also Imposter proof because they don't have their Unburden activated due to a lack of consumable item. So if Chansey switches into my Tyranitar, I Spore then Sunsteel Strike (Chansey with Eviolite survives it).
I have also used Unburden on Kyogre with a Psychic Seed so it can switch in while Psychic Terrain is active, get a +1 Sp Def. and double the speed without the foe knowing that Kyogre will hit first next turn either with Spore or Steam Eruption.
Unburden can be run on anything with moderate speed and with a seed item if you need it to activate immediately.
I have also run Sceptile with Sceptilelite with success due to Electrify improving its Special Attack and forcing switches, allowing you to Substitute. Mega Sceptile gains Lightning Rod
Grassy Surge makes up for a lack of Life Orb, and heals after you have used Sub.
Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Max Speed, Max SpA
Grassy Surge
Timid
Sub
Electrify
Seed Flare
Clanging Scales
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Probably the best QM user is Mega Gengar. With 170 SPA and perfect neutral coverage in Spooky plate Judgment and Secret sword, that blazing 130 speed stat can outspeed most stuff that can actually take a hit from it and land an easy 2hKO. The Gengar user does have to predict well, but as long as he doesn't play too recklessly with it, it can work well as a decent hit and runner. The plate also makes it impostorproof in 95% of cases. It's probably a lot more than that now because a lot of chansey have to fear trap moves and run a shed shell for that in this meta thanks to Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle.
Those sets are cool and I can see them being really useful for walling common priority threats but I'd suggest maybe using deoxys attack since it is so quick and powerful normally anything without priority dies before it can hit you.
Also if you ever do use mega zam or deoxys maybe psychic surge is better for the boost to their already powerful STABs (as long as you're not going to stay in for more than 5 turns) although this does give away your ability so removes the chance of them giving away a free turn.
On an unrelated note: One set I've faced on the ladder that caught me off guard was Fur Coat primal kyogre. It fooled me into thinking it was standard water bubble stuff then tanked all my hits after I'd lost what could actually kill it.