BH Balanced Hackmons

[tommytt22]

Heracross-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Ice Hammer

Any thoughts on this set? Sunsteel strike is solely to kill shedinja, first impression has priority and murders a lot when you come in, although psychic terrain does hinder this. Close combat hits incredibly hard and ice hammer is a cool new coverage move and deals a lot of damage to zygarde-c.

 

[ARandomNoob]

>Queenly Majesty
I personally use this with Primal Groudon just to fuck with people. It can run the coverage moves to fuck with every -ate FakeSpeed, its bulky as hell, and gets a wicked Heat Crash on several mons.

Dinosaur King (Groudon-Primal)@Leftovers
Ability: Queenly Majesty
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Rock Slide
-Thousand Arrows
-Thousand Waves
-Heat Crash

I mostly use Waves to trap -ate FakeSpeed users who don't know what they're facing yet. Arguably Spirit Shackle might be better for this purpose, but without any real boosting means, this set enjoys the STAB far more, and has Rock Slide for fliers anyhow.

 

[Orangutan]

>Queenly Majesty
I personally use this with Primal Groudon just to fuck with people. It can run the coverage moves to fuck with every -ate FakeSpeed, its bulky as hell, and gets a wicked Heat Crash on several mons.

Dinosaur King (Groudon-Primal)@Leftovers
Ability: Queenly Majesty
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Rock Slide
-Thousand Arrows
-Thousand Waves
-Heat Crash

I mostly use Waves to trap -ate FakeSpeed users who don't know what they're facing yet. Arguably Spirit Shackle might be better for this purpose, but without any real boosting means, this set enjoys the STAB far more, and has Rock Slide for fliers anyhow.

would Assault Vest be nice

 

[Rumors]

Anti-priority got you down? Don't have a good way to manipulate speed without running a Scarf and risking getting locked into a bad mood? Well, I have good news! Quick Feet Shaymin-Sky Mega Rayquaza is back from last generation and is stronger than ever!


Rayquaza-Mega @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Ice Beam
- Tail Glow
- Earth Power


This set outspeeds pesky everything-not-using-priority and nukes them while sustaining itself as if it was a Triage Rayqauza. Psychic Terrain up? Who cares, that Mewtwo is still dead. Imposter? If you get your boost and your orb activated, you one-shot opposing Evolite Chansey 100% of the time with Ice Beam. Earth Power plows through Steels and Primaldons who don't have Assault Vest. And if you get the chance to boost more, that won't even stop you! Between the priority nerf and burn nerf, my oldie set got a good deal more viable! Just make sure you have Shedinja out of the way. Or you can run Moongeist beam for it and Unaware.

 

[SuperSkylake]

Heracross-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Ice Hammer

Any thoughts on this set? Sunsteel strike is solely to kill shedinja, first impression has priority and murders a lot when you come in, although psychic terrain does hinder this. Close combat hits incredibly hard and ice hammer is a cool new coverage move and deals a lot of damage to zygarde-c.

Triage Mega Rayquaza destroys this set with a +3 priority The problem with this set is that it's just too slow. First Impression only works on the first turn out and only has a bp of 90, which, even though it has adaptability stab, doesn't ohko Neutral walls like Groudon or Kyogre
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Primal Kyogre: 346-408 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Heracross First Impression vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 110-131 (27.2 - 32.4%) -- 57.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Triage Oblivion Wing. completely owns this thing and both offensive Yveltal and Mega Ray outspeed it. This set might work really well if you combine it with a psychic terrain setter such as MMY though. Primal Groudon and Kyogre outspeeds it and can take a first impression from it. Fur Coat Zygarde C can even take Ice Hammer:
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Heracross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde: 234-281 (36.7 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
But we don't see too much Fur Coat Zygarde-c around right now because a lot of them run Water Absorb.

Just an FIY, even Fur Coat Chansey can take a single hit and retaliate back with Metal Burst or Destiny Bond or something, though y ou can't switch it in:
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 588-697 (83.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Rumors]

...even though it has adaptability stab, doesn't ohko Neutral walls like Groudon or Kyogre
...
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Mega Heracross First Impression vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 110-131 (27.2 - 32.4%) -- 57.6% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Just gonna nitpick, but Primal Don is in no way neutrally resistant to First Impression.


But yeah... tommytt22 , the set's not great. Heracross is probably too slow to run a speed nature as well. 252 HP, or a Life Orb number, which I'm not sure what the HP EV for Heracross is, instead of speed and Adamant is likely better. And you definitely need an answer to Flyority. I used to run a set for Trick Room with stuff like Hammer Arm. I can try to see if I can dig it up if you want.

 

[tommytt22]

Just gonna nitpick, but Primal Don is in no way neutrally resistant to First Impression.


But yeah... tommytt22 , the set's not great. Heracross is probably too slow to run a speed nature as well. 252 HP, or a Life Orb number, which I'm not sure what the HP EV for Heracross is, instead of speed and Adamant is likely better. And you definitely need an answer to Flyority. I used to run a set for Trick Room with stuff like Hammer Arm. I can try to see if I can dig it up if you want.

SuperSkylake Yeah I can see it's not ideal. Every time the metagame changes i try to see if he's viable but it hasn't really worked out because of that terrible speed tier above all else. Thanks for the offer on the hammer arm set Rumors but I'm ok, I'll just replace him with mewtwo or rayquaza or something like that.

 

[highlighter]

Dont think Ive seen anyone use this yet.

Zekrom @ Draco Plate
Ability: Galvanize
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 236 SpA / 20 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Frustration
- Extreme Speed
- Judgment
- Shell Smash

After a shell smash, Zekrom will outspeed and kill most major threats.

The speed EVs allow Zekrom to outspeed Pheromosa after a shell smash. Rest of the EVs are dumped into Att and SpA.

Send in any ground type if Zekrom gets impostered.

 

[willdbeast]

>Queenly Majesty
I personally use this with Primal Groudon just to fuck with people. It can run the coverage moves to fuck with every -ate FakeSpeed, its bulky as hell, and gets a wicked Heat Crash on several mons.

Dinosaur King (Groudon-Primal)@Leftovers
Ability: Queenly Majesty
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Rock Slide
-Thousand Arrows
-Thousand Waves
-Heat Crash

I mostly use Waves to trap -ate FakeSpeed users who don't know what they're facing yet. Arguably Spirit Shackle might be better for this purpose, but without any real boosting means, this set enjoys the STAB far more, and has Rock Slide for fliers anyhow.

Rock slide ?-? Are you really concerned about pp or have you not heard of Diamond Storm? (If not it's 100 power 95 accuracy physical rock type)

 

[ARandomNoob]

No I just don't use Diancie enough to remember shit like that exists, thanks for the tip. But speaking of exclusive moves...

Toxic thread recently jumped out at me in STABmons, mostly for how it's an idea I had just a few months ago for the very line GF ended up giving it to (I'm watching you GF). It's old string shot plus standard poison lumped into one move. If you had to use it in a team, how would you do so?

 

[Esprite]

I've used it on a Merciless Megagar. Hex & Venoshock are nightmares when on a poisoned pokemon.

 

[SuperSkylake]

Simple Shell Smash with White Herb on a Dark type is pretty wild. Being able to get +4 speed allows even m-tar to outspeed the unboosted metagame, and hit everything with a 260-bp power trip. The only sollution is to sac something and destiny bond against it. Prankster haze is only a temporary relief, since it can just smash again, and the opponent can switch out or even baton pass at any time to gain momentum on you. Simple-smash-pass seems to be a really potent strategy against any playstyle right now. Even unaware mons can't take a 260-bp power trip unless they have a ton of bulk and 2x or 4x dark resist. Oh and the prankster nerf prevents things like prankster spore and topsy from working too. Impostor can't switch in, but it can at least cut the sweep short once you have sacced something, but you can easily protect yourself with a Spectral Thief unaware mon to get those boosts right back. For defensive teams, your options are mostly limited to the bulkiest physically defensive t-tar with spectral thief, prankster haze or impostor, and for the former you'll definitely have to sac something to get your tar in because it can't take two power trips. For offense, I run a focus sash deoxys-s with destiny bond. It's still a shaky check though because it's easy for opponents to break the sash. You also have the choice of innards out, which is something I just thought of, and which I might try to incorporate into my own team. It's definitely worth a shot.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Simple Shell Smash with White Herb on a Dark type is pretty wild. Being able to get +4 speed allows even m-tar to outspeed the unboosted metagame, and hit everything with a 260-bp power trip. The only sollution is to sac something and destiny bond against it. Prankster haze is only a temporary relief, since it can just smash again, and the opponent can switch out or even baton pass at any time to gain momentum on you. Simple-smash-pass seems to be a really potent strategy against any playstyle right now. Even unaware mons can't take a 260-bp power trip unless they have a ton of bulk and 2x or 4x dark resist. Oh and the prankster nerf prevents things like prankster spore and topsy from working too. Impostor can't switch in, but it can at least cut the sweep short once you have sacced something, but you can easily protect yourself with a Spectral Thief unaware mon to get those boosts right back. For defensive teams, your options are mostly limited to the bulkiest physically defensive t-tar with spectral thief, prankster haze or impostor, and for the former you'll definitely have to sac something to get your tar in because it can't take two power trips. For offense, I run a focus sash deoxys-s with destiny bond. It's still a shaky check though because it's easy for opponents to break the sash. You also have the choice of innards out, which is something I just thought of, and which I might try to incorporate into my own team. It's definitely worth a shot.

Yes, Tyranitar is pretty hard to wall. Defensive teams do have better options, though;
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Audino-Mega: 225-266 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - even 2 shell smashes don't let ttar bypass it, and it can then easily haze, topsy, or spectral theif the boosts. Bulky fighting types like buzzwole can also wall, forcing out TTar with their stab while (with unaware/Fur coat) easily living a +4/4/4 power trip. Needless to say, it is quite dangerous, but it's not something as of now that Stall cannot answer, so don't rely on it exclusively to defeat bulky play styles.

 

[motherlove]

Yes, Tyranitar is pretty hard to wall. Defensive teams do have better options, though;
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Audino-Mega: 225-266 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - even 2 shell smashes don't let ttar bypass it, and it can then easily haze, topsy, or spectral theif the boosts. Bulky fighting types like buzzwole can also wall, forcing out TTar with their stab while (with unaware/Fur coat) easily living a +4/4/4 power trip. Needless to say, it is quite dangerous, but it's not something as of now that Stall cannot answer, so don't rely on it exclusively to defeat bulky play styles.

Worth noting that simple Ttar generally packs sunsteel strike.
Anyway a noteworthy pokemon that I thought I should bring up is Mega Gyarados who has seen quite a bit of use as an unaware user seeing as it resists both sunsteel strike and moongeist beam.

248 / 232 / 28+ Bulk allows you to not get 2HKO by Owing from LO Modest Mega Ray (which is actually pretty rare) the rest being tossed in Physical bulk. This is what Ttar does to this after a Simple Shell Smash:
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232 Def Unaware Gyarados-Mega: 210-247 (53.4 - 62.8%)
+4 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 232 Def Gyarados-Mega: 161-190 (40.9 - 48.3%)

Worth noting that I'm not bringing up a niche mon here like PhisDef Unaware Audino (that's just bad QT), Mega Gyara is actually a decently common Unaware wall.

Guess who else walls it?
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Big-Zygarde: 349-412 (54.8 - 64.7%)
+4 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Big-Zygarde: 269-317 (42.2 - 49.8%)

As for offensive teams, Simple Tar isn't immune to priority. And is weak to Triage Drain Punch (Mega Ray, Mega Heracross, MMX), Triage Leech Life (Mega Heracross, Mega Scizor), First Impression (Mega Scizor), Water Shuriken (Ash-Gren, Primal Kyogre), Bullet Punch (Kartana), Mach Punch (MMX), Aqua Jet (Water bub Mega Gyara) and Pixilate FakeSpeed (Mega Diancie, Xerneas). (I'd add Vacuum Wave but nobody uses that)

Prankster Haze also means you're getting rid of its White Herb which will make it considerably harder for Ttar to set up.

 

[SuperSkylake]

motherlove removing the white herb is kind of superfluous if you're reduced to passively hazing the boosts. It doesn't matter how hard you can hit something if it can just hit you first. Of course that's why there's priority out there, but pairing t-tar with a Psychic terrain setter like MMY makes it far deadlier imho. It's good to know you can sort of wall it with Gyarados and Unaware zygarde-C. Though even with smash, sunsteel strike and pt, you have a fourth moveslot, which I would probably use to pack Spore to shut down any recovery those walls could have.

 

[Rumors]

King's Shield should, theoretically, shut the thing down, especially on something that resists Power Trip. A hit onto KS would reset T-Tar's attack boost then and there, forcing it to reboost or switch. Just make sure the KSer can take an unboosted attack and do something nastier in response.

 

[willdbeast]

King's Shield should, theoretically, shut the thing down, especially on something that resists Power Trip. A hit onto KS would reset T-Tar's attack boost then and there, forcing it to reboost or switch. Just make sure the KSer can take an unboosted attack and do something nastier in response.

Preferably king shield on something with safety goggles (or PH etc) just in case they're spamming spore for breaking checks.

 

[SuperSkylake]

That's the problem with smash sweepers, they have a lot of freedom to run something on their fourth moveslot. You have spore; bp to pass the boosts to someone else; a variety of special coverage moves like psystrike; moongeist beam; secret sword, or even stored power if you want to double on powertrip; or taunt to stop destiny bond/haze. Add to that dark d=types are immune to prankster, and that in itself stops a lot of stuff from working like spore or topsy. Like it's really hard to deal with because those checks can easily be weakened or lured and, with the right team support, you can almost certainly do that and get in that dark type to finish up the game with a sweep.
Edit: I'll also add that passing your shell smash boosts to a normal type like Regigigas or Arceus prevents spectral thief from stealing them. Spectral thief is a really popular way to check these sweepers. If I build a dark-smash team I'm definitely putting bp on it just for that purpose, since you really don't need any other damage moves besides pt and sunsteel.

 

[motherlove]

Yeah, any decent Unaware mon should be running safety goggles. And that was a fact before simple smash became a thing, even in gen6 if you wanted a shot at walling ray you needed safety goggles.

If you're running baton pass you're just asking for an imposter countersweep. Even then if you switched in your haze user it makes no difference.

Also most people have caught on "normal types to ignore spectral thief" thing at this point and most people run either heart swap or haze. Ignoring Spectral thief is really only relevant if you want to dodge regenvest users.

Removing the white herb is not superfluous, assuming they want to boost again that lives you one turn to hit them in their -2 defence before clicking prankster haze again. That also means that it won't be able to set up against other things during the course of the battle.

A lot of what you say is obviously pure theorymoning. The thing is there are answers, you're just choosing to ignore them.

 

[Kyogree]

Has anyone mention Water Bubble yet? Does it outclass Adaptability or Liquid Voice-Boomburst for Water-types?

I mean, I love my Origin Pulses to be consistently be 210 Power and Oceanic Operetta being 390 power. Water Shuriken becomes 30BP per hit, Aqua Jet becomes the same power as Waterfall, and Liquidation becomes 170 BP.

Using Wishi-Washi probably isn't the best 'mon to use with it but P-Orge, Greninja-A, (Maybe) Palkia, *Mega Gyarados, *Mega Swampert, *Mega Sharpedo or even a Bulky Attacker with Tapu Fini. Try it with Water Spout (Maybe)

Add some rain support, or Tail Glow/Calm Mind will destroy everything that doesn't resist. This is my current Water Bubble set with P-Orge.

Kyogre-Primal @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Oceanic Operetta (New BP 195--> 390)
- Origin Pulse (New BP 110-->210)
- Energy Ball/Ice Beam
- Tail Glow/Water Spout-Full Health (New BP 150-->300)

Of course this set is walled by Shedinja, and I think Giratina, and Opposing SpD Poison Heal Kyogre without Energy Ball. This still isn't the best set however, Water Shuriken could be used for Priority although it is based off luck and 2 hits will most likely not finish of threats like P-Don.

*Physical Water Attackers can't get burned because of Water Bubble

 

[chartung17]

I'm surprised this guy hasn't gotten more attention, given that he OHKO's a large portion of the meta:

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Icicle Spear
- V-create
- Catastropika

Here are some calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 1730-2040 (717.8 - 846.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 755-895 (213.8 - 253.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 405-480 (100.2 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Catastropika vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 460-543 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Catastropika vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 478-564 (118.3 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Solgaleo: 499-588 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 520-625 (90.7 - 109%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO

And it is conveniently Imposterproofed by Primal Groudon:
252 Atk Pheromosa Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 100-120 (24.7 - 29.7%) -- approx. 100% chance to 4HKO

Its only real issues, as far as I can tell, are priority (which isn't as common as it used to be due to Dazzling/Queenly Majesty/Psychic Surge) and Choice Scarf users (212+ Spe Choice Scarf Primal Kyogre outruns it).

I also considered Mega Heracross with the same moveset, since Adamant Focus Sash Mega Heracross deals more damage than Jolly Life Orb Pheromosa, but overall I think Pheromosa's speed is more important, since the power difference really only matters against Zygarde:

252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (97.7 - 115.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

[CatKawaii]

Don't wanna sound salty lol but will Imposter ever be banned? It's honestly the most stupid and cancerous ability in the game. I work hard to make a como that not only synergizes well but also counters each other. It's not fair when I capitalize on a opponents mistake to set up just to be impostered.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Don't wanna sound salty lol but will Imposter ever be banned? It's honestly the most stupid and cancerous ability in the game. I work hard to make a como that not only synergizes well but also counters each other. It's not fair when I capitalize on a opponents mistake to set up just to be impostered.

Imposter checks so much of the meta, including crazy strong setup sweepers. You can also imposterproof with Mega Gengar with Spooky Plate Judgment and Secret Sword or other means of doing so.

 

[Em]

Can we talk about this?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-494378489
It's not even that my team was bad (it's actually an amazing team) or that I played that awful, I think Comatose Deoxys-S is just straight up broken. This is reminiscent of Gen V Prankster Riolu. The only ways to beat this are PP stall, Magic Bounce, Triage, -ate's, or Prankster Defog. Besides that it's literally going to destroy your team.

 

[MAMP]

Can we talk about this?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-494378489
It's not even that my team was bad (it's actually an amazing team) or that I played that awful, I think Comatose Deoxys-S is just straight up broken. This is reminiscent of Gen V Prankster Riolu. The only ways to beat this are PP stall, Magic Bounce, Triage, -ate's, or Prankster Defog. Besides that it's literally going to destroy your team.

I don't know if this is broken (there is a ton of counterplay, and most good teams will have a way to beat this without trying to specifically prepare for it), and in all fairness you did just kinda sit there at the start and let tina get up all its layers, but I do think that this is kinda uncompetitive and not really healthy for the meta. I wouldn't mind a ban, but there are much more pressing things to deal with in the tier atm.

In future, post discussion on bans and stuff in the dedicated suspects and bans thread here