BH Balanced Hackmons

[pikaU]

One problem... Topsy isnt limited to mega audino.

I think you are just listing moves, but if you really want to get into it, maybe list common sets that completely threaten the set, then list common sets that Dialga can force out.

Afterwards, compare how many from each side and determine if your point is on to something or just listing a move that stops it.

Maybe a full post that can prove whether a strategy is too common on unbreakable users that Dialga can never bypass with its team support (like Hazards).

 

[pikaU]

consider that most moldy/sunsteel users (, , , etc) just completely blow you apart regardless of stamina

this is irrelevant no viable normalize user cares about your def boosts from stamina

Here is how much Lucario-Mega takes on Body Press from a switch-in on Lucario-Mega’s Mixed Attacker set

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Lucario-Mega: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No boosts, typically you send in Dialga on something that doesn’t threaten it, like vs a wall using Knock Off only for that wall to be pushed out (like Ting-Lu), and then from that hit it gets a Defense boost. If they use U-Turn to Pivot as you use Body Press then you have 2 boosts.

Those 2 boosts double the damage Body Press would deal.

If they come in on Strength Sap, Dialga-Origin survives the next turn Close Combat:

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gets a defense boost off of Stamina, and now Lucario-Mega is only getting stalled out while Dialga can heal while boosting.
——
Your point on Normalize users is wrong.

What better counter to Body Press than a Ghost-type immune to the move completely even before using the Entrainment?

Especially if you already accumulated some boosts?

Stamina also reduces damage you take from mixed Ghost-Arceus on its Fighting move of choice, so Ghosts in general, as well as users of Secret Sword, Psystrike, etc.

A Pokémon like Flutter-Mane would view it as a free-switch in, only to be hit with Revelation Dance on the turn they use Entrainment.

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Flutter Mane: 254-300 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Flutter-Mane is the most relevant Entrainment user in the game, as Dragapult doesn’t pose as much of a threat.

Still:

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dragapult: 186-220 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[Notgamingreally]

Here is how much Lucario-Mega takes on Body Press from a switch-in on Lucario-Mega’s Mixed Attacker set

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Lucario-Mega: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No boosts, typically you send in Dialga on something that doesn’t threaten it, like vs a wall using Knock Off only for that wall to be pushed out (like Ting-Lu), and then from that hit it gets a Defense boost. If they use U-Turn to Pivot as you use Body Press then you have 2 boosts.

Those 2 boosts double the damage Body Press would deal.

If they come in on Strength Sap, Dialga-Origin survives the next turn Close Combat:

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gets a defense boost off of Stamina, and now Lucario-Mega is only getting stalled out while Dialga can heal while boosting.
——
Your point on Normalize users is wrong.

What better counter to Body Press than a Ghost-type immune to the move completely even before using the Entrainment?

Especially if you already accumulated some boosts?

Stamina also reduces damage you take from mixed Ghost-Arceus on its Fighting move of choice, so Ghosts in general, as well as users of Secret Sword, Psystrike, etc.

A Pokémon like Flutter-Mane would view it as a free-switch in, only to be hit with Revelation Dance on the turn they use Entrainment.

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Flutter Mane: 254-300 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Flutter-Mane is the most relevant Entrainment user in the game, as Dragapult doesn’t pose as much of a threat.

Still:

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dragapult: 186-220 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Consider that they would usually expect body press from seeing stamina, and therefore use some slow pivot if they’re trying to get Mega Lucario onto the field, even in ur ting Lu example it’s a mon that’s substantially slower then dialga and therefore takes the damage for lucario or sapping.

If ur dialga O many sets have revelation dance and therefore the normalize user doesn’t want to switch in in the first place particularly flutter mane because of the weakness
Also it’s better to go with a fur coat wall since you reduce the damage immediately from triple arrows and secret sword/psystrike, the latter is also reduced by Ice Scales, opening a little more options
Even if ur using some other mon with stamina the point was that all normalize users are special and don’t care about entrainment boosts.

 

[cityscapes]

in an attempt to be constructive: i feel like body press just...doesn't do that much for the set? like even if we run renowned Worst Move In Game secret sword, we start being able to run fc/scales and actually switch in on offensive mons instead of walls. the main draws of body press as far as i can tell are 1) do more to scales users 2) take heart to +6/+6 vs imposter and simply not hit them so they don't have boosted body press.

for point 1, even with body press this dialga just isn't great into defensive play in general. the thing with stamina is that the opponent can always elect to not hit you if need be, so you can be stuck at +1 def with nothing but a fairly weak body press and a revdance that can be fairly easily walled out or contested (a ton of shit resists steel). the zama set with shackle encore made more sense to me because that one had ideas to remove the opponent's choice in the matter. i think trapping encore is generally underrated in current meta, i haven't used that shit in ages but i remember it feeling so unfair on gen 7 z-waves zygc.

for point 2, imposter can sap you a ton to minimize your attack (negating your sap against them in the future), then switch out and come back in. this might require a sacrifice if they don't have something that can eat a boosted hit, but when imposter comes back in it can threaten to countersweep your entire team. this line will typically not be good for you unless you have an imposter-proofer in the back, which begs the question of why not run secret sword and just imposter-proof that.

in general i don't think this is a bad way to play, i recently made a scales torch/revdance/leech seed/bunker leftovers magearna which this set reminded me of, and i think some of the replies are too set in a traditional way of thinking about bh. that said, i believe the set has room for improvement

 

[rightclicker]

Here is how much Lucario-Mega takes on Body Press from a switch-in on Lucario-Mega’s Mixed Attacker set

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Lucario-Mega: 174-206 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

calcs vs luke

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 460-541 (113.8 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assuming luke gets in on teleport which it often does)
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (assuming it gets in on u-turn or hard switch after knock because wow my opponent will always hit me twice after revealing stamina :clueless:)

not to mention if you get knocked then you lose cloak and now you die to salt cure + any sapblocking that isnt audino/blissey

plus, this happens:

imposter mu

vs. non evio imposter
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 116-138 (16.4 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 172-204 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
vs. evio imposter
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 78-92 (11 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO
their calcs
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO

it's easy to see that you are royally fucked up by imposter.

I think you are just listing moves, but if you really want to get into it, maybe list common sets that completely threaten the set, then list common sets that Dialga can force out.

the moldy/sunsteel users i mentioned prior, also just now, (scales topsy) (topsy/salt) (haze)
now, lets analyze the things that you potentially force out

all of these guys never actually stay in thanks to revdance being a very common move on dialga

assuming it ruinations you on the switch you never actually OHKO it from full which if it's regen then it can start exploiting you to pivot into wallbreakers

this is fair but also dialga-o is also already a good switch in with actually good sets (regenvest/mg). here however you aren't actually threatening it with knock/salt so it still just flips for free on you.

...that's it. that's all you can actually force out

Stamina also reduces damage you take from mixed Ghost-Arceus on its Fighting move of choice, so Ghosts in general, as well as users of Secret Sword, Psystrike, etc.

calcs vs ghosts

252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO amplified further with torch

+2 252+ SpA Spooky Plate Lunala Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 312-367 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lunala Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

ghosts still blow it up with their STAB, it doesn't matter.

on norm: as i mentioned before revdance is a very common move on dialga-o and thus none of them will actually stay in

i like innovation and all but you can't just act like the set is impenetrable game breaking new tech or something, at least acknowledge the flaws and work towards improving it

 

[Fish Gaming]

Let's bring the discussion back to an actual topic.
Now that HPL is nearing its end, I think we can resume discussion on potential tiering action regarding bans/unbans.
Here's what I think should be unbanned/banned, now with my HPL slightly more professional opinion.

Pokemon:
Shedinja:
I've advocated for its' unban before, and I will advocate for its' unban again.

There are multiple ways to take down Shedinja in current meta that you either can easily slot in or already do slot onto your teams. Although it is technically one method, forcing it to decide what item to run.
1: Hazards (HDB)
Shedinja cannot switch in if Hazards are in play, unless it decides to run Heavy Duty Boots. This will likely be its' most common option.
You can always click Knock Off and get rid of any item in play, making it die to all of the aformentioned methods.

2: Mortal Spin
Mortal is listed seperately from #3 because Mortal Spin mandates the usage of Covert Cloak, if the Shedinja user does not wish to die to poisoning.

3: Burn (via wisp or bulwark shenaniganery)
I do not believe that Shedinja can beat wisp. Bulwark it can at least beat with just... not clicking a contact move.

4: Sunsteel / Moongeist
When at least four of the best attackers in the meta ( , , , (not always)) run them, its not that out of the question. Countering this mandates ability shield.

With it having to pick between items to not die instantly, I believe that Shedinja will be healthy for the meta if unleashed.



Moves:
Baton Pass:
A pre DLC ban, This one I am a bit iffy about, as we all know how cringe it is, but there's two key factors in its favor: Current meta innovations as well as the return of Topsy-Turvy. Dark types like Arceus-Dark being more prominent means that Stored Power sweepers are a tad bit easier to deal with. Forcing mons onto Power Trip makes them a bit more easier to tank, with the prominence of fur coat dark resists in the meta.

Imprison:
Similar to Baton Pass in that I feel that the main reasons for it being banned have vanished with the DLCs. We don't just have Haze to remove stat boosts anymore, we have Topsy Turvy as well, hell even Heart Swap could work.

 

[pikaU]

Consider that they would usually expect body press from seeing stamina, and therefore use some slow pivot if they’re trying to get Mega Lucario onto the field, even in ur ting Lu example it’s a mon that’s substantially slower then dialga and therefore takes the damage for lucario or sapping.

If ur dialga O many sets have revelation dance and therefore the normalize user doesn’t want to switch in in the first place particularly flutter mane because of the weakness
Also it’s better to go with a fur coat wall since you reduce the damage immediately from triple arrows and secret sword/psystrike, the latter is also reduced by Ice Scales, opening a little more options
Even if ur using some other mon with stamina the point was that all normalize users are special and don’t care about entrainment boosts.

I completely agree they would expect it, but in that regard it keeps offensive threats out if they know it now is more durable, and works as a reverse Taunt, so they don't want to attack to trigger it. Many Special Attackers have low Defense, so Body Press also keeps them out.

The point was to switch into Knock Off, since it can take hits, but lets go with your scenario: So Ting Lu takes the Body Press, triggers Dialga with U-turn (RegenVest) on its pivot, and allows it to survive Lucario-Mega, based on the +1 Defense, which makes it able to Stall with Strength Sap on the Close Combat hit if it tries for the 1HKO. Now its fully healed, and at +2 which is enough to 1HKO Lucario-Mega, and they have a damaged Ting-Lu, while Lucario-Mega, their counter, is forced out.

You made progress, are at full HP, +2 Def, and the foe has 2 injured Pokemon.
____
Isn't that good? Revelation Dance keeps out Entrainment, which means the biggest counter to Body Press is prevented, making it cover its Body Press' wall.

I wasn't saying Fur Coat is worse than Stamina, I was saying to have a mixed offense that can also take hits, I think Ice Scales also takes hits better than Assault Vest due to the bigger immediate boost, but that doesn't mean it never does a better job. Obviously Stamina's only selling point is Body Press.

Entrainment users do care about the boosts, because they normally would be used to wall them, as Ghost-types. If Body Press gets to benefit off +Def, doesn't that give Ghosts a reason to switch in? To block Fighting-type moves?

 

[Notgamingreally]

Shedinja

Not a fan of this one, I think it could be handleable but it seems slightly overbearing. All the methods listed have their own workarounds (good sunsteel resists, good removal, good status tankers, good knock absorbers) which are all fairly viable in one form or another in the current metagame and will only get bigger with shed as a partner. There’s also just the inconsistency of like 3 viable items on it (protective pads, a shield, boots) which I don’t like.

Imprison:
Similar to Baton Pass in that I feel that the main reasons for it being banned have vanished with the DLCs. We don't just have Haze to remove stat boosts anymore, we have Topsy Turvy as well, hell even Heart Swap could work.

Heart swap is kind’ve gimmicky, Topsy Turvy has become the more primary setup control and that leaves us with the mediocre Haze as an imprison answer, I don’t know if it’s handleable and even if it is I don’t think it should come back to the game.

Baton Pass:
A pre DLC ban, This one I am a bit iffy about, as we all know how cringe it is, but there's two key factors in its favor: Current meta innovations as well as the return of Topsy-Turvy. Dark types like Arceus-Dark being more prominent means that Stored Power sweepers are a tad bit easier to deal with. Forcing mons onto Power Trip makes them a bit more easier to tank, with the prominence of fur coat dark resists in the meta.

I actually think this one could be fair, threats of setup control are more present with Baton Pass because topsy isn’t canceled, there’s also no more substitute to pass anymore. The threat of death is also present bc ur baton passers are prolly passive. Overall sounds more like a gimmick then a centralizing strategy.

 

[pikaU]

calcs vs luke

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 460-541 (113.8 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (assuming luke gets in on teleport which it often does)
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (assuming it gets in on u-turn or hard switch after knock because wow my opponent will always hit me twice after revealing stamina :clueless:)

not to mention if you get knocked then you lose cloak and now you die to salt cure + any sapblocking that isnt audino/blissey

plus, this happens:

imposter mu

vs. non evio imposter
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 116-138 (16.4 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 172-204 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
vs. evio imposter
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 78-92 (11 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO
their calcs
252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO

it's easy to see that you are royally fucked up by imposter.


the moldy/sunsteel users i mentioned prior, also just now, (scales topsy) (topsy/salt) (haze)
now, lets analyze the things that you potentially force out

all of these guys never actually stay in thanks to revdance being a very common move on dialga

assuming it ruinations you on the switch you never actually OHKO it from full which if it's regen then it can start exploiting you to pivot into wallbreakers

this is fair but also dialga-o is also already a good switch in with actually good sets (regenvest/mg). here however you aren't actually threatening it with knock/salt so it still just flips for free on you.

...that's it. that's all you can actually force out

calcs vs ghosts

252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO amplified further with torch

+2 252+ SpA Spooky Plate Lunala Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 312-367 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lunala Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga-Origin: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

ghosts still blow it up with their STAB, it doesn't matter.

on norm: as i mentioned before revdance is a very common move on dialga-o and thus none of them will actually stay in

i like innovation and all but you can't just act like the set is impenetrable game breaking new tech or something, at least acknowledge the flaws and work towards improving it

#1. If you are safely pivoting in off U-turn, that triggers Stamina. +1 Def negates Choice Band's +1 Atk, letting it 100% survive as it Strength Saps that turn, getting to +2 Defense...

I notice many people's posts focus on a team effort, the wall that takes Strength Sap, then pivots to Lucario-Mega, then a Knock Off user to remove Cloak to add Salt Cure.

Yes, that would be true if you had your full team, and Dialga was my only 1 left, but we are ignoring anything that would support Dialga...

#2. Isn't it nice for a Pokemon to have Revelation Dance to force out Pokemon that normally wall Body Press? You act like them being forced out is not a selling point...

Blissey is 2HKO'd even without a +1.

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-388 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

If it uses Ruination, it just boosts Stamina, and causes Dialga to KO it with certainty...

+1 252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 492-580 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

#3. Why are all of your calculations not accounting for Dialga-Origin's Take Heart?

That removes status and boosts the SpD+SpA, while those Torch and Hex do not boost SpD, and lets me set up on them for free...

Hex does nothing if I use Take Heart.

Did you not know what the move is for?

+2 SpA on Lunala, while I have +2 SpA and +2 SpD on Dialga-O means I win in the end...

 

[pikaU]

in an attempt to be constructive: i feel like body press just...doesn't do that much for the set? like even if we run renowned Worst Move In Game secret sword, we start being able to run fc/scales and actually switch in on offensive mons instead of walls. the main draws of body press as far as i can tell are 1) do more to scales users 2) take heart to +6/+6 vs imposter and simply not hit them so they don't have boosted body press.

for point 1, even with body press this dialga just isn't great into defensive play in general. the thing with stamina is that the opponent can always elect to not hit you if need be, so you can be stuck at +1 def with nothing but a fairly weak body press and a revdance that can be fairly easily walled out or contested (a ton of shit resists steel). the zama set with shackle encore made more sense to me because that one had ideas to remove the opponent's choice in the matter. i think trapping encore is generally underrated in current meta, i haven't used that shit in ages but i remember it feeling so unfair on gen 7 z-waves zygc.

for point 2, imposter can sap you a ton to minimize your attack (negating your sap against them in the future), then switch out and come back in. this might require a sacrifice if they don't have something that can eat a boosted hit, but when imposter comes back in it can threaten to countersweep your entire team. this line will typically not be good for you unless you have an imposter-proofer in the back, which begs the question of why not run secret sword and just imposter-proof that.

in general i don't think this is a bad way to play, i recently made a scales torch/revdance/leech seed/bunker leftovers magearna which this set reminded me of, and i think some of the replies are too set in a traditional way of thinking about bh. that said, i believe the set has room for improvement

I agree, it takes a bit more effort without Encore, and a trap move, but I was just trying to help that guy come up with a Mixed Attacker that wasn't going to fall in 1 hit.

I appreciate your constructive criticism of both my set, and their posts. I agree they are a bit too set in their traditional expectations.

I think its easy to criticize a set but I doubt they will try to use it and see the merits.

I mean, forcing out Ghosts due to Revelation Dance, and Take Heart boosting and removing status, coming in on common moves like Knock Off and pushing out walls, and then using Body Press to body Assault Vesters like Ting Lu... I felt it had some use... but maybe just me then.

 

[rightclicker]

#1. If you are safely pivoting in off U-turn, that triggers Stamina. +1 Def negates Choice Band's +1 Atk, letting it 100% survive as it Strength Saps that turn, getting to +2 Defense...

max atk steela uturn does 4.9 minimum so that calc is actually more like this

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (at 95% HP)
idk about you but 50% to kill is probably not 100% chance to live

Yes, that would be true if you had your full team, and Dialga was my only 1 left, but we are ignoring anything that would support Dialga...

dude i genuinely hate this argument so fucking much

like yeah surely my magic guard cosmic power stored power sweeper is awesome because i have my entire team to remove all of its checks surely its actually good (no it's not)

you definitely will need team support for everything but something winning after extensive team support removing all of its potential checks doesn't mean that thing is automatically good

Isn't it nice for a Pokemon to have Revelation Dance to force out Pokemon that normally wall Body Press? You act like them being forced out is not a selling point...

look
name 3 things that this set forces out that regenvest or mg/furscales running secret sword (ass btw) isn't forcing out

Blissey is 2HKO'd even without a +1.

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-388 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

If it uses Ruination, it just boosts Stamina, and causes Dialga to KO it with certainty...

+1 252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 492-580 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if it's regen then it can start exploiting you to pivot into wallbreakers

also you're at 50% gg

Why are all of your calculations not accounting for Dialga-Origin's Take Heart?

because the moment you click take heart imposter 6-0s your team as it becomes unkillable specially and gets free boosts and the only way you can damage it is through body press which gives it even more defense which makes it even more unkillable

also, arguments like these are better done on OMcord to not flood the thread

 

[pikaU]

max atk steela uturn does 4.9 minimum so that calc is actually more like this

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (at 95% HP)
idk about you but 50% to kill is probably not 100% chance to live

dude i genuinely hate this argument so fucking much

like yeah surely my magic guard cosmic power stored power sweeper is awesome because i have my entire team to remove all of its checks surely its actually good (no it's not)

you definitely will need team support for everything but something winning after extensive team support removing all of its potential checks doesn't mean that thing is automatically good


look
name 3 things that this set forces out that regenvest or mg/furscales running secret sword (ass btw) isn't forcing out


also you're at 50% gg


because the moment you click take heart imposter 6-0s your team as it becomes unkillable specially and gets free boosts and the only way you can damage it is through body press which gives it even more defense which makes it even more unkillable

also, arguments like these are better done on OMcord to not flood the thread

So you wrote a bunch of replies, including this most recent post, then direct me to Discord?

Maybe tell that everyone, including yourself who replied to me, especially when you replied like 4 times.

When I logged in I saw numerous replies, I can’t be the only one told to take the argument there.

Hide

So you only highlight the Lucario-Mega Choicd Band, and not the Life Orb?

It guaranteed survives the Life Orb variant.

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga-Origin: 307-361 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, wouldn’t I switch in Dialga on an Attack from Celesteela (especially on RegenVesters), so coming in on Knock Off, then it uses U-Turn when it sees it cannot Knock Off the Adamant Crystal. So +2.

I don’t lead with Dialga, I send it in so that I can get a boost upon switch-in.

If Celesteela doesn’t want to boost it to +2, then it would switch out without using U-Turn, and therefore Lucario-Mega wouldn’t come in for free, I.e. based on Team Preview I can expect a sweeper coming in to try and force me out, so I would go for the safe move and use Strength Sap.
———-
You are the one who brought up team support, from Salt Cure + Knock Off, to U-Turn - when did I bring up Team Support, beyond a Stealth Rock?

I never said Dialga can win against an entire team by itself, that being said, Lucario-Mega getting 2HKO’d by unboosted Body Press means it cannot just switch into Dialga more than 1x. With U-Turn, Volt Switch and Flip Turn triggering Stamina, that alone can force a would-be pivot to just go for a regular switch.

Since you want 3 Pokémon:

Dialga forces out:

RegenVesters bc they don’t even want to pivot with U-Turn for fear of boosting Stamina, since their entire move pool is full of Attacks.

Pokemon like Ting-Lu also take super effective damage from Body Press, while going second, so if they use a move like Stone Axe on Dialga’s switch-in, it only makes them want to immediately switch out.

It hits Ice Scales Pokémon harder than Secret Sword, and there are a bunch of Pokemon that fall under that, like Arceus forms.

Plus, the mechanics mean even Pokemon using Parting Shot (instead of U-Turn, etc.) that normally would impact Secret Sword are not going to impact the damage from Body Press.

If you are happy that Dialga is at 50% after getting Ruination, didn’t it put Blissey in the same position?

252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-388 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

Since it outspeeds Blissey, and Ruination triggers +1 Def, Blissey is forced out at half health, so it won’t be able to heal.

+1 252+ Def Dialga-Origin Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 492-580 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Blissey stayed in, it would be KO’d, so it won’t be able to just use Teleport to safely pivot.

So all your Blissey did was get put around 50%, and get forced out, which gives Dialga a free turn to use Strength Sap on what comes in, if it predicts a switch, or a now boosted Body Press.

That gives it something over Secret Sword as well, since I don’t need to spend a turn using Take Heart for an equivalent boost.

So there are 3: RegenVesters, Ice Scales, Blissey… the same Pokemon you tried to use as a counterpoint.
———-
So now you have Celesteela, Lucario-Mega, Imposter, and a Ghost and I only have Dialga?

Lunala taking 1/3 HP average, isn’t really putting it in a good position, especially as Strength Sap provides it diminishing heals per usage against Dialga-O…

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lunala: 148-175 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 66.7% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 136-162 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO

And for your final argument, here is mine response:
If using Take Heart forces out your Ghost, then Lunala hasn’t countered or checked Dialga, Dialga is the one forcing it out so Ghost was checked/countered, right?

Imposter coming in means they have to switch, and I could switch the same turn, negating any momentum with an Improof.

Just like Imposter is standard, Improofing with an ally is as well. So why would Imposter 6-0 my entire team?

Bottom line: if Ghost and Dialga are the final Pokemon per team, Dialga wins.

 

[Fish Gaming]

first teamdump :(

team made for vs ivar

sflo gren was for a lunala i was expecting ivar to bring because of the lack of info on him
regenvest dia-o was improof
fc maud for stopping threats against rv dia-o
mscept coverage is weird because of lure
groundceus and mzam are just there



team made for vs SI

wouldve won if it werent for bad mus
im not gonna bother writing the rest of these in depth


team made for vs fraise
i like this one because mscizor actually kinda worked



team made for vs qt 1
sucks


team i would've used for vs pannu
it was trash dont use


team i did use for vs pannu
mu fish ho is mu fish ho


team i used for vs qt 2 but lost to mu fishy ho
ironic

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

While I don’t usually do teamdumps since the majority of my teams are hot garbage that isn’t really worth using for most players, I decided to do one for hackpl so everyone can have the satisfaction of ignoring and throwing tomatoes at awful teambuilding. So without further ado here are the teams that I built for hackpl. (I’m only including builds I made exclusively by me as this post would be too long and be even lower quality than it already is).

Generation 9:

https://pokepast.es/1143e96c49b35d6b

This is a stall team I had lying around in my builder prior to the tour built around sevag-regen Mega Steelix. Sevag Regen I found tends to work really well on stall because it fills the void of Imposter resistant status sponge that is really difficult to take advantage of with choiced wallbreakers opened by the Poison Heal Ban. The team suffers a lot vs Magic Guard as it has to rely on pp-stall to win, but if it loads into a Non-magic Guard team it pretty much instantly wins as Steelix and hazards make quick work of regen-vests and recovery pp.

https://pokepast.es/03f72d36fe925649 :

The team above is a team based around spreading Paralysis to make it easier to break through team’s with Pikachu and Mega- Lucario. I gave this team to fish to fight Yolk with since Yolk likes using Shackle set-up and Pikachu and paralysis make that playstyle really difficult. Unfortunately, I am braindead so I didn't consider the Flutter Mane match-up and Fish lost to Flutter Mane.

https://pokepast.es/9ab646b6bac36aa2 :

This team is an offensive Volt-Turn team I gave to fish to fight ROFNA with. The build was deliberately outfitted with fast breakers like Mega-Alakazam and Koriadon as well as extreme-speed Iron Valiant to make it difficult for ROFNA to get his rain team off the ground if he chose to bring it. Prankster Ho-Oh was also used so it would be difficult for ROFNA to cheese anything. Unlike with Yolk this actually matched up fairly well and only lost because of a couple of endgame blunders made by fish gaming.

https://pokepast.es/4a7760514b5b612c / https://pokepast.es/f899bcff294ec0f3 :

I decided to reveal the Roar of time team that I peaked ladder with and instantly regretted it as Teamo really wanted to bring it in spite of my warnings that Night’s Edge had already been tricked on ladder by this exact team. Since I couldn’t convince Teamo to build anything else I simply slightly modified the team to make the trap slightly less obvious to Night’s Edge and prayed that he would have the memory of a goldfish. As expected, that didn’t go well.


https://pokepast.es/e447a879d11a2c31 :

I constructed this improved version of Akira’s Magic Guard Stall team as a candidate to fight QT, though fish wasn’t having it with playing full stall so I just ended up modding one of his teams to be just barely playable into QT. As I anticipated, the other team didn’t quite cut it.

https://pokepast.es/d333561e3bfaa857 :

This team I made for Big Tony to match-up fish since if you don’t have Prankster vs the team more often than not you’ll instantly lose. While the version I gave him lacked a bit a polish, and had a notable error not having a minus defense Nature on Lunala, it still only lost to an unlucky missed Focus Blast and an Unlucky role on Imposter (Even without - defense the Power Trip had a 50 OHKO chance on Eviolite Imposter). Fish would bring the more polished version and shred Pannu with the Clangorous Soul HO.


Generation 8:

https://pokepast.es/4fca7aa66d79becc:

Tea Guzzler presented an idea around Nasty Plot Xerneas that I found intriguing, but his version of the team was absolutely abhorrent as it had no pivoting to bring stuff in and instantly lost to Specterier so I scrapped his version and built a new version from the ground-up. Unfortunately the wallnut I have for a brain screwed up my mental calcs and failed to realize the Zygarde needed to + Special Nature to answer Specterier so Tea ended up losing to Specterier anyway.

Generation 7:

https://pokepast.es/61746189d62d3045:

I absolutely could’ve curbstomped Jasprose with the Hyper Offense or Stall team I had created in advance for the tournament if I needed to. However, since my team had already won the week it was far more valuable to drop a red herring for anaconja than to win the week so I loaded an old balance I made with Sodass back when I was even more awful at the game. As expected it lost, but it the team did its job of misleading anaconja into overprepparing for fat and Fur Coat Chansey and under preparing for hyper offense so I was fine with said loss.

https://pokepast.es/b2c883df3d662cd8:

The expectation I created for the type of team I would bring payed off here as anaconja went into the game thinking they would be fighting a fat balance or Stall and instead was meet with Hyper Offense. The game went fairly smoothly as anaconja was Ill prepared for the onslaught of Tail Glow and Belly Drum.


https://pokepast.es/4474630b7e7d0774:

I finally decided to break out the stall team I had built in week one of the tour. Though the game ended up not mattering for the outcome of the tour, this would probably be the best time to use it given that my next opponents would be hyper prepared to deal with stall.


https://pokepast.es/a779b0a686666c44

I anticipated E4 Flint would bring counter-teams to the HO and stall team’s I had brough previously in the tour, so I was expecting a lot of Unaware, Taunt and Mold Breaker Hazards. I also knew that Flash Fire was unlikely as I rarely bring Fire Coverage so I built a Sun team featuring Tinted Lense Blaziken for power and Chlorophyll Necrozma for speed and mixed wallbreaking. As predicted the team successfully countered the most likely countermeasures to my playstyle perfectly.

https://pokepast.es/3af19f8afad548b4:

Vs City I had not idea what to bring so I settled on Pressure Stall because City doesn’t use Spectral Thief very frequently and her teams tend to be quite slow. Unfortunately, I loaded into Baton Pass and after a 400 turn game managed to somehow get every predict wrong due to my inability to play out of a paper bag and ended up handing the game over to City.

https://pokepast.es/d974f0558a3d32a3:

Since I hadn’t used Shedinja the entire tour and Sevag had been very reliant on Jobocca to deal with Shedinja I figured Sevag would be Ill prepared to deal with a Shedinja team. And so I constructed a semi-stall centered around tough claws Diancie since I was expecting Primordial Sea to deal with weather this time around. As I predicted Sevag brought a team that struggled into Diancie, Lucky Punch Imposter, and Shedinja, but as per usual I managed to find a way to throw the game and instead of utilizing Encore on Aegislash as I should’ve to stop Stealth Rocks I instead make the brilliant play of letting Rocks go up so Sevag freely get past my Gengar check and sacking my only out on an obvious Judgment.

And that concludes another scuffed season of braindead teambuilding. My apologies for wasting your time with more hot air if you were expecting actually competent or remotely intelligent teambuilding.

 

[rightclicker]

apparently there isn't an OM bazaar anymore so here's my hpl teamdump. as with onyx this only concerns teams that were exclusively built by me and not co-creations. i don't think any of these teams are actually that good but the ideas are definitely there so feel free to modify them however you like. also none of these were actually used :(

(click on name for reference if there are any, click on mons for paste)

dude check it out i just made some synonym rolls

specs dmaw etern seemed interesting but the problems became clear when i tested this: its etern thats choice locked and therefore prediction reliant. etern zacc structures are also fake asf man

criminalcore

the the the um the gfire
i was feeling bored and one of the servers (not bh related) i was in wondered if gfire was viable. i looked at his stats and i was like "wait this guy is like reshiram defensively if he was easier to improof"
structure otherwise is pretty straightforward, psea steela improofs gfire and baits your opp into thinking its some sorta dumb vc mortal uturn shit on chicken (and send in their own psea steela in horror) and paraspam wraps it up

the rosemary island

webs offense, inspired by akira vs yolk. kyurem-w and chicken under webs shreds shit, tina makes sure your opp cant set webs themselves and neutralize your webs, and spinblocking prevents your opp from removing webs. i also made like 2 more versions of this (here and here) which are unnicknamed but kicks ass just as well as this.

Underachiever

fakest balance you've ever seen: nuke enjoyer edition

then we just deadgamed so it didnt even matter

letter to the black world

i wasted a good naming scheme on this one

sd koraidon is massively interesting but i turned my brain off for the rest of the team and i ended up with this
i might remake this team later (cant let such a good naming scheme go to waste) but rn i'm not that motivated

that's all the teams i remember building with hpl usage in mind. have fun

 

[GhastlyPixie]

I only built two teams for hpl and neither of them really proved to be successful but I’ll show them anyway.



https://pokepast.es/0b55b11937cd1b10
This was something I had in my builder than I handed binary as they said they wanted to be prepped for offense and in my experience this team didn’t really struggle into offense that much. But ultimately we ended up changing it as Tony was worried about the apparent ground weakness and I honestly did not like the modified version.

https://pokepast.es/4b33edcd2b378e59

This was the team after modifications. We went with prank ting lu as stored power/power trip sets were seeing usage and binary was concerned with that matchup. We changed the arc to ground (the very viable take heart groundceus) which ultimately did nothing but Binary also admitted they struggled to pilot the team, resulting in a loss.


https://pokepast.es/cb27601ff806ad68

I built this for tack at around 10 p.m ish iirc and I was tired. The team obviously has a lot of glaring issues like no healing on etern and of course featuring the super viable take heart groundceus. It was agreed to add strength sap to etern and Onyx swapped take heart with torch but Tack ran this version of the team which was just not good, ultimately resulting in a loss.

https://pokepast.es/6aeec30dd4fba5de

Here was the modified version, still ultimately lost into the Blissy + ghost arc combo but I built this team to try to cteam Wheaty who had to be subbed out and the sub brought stall.


Overall not my most inspired builds but it was a fun tour nonetheless.

 

[q0rew89h]

https://pokepast.es/60cdcdf6d581ef86

wanted to make a team with my favorites

 

[ANinjaDude]

https://pokepast.es/60cdcdf6d581ef86

wanted to make a team with my favorites

I'm not sure about Scarf Chansey, I think it loses harder to most imp proofing, and especially into any sort of trapping imp proofing like tcage arc formes. I really don't think you want to use Scarf Block Chansey, because then you pp stall yourself before the imp does, so maybe swapping to a different move would be better.
Also unsure about your imp-proofing, and I'd consider using Judgement or Revelation Dance over Moonblast on Arc-Fairy, but Moonblast is fine too.

 

[Wheaty]

Mandatory post HPL team dump time!

The big chicken + slightly smaller chicken
https://pokepast.es/d0a6a54e8ab11640
This team I built in tandem with Akira 153 and I personally really like it, didn’t win the game due to god awful matchup, very sad, but have seen success with it in testing and stuff.

Big chicken 3.0
https://pokepast.es/cfd597557f630f4e
I have a big chimken addiction and this team suffices it quite well. Gameplan is pivot around, get in chimken, proceed to win, easy enough.

Damn that’s a big ass whale
https://pokepast.es/c7dd03c8bbd306d6
The infamous 4a mglo ogre team that is loved so dearly by rightclicker. I’ve had way too much success with this team on ladder and in tours to not post it even though it didn’t get its chance to shine in hpl. (meant to bring it one week but forgot to transfer the team to my phone, very sad) Team is very solid and may make a rmt on it eventually idk im just tryna hit my word count atp.

The biggest spooner
https://pokepast.es/3683d329dd3ed634
Mega zam click button go BRRRRR. Gameplan is click pivot, click mzam, claim kill, repeat. I love this team as I’ve always had a fondness for bor zammerino and this team shows it off quite well, much recomend.

Would like to thank the people who drafted me for allowing me to have sm fun playing in hpl even if it had a rough end for me having to sub out for finals. Thank you to my teammates who helped me build and gl with the rest of finals!

 

[Chessking345]

Hi all, with HPL concluding and OMWC on the horizon we are running a quick survey to gauge opinions on the current meta and see if there any extremely standout elements that we should look at before OMWC commences.
Due to the limited timeframe, the survey will end at 11:59 PM GMT-4, Thursday October 10th. Remember to share your thoughts by then!

Access the Survey here.​

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Hello everyone. I have returned to share some meta breaking sets once again.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wave Crash
- Knock Off
- Steel Beam
- High Jump Kick / Dragon Energy / Chloroblast

Everyone remember SF LO Gren? (I made that btw) The menace that 2hkos Mega Audino and Arceus regardless of FC or Scales thanks to its insane mixed damage? Well I'm here to share a 3rd (potentially and definitely) amazing Gren set: MG LO Gren. With Wave Crash and Steel Beam, this is another Gren set that can break through Audino. Wave Crash is just an extremely solid STAB that you can spam alongside Knock Off. With MG, you're also incredibly hard to chip. Finally, HJK is there to hit Imposter and Dialga but there are other coverage options you can run like Dragon Energy for Etern and other dragons or Chloroblast to hit Kyogre. I'm sure everyone will welcome our 3rd Gren overlord with welcome arms.

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Steel Beam
- Dragon Energy

Are you a fan of running pivot moves on your nukes? Well I have great news for you. Introducing MG LO Pheromosa, the fastest mon in the tier that actually hits kind of hard. U-turn is great since you outspeed a bunch of offensive mon and can get free momentum. MG also let's you switch in and don't care about hazards. HJK is your strongest STAB. Steel Beam hits Audino and Fairy Arceus while Dragon Energy hits Eternatus. Most people will never see it coming and you'd be surprised at how much it dies even though it's not STAB.

Sample team: https://pokepast.es/35ea73a8f7be0517

Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Twin Beam
- Tachyon Cutter
- Surging Strikes

This is the 3rd mixed wallbreaker I will share. Now I know what you're thinking. Why would you run this set over standard SF LO Necrozma? To that I'd say this is a sidegrade to SF Coz. At the price of LO recoil, this mon does noticeable more damage.

Multipliers:
SF + LO = 1.3 x 1.3 = x1.7
Technician + LO = 1.5 x 1.3 = x1.95

The other difference is the move choices. Firstly you have access to a very strong dragon move on Dragon Darts. I'll just show you the calcs and let it do the talking:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Order Up vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 187-220 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 214-253 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 268-320 (60.3 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 357-421 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can see just how strong it is. Adamant Banded Garchomp does ~35% more damage but your coz is way faster and isn't choice locked.

Not only do you get a very strong dragon move, your other moves are also very strong. Once again I'll just show you calcs.

Noxious Torque vs Tachyon Cutter
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Noxious Torque vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 155-183 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 180-214 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- approx. 3HKO


Luster Purge vs Twin Beam
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Luster Purge vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 222-263 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Bolt Strike vs Surging Strikes:
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 201-238 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus on a critical hit: 198-237 (44.5 - 53.3%) -- approx. 34.8% chance to 2HKO

Basically, Technician Necrozma is a stronger SF Necrozma. Although it's coverage options and Psychic move deals similar damage, it's Dragon move is significantly stronger and it is also able to hit Fairies much harder than SF Necrozma. However there is a massive drawback because every move has recoil, meaning that its a lot easier to chip. Nevertheless I think the power difference is worth it in some teams.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Beat Up
- Tachyon Cutter / Knock Off
- Dragon Darts / Flip Turn

Now that everyone has recovered from the 3rd Gren set, I'm here to show you a 4th. Do you want a sidegrade to Sniper Gren? Introdncing: Technician Gren. That's right, this frog is probably the most versatile mon in the tier right now. Everyone already know Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow are very good moves on Sniper Gren. Technician Gren actually does very similar damage with its own Surging Strikes but Beat Up is considerably weaker than Wicked Blow. So, why would you run this over Sniper Gren? The answerbis because you hit FC Fairies harder and can OHKO dragons.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Greninja-Ash Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 436-516 (90 - 106.6%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Greninja-Ash Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 420-496 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Technician Greninja-Ash Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

Finally, let's be honest here. Flower Trick is a garbage move that only hits Imposter. I said it. Meanwhile, Technician Gren has much better coverage that's actually relevant. Heck, you can even run Tech-boosted Flip Turn if you want.

Basically unless your team really needs a strong Wicked Blow, I think Technician Gren is a viable sidegrade. It's Surging Strikes is exactly the same. If you need to hit Dragons and Fairies harder (2 very common types btw) then this set actually does more damage.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere

If you thought I wasn't done with Gren sets then I have some amazing news for you. Say hello to Mega Launcher Gren. This is by far the strongest special Gren set you'll find. You can think of this set to be like the special version of Sniper Gren.

252 Atk Choice Band Sniper Greninja-Ash Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 324-381 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 318-375 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 186-219 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Audino-Mega: 139-164 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As you can see this mon is super strong. I hope you enjoy frogs because we're mere puppets dancing within Gren's world.

 

[Fish Gaming]

Hello everyone. I have returned to share some meta breaking sets once again.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wave Crash
- Knock Off
- Steel Beam
- High Jump Kick / Dragon Energy / Chloroblast

Everyone remember SF LO Gren? (I made that btw) The menace that 2hkos Mega Audino and Arceus regardless of FC or Scales thanks to its insane mixed damage? Well I'm here to share a 3rd (potentially and definitely) amazing Gren set: MG LO Gren. With Wave Crash and Steel Beam, this is another Gren set that can break through Audino. Wave Crash is just an extremely solid STAB that you can spam alongside Knock Off. With MG, you're also incredibly hard to chip. Finally, HJK is there to hit Imposter and Dialga but there are other coverage options you can run like Dragon Energy for Etern and other dragons or Chloroblast to hit Kyogre. I'm sure everyone will welcome our 3rd Gren overlord with welcome arms.

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Steel Beam
- Dragon Energy

Are you a fan of running pivot moves on your nukes? Well I have great news for you. Introducing MG LO Pheromosa, the fastest mon in the tier that actually hits kind of hard. U-turn is great since you outspeed a bunch of offensive mon and can get free momentum. MG also let's you switch in and don't care about hazards. HJK is your strongest STAB. Steel Beam hits Audino and Fairy Arceus while Dragon Energy hits Eternatus. Most people will never see it coming and you'd be surprised at how much it dies even though it's not STAB.

Sample team: https://pokepast.es/35ea73a8f7be0517

Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Twin Beam
- Tachyon Cutter
- Surging Strikes

This is the 3rd mixed wallbreaker I will share. Now I know what you're thinking. Why would you run this set over standard SF LO Necrozma? To that I'd say this is a sidegrade to SF Coz. At the price of LO recoil, this mon does noticeable more damage.

Multipliers:
SF + LO = 1.3 x 1.3 = x1.7
Technician + LO = 1.5 x 1.3 = x1.95

The other difference is the move choices. Firstly you have access to a very strong dragon move on Dragon Darts. I'll just show you the calcs and let it do the talking:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Order Up vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 187-220 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 214-253 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 268-320 (60.3 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 357-421 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can see just how strong it is. Adamant Banded Garchomp does ~35% more damage but your coz is way faster and isn't choice locked.

Not only do you get a very strong dragon move, your other moves are also very strong. Once again I'll just show you calcs.

Noxious Torque vs Tachyon Cutter
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Noxious Torque vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 155-183 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 180-214 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- approx. 3HKO


Luster Purge vs Twin Beam
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Luster Purge vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 222-263 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Bolt Strike vs Surging Strikes:
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Necrozma-Ultra Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 201-238 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Necrozma-Ultra Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus on a critical hit: 198-237 (44.5 - 53.3%) -- approx. 34.8% chance to 2HKO

Basically, Technician Necrozma is a stronger SF Necrozma. Although it's coverage options and Psychic move deals similar damage, it's Dragon move is significantly stronger and it is also able to hit Fairies much harder than SF Necrozma. However there is a massive drawback because every move has recoil, meaning that its a lot easier to chip. Nevertheless I think the power difference is worth it in some teams.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Beat Up
- Tachyon Cutter / Knock Off
- Dragon Darts / Flip Turn

Now that everyone has recovered from the 3rd Gren set, I'm here to show you a 4th. Do you want a sidegrade to Sniper Gren? Introdncing: Technician Gren. That's right, this frog is probably the most versatile mon in the tier right now. Everyone already know Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow are very good moves on Sniper Gren. Technician Gren actually does very similar damage with its own Surging Strikes but Beat Up is considerably weaker than Wicked Blow. So, why would you run this over Sniper Gren? The answerbis because you hit FC Fairies harder and can OHKO dragons.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Greninja-Ash Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 436-516 (90 - 106.6%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Greninja-Ash Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 420-496 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Technician Greninja-Ash Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

Finally, let's be honest here. Flower Trick is a garbage move that only hits Imposter. I said it. Meanwhile, Technician Gren has much better coverage that's actually relevant. Heck, you can even run Tech-boosted Flip Turn if you want.

Basically unless your team really needs a strong Wicked Blow, I think Technician Gren is a viable sidegrade. It's Surging Strikes is exactly the same. If you need to hit Dragons and Fairies harder (2 very common types btw) then this set actually does more damage.

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere

If you thought I wasn't done with Gren sets then I have some amazing news for you. Say hello to Mega Launcher Gren. This is by far the strongest special Gren set you'll find. You can think of this set to be like the special version of Sniper Gren.

252 Atk Choice Band Sniper Greninja-Ash Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fairy on a critical hit: 324-381 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 318-375 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 186-219 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As you can see this mon is super strong. I hope you enjoy frogs because we're living in Gren's world.

Actually, I believe I made MGLO Phermosa. If you look back to my OMPL teamdump, one of the teams I made had it.

https://pokepast.es/e0645428eb626dfe

Thicc'nt (Pheromosa) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Stone Axe
- Strength Sap
- U-turn

 

[Chessking345]

Survey results! Thank you to the 29 respondents, of which 18 are/were participants of HPL.

Q1: How much are you enjoying the current meta?

Average - 7.00 | HPL Average - 6.94 | Previous Average - 6.45
A fair bit higher than last time, and also without significant low outliers. The HPL score also is basically identical. There seems to be an overall divisive opinion in certain surveyed elements which could lead to overall middling enjoyment. Looking forward in the survey, teambuilder rigidity also seems to still be an issue overall. Cheese/Matchup/RNG elements overall while aren't too prevalent have some presence which could be impacting. Lastly, with consecutive tours from Open to OMPL to SSNL to HPL in the exact same meta tiering wise (though with some notable meta advancements) has caused some burnout/fatigue among some players.

Q2: How competitive do you think the meta is?

Average - 7.38 | HPL Average - 7.67 | Previous Average - 6.55
Also a fair bit higher last time, with the HPL average being a fair bit higher on top of that. The fairly high score from HPL respondents is good to see suggesting that despite any issues the meta might be facing it is still quite competitive in the tournament setting despite potential cheese/matchup/rng elements present. The lower general score could suggest that in settings like ladder the meta feels less competitive, which is pretty believable.

Q3: How flexible do you think building is?

Average - 6.10 | HPL Average - 6.39 | Previous Average - 5.55
The lowest of the 3 scores with also the widest distribution, though the score is still a fair bit higher than last time, and HPL average being yet higher. There also seems to be some divisiveness, with over half the respondents ranking 7+, suggesting that it can depend on the players, with some players finding that they are able to innovate while others feel constrained. The yet again higher HPL average suggests that building teams aimed in a PL tournament setting where reliability is less of an importance can free up some building constraints as opposed to building a strong consistent ladder team.

Q4: What do you think about Take Heart?

Take Heart has been appearing time to time on people's lists as something that has a relatively large strain on teambuilding. Mainly, Take Heart demands defensive answers that are rather passive such as Salt Cure and Topsy/Haze, as well as a very limited pool of naturally good Sap blockers. On the other hand, Take Heart's relatively high splashability have helped keep status conditions like Para and Poison from common moves Nuzzle and Mortal Spin. In additional, despite Take Heart's usage on a variety of viable mons, the actual sets are rather inflexible, almost mandating usage of Thunder Cage and Strength Sap to prevent Imposter from capitalizing, limiting its flexibility and ability to contribute to other aspects of the game, most notably the hazard game. The numbers suggest that some players find it to be somewhat overbearing in terms of its restrictiveness but a solid majority are ok with it as is. We will continue monitoring this move as further meta developments occur.

Q5: What do you think about Ash-Greninja?

By far the most controversial offensive threat, Ash-Greninja differentiates itself from the other offensive threats through its high mixed potential, speed, and quite solid dual STABs. Its Sniper set has been one of the primary warpers of the physically defensive meta, heavily impacting the viability of Fur Coats like Ghostceus. Sheer Force is a set that has seen more recent use, and has an entirely different set of checks. A sizeable number of people find at least some problem with it, though it is still a minority. Perhaps the largest limiter of Ash-Greninja in the current meta is the prevalence of hazards, as it is a mon that particularly suffers from it due to its tendency to want to enter the field many times to break down its answers. Its speed tier is also awkward, where despite outspeeding Eternatus it does not want to face a full health one directly, and there are several faster threats. Similar to Take Heart, we will continue monitoring this as potential new sets emerge and meta develops.

Q6: What do you think about Salt Cure?

Salt Cure is overall viewed to be a very healthy move.

Q7: What do you think about hazard stacking?

A very recent topic since mid-OMPL. Hazard stacking has emerged to be one of the more prevalent archetypes and is the most significant development in recent months, with the archetype capitalizing on the power of Stone Axe and Spikes both in enabling progress and limiting prominent wallbreakers. With that we've also seen a significant amount of "superman" structures, teams with exclusively hazard resilient mons. Hazard stacking's success definitely has to do with the unreliable options of removal, Rapid Spin is rather limiting in terms of users for the difficult to bypass Ghostceus, Tidy Up is a very poor option due to PP and also clearing both sides, Defog remains Defog though in terms of pure removal trumps Tidy Up, Court Change is utterly ineffective against superman stacking structures, and Mortal Spin, while being the most viable form of removal, has to deal with the numerous different Steel-types and their unique resistances and potential immunity abilities.
Amusingly, this has more people finding overbearing than any of the above topics. With that being said, the success of the aforementioned superman archetype, despite proving the effectiveness of hazard stacking, also greatly limits hazard stacking's potency. Throughout HPL we've also seen that traditional Balance as well as select Offense teams succeed, showing that the meta is not entirely dominated by hazard stack and superman. Action can also be difficult regarding this topic, as there isn't really a single standout element, and more of a combination of Stone Axe's ease of use, Spikes' potency, and the weak overall removal, but we will continue to monitor this.

Q8: What do you think about omniboosting?

The only topic that received a majority for overbearing, omniboosting sets have always existed with No Retreat sets, but recent advancements in HPL with sets like Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray as well as Jaw Lock No Retreat sets popping up. These sets are generally viewed as uncompetitive, cheese, and unhealthy for the meta as these sets are very polarizing in effectiveness: should the opponent have a hard counter such as an effective Prankster or something that can sponge the boosted hits, the set might as well be worthless due to its one-use nature, but if not then it can win on the spot. Certain sets have also led to unhealthy dependency on Imposter speed-ties to decide the game, and it is not hard to understand why a majority of players find issue with such strategies that reduce the skill from the game.

Q8A: Which element of omniboost strategies do you think is most egregious?

A follow-up question to respondents that found omniboosting strategies to be overbearing. The two main considerations are the omniboosting moves and Power Trip + Stored Power. We will discuss these to decide an action path for tackling omniboosting.

Q9: Any further comments?

• Mortal Spin - 1
• Good as Gold - 1
• Paralysis - 1
• Superman - 1
• Stone Axe - 1
• Victory Dance - 1
• Garchomp-Mega - 1
• Free Shedinja - 2
• Free Baton Pass - 1
• Free Regigigas/Slaking - 1
• Free Orichalcum Pulse - 1
• Free Quiver Dance - 1
• Free Lumina Crash - 1

No significant support for any of these, and several of these elements are very very unlikely to be actioned. For certain more impactful elements that could be considered, I personally would not be opposed to see unofficial tours be hosted to explore a meta with an element banned/unbanned to properly gain an idea of the impacts.
That concludes the survey results! Stay tuned as we'll have some follow-up tiering action on omniboosting at some point before World Cup commences, as well as a VR update hopefully by the start of next week. Thanks for reading!

 

[Chessking345]

Clangorous Soul and No Retreat are quickbanned from BH!​

Tea Guzzler​	Akira 153​	Chessking345​	TTTech​	Quantum Tesseract​
ClangSoul + NR​	ClangSoul + NR​	Stored Power Trip​	ClangSoul + NR​	Stored Power Trip​

It was deemed that Clangorous Soul and No Retreat are the core enablers and problematic aspects of the unhealthy Omniboosting strategies outlined by the previous post. If it turns out that Stored Power and Power Trip related strategies are still unhealthy in the coming weeks we could revisit this.
Tagging dhelmise to inform about pull request, thanks!

VR and other resources will be updated in the upcoming days. We are also looking to update/add to our samples, if you have/are planning to team dump please highlight any outstanding ones you would like to officially submit (it is completely ok if you think they are all worthy!).

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Sample Teams Submission

1. SF Gren and Frens: https://pokepast.es/465681ec348eaf92

Team and variants went 2-1 in HPL. RoFnA won twice with it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2196082184-pkqqj119lmsu3ppjdqdnoa8pi8xl04zpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9balancedhackmons-793312?p2

I think this is a very solid team if you want to abuse SF Greninja.


2. Super Shuckle & Brothers Ultraman: https://pokepast.es/231bddb4105f4af6

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9balancedhackmons-791678

Objectively the best BH team right now. I can't imagine this team ever losing.