BH Balanced Hackmons

[TheZackman99]

I think imposter is more banworthy than the scholarly consensus gives it credit for.

1. revealing all your opponent's moves on switching in is very strong and can't be counteracted in any way
2. comfortably switching in and forcing a switch on 95% of offensive sets is crazy. if anything that wasn't imposter chansey could do that it would be banned. self-proof sets exist, but for one thing the need to be self-proof is limiting, and for another thing almost all of them stop being self-proof if they get hit by knock off, which is common and useful already
3. automatically creating speed ties sucks. I would want imposter gone for this alone even if it didn't have any extra bulk
4. infinite PP apparently isn't a reason to ban stuff given that leppa berry + recycle is legal, but I just don't care for it.

I'm aware of the concept of improofing, and I'm really good at it. But in-game, when imposter switches in, your options are (1) stay in, which only works if you're self-proof, or (2) switch, which is the most passive move in the game. From what I gather, the consensus is that these things are all true and imposter is busted, but it's OK because the meta would be out of control without it. I don't buy it. When was the last time hackmons existed without imposter? How do you know people wouldn't just adapt and be fine?

I feel like I have a lot of cachet on this website from posting a couple of terrible sets and not knowing how primordial sea works. I say ban imposter.

Honestly I agree with a lot of this take to an extent. My personal belief is that bliss and chan make imposter so much stronger than it needs to be. there are plenty of 200 base hp mons that are fine as imp mons, and banning the blobs would effectively be a nerf to imposter without banning it. especially considering eviolite imp can live almost any hit in the game, this would make imposter a bit riskier to just blindly switch in on, as well as making offensive improofing more appealing from a teambuilding aspect. I also hate wish pass blobs rn so there's that XD

 

[ANinjaDude]

Imposter is fine bro. There's no need to ban it, and there are plenty of offensive improofs that can be used if you actually look for them. As for the other "issues" raised, they're all hogwash. Scouting moves on switch-in isn't that strong unless you are using a surprise set to try and take out a specific mon, and if you're doing that, then you can still have counterplay by positioning your mon so that Imp doesn't want to switch in. Forcing offensive mons out is only really an issue if you are utterly reliant on using mons that cannot make meaningful progress without having been in for multiple turns, most breakers can come in and fuck shit up, and by the time Imp comes in, they've done meaningful damage already. As for the speed tie "issue," this is only an issue if you are staying in and aren't selfproofed and you also dont have para-spreading on your other mons. Infinite PP is kinda a whatever issue. There is no reason to ban Imposter.

 

[TheZackman99]

Imposter is fine bro. There's no need to ban it, and there are plenty of offensive improofs that can be used if you actually look for them. As for the other "issues" raised, they're all hogwash. Scouting moves on switch-in isn't that strong unless you are using a surprise set to try and take out a specific mon, and if you're doing that, then you can still have counterplay by positioning your mon so that Imp doesn't want to switch in. Forcing offensive mons out is only really an issue if you are utterly reliant on using mons that cannot make meaningful progress without having been in for multiple turns, most breakers can come in and fuck shit up, and by the time Imp comes in, they've done meaningful damage already. As for the speed tie "issue," this is only an issue if you are staying in and aren't selfproofed and you also dont have para-spreading on your other mons. Infinite PP is kinda a whatever issue. There is no reason to ban Imposter.

I never said we should ban imposter. read my suggestion

Plus all of your points, and the initial point raised in the post I replied to, are that imposter, WHILE BALANCED, may not be making BH a more "fun" meta. I personally disdain the current state of the meta, because even at high level the most prevalent teams are hazard stacking multiple magic guard schlock that rely on taking 100+ turns to win through attrition and flowcharting. I have been a mid to high level BH player for almost a decade and gen 9 has been my least favorite generation for the format by a landslide.

 

[TheZackman99]

Hello everyone! The new meta is only a few days away, so we've been through the returning Pokemon and have a preliminary banlist! This is only what we have so far, so it's subject to change, but this wouldn't be major and we'll update you if anything does change.

Pokemon:
Calyrex-Shadow - No surprises here. Still egregiously broken with no good long-term answers.
Mega Rayquaza - 180/180/115 with a good amount of different viable abilities that have completely different counters, from Aerilate to Tough Claws to Speed Boost.
Primal Groudon - Even if we banned V-create, this would likely still end up overbearing. The typing and base stats are just too good.
Slaking - We're pretty confident that the Guts set is still going to be broken the same as before. There isn't much new that can really wall it, and it still outruns everything at +1.
Regigigas - See the above. The bulk differences aren't enough to cause any notable shifts in what it does.
Shedinja - No moves with built-in Mold Breaker (Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, Photon Geyser) remove any chance this had of being freed.

Moves:
All current banned moves

Abilities:
All current banned abilities + Gorilla Tactics

What isn't currently starting on the pre-banlist, but could start there or be banned within the first few days:
Mega Mewtwo Y
Mega Mewtwo X
Deoxys-A
Mega Gengar
Dire Claw

Note that Zacian-C is only off the banlist as it can't be accessed in the banworthy way anymore (with any ability, without Rusted Sword), which makes it simpler for newer players.

Now that we have sunsteel and other mold breaker moves back, is there any chance to look at bringing back shedninja?

 

[ANinjaDude]

I never said we should ban imposter. read my suggestion

Plus all of your points, and the initial point raised in the post I replied to, are that imposter, WHILE BALANCED, may not be making BH a more "fun" meta. I personally disdain the current state of the meta, because even at high level the most prevalent teams are hazard stacking multiple magic guard schlock that rely on taking 100+ turns to win through attrition and flowcharting. I have been a mid to high level BH player for almost a decade and gen 9 has been my least favorite generation for the format by a landslide.

The things I mentioned in my post also apply to banning bliss/chans. There's no need to ban them, they aren't a problem, and they aren't making the meta "less fun." I can attest to multiple top level players building a lot of really unusual teams, and superman hazstack is imo not very good atm. The meta is not in a super enjoyable spot atm, but that is due to PDon/MDia, depending on who you ask, not on Imposter. As for Wishpass, that is actually super weak to imposter, so it's pretty easy to exploit. As for banning Bliss/Chans to nerf Imposter, there's no reason to do it, and banning Chansey alone does nothing because the best items are Cloak/Boots atm.

 

[TheZackman99]

The things I mentioned in my post also apply to banning bliss/chans. There's no need to ban them, they aren't a problem, and they aren't making the meta "less fun." I can attest to multiple top level players building a lot of really unusual teams, and superman hazstack is imo not very good atm. The meta is not in a super enjoyable spot atm, but that is due to PDon/MDia, depending on who you ask, not on Imposter. As for Wishpass, that is actually super weak to imposter, so it's pretty easy to exploit. As for banning Bliss/Chans to nerf Imposter, there's no reason to do it, and banning Chansey alone does nothing because the best items are Cloak/Boots atm.

I don't think Pdon and Mdia are really all that problematic, but its more an argument of what "fun" means which isnt really a debate because its subjective, so I'm happy to agree to disagree on what is and isn't "balanced" with regard to fun.

I think it depends on what kind of team you are building as well. The fact that you only have 6 mons to have a functional team, while also dealing with edge case mons is what makes the slappability of a blob imposter so valuable, especially because in team preview you don't know if its sap block special tank or imp, which doesn't make blobs bad or broken. My main reason that I love hackmons is because its such an open format that has a high tolerance for unique sets that you can't find anywhere else, but it feels like a lot of the council decisions in gen 9 have been keeping legacy things banned, or being the fun police (as a long time liquid ooze enjoyer, i feel this especially). That isn't to say that most decisions to ban problematic stuff are bad or the meta is ruined, but it feels like there is now a "right" and "wrong" way to like hackmons, which has made the meta both rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock and not at the same time. I've been running a pretty unique team for a few weeks now at just under 1500, and the meta just feels like you cant have OK counterplay to everything without losing on the spot to a few problematic mons, or you have a game plan that doesn't beat every set.

I'm not claiming that I'm The Guy for making tiering decisions or that everyone is wrong, but I personally am kind of tired about how much normalize, imposter, salt cure, covert cloak, etc are treated as cornerstones of the meta and people are (somewhat rightfully) shamed for complaining about them, but other unique stuff that is powerful without just being objectively big stats (neutralizing gas, gen 9 libero/protean, shedninja in current gen, pheal with no sub or broken setup) is treated like it's overwhelmingly strong to the point that its banned. The format was literally just shaken up in huge ways with the freeing of pdon and mdiance, which has felt like a really strong shift in the right direction, even if they eventually get banned again.

My point is that this isn't OU, and especially because we are still FOREVER away from a new gen (which we all know is going to be even more power crept than gen 9) the hackmons community would be better if it was more OK with things being a bit more broken and weird. I'm not advocating that we all stop having fun and go back to v create dominating offense, or unban mega rayquaza. I'm saying "hey why don't we experiment more, its not gonna hurt anything".

 

[ANinjaDude]

I don't think Pdon and Mdia are really all that problematic, but its more an argument of what "fun" means which isnt really a debate because its subjective, so I'm happy to agree to disagree on what is and isn't "balanced" with regard to fun.

I think MDia absolutely needs to go because it's nigh fucking unwallable, and I've seen a few players bring up how much of a pain in the ass defensive PDon(like LeviDon) is to deal with, so I think it's very reasonable to want both MDia and PDon gone.

a lot of the council decisions in gen 9 have been keeping legacy things banned, or being the fun police (as a long time liquid ooze enjoyer, i feel this especially).

This kinda isn't the case though. The "legacy bans" are all things that absolutely should stay locked up, and Liquid Ooze is deeply fucking bullshit when a lot of defensive mons rely on sap. You mentioned the "not knowing if Bliss/Chans is Imp" thing, and Ooze kicks that up to 2000. Not only do you not know if any of their mons are Ooze until you either Imposter them or die to the Ooze, you also don't know if they're being switched in on you or not every time you try to sap. You aren't even safe if your sap mon would normally beat their Ooze mon, because you're one predict from your opponent away from being out a defensive mon. Fuck Ooze, council made the right decision with that, that's not a "fun police" thing, that's a meta health thing.

That isn't to say that most decisions to ban problematic stuff are bad or the meta is ruined, but it feels like there is now a "right" and "wrong" way to like hackmons, which has made the meta both rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock and not at the same time. I've been running a pretty unique team for a few weeks now at just under 1500, and the meta just feels like you cant have OK counterplay to everything without losing on the spot to a few problematic mons, or you have a game plan that doesn't beat every set.

I don't get what you mean by your complaints about "right" and "wrong" way to enjoy hackmons, as unless you're using absolutely filthy degen MU fish stuff, none of the bans really interfere with that? As for the RPS nature, that is kinda how every stage of Gen 9 has been since I started playing, but it's only gotten more pronounced recently, in large part due to the PDon and MDia unbans. Imposter is actually one of the better ways to have a decent MU into a lot of teams, so if you are complaining about the meta feeling too much like you can't check everything, why do you also want to remove one of the best ways to check a lot of things?

I'm not claiming that I'm The Guy for making tiering decisions or that everyone is wrong, but I personally am kind of tired about how much normalize, imposter, salt cure, covert cloak, etc are treated as cornerstones of the meta and people are (somewhat rightfully) shamed for complaining about them, but other unique stuff that is powerful without just being objectively big stats (neutralizing gas, gen 9 libero/protean, shedninja in current gen, pheal with no sub or broken setup) is treated like it's overwhelmingly strong to the point that its banned. The format was literally just shaken up in huge ways with the freeing of pdon and mdiance, which has felt like a really strong shift in the right direction, even if they eventually get banned again.

Imposter is treated as a cornerstone because it's one of the biggest reasons for the tier being playable, and removing it would require half the tier to get banned, at least.
As for Normalize, it's kinda not all that scary or important or banworthy, I'm gonna keep it real with you. It fails into 90-95% of good teams unless you dedicate your entire team to removing the plethora of Normalize checks, and even then, it's just kinda mid. MBounce, Plates, GaG, Arceus, Rev Dance, DDesire+Switching, -Atespeed(Like MDia), etc. all fuck over Norm mons pretty hard, so there really isn't a need to ban Normalize, because it just gets countered by a lot of stuff that's already good and on most teams anyways.
Covert Cloak there's no reason to ban, I have no idea why you're up in arms about Cloak of all things, but it is not banworthy.
Salt Cure and Mortal Spin are both contentious, and they certainly aren't treated as cornerstones of the meta. There's quite a few people that want to see one or both get the boot, and I can see some of their arguments.

As for the banned stuff, that shit absolutely deserves to stay banned. NGas is turbo fucking hell and warps the meta into a near-unrecognizable state, forcing a good 80-90% of pokemon to run Ability Shield or do nothing. NGas being allowed single-handedly almost completely kills RegenVests being viable, FurScales mons are forced to run AShield, and run the risk of just getting Knocked and suddenly being unable to wall anything, MBounce has the same issue, Imposter gets fucking ruined, etc. Do Not Unban NGas.
Protean/Libero deserve their bans because on Choiced sets, it's effectively not been nerfed in the slightest, and on non-choiced sets, it leads to the issue of "well I would use my defensive mon to check them, but I can't because they get a free Band/Specs on coverage that will kill me." Oh, also Monotype mons like Deoxys can hide the fact that they're Protean until they click a non-STAB move and blow you up.
Shedinja is a fucking bastard that would enable insanely degenerate bullshit. You could run incredibly unimproofed shit that just blows up everything, and then just use Shedinja as the improof. You don't even need to use Sunsteel/Moongeist to ignore FurScales, but if you do, you can just use AShield Shedinja, especially with the amount of potential -Ate spin users, hard to block spinners, etc. As for the whole "oh but scure/mspin/etc" issue, scouting can relegate that issue to being a minor footnote, and suddenly you have to either desperately keep all your things that can actually hit Shed alive, or make all 6 of your mons hit Shed.
PHeal is incredibly fucking degenerate because there's still VDance, and there's no Spec Thief or Core Enforcer to keep it in check. PHeal will win against just about everything long-term, and can be slapped on most mons and turn them into a game-ending sweeper. Compound this with the difficulty of beating it with Imposter, and you get a problem.

 

[aerobee]

The main goals for tiering are to 1) increase the complexity of in-game positions to maximize the in-game skill ceiling and 2) maximize building skill ceiling by engineering metagames in which a variety of different styles are viable and different archetypes themselves are diverse at a high level of play. Because matchup/rng-fishing aspects are highly obstructive towards these two aspects, they are often acted on as well (ex. Dire Claw, Moody, to an extent damage amp Abilities and overly powerful offensive Pokemon). I think you realize that fun is a subjective concept, but that is how it is operationalized in practice and for the purposes of accommodating competitive Hackmons these guidelines really are better than any alternatives.

There's a pretty compelling argument that Imposter is, as is, an overall positive for the above goals. From a playing perspective, far fewer attackers are able to OHKO Imposter Eviolite Chansey after setup, so there is strong incentive for teams to use slower modes of progress, like hazards/status spreading/Salt Cure chip/partial trapping/attacking Imposter switch-ins then retreating etc, to weaken opposing Imposter enough that your breaker is less impeded. This is good because it increases in-game positional complexity. From a building perspective, it is true that many potential offensive sets are not worthwhile specifically because of Imposter, but this actually increases builder diversity for two reasons. One, some sets become overall worthwhile due to being more advantageous into Imposter (I'd argue to a greater extent than sets are crowded out in an Imposter-less metagame because of qualities intrinsically strong vs. Imposter – think Plate Judgment, Covert Cloak Salt Cure, Thunder Cage + Strength Sap, Ghost/Dragon supereffective STAB, etc.). Two, there are two ways a metagame with severely weakened Imposter can be tiered. Either the metagame without Imposter is extremely defensive or it is very matchup-based (what are you going to do if the opposing near-perfect-coverage breaker is circumstantially strong into your core?) – almost every type has a strong drawback-less attack on both the physical and special side, making balancing around neutral Fur Coat/Ice Scales walls pretty inevitable at this point. Players then gravitate towards the extremes of stacking enough bulky mons to be mostly safe from coverage spam, or they go all in on offense. Any in-between strategies become reliant on significant playing skill disparities, and are thus relegated to niche or unviable status. Imposter averts this outcome by forcing Imposter-proofing on walls (significantly restricting their movesets, making them vulnerable in non-Imposter scenarios or overall less effective at carrying out the its roles in the team's gameplans) and greatly restricting hyper-offensive strategies (by requiring credible plans vs. Imposter for all attackers). Consequently, Hackmons metagames with Imposter are generally more strategically diverse.

I think the way BH currently plays is unfortunate but it isn't really in the council's power to increase playing skill expression and viable builder variety, at least not by that much. As I explained above good coverage moves being too varied (in addition to 8 PP recovery and universal boosting Abilities like Beads + Sword of Ruin) means the meta is fundamentally locked into being balanced around Fur Coat and Ice Scales, and there just aren't as many balanced constraints for passive gameplay as in previous gens (notably Poison Heal). I talked about problems with the pre-unban meta here and I haven't changed my opinions much, but I do think the unbans did legitimately alleviate some meta problems from that time (ex. faster pacing decreases Mortal Spin's unhealthiness, Primal Groudon being Fire-type somewhat decreases Bulwark's unhealthiness and faster pacing decreases Magic Guard Chansey's prevalence, etc.). However, Groudon's insane type coverage synergies (3 of Ground/Fire/Ice/Electric with the possibility of Dragon/Fairy coverage, of which you cannot possibly cover close to all of) and Diancie's coverage strength precipitate somewhat of a "you either answer them or you don't" matchup roulette. I could be wrong in the long run but given previous generations offensive Pokemon were chiefly limited by relatively worse coverage moves I'm not very optimistic right now.

Unbanning stuff is an interesting idea but there's not much that wouldn't negatively interfere with what I've been talking about. Neutralizing Gas makes RegenVest near-unviable, centralizes the meta around item removal (single strategy, so this is a bad thing), and is honestly kinda crazy with consistent residual damage like Mortal Spin poison or Salt Cure. Libero/Protean acts a lot like a 1.5x damage amp on both sides vs. FurScales cores when on a team built to repeatedly bring the attacker in via slow pivoting (with the punishment for clicking wrong being minimal). Shedinja is arguably balanced (people could reasonably deal with it in the builder without severely nerfing most strategies) but forcing Ghost-types/elaborate 2-Regenerator cores on most teams due to Endeavor is a constraint that reasonably irks most players. I think banning most setup moves in exchange for freeing Poison Heal should be seriously explored, but the loss of non-Poison Heal setup would of course be very major and "the meta is better this way" alone isn't sufficient reason to tier.

tldr I agree that Gen 9 BH is pretty "bad" (worse equilibrium of building variety at a high level + in-game positional complexity) compared to other BH metas but there's not much anyone can do about it

 

[TheZackman99]

Imposter is treated as a cornerstone because it's one of the biggest reasons for the tier being playable, and removing it would require half the tier to get banned, at least.
As for Normalize, it's kinda not all that scary or important or banworthy, I'm gonna keep it real with you. It fails into 90-95% of good teams unless you dedicate your entire team to removing the plethora of Normalize checks, and even then, it's just kinda mid. MBounce, Plates, GaG, Arceus, Rev Dance, DDesire+Switching, -Atespeed(Like MDia), etc. all fuck over Norm mons pretty hard, so there really isn't a need to ban Normalize, because it just gets countered by a lot of stuff that's already good and on most teams anyways.
Covert Cloak there's no reason to ban, I have no idea why you're up in arms about Cloak of all things, but it is not banworthy.
Salt Cure and Mortal Spin are both contentious, and they certainly aren't treated as cornerstones of the meta. There's quite a few people that want to see one or both get the boot, and I can see some of their arguments

I totally agree that all of this has a place in the meta, and none of it should be banned. My point is that everything I brought up and you touched on here is strong and deserves to be accounted for in teambuilding. You've brought up a lot of really good points, and I want to get back to the core of the issue here ( which aerobee really summarized well in the post above):

The GAME sucks to play hackmons in and there's not much that banning or unbanning things can do to fix it.

Due to this, I'll always advocate (as I have been on and off for a few years now) for banning/unbanning weird things to get some semblance of joy from having to figure out a meta that isn't as solved/polarized as gen 9 BH is. So what if we ban imp for a week to see if the tier can exist without it? Maybe we try some stupid convoluted clause that we agree to never do again in a month? I don't think rapid experimentation in banning or unbanning things would leave the tier in a bad place. I just know that if we had matchmaking for gen 7 BH, I would rather sit waiting for a match all day than play gen 9 (but that's just me). I remember a year or so back when regulation H for VGC banned a lot of things and wound up making that meta substantially more fun.

I think that trying to do BALANCED hackmons is secondary to doing balanced HACKMONS if you know what I mean.

 

[TheZackman99]

The main goals for tiering are to 1) increase the complexity of in-game positions to maximize the in-game skill ceiling and 2) maximize building skill ceiling by engineering metagames in which a variety of different styles are viable and different archetypes themselves are diverse at a high level of play. Because matchup/rng-fishing aspects are highly obstructive towards these two aspects, they are often acted on as well (ex. Dire Claw, Moody, to an extent damage amp Abilities and overly powerful offensive Pokemon). I think you realize that fun is a subjective concept, but that is how it is operationalized in practice and for the purposes of accommodating competitive Hackmons these guidelines really are better than any alternatives.

There's a pretty compelling argument that Imposter is, as is, an overall positive for the above goals. From a playing perspective, far fewer attackers are able to OHKO Imposter Eviolite Chansey after setup, so there is strong incentive for teams to use slower modes of progress, like hazards/status spreading/Salt Cure chip/partial trapping/attacking Imposter switch-ins then retreating etc, to weaken opposing Imposter enough that your breaker is less impeded. This is good because it increases in-game positional complexity. From a building perspective, it is true that many potential offensive sets are not worthwhile specifically because of Imposter, but this actually increases builder diversity for two reasons. One, some sets become overall worthwhile due to being more advantageous into Imposter (I'd argue to a greater extent than sets are crowded out in an Imposter-less metagame because of qualities intrinsically strong vs. Imposter – think Plate Judgment, Covert Cloak Salt Cure, Thunder Cage + Strength Sap, Ghost/Dragon supereffective STAB, etc.). Two, there are two ways a metagame with severely weakened Imposter can be tiered. Either the metagame without Imposter is extremely defensive or it is very matchup-based (what are you going to do if the opposing near-perfect-coverage breaker is circumstantially strong into your core?) – almost every type has a strong drawback-less attack on both the physical and special side, making balancing around neutral Fur Coat/Ice Scales walls pretty inevitable at this point. Players then gravitate towards the extremes of stacking enough bulky mons to be mostly safe from coverage spam, or they go all in on offense. Any in-between strategies become reliant on significant playing skill disparities, and are thus relegated to niche or unviable status. Imposter averts this outcome by forcing Imposter-proofing on walls (significantly restricting their movesets, making them vulnerable in non-Imposter scenarios or overall less effective at carrying out the its roles in the team's gameplans) and greatly restricting hyper-offensive strategies (by requiring credible plans vs. Imposter for all attackers). Consequently, Hackmons metagames with Imposter are generally more strategically diverse.

I think the way BH currently plays is unfortunate but it isn't really in the council's power to increase playing skill expression and viable builder variety, at least not by that much. As I explained above good coverage moves being too varied (in addition to 8 PP recovery and universal boosting Abilities like Beads + Sword of Ruin) means the meta is fundamentally locked into being balanced around Fur Coat and Ice Scales, and there just aren't as many balanced constraints for passive gameplay as in previous gens (notably Poison Heal). I talked about problems with the pre-unban meta here and I haven't changed my opinions much, but I do think the unbans did legitimately alleviate some meta problems from that time (ex. faster pacing decreases Mortal Spin's unhealthiness, Primal Groudon being Fire-type somewhat decreases Bulwark's unhealthiness and faster pacing decreases Magic Guard Chansey's prevalence, etc.). However, Groudon's insane type coverage synergies (3 of Ground/Fire/Ice/Electric with the possibility of Dragon/Fairy coverage, of which you cannot possibly cover close to all of) and Diancie's coverage strength precipitate somewhat of a "you either answer them or you don't" matchup roulette. I could be wrong in the long run but given previous generations offensive Pokemon were chiefly limited by relatively worse coverage moves I'm not very optimistic right now.

Unbanning stuff is an interesting idea but there's not much that wouldn't negatively interfere with what I've been talking about. Neutralizing Gas makes RegenVest near-unviable, centralizes the meta around item removal (single strategy, so this is a bad thing), and is honestly kinda crazy with consistent residual damage like Mortal Spin poison or Salt Cure. Libero/Protean acts a lot like a 1.5x damage amp on both sides vs. FurScales cores when on a team built to repeatedly bring the attacker in via slow pivoting (with the punishment for clicking wrong being minimal). Shedinja is arguably balanced (people could reasonably deal with it in the builder without severely nerfing most strategies) but forcing Ghost-types/elaborate 2-Regenerator cores on most teams due to Endeavor is a constraint that reasonably irks most players. I think banning most setup moves in exchange for freeing Poison Heal should be seriously explored, but the loss of non-Poison Heal setup would of course be very major and "the meta is better this way" alone isn't sufficient reason to tier.

tldr I agree that Gen 9 BH is pretty "bad" (worse equilibrium of building variety at a high level + in-game positional complexity) compared to other BH metas but there's not much anyone can do about it

After an hour long rabbit hole chase down your previous post, which led to a rabbit hole into the smogon tiering policy, I have observed the following:

A. Your analysis of the format exceeds my own and I think your takes are, almost without exception, correct
B. I have a genuine question for the BH community with regard to how the council operates.


The tiering policy for all of smogon ends with this statement regarding the goal of the tiering policy:

I.) To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.
II.) To ensure that both our ladder and tournament crowds are catered to regarding I.)
III.) To ensure that actions are taken with appropriate and complete justification.
IV.) To preserve the spirit of the design of Pokemon, both individually and as a generation.


In what way at is BH faithful to point IV?

The tiering policy was very intentionally written for a non-BH environment, where not every pokemon can learn every move and have every ability (A foreign concept to us lol). Is this an oversight in how our format has handled tiering, or is the general consensus that the tiering policy is applicable in spirit to a more unconventional format?

 

[fiish]

Point IV does not apply to BH and most other Other Metagames, which is why they are Other Metagames and not official (sorry, I mean "top-level") metagames. Point IV is also not about creating a tier that is competitive, so it doesn't really matter when discussing balance issues.

 

[Siffy Star]

I don't really talk very much, and only feel inclined to make a post when I feel something should be brought up. I'm additionally not someone super involved in the community as a whole, so I understand if my opinion isn't taken very seriously as a result. But, like... the recent changes have honestly made BH ladder feel kind of crappy. I only casually ladder and I don't really know what tours are like right now, but I want to make my opinion known here.

Ya guys, I'm starting to think that maybe having a pokemon with greater physical bulk than Arceus, all of the benefits of Blaziken and Garchomp with only Speed being their shared downside, and twenty or more viable sets legal in BH isn't a good idea. Primal Groudon has literally caused most Steel-types to disappear entirely from the meta with only Kartana and Primordial Sea Celesteela being used now.

Groudon and Diancie are both extremely unhealthy, especially together. Groudon has made Diancie checks far less common overall, while Diancie makes Fur Coats and bulky Dragons a living hell. But I overwhelmingly believe Primal Groudon is more unhealthy.

In my opinion, the list of viable Primal Groudon sets are:

• Tough Claws Choice Band, a nuclear breaker that does everything Blaziken and Garchomp did but better. Sword of Ruin is another similar set worth mentioning.
• Mold Breaker is an extremely common set, often paired with Clear Amulet to make it even harder to check. This set has basically made Ability Shield mandatory on Fur Coats and further strains teambuilding in a way no other Pokemon has.
• Desolate Land, an extremely versatile set that removes one major weakness and allows for extremely difficult-to-check setup strategies, as well as the ability to be a nuclear mixed breaker with minimal support.
• Triage is viewed as a cheesy matchup fish, except my findings are that if you cannot counter it and quickly, it can and very easily will run away with a game, especially if your opponent lacks Imposter, which Imposter hates Primal Groudon as it is.
• Levitate lets it check other Primal Groudons, and serve as a non-passive utility mon. Primal Groudon is functionally impossible to spinblock and as a result has largely caused hazard stack to disappear from ladder.
• Regenerator Assault Vest makes it a constant, perpetual pest that never dies no matter what as long as you can play half decently, and even without an Assault Vest, Regenerator will constantly harass any form of defense and I've seen Covert Cloak used viably as a result.
• Fur Coat works on a Pokemon with higher Defense than Arceus, and Primal Groudon's type leaves it only really weak to Ash Greninja and other Primal Groudons.
• Ice Scales works on it, but it needs more support to handle Primal Kyogre and Palkia-O. If you can work around it, Primal Groudon can definitely be used as a Specially Defensive Pokemon to annoy bulky Dragon-types and Mega Diancie/Flutter Mane.
• STAB Torch Song and a 4x weakness lets it easily run Unburden to fish a matchup against unsuspecting opponents while being self-imposterproofed. This set will usually cause you to lose instantly if you don't have a Primordial Sea/Well-Baked Body pokemon, as its very easy for Primal Groudon to run away with a win in this case. Dawn Wings Necrozma wishes it was as effective as this.
• Guess what? It also runs physical Unburden well, too. With Psychic Surge, it can use a Psychic Seed to patch up its weaker defense while being immune to Jet Punch, and Misty Surge is also likely a viable option as well.
• Sheer Force with Life Orb is a mixed breaker that can easily 2HKO Primordial Sea Steel-types while also OHKOing Imposter as it has Steam Eruption available as viable coverage.
• A Fire-type Pokemon is always able to viably run Chlorophyll with Sun support, and Primal Groudon is capable of breaking even without V-create.
• Outside of Sun, I've seen Speed Boost used and Swords Dance with Speed Boost leaves it even harder to check while making Imposter even harder to bring in.
• Tinted Lens allows banded sets to click STABs without having to predict as much and only have to worry about Primordial Sea Celesteela otherwise, and completely invalidate even Levitate Dragon-types.
• I've seen some users run Refrigerate Boomburst to delete those same pesky Dragon-types and Primordial Sea Landorus-Ts that would deal with most Primal Groudon sets, and it also has respectably strong priority in Extreme Speed to compliment it.
• Magic Guard Life Orb allows it to sit on basically anything remotely passive and click Flare Blitz or hazards or even Swords Dance and gain progress. Anything like Ting-Lu or Registeel or Mega Audino gets immediately and promptly punished for sitting in front of Primal Groudon. As Primal Groudon is almost impossible to spinblock, MGLO can also be your primary form of hazard removal and even fat balance would be helpless to spinblock it. MGLO offers ludicrous utility while not having the weaknesses Ho-Oh does.
• Basically any strong physical attacker can viably run GaG and Magic Bounce, and unlike those physical attackers, Primal Groudon can viably run defensive Magic Bounce as well.

It might have sounded like an exaggeration saying "twenty sets", but I literally listed nineteen different sets all ranging from breaker, cleaner, setup sweeper, defensive, and utility. All of these having wildly different movesets and counterplay as a result, on a Pokemon which discourages Imposter switch-ins at that. And that's just what I managed to think of. I'm sure a lot of better players than myself can make some very unhinged sets like Simple or Beads of Ruin work. My point is, Primal Groudon literally has greater versatility than Arceus while having the capability to break which is something Arceus itself struggles with.

I consider Mega Diancie to be unhealthy as well. People have not explored it nearly as much as they should be, and as such its a very one-tone Pokemon, if you get my point. Its Rock-type STAB is not to be underestimated; Rocky Payload Stone Judgment can self-imposterproof on an offensive team for example, while OHKOing a lot of stuff after a Nasty Plot. But ultimately, because Mega Diancie lacks the bulk and extremely good type of Primal Groudon, I consider Primal Groudon to be more of a problem.

Sorry for the long winded post, I just wanted to give my two cents on the current state of the meta. The beginning of the post was a bit snide, but was not intended to be rude whatsoever.

 

[ANinjaDude]

So I've been thinking a lot about PDon and MDiancie, and I think that they both are ultimately unhealthy for the meta. MDiancie is just stupid fucking obnoxious to try and check because PixiBurst hits like a damn freight train, and the few things that would check it are either easily sniped by MDia or are a lot harder to run because of the presence of PDon. Steels aren't really easy to run because of the presence of PDon, and MDia can slot on HLR to fuck up most checks, steels included, but it can also easily add Pyro Ball or Armor Cannon to snipe Levitate Steels. Fires like PDon and Ho-Oh aren't safe either, because Stone Axe is common on MDiancie as a STAB option with good utility, which fucks up Ho-Oh, and HLR is common as coverage for all non-Levitate/Celesteela/Ho-Oh resists for Boomburst. These already constrain MDia's checks quite heavily, but are by no means the only things it can use. Pixilate Extreme Speed makes it hard to just out-offense it with faster pokemon, Surging Strikes/Steam Eruption lets MDia destroy Levitate PDon while also hitting Scales Ho-Oh and PSea Steels hard, Volt Switch lets it get momentum on would-be checks the same way that MGarde/MZam would, Population Bomb lets it annihilate non-resists on the physical side, etc. All of this combines to create a pokemon that already is checked by very little, and it can narrow that list of checks even further without sacrificing much of anything, as the only necessary thing on the set is Boomburst.

The cherry on top is that this is only one of several viable abilities. I've used Sheer Force MDia to devestating effect before, sacrificing damage with Fairy STAB for significantly stronger coverage, allowing it to punch holes in teams that stack multiple MDia checks. Unburden is also usable, because a free Nasty Plot boost on top of self-proofing and giving you coverage that compliments your STABs is never going to be bad. Rocky Payload is also viable, because it selfproofs and hits some insane damage calcs with Rock Judgment. MGLO MDia is also usable, because while you don't have LoR or Mind Blown anymore, you still have STAB Head Smash, along with whatever combination of Wave Crash/HJK/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz/Volt Tackle/Moonblast/Magical Torque/Chloroblast you want to punch through whatever would-be checks your team doesn't handle as easily. These probably aren't even the only viable abilities either, they're just the ones I know are viable.

This also leads into the final issue I have with MDia. While its checks are few and far-between, and it can choose to invalidate several of them, that by itself might be able to be played around, but the MDia has 5 other pokemon to enable it. This enabling goes beyond the typical "oh just pivot into it with a RegenVest" as well, because the team can also pretty easily remove/weaken the few checks that your MDia doesn't invalidate, putting your opponent into a lose-lose scenario of either being forced to sack mons to the MDia's teammates, or letting their MDia check get weakened and then losing to MDia. Overall, I think that MDia has too much flexibility for how strong it is, and should be banned because of both the amount that it constrains the builder, and how easily it can bypass even its "good" checks.

I was originally going to add my thoughts about PDon here as well, but I'm getting a headache and didn't think that my MDia portion would get this long, so I'll be coming back for PDon later. I will say that I think that the main issue with Big Don is its versatility and lack of flaws, but I will go into that in more detail later.

 

[Chessking]

Seen some posts and discord discussion regarding tiering action and so wanted to address these in some directionless rambling as per usual.
Note this has nothing to do with the deleted posts I had this written up yday

We are just over 3 months since the meta changes have taken place. I personally am quite happy with the changes and the resulting meta, both in its current state and in the short term future through further developments. The nearly fresh slate while still retaining a skeleton of "established good sets on established Pokemon (importantly they don't have to be good though!) is akin to the period after new gen/DLCs drop, while being better by not being completely in the fog. I think that this is further made interesting by the varied opinions and viewpoints of the current community (even if it is still split into a few major groups), compared to pre-March when they were more homogenous. And it is because of this current state of community that council does not find anything demanding tiering action currently, since if a large portion of the top players do not share the same preferred Pokemon or sets and the meta is volatile then what determines if something is actually problematic? I also do not expect these opinions to start homogenizing given OMPL ongoing, which typically prevents this as players gatekeep opinions.

And even disregarding the whole differing viewpoints part, I personally also just don't agree with any of the elements brought up most by people. I find that most elements can be answered quite reasonably and that teambuilding has felt overall fine in terms of restrictiveness, with any limitations mostly being the same macro stuff that has been around for most of the gen (excuse my vagueposting but I unfortunately am part of the gatekeep side). To continue vagueposting, this is not to say I think that these elements are definitely balanced, but in the current state of the meta warped by how people are building and using Pokemon, I think they are all fair. I think it definitely helps that, for the most part, Pokemon are able to be checked by sets that have fairly good compression (i.e. they are able to fulfill other defensive roles). I also think that there are plenty of adaptations made and to be made, and only until the meta has settled in more can we more properly judge the unbans.

With maybe the exception of Arceus-Ghost, personally. If you needed me to list what I think is the most standout element in current OMPL meta, that would be my pick. With the current way people are using Ghostceus it has climbed rapidly to roughly tied for first in usage, which is impressive for being an Arceus forme. On top of already having limited Pokemon answers, with the "best" ones being like Yveltal and Audino, its surprising diversity in sets all while remaining effective (very much helped by built in selfproof) further limits the specific sets these checks need. Knock Off and Mortal Spin's common presence demands Magic Guard on the former and likely Take Heart for the latter, while Take Heart and Strength Sap + bulk demands passive moves like Topsy-Turvy on Yveltal (see: damflame), Spikes punishes lack of removal (and Audino sucks at removal). Take Heart nullified paralysis, MG prevents chip strategies, can also negate para by switching into Mortal, FC makes it challenging to beat it down with stuff like Knock while having splashability. All of these are not even accounting for the offensive sets. And of course these Pokemon like Yveltal and Audino are pretty much terrible outside of answering Ghostceus (and no this has been this way for well before the unbans), something that is very similar to Blaziken pre-unbans if not to a greater degree. This isn't advocating/suggesting tiering action since meta has plenty of opportunities to still adapt, just that I think this mon is more problematic than anything people have brought up, and in the cases of people mentioning it I don't think the 3 unbans have much to do with this outside of adding 3 good matchups for it, as mentioned previously its checks havent been good for a while. The other thing that changed for it is lower opportunity cost in other arc formes (electric and water) being less common/valued, which has led to the duopoly between ghost and steel.

To respond to some specific points raised in previous posts:

Ya guys, I'm starting to think that maybe having a pokemon with greater physical bulk than Arceus, all of the benefits of Blaziken and Garchomp with only Speed being their shared downside, and twenty or more viable sets legal in BH isn't a good idea. Primal Groudon has literally caused most Steel-types to disappear entirely from the meta with only Kartana and Primordial Sea Celesteela being used now.

This is not true. You can check replays and usage stats yourself, Steels combined should comfortably be around or more than 100% usage and Steelceus itself is easily the 2nd most common Arc forme. PDon does not have nearly the level of flexibility people believe it to have and there are plenty of downsides to the mon (unfortunately im vagueposting here) and you can tell by the trend of usage through the 3 weeks.

Additionally, "I cannot tell what set it is" is also not true. It is very much possible, assuming sensible teams (on ladder the sensible are loading Imposter + outplaying anyways), to deduct, or at worse narrow down, the specific set on Preview, and as turns progress you get plenty of more information such as the plays being made (e.g. it NOT switching in), the specific sets of its teammates (missing roles + potential improofs and improofed bys), and this is not including outright scouting with Imposter. This works the exact same way as every other tier with preview, except you have Imposter and improofing which helps as restrictions to counterbalance the sandbox nature. It also helps that the most common offensive set (the most threatening/punishing/dangerous to switch into) fully announces, and the other most common one is a offense exclusive, while the other sets aren't nearly as potent/common.

So I've been thinking a lot about PDon and MDiancie, and I think that they both are ultimately unhealthy for the meta.

Can't reply to this while vagueposting gg

TLDR: Meta is fine, I think its enjoyable, if anything needs to be looked at personally think its Ghostceus.

Edit: oh and for any fellow gatekeepers due to ompl, I encourage you to consider drafting up posts for whenever ompl ends for you. Should there be something that we want to tiering action there’s only a short window before hackmons pl that would be least disruptive so it is best to have your posts in asap.

 

[Akira]

Can't post my full thoughts sadly because yeah OMPL, but I will say that diancie is probably even more egregious than pdon, and pdon has kind of been covering it up. the TLDR on the pdon issue is that mortal spin is unblockable and the SG set is easy to play around sure but still just fundamentally a huge builder constraint because it kills nearly everything in the tier bar ashield users (which means your pdon checks won't be able to take mortal). I don't want us to return to the dogshit meta state where we were considering banning mortal spin because nobody had figured out counterplay (which there was then, and might be now, but I really have to doubt it).
Diancie simply isn't a fair pokemon to wall, unlike gardevoir it can fit just about any coverage it wants, and while some may say "4MSS is the only reason anything in bh is wallable", Diancie's ability to pick off fast ice scales mons like arceus or zacian from very fair ranges with LO espeed and ability to fit physical coverage for any regenvest is the main issue.
Neutral Ice Scales arceus is picked off by LO rash boomburst into espeed from 71% on a double minroll, and 80% on an average roll while zacian is guaranteed to die after rocks, admittedly most people are currently running +spe and not life orb, but the calcs reach a similar extent with +atk pixie plate, since espeed does a little more into scales than boomburst. 4mss is rough, but when scales mons only need a tiny bit of chip, you can just run Headlong + a move that hits celesteela (bolt or pyro realistically) and you've covered everything, losing to psea teela isn't even that big of a problem with pyro since +spatk LO boomburst will 2hko it after rocks). Oh yeah and LO rash also has 86% roll to 2hko pdon from full so lets be serious about claiming levidon as a check, even +spdef is a coinflip away from dying to pixie plate boomburst after rocks.
These calcs are admittedly generous, assuming chip and rocks and whatnot, and life orb is a hard sell compared to pixie plate so you lose a bit of damage there. I don't think diancie is broken to the extent of winning on the spot unless your opponents team is bad, but it gets free entry on the vast majority of offensive mons, on ting lu, on all the dragons that pop up to check pdon, and the only reliable answers (FC Poisonceus and to a lesser extent FC Steelceus) are notably fur coats that cost an arc slot (very tight in the current meta) and do not check Pdon. So diancie gets the opportunity to claim kills freely against teams that have even the most marginal of chip, while sometimes having the adequate coverage to just kill you anyway.

Aaaanyway since my post won't get deleted may as well slander chess a little. Who confidently affirms that the meta is good and tiering did not need to be revisited before OMPL while not having built a single team between the changes and OMPL.

proof

circa week 1 ompl:

I do actually respect his opinions now that we're a couple weeks in, even if I disagree, but I think it is genuinely irresponsible to lock in a volatile meta you did not play as TL for the year's OMPL.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

Unlike the two (ex) council members above me, I will post my thoughts DESPITE OMPL because I care about the community experience more than a tournament my team is guaranteed to win anyways. You see, many people will try to convince you that "Pdon is an issue" or "Diancie isn't a fair mon" but the real checks are hiding in plain sight.


Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Cover Cloak / Ability Shield
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Salt Cure / Mortal Spin
- Parting Shot / Teleport
- Strength Sap / Court Change / Burning Bulwark

This is basically the best non-Arceus Diancie wall available. You can thank FlamPoke for bringing a set so bad (Soundproof Slowbro) that I felt compelled to share this set to you today. Don't worry about the calcs, just trust me that this mon will wall most Diancies easily. Not only that, we also wall a bunch of miscellaneous mons like... Pdon, Steel Arc, Zamazenta, Flutter Mane and others. You know, mons that a you see a few people run. Toxapex blocks Pain Split, Strength Sap AND can pivot slower thanks to its statline.

IF words are not enough to convince you, I have a replay right here showing Toxapex putting in A LOT of work walling a Pdon because its last move is definitely Strength Sap.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9balancedhackmons-946466



Salamence-Mega @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Guard / Purifying Salt / Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Brave Bird / Dragon Tail
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Dragon Energy / Some utility
- Some utility

Next up is Mega Salamence. This mon has one of the best typing to wall Pdon and a solid 120 speed and good bulk. Magic Guard is the best ability to remove the Rocks and Poison vulnerability and enables Brave Bird. To be honest, I think you should run a STAB, Recovery and 2 utility moves right now since this mon isn't gonna be breaking anything tbh. Some utility moves include Glare, Knock Off, Spikes, hazard removal, Topsy and such. Notably I like Haze because it removes attack drops from Sap so you can beat some sappers like Pdon and Zamazenta eventually.

Outside of MG there are a few other options. Purifying Salt Salamence into a Ghost arc soft check which is very useful. However, it doesn't remove hazard or recoil chip which is a considerable downside. Fur Coat is another option which is much better into non-moldy offensive Pdons since they don't carry moves like Mortal Spin or Knock Off. It can also wall Kartana since it's a fast Fur Coat mon.

I have a whole video for you to watch if you need to see a Mega Dragon/Flying type Pokemon beating Pdon in the world stage right here:

Metagross-Mega @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gigaton Hammer / Iron Head
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Salt Cure / Utility
- Sacred Fire / Blazing Torque / Combat Torque

Obviously everyone already knows FC Steel Arc but what if I tell you that you can downgrade your Steel Arc a little bit so you can run Ghost Arc? Metagross has almost the same physical bulk as Arceus which means it is as good as Arc if you want to wall Kartana.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat 258-304 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Admittedly, Metagross isn't as good at walling Diancie since it takes about 30% more damage on the special side but that's pretty good for a fairy resist that can outspeed Diancie.


Now that you are equipped with knowledge, I want to sell you the newest 3-mon core that is sure to break the meta (terms and conditions apply, no refund allowed)

 

[cityscapes]

as promised i'll post again

In my opinion, the list of viable Primal Groudon sets are:

• Tough Claws Choice Band, a nuclear breaker that does everything Blaziken and Garchomp did but better. Sword of Ruin is another similar set worth mentioning.
• Mold Breaker is an extremely common set, often paired with Clear Amulet to make it even harder to check. This set has basically made Ability Shield mandatory on Fur Coats and further strains teambuilding in a way no other Pokemon has.
• Desolate Land, an extremely versatile set that removes one major weakness and allows for extremely difficult-to-check setup strategies, as well as the ability to be a nuclear mixed breaker with minimal support.
• Triage is viewed as a cheesy matchup fish, except my findings are that if you cannot counter it and quickly, it can and very easily will run away with a game, especially if your opponent lacks Imposter, which Imposter hates Primal Groudon as it is.
• Levitate lets it check other Primal Groudons, and serve as a non-passive utility mon. Primal Groudon is functionally impossible to spinblock and as a result has largely caused hazard stack to disappear from ladder.
• Regenerator Assault Vest makes it a constant, perpetual pest that never dies no matter what as long as you can play half decently, and even without an Assault Vest, Regenerator will constantly harass any form of defense and I've seen Covert Cloak used viably as a result.
• Fur Coat works on a Pokemon with higher Defense than Arceus, and Primal Groudon's type leaves it only really weak to Ash Greninja and other Primal Groudons.
• Ice Scales works on it, but it needs more support to handle Primal Kyogre and Palkia-O. If you can work around it, Primal Groudon can definitely be used as a Specially Defensive Pokemon to annoy bulky Dragon-types and Mega Diancie/Flutter Mane.
• STAB Torch Song and a 4x weakness lets it easily run Unburden to fish a matchup against unsuspecting opponents while being self-imposterproofed. This set will usually cause you to lose instantly if you don't have a Primordial Sea/Well-Baked Body pokemon, as its very easy for Primal Groudon to run away with a win in this case. Dawn Wings Necrozma wishes it was as effective as this.
• Guess what? It also runs physical Unburden well, too. With Psychic Surge, it can use a Psychic Seed to patch up its weaker defense while being immune to Jet Punch, and Misty Surge is also likely a viable option as well.
• Sheer Force with Life Orb is a mixed breaker that can easily 2HKO Primordial Sea Steel-types while also OHKOing Imposter as it has Steam Eruption available as viable coverage.
• A Fire-type Pokemon is always able to viably run Chlorophyll with Sun support, and Primal Groudon is capable of breaking even without V-create.
• Outside of Sun, I've seen Speed Boost used and Swords Dance with Speed Boost leaves it even harder to check while making Imposter even harder to bring in.
• Tinted Lens allows banded sets to click STABs without having to predict as much and only have to worry about Primordial Sea Celesteela otherwise, and completely invalidate even Levitate Dragon-types.
• I've seen some users run Refrigerate Boomburst to delete those same pesky Dragon-types and Primordial Sea Landorus-Ts that would deal with most Primal Groudon sets, and it also has respectably strong priority in Extreme Speed to compliment it.
• Magic Guard Life Orb allows it to sit on basically anything remotely passive and click Flare Blitz or hazards or even Swords Dance and gain progress. Anything like Ting-Lu or Registeel or Mega Audino gets immediately and promptly punished for sitting in front of Primal Groudon. As Primal Groudon is almost impossible to spinblock, MGLO can also be your primary form of hazard removal and even fat balance would be helpless to spinblock it. MGLO offers ludicrous utility while not having the weaknesses Ho-Oh does.
• Basically any strong physical attacker can viably run GaG and Magic Bounce, and unlike those physical attackers, Primal Groudon can viably run defensive Magic Bounce as well.

It might have sounded like an exaggeration saying "twenty sets", but I literally listed nineteen different sets all ranging from breaker, cleaner, setup sweeper, defensive, and utility. All of these having wildly different movesets and counterplay as a result, on a Pokemon which discourages Imposter switch-ins at that. And that's just what I managed to think of. I'm sure a lot of better players than myself can make some very unhinged sets like Simple or Beads of Ruin work. My point is, Primal Groudon literally has greater versatility than Arceus while having the capability to break which is something Arceus itself struggles with.

let me address this first. i don't think set variety is causative of unhealthiness in any significant way; we've had numerous extremely versatile mons (flutter, ogre, steela, etern, some arcs being readily available examples) that nonetheless have been uncontroversially fine for the meta, and extremely fixed ones (hadron eleki, guts slaking, imprison power trip) that have been banned. also, i disagree that every pdon set affects the meta equally.

i think the relevant pdons are like:
levi > shift gear > desolate land > regenvest > everything else

desolate land might have less usage than regenvest or be "worse" but i think it's worth noting just for how hard it shuts down anything that relies on water moves. this is why we never see revdance cage waterceus anymore for instance.

anyway, i think the defining trait of this gen has been the nerfing of passive mons. recovery pp, mortal/salt, no waves/anchor, no spectral/core have combined to make your honest fc/scales clicker struggle more than previously. yet despite this, there have been many reasons to use such mons; regenvests can never do everything on their own, and fc sap arcs are always vulnerable to sapblocking.

this is gonna feel very simplified but i think it's a reasonable statement to make: it feels like pdon has completely supplanted the job of punishing passive mons. whereas before you'd have to use precise building and playing sequences to force progress against these mons, now you can just slap on a blades/mortal pdon to do the job for you. i think this has many problems game design wise.

first of all, since pdon is so centralizing itself, anything that lets it in without killing it just gets forcefully shoved out of the meta. this is easy to see in anything that relied on strong ground/fire coverage, including quite a few unburden users, landorus-t, all but the most scorched earth chomp sets, offensive fire-types as an archetype (incl moth, fireceus, chicken, hooh, gouging fire, non-moldy pdon itself LMAOOO), and any fairy less insane than diancie (incl pixi zac, essentially all fairyceus, sf zac, xern). obviously some mons get better and others get worse with a meta shift, but these are *garbage*, they're completely unusable.

there's also stuff that used to be "barely strong enough" to fend off regenvests and force in unwieldy, immobile, bulkier fcs/arcs like this guy:

when its on its on (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Combat Torque

and this guy:

Kingambit @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Combat Torque
- Sunsteel Strike

im not saying that these mons were all good, some were and are pretty bad, but nowadays they're completely uninteresting and irredeemable. this is what pdon does to the meta: it just shears off everything except the mons that have the highest numbers, because letting it in at all is too high a cost when accounting for all the moves levi/regenvest can and do run. not to mention "get hazards on the counter" just doesn't work vs pdon because of how expensive it is to spinblock.

anyway going back to these passive mons, those have pretty much entirely dropped off the map. fc mortal hooh, fc/scales zac, most fc boots guys in general, even fucking blissey and non-levi etern which have well-defined roles still have a cap on their viability in practice cause of just how obnoxious it is to let in pdon. the effect of this is that actual metagame development gets stuck and pdon's presence singlehandedly cuts the viability and variety of checks to other top mons including ghostceus, diancie, and regenvests, resulting in a meta where these mons feel "broken" because you just lack options to handle them. safe mons like regenvests, imposter, and "neutral" fcs like zama and ghostceus spike in usage with nothing to materially challenge the homogenous hegemony.

the item situation is also fucking rancid, like 3/4 of the old-meta boots users are vulnerable to mortal pdon and this positional sin relegates them to garbage status, pdon is also not the only mortal user (see ghosty), ashield is also in demand (cloak vs shield on levi pdon is just the actual worst thing of all time), so the end result of this is teams get MORE reliant on mortal spin and other forms of removal (jury's out on whether those still exist), which then leads to some really ugly and similar hazard games where pdon vs pdon, pdon vs ghostceus, pdon vs regenvests matchups basically decide the game. not even getting into the teams that seriously try to outright spinblock pdon.

i don't pay attention to the tiering policy framework and i don't care if this is technically "unhealthy" or "broken" or whatever. what i know is that i don't like it and i want either pdon or mortal banned. thanks

 

[Siffy Star]

don't think set variety is causative of unhealthiness in any significant way; we've had numerous extremely versatile mons (flutter, ogre, steela, etern, some arcs being readily available examples) that nonetheless have been uncontroversially fine for the meta, and extremely fixed ones (hadron eleki, guts slaking, imprison power trip) that have been banned.

I feel obligated to respond to some points brought up against me and I will respond to this one first. Which I will strongly preface by saying I am absolutely not disagreeing with you. But there is a point I feel you haven't considered. The first set of pokemon you mentioned;

• Flutter Mane is a good special attacker that can serve as fantastic utility and a passable Ice Scales. What Flutter Mane does not do is act as a physical attacker or wall.
• Primal Kyogre is admittedly the closest mon to Primal Groudon, being able to use a majority of its sets without much compromise. But offensive ogre basically only works with huge support in most teams. Comparatively, don is outstanding as a standlone mon while it becomes oppressive with the more support it gets, especially if weather is involved.
• Steela is closer to Registeel offensively than don. Shitty offensive type too.
• Etern is fast, but has a lower Special Attack than Groudon. While it might be situationally better, as a wincon even special pdon is usually going to outperform and bulk is comparable on the physical side.

Alright, alright, you're probably saying "what's your point." My point is that pdon has almost every single positive aspect and set capability of these mons other than speed and certain type-based attributes like spinblocking. You have a mon here that can serve practically every role these mons mentioned can barring the type-based ones and this level of set variety is what makes it toxic. You know Flutter Mane isn't ever going to be a mixed attacker and that Celesteela isn't a wincon. Groudon can truly be literally anything, and the closest mon in Kyogre is far more transparent than Groudon is.

Additionally, "I cannot tell what set it is" is also not true. It is very much possible, assuming sensible teams (on ladder the sensible are loading Imposter + outplaying anyways), to deduct, or at worse narrow down, the specific set on Preview, and as turns progress you get plenty of more information such as the plays being made (e.g. it NOT switching in), the specific sets of its teammates (missing roles + potential improofs and improofed bys), and this is not including outright scouting with Imposter.

Okay, I flat out disagree. For the reason I stated above, pdon can fill any role due to its outstanding stats, two weaknesses which can be invalidated at will, and with it encouraging Ability Shield on Fur Coats, utility has far more leverage in punishing switch-ins. Saying Imposter is an option is like saying "Just scout their Eternatus with imp to find out their set." Except its arguably worse with pdon as Eternatus has solid checks for both utility/offense, while no such miracle mon exists for pdon. Yes you can lead with Imposter but your opponent leading with pdon is misplaying.

Yeah, its generally advised for you to get opportunities to scout a given mon, but with Ability Shield being punished with Mortal Spin on top of every single set having more wildly different counterplay than any other pokemon in the meta, the smartest play is to dedicate a teamslot to something fat but not bothered by utility like, idk, Magic Guard Arceus as your initial switch-in for everything other than Desolate Land and Mold Breaker. And if you are unlucky, you'll encounter a setup or band set that immediately steals any momentum you might have had and will even cost you the game at times.

don't pay attention to the tiering policy framework and i don't care if this is technically "unhealthy" or "broken" or whatever. what i know is that i don't like it and i want either pdon or mortal banned. thanks

I ultimately agree with this. One thing I wanted to bring up in response to your point... Not only is Mortal Spin from pdon frustrating to deal with defensively, it shits on defensive playstyles pretty hard. SVBH basically lacks much of a hazard game right now outside of the superman sample from aidan amoongus. Why bother playing hazard stack when pdon is among the hardest pokemon to spinblock in existence? This doesn't mention Rapid Spin Diancie. Hazard stack was a pretty common playstyle prior to pdon meta, now I feel it is niche at best because not only is the problem spinblocking pdon, but if you can't spinblock it, then the gameplan shifts to surviving pdon, which even if you have a Levitate Dragon or similar mon, it fucking sucks enough surviving the onslaught of chip damage that hazard stack is rarely worth playing unless you have a stallbreaker like Arceus on the team and this is why offensive Arceus has grown in popularity.

Steelceus was mentioned in a response to me, but Steelceus is used exclusively as a stallbreaker in my experience. +2 Earth Judgment OHKOes non-Levitate pdon. This is also why Ghostceus is so common as well right now. Stallbreaking is an extremely valued role, especially on sets that outspeed pdon. That being said, I still consider the only real viable defensive Steel-type to be Registeel.

Okay, so I've been rambling off for quite a while but I want to respond to several more points but will do so in a spoiler as to avoid clogging the thread too much.

hallward's post

Metagross-Mega @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gigaton Hammer / Iron Head
- Strength Sap / Recover
- Salt Cure / Utility
- Sacred Fire / Blazing Torque / Combat Torque

Obviously everyone already knows FC Steel Arc but what if I tell you that you can downgrade your Steel Arc a little bit so you can run Ghost Arc? Metagross has almost the same physical bulk as Arceus which means it is as good as Arc if you want to wall Kartana.

Okay so the reason I responded to this is simple, I think FC Steelceus is already a shitty set despite it being the most common Steelceus ability (I am of the belief Steelceus is better at stallbreaking than checking anything). The problem with this is it relegates the stallbreaking to Arceus anyways which was already the main draw, while making your fur coat a borderline theorymon that invites pdon in. Why bother?

Kartana has been outed as a scary mon by some people on this thread but Levidon, Ability Shield FC, and even shit like Koraidon and Sap Etern make Kartana genuinely middling as fuck right now. So you're making your FC a mon which gets countered by every pdon under the sun. Before you mention mence: Yeah you're still losing momentum with a fat Steel type which can't harm pdon back and gives pdon free opportunities to chip at mence, and this assumes your opponent isn't running glance/ice hammer and wins on team preview.

I think FC Steels are a stupid fucking prospect as it is. It isn't strictly your set, but people using FC Steelceus as their primary FC. They're far too common for how omnipresent Primal Groudon is. But your suggestion exascerbates the problem that already exists and mence isn't a super reliable check to pdon. Which is why I believe Steel-types are just barely relevant right now despite usage stats saying otherwise.

mega diancie

Okay so I have been using Mega Diancie more and more recently and neglected to comment on it in depth when I made my last post. Well, this one is for the likes of Ninja and Akira who I agree with.
Basically any time you come in, you hit like a god damn hydrogen bomb. Specs notably allows Diancie to avoid having to make plays against most opponents as anything other than RV Registeel is going to get easily 2HKOed. Pdon gets 2HKOed despite resist, and even neutral regenvests like ogre get trashed with hazards or minor chip. The biggest ability is just for this thing to be able to wear down any Ice Scales with 16PP Boomburst and its moveset freedom and higher speed than Mega Gardevoir means that even otherwise safe checks like AV Celesteela, Ho-Oh and MG Chansey/Blissey can easily be slotted for in coverage while having insane freedom in its moveset.
/ Can easily run any form of utility while still requiring constant respect. The big deal with these items is that the presence of pdon means that Diancie stands to lose very little in threatening capability while offering multiple forms of utility as well.
Sheer Force has some utterly fucking ludicrous calcs which beg the question of why this thing is legal.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
Moonblast and Diamond Storm can easily 2HKO even Arceus if it hits the weaker side. Physical Rock-type and special Fairy-type STAB basically answer 95% of the meta without the need to predict. And again, everything other than Registeel and Steelceus gets trashed by these two moves.
Rocky Payload was mentioned a few times. The shit RP can do with proper support is mind numbing.
+2 252 SpA Stone Plate Rocky Payload Diancie-Mega Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Groudon-Primal: 354-417 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Diancie-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 94-111 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- 62.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Stone Plate Rocky Payload Diancie-Mega Judgment vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 339-400 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Last two calcs are Imposter 1v1 calcs. And this is for +Spe, not +SpA Diancie.
Ninja already mentioned MGLO and Akira covered the moveset variability it has. But my point is this thing not only has utility and two exceptionally high offensive stats, it can use both of them to incredible extent due to the meta shift favoring Diancie at this moment.

I have had multiple games, far more than other wincons, where with decent hazard control (piss easy) I can deconstruct even competently built teams with Diancie no matter the set I use. It is ridiculously easy to use with most sets and can serve as one of the strongest breakers in the meta.

Sorry for the very long winded post. My current opinion is still to suspect primal groudon, but having used mega diancie more, its equally if not even more oppressive in the current meta and should have action taken against it as well.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

I am back to PATENT an offensive core. This core has won every tour game it's been used in. Please don't actually research these tour games, just trust me. So what core could I be referring to? It's of course none other than the Gren + Zam (GRAM) Volt-Turn core:


Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Primordial Sea / Technician / Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flip Turn
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Wicked Blow / Beat Up


Alakazam-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin / Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost / Expanding Force
- Armor Cannon / Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Astral Barrage

First I'll explain the reasoning behind the core. Greninja is one of the best anti-meta threat available right now. With only a Choice Band, it is able to OHKO Ghost Arc about 70% of the time from full with Wicked Blow. It can also OHKO Pdon with Jet Punch. This offensive way of checking threats by inflicting death is superior to defensive methods like Ice Scales or Fur Coat which are vulerable to 1.) Random coverage moves and 2.) Unexpected sets/abilities. For example, as long as the Pdon is not Water Absorb or Bulwark/Bunker (basically a cteam set), Greninja is able to kill every last one of them with Primordial Sea CB Jet Punch. Alakazam also has a similar role. Basically, it's a very fast mon that can OHKO dangerous NP setup mons that outspeed/beat Greninja like Etern, Flutter Mane, Koraidon, Zamazenta, FC Arceus, etc.

The next point is Volt-Turn. This core excels when you give it good hazard control because Volt-Turn scales with hazards on both ends. The more hazard you stack, the better, but the more hazards on your side, the worse it is. Greninja baits in FCs especially Zamazenta/Koraidon which are both Zam food. On the flip side, Greninja can kill RegenVests like Ting-Lu, Celesteela, Registeel and Pdon with powerful water moves. Even if your opponent has a check to both of these mons, you can stack hazards and have other mons on your team to help. Volt-Turn helps positioning immensely if you predict well.

Now that you understand The Vision™, let's go over the moves. The standard sets I like is Specs Beads Zam and Band Psea Greninja:

Standard GRAM Core

Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flip Turn
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Wicked Blow


Alakazam-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Armor Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Astral Barrage

I recommend Psea Greninja because it resets the weather which is very good into offense sun teams and Desoland Pdon. It doesn't boost Wicked Blow but thankfully Gren has enough attack to kill non-FC Ghost Arc without an ability. Technician is a niche option if you already have a Drizzle or Psea mon. For example, you can use Technician Gren to kill an impostered Psea Steela. You can also run Beat Up over Wicked Blow but to be honest I'd only run that if you wanna improof with a Rocky Helmet mon. Apparently if a mon has a non-volatile status, that mon doesn't actually participate in the Beat Up which is disastrously awful. The last option is to just run Sniper. Sniper obviously makes your Wicked Blow hit way harder but it makes your Flip Turn and Jet Punch weak. Also you can't kill a boosted/scarf Desoland Pdon or reset the weather vs Sun.

I think Beads is important to boost all of Zam's moves. It's worth mentioning Psychic Surge though. PsySurge helps against Diancie which is one of the mons that can break your VoltTurn through Pixilate Espeed. However, PsySurge doesn't boost your coverage and has anti-synergy with Gren's Jet Punch so I recommend Beads instead. You can definitely run PsySurge though, though you'll have to build the rest of the team around its pros (better psychic move & prio immunity) and cons (less coverage damage & opp prio immunity too). As for the coverage, I like Astral Barrage to hit Ghosts and Imposter without worrying about accuracy and the spatk drop. Volt Switch to pivot into Gren, and last can be Armor Cannon or Fleur Cannon depending on how you want to Improof or what you want to kill. Notably you can always improof with Imposter Chansey though I would still run another improof so you're not pressured to keep Imposter healthy all the time.

Now that I've sold you the solution to the problem, I will now sell you the solution TO the solution to the problem.


Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Flower Trick
- Gigaton Hammer
- Pyro Ball

Do you ever think to yourself "man I need to play against somebody who's gonna run psychic terrain, how can I revenge kill their unburden mons?" I have the solution for you: Grassy Surge Kartana. We simply have to turn ground green and smash them with Grassy Glide. Not only does Kartana beat your enemy, it also heals your team for 30% over 5 turns. That's almost as much as Regenerator. Pretend there are some really convincing argument as to why you should definitely run Grassy Surge Kartana here. Anyways

Now that I've established new strategies to beat Diancie, Pdon, Ghost Arc and Kartana, I think it's time to turn our attention to the what we should REALLY be banning:

THE TRUE CULPRIT OF BH

 

[Chessking]

Some interesting/notable sets I've used or have considered, ordered in current VR order, along with some teams. Would be cool if anyone else finds inspiration for these for the rest of pl/ssnl. Thoughts on Big 4 will be in a post soon after to keep things separate.


Dual Coverage Diancie
Diancie-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Pyro Ball / Bolt Strike
- Surging Strikes / Earth Power / Precipice Blades / Headlong Rush

Diancie-Mega @ Wide Lens
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Population Bomb
- Surging Strikes
- Precipice Blades

2 STABs + 2 Coverage Diancie is something I feel like I have not seen as often as I expect. I will elaborate on this in the follow up post, but two actual coverage moves instead of fake moves like Stone Axe really helps you blanket as much as possible, and improofing is never an issue because you want your own sturdy Diancie answer anyways.
I think on Balance Life Orb is a bait, you want longevity for the revenge-killing utility in bad matchups and repeated threat in even matchups, while Life Orb is just fishing that you run into a poorly prepared team. Leftovers is kind of old idea from Gen 7, helps offset random chip damage, but Pixie Plate is also good. You can also run a physical set with Lens Population Bomb, that set can consider dropping Pyro Ball since you 2HKO Celesteela with Pop Bomb anyways and you want Surging for PDon unlike with Boomburst sets. Otherwise Pyro Ball is necessary for the (undeserving) number of Celesteelas around; Surging hits Fires like Heatran, Ho-Oh, and AV PDon; EP is something I haven't thought of until relatively recently but its the strongest punish against FC Steels, still hits PDon harder, and its not like Blades/HLR is for much anyways (but you run it on Pop Bomb and Bolt Strike sets for Registeel). I prefer Rash nature generally (+Atk for Pop Bomb sets) but Naive is fine if you value the speed.


Normalize Ghosty
Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Thunder Cage
- Entrainment
- Strength Sap

If you look at how teams beat Norm Flutter these days, theres a overwhelmingly high number that just rely on "answers" like Steel RevDance or Diancie ESpeed and the likes (Ghostceus should no longer be a check in itself with Flutters supposed to be running Spooky > Pixie now), and thinking about it for a bit you realize they all get devoured by Ghostceus, who is neutral to Steel (Dark RevDance is nonexistent for Norm counterplay due to Flutter), has great bulk for priority, and has permanent Plate for half measures like Trick. All this combined makes Norm Ghostceus already a threatening wincon against teams but its made even more lethal by Ghostceus's own existing popular sets and how frequent people switch in RegenVests to slow pivot or Salt Cure and the likes, giving you free kills and opening up teammates.
Cage Entrain is the standard duo to eliminate RegenVests and stuff, and I like Sap to take advantage of its bulk. This does make it Tauntless which is annoying into PShot/TP users but you can't catch them all, and with the lack of Scales in the meta you can chip away at most of those with Cage and Judgment anyways.


Regen Etern
Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Clear Smog
- Dragon Energy
- Switcheroo

This is nothing new and way more popular than most other sets here, but I've found this increasingly splashable as it helps soft blanket every non-Steel Arc including helping against the annoying Ghosty, being a relatively non-passive stopgap against it. Poison-type also helps with Toxic Spikes matchup fishing, and in most matchups you can easily connect a Trick and half cripple something.


Simple Steely
Arceus-Steel @ Fist Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Judgment
- Revelation Dance / Tachyon Cutter
- Recover

Motivation is simply that often Steelceus is missing out on enough damage to OHKO stuff at +2 even with AV removed, and PDon's presence also makes it annoying as Fist Judg never kills and Earth Judg has to contend with Levitate. Enter Simple, the strongest boosting ability (I originally was thinking BoR but forgot about Simple). It helps boost damage enough to be quite reasonable threatening, and profits from a heavy decline in Scales Eleceus usage. Just make sure to Knock AVs and chip PDon.
+4 252 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 614-724 (119.4 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 400-472 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Steel Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 176-208 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO


Double Spin Ting
Ting-Lu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Mortal Spin

For those who hate playing spinblock prediction games or can't reliably fit 2 reasonable spinners. Ting-Lu is like the best user of double Spin because it functions best while only having U-turn and Knock Off, and it also has good matchup into Gholdengo. Missing on something like Dragon Tail is annoying but saving a spin on another Pokemon can be enough to offset. Don't run if your gameplan is to stack hazards though, you're not going to be able to deny Imposter spins outside of running atrocious Fur Coat Gholdengo or the likes.


Psysurge Zam
Alakazam-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Psystrike
- Armor Cannon
- Fleur Cannon

Zam initially profited off people using RegenVest PDon over actual good Pokemon like Ting-Lu, because you just obliterate non-resists. People have learned the ways though however Zam is still pretty nice. In this meta I prefer PsySurge over BoR on Zam, I know some prefer vice versa with the damage boost on like Astral, but under the assumption that Diancie is good and used its nice to turn that into a entry rather than a threat. It also offers more clickable STABs between Expanding Force (way nicer to autopilot click than Psycho Boost which will make you pray every turn you click it) and Psystrike (pretty good at negating Regen on intact AVs, and is best damage option on Imposter without running a Ghost move, while also helping with Take Heart users. Without BoR I don't think there is that much incentive for Volt (still team dependent though) and having both Armor and Fleur helps actually push through Regen cores.
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam-Mega Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Groudon-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 246-291 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam-Mega Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 153-181 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam-Mega Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Flutter Mane in Psychic Terrain: 450-529 (143.3 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam-Mega Psystrike vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Alakazam-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 137-162 (19.4 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO


Impish Cloak Fightceus
Arceus-Fighting @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Combat Torque / Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- Mortal Spin
- Strength Sap

Arceus is bulky enough to live +1 PDon HLR decently well with a +Def nature, and Fightceus is a neutral type unlike Waterceus which gets packed by Bolt Strike. This gives this option as a set that can switch into both Moldy Don and utility LeviDons, though its worse into AshGren and you need something else for Kartana. Combat Torque obviously better option for Arceus but without Ghostceus as an option improofing Torque is more annoying than one might think.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Groudon-Primal Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fighting: 341-402 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Triage Slowbro
Slowbro-Mega @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Scald
- Mortal Spin
- Parting Shot

This is not a set we ended up testing since we went with FC Shield Korai instead in the game (and loading 6-0ed by Chomp but shh). Triage is key over Prankster because it prevents the Sap from being blocked by Ting, and it also does allow slow pivoting with PShot. Anyways the main point of the set is priority Sap neutralizes Mold Don and Kartana, especially with the latter not running Grass moves that commonly. You can also run this on some other physically fat Pokemon like Giratina but dying to Gigaton is rough. Beware of Psysurge.


MG Anti-Ghosty Yveltal
Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Revelation Dance / Foul Play
- Strength Sap
- Topsy-Turvy / Rapid Spin
- Spirit Shackle

Ghosty is everywhere and annoying to deal with, and Yveltal is on paper the best answer to it. You 100% need MG due to Knock sets and Mortal sets but MG is a good ability. The challenge comes from needing to reliably beat Take Heart + Strength Sap + potentially Fur Coat, the latter making Knock Off actually a hard to run move on Yveltal. Revelation Dance is a generally spammable STAB into anything thats not a RegenVest, but to deal with Take Heart I've found Topsy to be the best option, since boosting moves of your own can be momentum sink into Ting-Lu or something and also loses to Unaware. Rev Dance also has a niche of punishing Kartana very hard. Alternatively, particularly if you want the moveslot for Rapid Spin to bully Knock Spikes Ghostceus, the move I found that theoretically works is the giga Foul Play, since it isn't affected by Strength Sap drops. It also benefits off high attack Pokemon running around like PDon.
+Speed is very very useful to pick off Kartana. Shackle is not a great move but I didn't want to deal with trying to Improof it even if its not particularly hard, and its also a good move to punish Flutter Mane.
252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 282-333 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 169-200 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk 0 IVs Life Orb Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Ghost: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 146-173 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


LeviTran
Heatran @ Ability Shield / Leftovers / Covert Cloak
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Teleport / Parting Shot
- Slack Off
- Stone Axe
- Steam Eruption / Gigaton Hammer

Heatran is one of the mons I see very few people exploring/using, while people constantly complain about certain Pokemon. The typing is really really really good in this meta, you naturally 4x resist Steel and Fairy which means even with modest bulk you don't need an ability to eat those attacks, which gives you Levitate. This also incidentally means you are decent into utility PDon sets, which is what Cloak is for if you need to really shut down Fire Lash, and this is also why I like Stone Axe on it. Ability Shield turns you into a makeshift answer to Mold Don and you OHKO with Steam, while Leftovers can really help with alleviating chip to "increase" bulk. Gigaton is good for Fairies. +Def is the way to better absorb Pyro Ball and PDon moves, SpD only helps with like Flutter and you were never good into that anyways.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 118-140 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 80-94 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Pyro Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 106-125 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


FC Solg
Solgaleo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Combat Torque
- Psychic Noise

People already use a decent bit of FC Steely which is like one of the best counters to Diancie sets and Kartana. That consumes the Arc slot though, and offensively FC Steely isn't very impressive nowadays. Enter Solgaleo, which has enough speed to outspeed the neutral natured ones and has good bulk, and the bulk is very nice compared to Metagross because really no one runs Jolly Kart and Diancie would be a speed tie anyways. The moveslots are very flexible I went with this for the specific improof I needed. Solgaleo also has a benefit of actually spinblocking Fightings decently well, as long as you don't get horribly unlucky with full paras or flinch drops. You also get item freedom unlike Arc, which lets you run stuff like Helmet to naturally hard punish Kartana and the likes.

---

Normalize Arceus-Ghost + Psysurge Alakazam-Mega
Team is build around Arceus-Ghost, with Alakazam picked as the abuser once RegenVests are lured, since with Psystrike it has a good matchup against Chansey/Blissey teams which Arceus-Ghost struggles with. Ting-Lu and Zama form a solid anti-hazards core which is important for both offensive wincons, especially Zam in this team as a revenge-killer. Eternatus helps patch setup, prevent autoloss against TSpikes, and can also assist in crippling AVs. Heatran checks Diancie, Kartana, and SG PDon in a pinch. I think the defensive core was mostly just slapped together without too much coherency, there used to be a Muk instead of Ting-Lu but that mon is so bad. Main bad matchups are offensive Flutter Mane (getting AV with Etern will be very useful) and varying Arceus-Steel sets, of which you could alter a move on Ting-Lu to better handle.
This team has been overall quite consistent in tests and I think matchup spread is overall balanced. It lost the PL game it was played in but that game was very close and could've gone either way with different plays and rng. I don't think its a very easy to pilot team though, there are many times you need to play patiently around the Arceus-Ghost to open opportunities, while other times you need to play aggro with Zam in matchups where the defensive core can't hold up.


Teravolt Garchomp-Mega
I think I saw a bunch of teams just disrespect Garchomp (including our own) so I wanted to build around it, and due to these Levitate Groudons running around I figured Teravolt would be good. I think at the time there was less Ability Shield Fur Coats, I would probably consider more Knock Offs nowadays, maybe on the Chomper itself if it doesn't compromise improofing. Zama is for improofing and I think I wanted something good for Diancie so Heatran makes its reappearance. Everyone was already spamming Ghostceus so Yveltal seemed like something I had the luxury to fit. I do not remember why I wanted Swampert, maybe just as a Fire-resist, similarly I don't remember why I ended with Eleceus (although by the end its the only Arc forme that makes sense).
This is like easily the least trustworthy team here, Chomp is very hard to get things done against FC Shield Zama, and the defensive core is shaky at best. That being said it did manage to win the PL game (although the version that got sent to Quinn was accidentally an older version with Foul Play Rapid Spin on Yveltal). Eleceus still wins games, sometimes.


Offensive Flutter Mane + Fur Coat Solgaleo
This team was actually built around FC Solgaleo, as a set I saw potential in. Solg's intrinsic high HP and bonus weakness allowed a more offensive improof with Flutter Mane. The set could be replaced for MGLO with more resilience to like everything, but the improofing can get more shaky with boosts so I didn't opt for it. Diancie capitalizes on the free improofing from Solg. TingCele is classic double regen core, and since Flutter has Swap I can slack on bad moves like Dragon Tail. Normally I don't like Celesteela but here the Ground resist is useful to have. Fightceus is a luxury that is possible with Solg not consuming Arc slot and checking Kartana, since it compresses everything for the PDon answer.
This team never was played anywhere, although Betticus's Week 5 team borrowed like the same defensive core. It still did well in test games.


Shift Gear Glaive Groudon-Primal + Triple Dive Diancie-Mega
This team concept is not from me because I wouldn't build around SG Glaive Don otherwise, but commissioner wanted that and I like the offensive synergy with physical Diancie with latter checked by FC Steels. Originally I had some other improofing scheme with a FC Solg and a Slowbro, but PSea Steela actually does improof both with Helmet; Surging however is too strong, but the excellent Triple Dive isn't and still KOs PDon after any other move chipping. With a Steela I feel more safe running Korai over Zama, especially desirable for a Water-resist on this team. Ting is Ting, for Ghostceus and removal. Final slot there is free Arc slot, need an improof for Korai, an answer for Diancie, and not be too weak to Flutter, so Poisonceus works nicely while also having enough of an ability slot to greed GaG to sapblock (preferred over Bounce for better Flutter answer). Celesteela is 1 speed to pivot before other Steelas because you really don't want to get Knocked.
This team is also very dubious but better than second team. Defensive core is very sketch and soft to many things, and offensively neither pokemon are that fast outside of Diancie's ESpeed. There still good room for offensive counterplay though and Triple Dive is just huge aura booster.

Side note I know some people have noticed but for BH SSNL we have added some more teams to the top of samples, if there are any teams from OMPL that people think are worth adding please send.

 

[Chessking]

As promised this is the post of my opinions on the 4 Pokemon of interest in this current metagame. This is a long one I tried doing headings to make it bit more easy to read but there is a lot of rambling going on. Due to OMPL not a lot of meta thought sharing happens so people are more secluded and so theres sections covering background information to make sure stuff is on the same page.

First, with respect to my post roughly a month ago, I don't think my opinion has changed: I think that overall the tier is enjoyable to build and play for the most part, and I like this meta over the pre-V-create one.

More concretely, the current meta is obviously quite different from the pre-V-create ban meta. It is more offensive and, in a way, more dynamic. Games are more based around pushing through with own wincons while staving off opponent's wincons, rather than slow grinding and positioning and bringing in slow breakers to grind down teams (with the standout exception of select Blaziken sets you know who they are). The faster pace is obviously due to tier shifting more offensive with more offensive threats particularly ones that cannot be consistently answered long-term at all, but so far I haven't actually found that a bad thing despite losing some of that "defining BH characteristic" of long positioning sequences. It feels more dynamic and exciting to play and watch which can definitely be good for spectator experience considering that has always been a complaint. And at the same time, meta being more offensive doesn't feel more matchup fishy, because I think it has hit a certain point where against teams with unwallable wincons you are likely, assuming good building, having your own unwalled wincons which comes down to plays and making reads etc.

I also think there is much innovation to be made, as evident of some lesser explored sets and Pokemon I gave examples in the previous post. While its certainly perhaps true that new drops have concentrated the selection of Pokemon (score of centralization reflects this), the set variety is still respectable and we do see innovations and shifts week to week, with previously thought to be obsolete attackers like Alakazam and Gren rising quite respectably.

Anyways heres the actual content:


Arceus-Ghost
I'm covering this Pokemon first because it is the only Pokemon I think that is banworthy, and I want to see banned, currently. It is also something that I think can be less intuitive to discuss about. I think Arceus-Ghost holds a unique position in this tier because it is one of the only outstanding threats that has very limited proactive answers. In other words, any answer to Arceus-Ghost tends to be on the passive side. Of the four, it also has the most longevity, making it the hardest to soft check (hence more passive answers), and this is exacerbated by its complete selfproof ability. Lastly, its checks also happen to matchup poorly with the rest of the meta, mostly due to the previously mentioned properties of the Pokemon.
Before I continue, these are the 4 core sets I believe are currently used, along with 3 lesser used but still very viable if not strong sets. In whatever order.

Sets
Spikes (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Recover

MG Setup (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword / Knock Off / Mortal Spin
- Nasty Plot
- Shore Up

Unaware (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword / Mortal Spin
- Take Heart
- Strength Sap

Fur Coat (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword / Mortal Spin / Knock Off
- Take Heart
- Strength Sap / Recover

Magic Bounce (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword / Knock Off
- Take Heart
- Recover

Simple (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Nasty Plot
- Jungle Healing / Recover

Normalize (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Thunder Cage
- Entrainment
- Strength Sap

Between these sets, despite all running Judgment, one of the same 3 "coverage" moves, a setup move, and recovery for the most part, the checks end up varying greatly
MG Spikes is very potent at supporting another offensive wincon, Knock Spikes can almost guarantee progress especially considering its matchup into spinners. Currently the most potent spinners are Fighting-types (famous MG Ghostceus food), PDon (Cloak and AV knocked, low SpD grinded down by Judgment), and certain RegenVests. Of the RegenVests, the Steel-types always are Rapid Spin if they are removal, which get spinblocked by Ghostceus itself and are not the most resilient to Judgment without AV. That leaves Ting-Lu. It is a pretty good answer to this, but unless its the commital double spin variant it needs to contend with mindgames around Ghostceus staying in (for Rapid Spin) or Steel type like Celesteela just spinblocking. Overall though, this set feels more fair usually because it doesn't outright win games due to lack of setup, it generally takes a back seat.

The various setup sets are the ones that we have seen win games countless times. The abilities are each able to deny the various forms of counterplay. First, lets consider what are the common ways to deal with Ghosty currently:
Counterplay options

Bulky RegenVests can switch in, absorb hits and hopefully regen off the damage, and either fire some secondary effect moves, phaze with DTail, or pivot into a teammate that appreciates the safe switch in. Ting-Lu resists Ghost and has good defense for Secret Sword, as well as STAB Knock Off to be more threatening. Registeel doesnt resist Ghost but has Mortal immunity which is equally valuable, and unlike Celesteela and others it actually has bulk to take Judgments properly. These however often cannot win against Ghosty alone, even requiring DTail to actually force it out, and typically rely on U-turning to a teammate.


Utility/SpD Etern is one of the more common answers. It outspeeds, is neutral to Judg and cant be poisoned, has good bulk, and good enough offensive pressure. It also runs Clear Smog viably, which is not counterable by Ghosty outside of pp stalling. The most common set is also Regen, which avoids any recovery PP issues. Other sets like Unaware/Ice Scales have seen use, relying on Take Heart and Thunder Cage to win the 1v1.


Take Heart sets are majority Unaware or Ice Scales, and Kyogre has high SpD and SpA to win the 1v1. However, due to Imposter, such sets are often recoveryless and rely on Lefties + Protect/Leech, and they can end up losing the interaction through prior chip. Spirit Shackle Recover sets are much more safe but are less useful overall.


Ice Scales Cloak or Purifying Salt Flutter along with Mirai are similar to Etern in outspeeding and having enough bulk to eat Judgs. Outspeeding lets them deny setup with Topsy/HSwap/Encore, and Flutter is also able to threaten with the Ghost-STAB. However, non-Ghost STAB Flutters and Mirai don't like taking Judgment still if the Ghosty just chooses to not setup on the Regen.


Band Gren and Scarf Steely Kart are the few sets that reliably outspeed and OHKO Ghosty while not being unviable. Band Gren does need like 30% chip against Fur Coat though, and it is more vulnerable to hazard damage racking up. Needless to say these also require the Ghosty to not be a speed boosting one or Webs to be up.


Yveltal is about as hard of a counter you can find, assuming it has the right moves. It is almost entirely dedicated to answering Ghosty though and offers little outside of it. Simple also threatens to 2HKO it after a boost. Audino theoretically has a good matchup and a legacy in doing so, but it is so passive that it cannot forcefully threaten Ghosty out, and meanwhile gets harassed by likes of Mortal. We have seen several Audinos lose the interaction already.


MG Blobs lose pretty much instantly to Secret Sword, and Chansey pretty much can't get Knocked, but they are pretty much hard counters to Mortal Spin sets, and are good into Normalize sets unless they run Taunt.


Needless to say Spooky Plate Imp is good into non-Knock Off variants. But also needless to say that this is degenerate to bring up as actual counterplay, especially when it doesn't even beat Knock Off.

Now back to the abilities
Abilities and counterplay they deny
Magic Guard: Denies residual damage from Salt Cure and slow Mortal Spin to drain recovery. Also if poisoned denies any attempt of fishing for full paras compared to Take Heart sets.
Unaware: Denies opposing Take Heart as counterplay unless they are also Unaware. Also can deny more offensive counterplay like Shift Gear users.
Fur Coat: Denies revenge killing from likes of Band Gren at full, reduces need to recover against likes of Ting-Lu, and also makes it harder to revenge kill with options like Diancie ESpeed and weaker ones like Knock Korai in conjunction with Salt applied and such.
Magic Bounce: Denies Topsy/Encore.
Simple: Makes it much more difficult to pivot against with RegenVests. Also has one of the best matchups into Yveltal.
Normalize: Denies almost all slower counterplay, only limited to Yveltal Rev Dance, situationally Steelceus Rev Dance, Glare if no Jungle, and the rather rare Bounce/Gag. In particular it completely farms the most common response of going straight RegenVest.

And this is not even considering the moves. Sword being the most consistent by hitting Normal-types like Blobs, but Mortal offering role compression and probably being more effective into Ting and Audino, Knock being a good option still by crippling Chansey and removing AV for self. Take Heart mostly denying status counterplay but the stray NP and its damage boost can punish teams relying on eating +1 hits only. And Jungle on the bottom 2 sets denying the status counterplay as well.

Now it can be argued that in BH this kind of ability for something to bypass checks in some way is normal and expected, but Ghosty is able to do this all while running perfectly viable and common sets. Ghosty is also unique in that its base kit (Judg, sustain, setup) is strong enough and the options completely deny a form of counterplay out of already not a large list of counterplay options (such that the dynamic is reversed such that the checks are instead needing to pick the right move to check it). This is unlike the other forms of bulky setup we have, such as the other Take Heart users. All of them need to contend with Imposter, and are typically forced into Thunder Cage + Strength Sap + STAB sets with little to no variety.

Poison Heal comparison?
A comparison I could make with current Ghosty is its resemblance to Poison Heal Pokemon back then. The counterplay that we are currently seeing are all slow, reactive measures that do not pressure Ghosty enough (Dragon Tail, attrition with passive damage, sufficient counterboosting, Topsy/HSwap/Encore/CSmog, limited revenge-killing options), which can be compared to the counterplay used against Poison Heal (Phazing, Salt Cure, forcing out through ability removal Entrain/WorrySeed/Gastro, sufficient counterboosting, anti setup). They even share the same Imposter dedicated item that doesn't even secure winning the 1v1 (Spooky Plate vs Toxic Orb). Obviously there is only one mon here and without infinite recovery (though Ghostceus has ability slot as a result) and overall it can be argued to be easier to handle, I still find dealing with it quite obnoxious both in the builder and in the game, unless I'm out here running Yveltal or something.

On counterarguments
One of the most common arguments I've seen arguing for Ghosty is that it is balanced and that the meta shifts is what led its checks to be worse and thus making it problematic.

Firstly, by conceding to this kind of argument suggests that people DO recognize and agree that Ghosty is a problematic presence currently, they just believe that it is not a fundamentally broken Pokemon and the fault lies in other parts of the tier.

However, even in a vacuum, if this is the case then it is 100% within tiering philosophy to hit the element that has shown itself to be an issue and not base off hypotheticals of "maybe if we ban these other things then it will be balanced".

The entire reasoning around "it was never problematic before" also doesn't hold any substance in it. Metas change and broken Pokemon become balanced and vice versa. We have plenty of examples this gen: Poison Heal and more than half the mons banlist are elements not banned in other BH tiers. Plus, its not like Ghosty has been completely unquestionable this gen either, since I know I have questioned it at some point (such as a post in Nov 2023). But since we are on that topic I might as well go over what changes post V-create has led to Ghosty to this point compared to its previous, less on the radar status.

Its own development
I'm fairly certain Take Heart sets only really grew in popularity just starting in HPL II and got some traction during the limited games of OMCL. Mortal Spin itself saw only 1 click during HPL. Magic Guard was far and away the most dominant set, Unaware wasn't even a thing experimented until this meta, and the lesser sets like Simple and Norm and physical are still being experimented currently.

Direct tiering changes and effects
All 3 unbans are good matchups for Ghosty and the V-create ban itself is good for Ghosty. The latter being gone is good for the mon that is neutral to it and got blasted by Blaziken V-create, whereas now PDon doesn't have the same nuclear move to threaten it. PDon itself does not have the best matchup into Ghosty due to having middling SpD and no resistance, and unlike Steels it doesn't even boast the poison immunity. Diancie and Kartana are similarly outsped by Ghosty and have even worse SpD, the former not being able to meaningfully threaten it unless severely chipped, and the latter while able to OHKO it, just dies (unlike Blaziken)
252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 271-321 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Blaziken-Mega: 253-298 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Opportunity cost
Arguably (some may disagree), opportunity cost got lower, since Eleceus and Waterceus (the main 2 other Arc formes) both got hit somewhat by PDon arriving, and the latter by V-create ban making Fire resist not as mandatory. This along with the Pokemon getting better has led to what we see today, Arceus-Ghost as an Arceus forme is the 2nd highest usage Pokemon at 56.82%, only after PDon, while boasting a great 60% winrate. The competition is far behind, number 2 forme is Steel at only 19.32% with a abysmal 23.53% WR, Water is 3rd at 6 usage only, and the rest (Ground, Electric, Fighting, Fairy, Flying, Poison) do not break 2.

In fact, what can be argued here is that the rest of the meta has been mostly handleable without requiring the Arceus forme, allowing people to just run Arceus-Ghost as a wincon with some but not a lot of defensive utility.

Viability of checks
Audino was the fourth most used Pokemon during HPL. That fell to 17th during OMCL with 4/40 teams, and now its 0-4 out of 88 teams. This is not something that only happened due to the 3 Pokemon dropping. Yveltal hasn't been used significantly ever. These two are the more universal "answers" to it and neither have been prominent, best you can say is Audino is even worse now I guess.

It is true that some other answers have gotten worse. MG Blobs have seen a consistent decrease in usage since the original meteoric rise to answer Take Heart, and do not appreciate a lot of "anti-passive" stuff like PDon currently, though some have suggested that sets like "Fur Coat Chansey" are decent in the current tier. RegenSteels usage have gone down a bit (though I'm of the opinion they are still extremely good and usage =\= VR here) and both have contributed to more success of Mortal sets. However see the section below.

Flutter Mane usage plummeting isn't an enormous deal though it didn't even run anti Ghostceus sets that often before, and also did not run Ghost STAB nearly as often so it wasn't even that good of a response and moreso for the other Arceus formes.

Checks being specialized
People have argued that the current meta with Pokemon like PDon and Diancie have made it hard to fit the Ghosty checks. What this tells me though is that Ghosty checks are hard to fit == Ghosty checks are not good at role compression to fit on teams == Ghosty checks are specialized in checking Ghosty and not much else. Indeed, as mentioned above pokemon like Yveltal and Audino serve little purpose outside of checking Ghostceus. Sets like MG Blobs are unable to handle any of the other major threats in the tier. The more splashable answers like the ones listed earlier meanwhile all fail to answer it particularly solidly, which is why time and time again we see Ghostceus win the game (see replays below) because checks are so soft.

This same issue does not apply to the other Pokemon people bring up. I'll elaborate in their sections later, but as examples Ability Shield FC can handle both Mold Don and Kartana, Fur Coat Steels or something like Heatran check both Kartana and Diancie, even something like Arceus-Poison can serve as the Fighting-type check while checking Diancie.

So, whats actually happening is people are rather prepping more for the other threats because they can do that while covering something else, and relying on soft checks to deal with Ghostceus because they don't want to go out of their way to handle it and end up opening up to more threats. Whether this is correct or not teambuilding in this meta is up to interpretation, you can certainly argue that with the amount of Ghostceus that are being used (again, 2nd usage) and the number of occurrences it is winning games (again, replays below) that perhaps people should be doing the latter more. But the important point is that just because PDon Diancie Kart and friends are new does not mean that Ghosty gets more leeway. Its checks are more specialized, which mark it as a more problematic presence.

On a side note, these points I have made happen to be some of the same points I made years back for Slaking, where its checks were terrible into the rest of the tier, don't even do their job that well, and the Pokemon gets many opportunities to do what it does. They even share a similarity where counterplay against it tends to be worse into Imposter and vice versa. It is also worth noting that the same "specialized checks" argument were made for Blaziken in the previous meta since FC Dragons sucked into Garchomp, and no one was calling for Garchomp to be banned so that people can answer Blaziken with FC Dragons.

The TLDR for this section is that don't blame the rest of the meta for its problems or bring up past, basically completely different metas where it wasn't as problematic.

To end this section, I went through all the current OMPL replays and picked out games where Ghosty either won the game by putting in work, put in enormous work directly towards winning (such as claiming multiple), or would've won the game if not for things like speed tie (which btw is like another big point, people are outright having games decided on Ghostceus speed ties relatively frequently). This means I did not include games where it won the game but the game was won anyways.

Replays

rightclicker vs GhastlyPixie. Take Heart Ghosty wins as soon as Etern was dead Turn 3, nothing else is remotely able to handle it.
SammyCe123 vs damflame 3. We have Take Heart Ghosty matching against MG Topsy Yveltal and it still manages to take down a Bounce Palkia with it trying to sapblock.
RoFnA vs FlamPoke. MG Ghosty with Knock reveals NP out of nowhere and forces a kill on Fairyceus which probably could've won due to player having to make proactive call with Etern PP being an issue.
Ivar57 vs rightclicker. Unaware Ghosty pretty much wins on preview because opposing Yveltal has no recovery.
pdt vs GhastlyPixie. After escaping the early game FC Ghosty spinblocks a Ting-Lu, poisons it while forcing it to Dragon Tail every time as the only counterplay, and wins the game.
TTTech vs SammyCe123. FC Ghosty thats not even Take Heart wins as soon as Eternatus dies, and if it was Take Heart there's good chance it wins that interaction due to Strength Sap on opposing.
damflame 3 vs Betticus IV. Simple Ghostceus capitalizes on 2 risky turns (Stone Axe Regi, sacking the only counterplay of Etern), claims one immediately, and wins the game on the spot if not losing to speed tie (but still taking another down while staying alive).
Ivar57 vs RoFnA. Unaware Ghosty punishes a greedy Topsy Waterceus going for Take Heart war and would've won the game on spot if it got the 3/8 roll against Chansey. It proceeds to win the endgame with teammates helping PP stall the opposing Arc.
Quinn vs rightclicker. Unaware Ghosty has exactly one counterplay in Moldy Don which it can freely Poison and go to the wall in the back, which allows it to win despite said Don getting a Lunar Dance. Opposing Shield Dust Ghosty is cool but it never should've been severely threatening with Clear Smog Etern if Quinn knew about mechanic.
QT vs pdt. MG Ghosty has like no good counterplay and was completely winning if it won the speed tie.
SammyCe123 vs GigaBytes7. Tidy Up Ghosty has minimal counterplay, being only temporarily stopped by Red Card PDon. Without PP concerns and losing predicts due to trying to preserve PP it won the game.
quojova vs QT. Unaware Ghosty is almost able to win the game on preview, or at least force sacks to slow down the win in conjunction with Salt Cure. It should've won the game if it switched out at all in the end.
SammyCe123 vs Betticus IV. Ghosty is matched against Audino, and it renders it useless by poisoning it and removing rocks. It then forces in the passive Ice Scales Steelceus which takes turns to actually cause meaningful damage against it.
Jojen vs XxLazzerpenguinxX. Take Heart Ghosty wins against weakened Scales Take Heart Kyogre and would've won if it got one of the last turns correct (or played more patiently provided crit avoided).

Mega Diancie
3500 words later we are finally here, so I guess I'll be brief for these. My current stance on Diancie is that too much of its potential is potential and is based on theory and on paper, and in practice it does not play out that way. This is also its biggest issue, it has not been able to prove its potential in like a single OMPL game. Unlike Ghostceus which has single handedly won games, I haven't seen Diancie win a game outright (the Hallward vs Treeko game doesn't really count because it was worthless while the Steelceus was alive and that only died to a misplay).

Going into this tour and in the initial week or two, my viewpoint was that once people have started using the good sets and built good teams with it, and then it would prove to be banworthy. Weeks passed and OMPL is entering playoffs and this has yet to happen. Even my own team has not been able to make it work as we thought it would work out.


A lot of the menacing calcs for Diancie come with Life Orb attached. Life Orb is a viable set, but it is far harder to use in practice, since between Life Orb recoil and existing timers from hazards it makes it much easier to play around and soft check. I think Life Orb really only fits on offense structures where the turn timer is a lot less relevant. If you are using Diancie on Balance, you should probably not be using Life Orb, since you want that relative longevity to be able to grind through checks. LO on Balance only makes your matchups more polarizing, if they were weak you can win harder, but if they have hard answers you lose harder. Tends to be better to try to patch weaker matchups.

As a result the actual calcs are more based around Pixie Plate, and in occasions other items like Leftovers or Wide Lens. These numbers are noticeably less impressive due to lack of 1.3x on coverage moves.

Oh and Sheer Force isn't good. It has a list of cool calcs, then you load into it with a team that doesn't check it well and you realize it 2HKOs stuff but doesn't OHKO stuff and has no entries. I had this brought into an Etern and it did 60 to me. Pixilate already can break well and you get way more burst power and priority which gives your team room to fit more support to help it break more!

Hard to use
In terms of Diancie's performance, I think it can be said that it is one of the more skill demanding Pokemon in this meta. Using it poorly gives a very low floor while its potential is really high. I think this is reflected in OMPL, its usage is not as high as one might expect based on its theoretical potential and utility, probably because people want to use easy to use and click Pokemon. I also think that a skill demanding Pokemon is a good presence, it rewards good players, good builds, and good plays, which is something we want to see.

Not due to being heavily prepped against
Also, for anyone who would claim that Diancie isn't winning games because people are overprepping, I'm not going to go over the replays again but I've watched every game and I'm fairly confident we have made multiple statements during game that X's team is weak to Diancie. People are not actually prepping hard for Diancie because they aren't even going out to look and experiment with harder checks (see previous post on some sets I've ran for it, I'm still the only user of Heatran on teams, Solg brought by dam once etc). You can also just tell by the number of Celesteela usage over Registeel, because that mon is so much worse at absorbing Boomburst. Arceus-Steel, one of its checks, is even sporting a catastrophic winrate, yet Diancie's winrate is only within even margins.

The only actual specific counter people have innovated is this rise of Psychic Surge offense. But Diancie isn't smothering other offense structures because this is evidently not the only way to build offense either. Offense has been consistently popular this OMPL and we've seen plenty of other teams like weather teams, Screens teams, hazard lead teams, webs teams.

All this is to say that Diancie seems to unable to convert games it isn't hard checked in and its not because its getting targeted. This also goes back to the hard to use point. People aren't even that willing to bring it despite teams all not being exceptionally sturdy to it.

I do think Diancie still has that potential to prove itself to be banworthy, but until that actually happens like with Ghostceus, I'm not convinced that it is action-worthy.


Primal Groudon
There's quite a few points to cover about this Pokemon. PDon is certainly a very centralizing Pokemon, it has rushed to number 1 usage with a comfortable gap over number 2. But to put it out there first I don't think its problematic right now, and I also personally subjectively enjoy its presence but this is not going to be a main point I use. I will also try to insert responses to the city post where possible since she is one of the few forum posts made since.

Overusage
I'm of the opinion that PDon is overused and that people are sometimes adding it to teams on autopilot when it isn't actually a good fit. People usually build around offensive sets, so that part is like whatever, although I think SG Mold set is overbrought as well, its prepped for and it doesn't win even against checks like SG Blaze could, and even if it has no answers people have been able to outplay it and survive. Its also a good inclusion in like every offense team, but on balance teams for its utility sets, I think they're honestly pretty overrated.

The best and most common utility set is easily Levitate. What does this set actually offer to balance teams? With Ability Shield it can check standard Mold Don sets since they dont really run Water move, but more common is running Cloak for Imposter matchup and beating opposing LeviDon, ok, very good. But what else, it doesn't check Diancie well since Boomburst just cleaves through even if they lack Water move, Kartana also easily rolls over with either Tinted or setup Grass/Water move, Ghostceus is obviously not checked. Even going down the list, Etern Palk Flutter Zam Kyogre are all special attackers with a hard hitting STAB, Gren is Gren, and Chomp is hitting hard with just Glaive. The only mon is Steelceus. There are also issues with AV PDon, with its lacklustre SpD and still vulnerability to poison. The cause of this fits in another section, but the point here is that I've not found it that impressive to run. And as stats show, people are making teams without PDon and having perfectly good success (51.75% winrate). I myself have built 3 teams without it and the 4th only has it due to it being the main concept.

Centralization and pushing stuff out
This is true. Meta has gotten noticeably more centralized at least mons-wise (hard to evaluate sets-wise), and it very much could be due to the additions of PDon and Diancie. I do think though that there is some degree of OMPL bias, since BH Open, which was also post V-create and even has bias from people using the same teams and samples, had a degree of centralization more comparable to before. There are factors for OMPL including returning players and players being more safe and conservative. I also think even basing on OMPL stats the centralization isn't close to an alarming level, and even within the tour there have been trends and development of the less used Pokemon.

In terms of what city has brought up about PDon edging Pokemon out of the meta, you can definitely say this is true and I did mention prior with all the common Pokemon that do fine into it i.e. survivorship bias, and city does list some examples. I do however think that these Pokemon are also edged out because they fail to bring enough to counteract this weakness. As a first example, Zamazenta and Koraidon are popular despite the sky high usage of Ghostceus which is dangerous to give turns to, and theres additional presences like Etern, Diancie, and Zam too. For a closer example, Steelceus sets (though granted its WR is a bit dubious). For the examples she listed, Ho-Oh competes with Groudon and gets collateraled by the Water moves, making it difficult to check anything (because if you really wanted to punish PDon entries you can run Flip or Knock + Mortal. Zacian's typing has no defensive benefits and there are more useful and less passive fast mons that can neutral type Ghosty (such as Etern or Flutter). The offensive fires and fairys she mentioned also suffer from meta's prep against fire and fairy due to offensive PDon and Diancie. I also think meta shifts naturally lead to Pokemon and type coverages being worse, we just happen to have a major one.

Lastly in terms of shutting low BST mons out, its unfortunate especially for players who like to innovate with those kinds of pokemon and sets. But at the same time its not something that ultimately should demand tiering, especially since lower BST mons have really never had presence in usage anyways (its like usually 1-3 in a PL or something).

Removal and item situation
Personally, I've enjoyed the addition of PDon in the hazards game; I did not like the previous metas situation and thought hazards were notably stronger, with removal being annoying to fit considering you want more than 1. PDon's addition helps swing the game more into balance and I think the current balance is very good.

I think its important to note that there is a difference between PDon is very good at removing hazards and PDon is very good at keeping hazards off. The former is what is currently the case, while the latter could be something that would be more problematic. PDon doesn't actually match up all that well into setters. Stone Axe users are predominantly Regens that run Knock and Groudon often hates losing item, and other hazard users can... simply be run on sets that actually have good matchup. As an example, Treeko and Betticus both ran hazards (Webs and Spikes) on Levitate Cloak Groudon itself, because it has a good matchup against Mortal variants of itself. HO leads have seen Kyogre be the hazard lead. Spikes Flutter is probably still fine if you can afford having Spikes last since Ghost STAB heavily punishes PDon.

Basically, if teams wanted to try to have hazards stay up or at least get its worth, they should be able to through good building. We have seen such teams show up in OMPL too, whether offense or a dedicated stack team (that team has dubious aspects but I don't think its in the hazard setting part). PDon itself isn't even super hazard resilient, its rocks neutral and needs levitate for the rest. To remove rocks against Stone Axe users it doesnt particularly like switching in it needs to take a round of rocks in the end.

This also ties in with city's comment about item situation. I think the improved removal situation of this meta actually counterbalances a lot of the would be problems. This better removal has made Boots less critical of an item compared to before when Boots was on like every other mon, and I personally like the dynamic now of picking items on mons that have the flexibility, and I like the variety of defensive items that are in the meta, between Lefties Cloak Boots AShield and even ones like Helmet. I also think an item like Ability Shield, at least in the current meta state, is actually healthy since it covers both Mold Breaker and Sunsteel and Entrainment in a pinch. Much healthier than Utility Umbrella.


Kartana
Kartana actually despite being the least claimed problematic mon has the best winrate. Consensus seems to be that this Pokemon is super fine rn so this is brief.

Good mon, great breaker and it fits both as a breaker on balance and a wincon on offense. Still very much exploration to do between ability choice and item+moves to be made I believe, and there is potential for this mon to break itself similar to Diancie. As of right now though he looks fineish.


Unburden
This actually could be on the radar. There's been a lot of unburden stuff going around and I think its like one of the causes of less Imposters (because outside of Ghosty Imposter has a great matchup vs offensive stuff). However it is A. still under exploration beyond the simple TorchSpray ones, and B. its almost exclusively on offense and if I'm a ban Ghosty stance and Ghosty seems huge usage on offense I would want to see how that plays out for the style first.

6k words i need help (but also ha lordbox one upped)

 

[Akira]

Let's free Mega Gengar
Yes I'm serious

It seems we won't be rid of Primal Groudon this generation, I don't think there's long enough left in the generation for its negative effects on the meta to really overcome how much people seem to be enjoying it, and council seems quite rigid on the matter (Although I do appreciate Chessking's post adressing the arguments showing he is at least listening). So lets operate under the assuption that we won't be going back to the old style of BH, and we will be keeping Pdon, Diancie and Kart.

So while my personal tiering opinions favor turning back to the pre-vc ban situation but with vc banned. If we decide to embrace the new direction BH is going: what do I wanna see for it?
1) I don't want Ghostceus to be banned, it provides a lot to the tier and is mostly a mon that eats up loser balances.
2) I want offense to be not only good but interesting, which the current situation railroads into only a handful of viable breakers or psysurge to bypass Diancie's incredible pressure against fastmons.
3) I like Mega Gengar (it is my favorite pokemon)

Freeing Mega Gengar would provide a lot to the current state the tier is in
It gives us that is reliably unwallable but has a lot of set diversity, requires getting turns right, and has a statline that makes it easy to RK but still outpacing Arceus. This is mostly a positive if we go with Chessking's above argument that the tier is becoming more about positioning your unwallable breaker vs theirs and winning faster, Gengar isn't good at just sweeping games outright since it lacks any viable speed boosting tech bar unburden, and choiced sets need to get turns right or risk completely ceding momentum to a Ting Lu or normal-type.
It gives us a second breaker that reliably outspeeds and ohkoes Ghostceus after Greninja (offensive flutter is a little weak) which should make pivot balances a lot more resilient into the mon.
It has a resistance to Pixispeed, making it a mon that actually outspeeds Arceus that doesnt die to Diancie, we don't actually have any of those in the tier unless you count Eternatus, which I don't because it is not an offensive threat and cannot easily kill Diancie. This in turn may actually give Flutter a stronger niche, since it becomes the ghost that has a better speed tier, bulk and secondary stab in exchange for much reduced power, and Diancie won't be as splashable as an anti-fastmon tool.
Also gives us a second viable Poison to make Tspikes less of an effective fish.

I don't think freeing Gengar is the way towards the best possible meta, I still think we should be banning more to get there. But if BH is already leaning this way, and the end of the gen isn't too far off, why not commit to it? Slaking/Gigas are also mons that could be freed under this logic but I don't like them as much so I'm not posting about them (although the package deal of adding more normals at the same time as gar is quite nice isn't it). Borderline MMX, but I don't think I'm quite willing to go there.

 

[Treeko928]

Reserving for my 200th post, about my thoughts on the BH meta coming soon tm

 

[Alathreon]

Hello, I just noticed that my stupid Metagross-Mega set ended up as the Showdown Usage set in the calculator, which is very funny.
So I might as well share my team.


Pride (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Take Heart
- Judgment
- Knock Off / Secret Sword


Lust (Greninja-Ash) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Wicked Blow
- Healing Wish
- Trick


Sloth (Dondozo) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Topsy-Turvy
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss


Envy (Celesteela) @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 164 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Destiny Bond
- Trick
- Encore
- U-turn


Wrath (Kyurem-Black) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Collision Course


Greed (Metagross-Mega) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Steelworker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Bullet Punch
- Sunsteel Strike
- Tidy Up

This is a bulky offense based on physical spam and constant pressure.
This is my first ever message here, so I hope I explain things well.

Greninja-Ash uses a classic sniper banded set, but without Flower Trick which would cause problem to Dondozo, and instead Trick to cripple an opposing pokemon, and Healing Wish to give one more chance to any other of my pokemons. His role is either to make holes on the opposing team, or sacrifice itself, by tricking a Fur Coat user and then using Healing Wish.

Kyurem-Black is a classic Swords Dance Refrigerate setup-sweeper with Collision Course to do enormous damage against steel types and win its duel against any Greninja-Ash set (well except tinted lens specs water spout under rain, but even then, extreme speed can reduce the power of water spout for the rest of the battle).

Metagross-Mega has a nasty setup sweeper set with Tidy Up for hazard removal, after just one Tidy Up, it can OHKO anything that isn't a resist or fur coat, and 2HKO anything that isn't a dual resist. Sunsteel Strike is for handling Fur Coat pokemons, or rare Sturdy ones. Sunsteel Strike also allow to cheese a lot of team because many team would think that I wouldn't have a second stab. And finally, Gigaton Hammer + Sunsteel Strike is also great against Burning Bulwark, since if you use Gigaton Hammer on the turn of this move, you would be safe since it's a non contact move, and then, you can use Sunsteel Strike the turn later which would be safe (unless they attempt the 50% roll). As for Bullet Punch, it is mostly used for doing quite a lot of cheap damage to many pokemons, and especially Flutter Mane to which it does 84 - 99.3%, guarranted OHKO after rocks.
The reason why this pokemon has no coverage is because its steel attacks already do so much damage, and any taunt or electric coverage could beat Dondozo.

Then there is Dondozo, its main role is to improof my 3 physical attackers as well as most of the physical attackers of this tier, it can easily handle Kyurem-Black no matter the amount of Swords Dances and can handle Metagross-Mega up to +3 attack where it will start to be a bit complicated. It can also profit from the downtime of tanking the attacks of Chansey or any physical attacker by putting rocks. Finally, against a team with no Chansey or not much physical attacker, it can be sacrified by spamming Topsy Turvy on any special pokempon which would have the idea to setup on it.

Celesteela is both an emergency safeguard and a slow pivot to give me back momentum. It can also trick its lagging tail to cripple any fast pokemon or any pokemon that setup in speed. Its 164 SpD is a stat that I hesitated to put, but it allows it to be OHKO'd by scarf Kyogre-Primal under rain, so it can use Destiny Bond safely.

Arceus-Ghost is my ace, it improofs itself, Celesteela, Dondozo perfectly. It has a regular setup sweeper set with magic bounce. Magic Bounce is really useful since my whole team is physical, I heavily depend on it to beat Strength Sap spam at the first place.
I usually use Knock Off or Secret Sword (I guess Triple Arrows could also work). The weird stat distribution (min attack, max defense) is so when Chansey copy Arceus, its Knock Off does minimum damage to my Arceus at the first place. Its max defense also allow to shrug of Knock Off fairly well since it's my Knock Off absorber. Knock Off has the imense advantage of Knocking most items offs, but also specifically allow Arceus Ghost to win even against Assault Vest users by knocking them off and then spamming Take Heart, it also allow it to knock off chansey evioite so it can actually take much more damage, and it finally also allow it to win against the very rare imposter spooky plate blissey.
As for Secret Sword, it's because Knock Off set just can't do anything against any normal type, especially Blissey (Secret Sword isn't really useful against Meloeta or Audino-Mega since Knock Off actually does a lot of damage to Meloeta, and Secret Sword isn't super effective against the two).

 

[cityscapes]

honestly it doesn't even feel like ghostceus got any better with the tiering changes, more that everything else got worse. as i alluded to in my previous post, one of the main effects of freeing pdon was that the ground/fire/electric/fairy coverage complex got broken up. previously these were some of the most consistent offensive types in the game, you could run two and expect to hit most things, or three and expect to hit everything, but now levi pdon walls all four and is common & threatening enough that you can't afford to skip on coverage for it. so we see the proliferation of random water move, but since water is such a terrible coverage type, only luxury superweapons like diancie or cb flip turn users can afford to fit it. the only consistent progress you can expect to get is with those and with the other coverage complex, ghost/fighting. so here we arrive at ghostceus.

it's...fine i guess. it feels a lot worse to use because supreme shitters such as ashgren and zam are coming back into style and you have to build/play annoyingly passively to punish them. between those and every regenvest in the game hassling you, it feels like you're always on the back foot against the superweapons i mentioned above, you have to make conscious efforts to get a position as extended or simplified that ghostceus can do it in the end. its still a good mon because its one of the only guys that can meaningfully exploit the holes in the shitty pivot balance structures everyones forced to run. i probably would not vote to ban it because its marginally less agonizing to use than choiced attackers and i think the slower structures it just eats up are completely irredeemable regardless, stall has been dead the entire gen for more reasons than ghostceus.

norm ghosty is lowkey busted but thats just a norm thing it can do that stuff sometimes, if ghosty went i would do that shit with giratina lunala or flutter and there'd be 1 less counter (also the esper wing set would get better). honestly though i don't think you can take tiering action on norm in a judg + arc + ashield gen without admitting you've failed as a council

there are also other type coverage complexes like ice/fighting/electric/water, flying/fighting/ground, shit like that, but compared to diancie and kart you just aren't hitting the numbers on your stabs & both iceus and flyceus are weak to rocks so you have to run mg. sucks.

i don't care about offense it's horribly inconsistent. unburden ban also feels like an admission of defeat. "we aren't ready for offense to be good yet" when it was fine before, surely at that point you have to just put the fries in the bag and acknowledge the whole thing as a failed experiment