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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter Chessking345
- Start date
Things:
Is Bitter Blade not supposed to work with Triage? I had a tera-fire Calyrex-FireIce set running, but if Bitter Blade isn't affected by Triage then that sucks. It would kinda make sense as Comfey isn't in the game, but is :( nonetheless.
- Pop Bomb is honestly not the worst thing in the world. Its a lot easier to smack Rocky Helmet on a mon, imo, than have to improof your entire team. Even if you don't, it isnt like you're without options. Pop Bomb will have a good chance to miss, and if not, is sacrificing some degree of power (Wide Lens/No Guard in place of a boosting ability). If it tries to do more gimmicky things like King's Rock, it sacrifices both accuracy and power, creating a gigantic reliance on King's Rock that imo isn't consistent enough to warrant a ban. Dont think this is any better or worse than V-Create is in terms of power, the most worrying thing about it imo is it being able to be multiple types due to -ate abilities.
- Shed Tail is too easy. In tandem with Prankster, Regenerator, and/or bulky pokemon, this gives setup a little bit too much in my opinion. Shell Smash being banned may change this bug I'm not totally convinced.
- Contrary is still too strong. Unawares aren't easy to get at the moment, and lacking the general anti-setup tools only makes this more powerful. Always makes at minimum a big dent in an opposing team.
- Tera is fun! It definitely can be a little hard to tell what Tera your opponent is using, if any, but I think generally it makes the matches more fun, if a little less predictable.
- Rage Fist & Last Respects are both a little over the top. Surviving hits isn't always a given, but seeing as you only need 1-2 flr Rage Fist to be good and a primary user of that move is moderately bulky, it becomes overpowering too fast. Last Respects is a little similar, being a little too easy of an activation to get even as much as useable strength.
Is Bitter Blade not supposed to work with Triage? I had a tera-fire Calyrex-
- Pop Bomb is honestly not the worst thing in the world. Its a lot easier to smack Rocky Helmet on a mon, imo, than have to improof your entire team. Even if you don't, it isnt like you're without options. Pop Bomb will have a good chance to miss, and if not, is sacrificing some degree of power (Wide Lens/No Guard in place of a boosting ability). If it tries to do more gimmicky things like King's Rock, it sacrifices both accuracy and power, creating a gigantic reliance on King's Rock that imo isn't consistent enough to warrant a ban. Dont think this is any better or worse than V-Create is in terms of power, the most worrying thing about it imo is it being able to be multiple types due to -ate abilities.
- Shed Tail is too easy. In tandem with Prankster, Regenerator, and/or bulky pokemon, this gives setup a little bit too much in my opinion. Shell Smash being banned may change this bug I'm not totally convinced.
- Contrary is still too strong. Unawares aren't easy to get at the moment, and lacking the general anti-setup tools only makes this more powerful. Always makes at minimum a big dent in an opposing team.
- Tera is fun! It definitely can be a little hard to tell what Tera your opponent is using, if any, but I think generally it makes the matches more fun, if a little less predictable.
- Rage Fist & Last Respects are both a little over the top. Surviving hits isn't always a given, but seeing as you only need 1-2 flr Rage Fist to be good and a primary user of that move is moderately bulky, it becomes overpowering too fast. Last Respects is a little similar, being a little too easy of an activation to get even as much as useable strength.
Holy shit do I want Shed Tail banned. It's ubsurd how much can be done off a bulky regen mon. I've been running a jungle healing/shed tail regen Zama-C to just shit out V-Create's on a Arceus-Fire with Orichialum Pulse. Whenever I play it just feels like a matter of getting him in and reducing the amount of hazards on the field. Contrary is def strong but idk. If spectral theif was still in play I wouldn't have an issue but it feels mandatory to run an imposter mon, even if I hate running imposter and never did last gen out of sheer spite of the ability, I have to in order to beat the contrary and simple spam I'm seeing. I like the new gen of bhackmons but it needs a lot of refining with making offense as strong as a defense lacking core enforcer, hazard control with court change being added back in, and with new spinning moves like Mortal Spin being great utility for offense and feel great to use, also feel like trash to go into.
Random note, I thought that Rage Fist was banned? Quick ban from the council this morning at 2:03 posted by lazzerpenguin (not putting his whole name in I forget the addons). Last Respects is also filthy but the amount of normal types right now makes it bearable, Slaking, and Meloetta have been seeing a lot of use it seems as well as Arceus no type.
someone has just informed me of this, but despite bitter blade being a healing move, the flag for the triage interaction hasn't been implemented by game freak. since PS sticks to in-game mechanics, this basically means bitter blade won't interact with triage unless they patch it.
Yes, Sleep Moves Clause only bans moves that induce sleep. Moves with a chance to cause sleep have to be banned separately.
For context, I believe this was set up (generations now at this point) due to the fact that Relic Song was the only move with a chance to cause sleep and it was a signature move connected to Meloetta-P’s forme change so keeping that free felt important to the tiers that use it (i believe BW OU uses it). This gen does set up an unprecedented situation now that we have multiple of those moves but banning them separately should suffice if necessary (i havent had the chance to play SV BH yet so i have no opinion), I’m not sure adding them to the clause is a possibility due to the above.
overview post of the new stuff relevant to BH:
A TALE OF HOW YOU'RE ABOUT TO LOSE (shed tail) - 50% HP sacrificed to switch and give the mon coming in a substitute.
this move is kind of busted. it enables offensive strats so ridiculously easily and shed tail + regen is stupid given how much progress it makes as opposed to the cost on the user. you cah shed tail with basically any fat mon, go to a booster and there's a very high chance you can just pick up a kill there and then.
FILLET OF FISH (fillet away) - cuts HP by 50% of maximum to give +2 atk/spa/spe.
personally i think this is just worse drum and smash. worse than smash because you're a lot easier to pick off/ imposter is a lot safer against you/you can realistically only use it once, worse than drum because you lack highly explosive killpower.
GCSE BIOLOGY (protosynthesis) - when entering with booster energy or in sun (elec terrain for quark drive), highest stat is boosted by 30%, 50% if speed.
i don't think this will see much use. imposter doesn't copy the protosynthesis boost, so theoretically you can use booster energy + proto with speed as your highest stat on drum sets to still keep the speed boost after being hazed, however i think unburden is better in every instance here. using with stats other than speed is pointless bc ruin abilities simply exist.
PRAYER BEADS BRACELET, A BALANCED ADD-ON (ruin abilities) - cut an opponent's stat by 25%. tablets cuts attack, swords cuts defense, vessel cuts sp.atk, beads cuts sp.def.
since these lower opposing stats by 25%, this correlates to a "33% boost" to your stat (ie. using beads means you deal 33% more special damage):
these are now the de-facto highest damage boosting abilities since they are boost every move on phys/spec without exception. the only exceptions to this are gorilla tactics, orichalcum pulse (bc it both sets sun and boosts the stat by 30%) and hadron engine (same as pulse but eterrain instead). adapt has the same boost on STABs but crucially doesn't reveal itself, so is better suited for mixed / mono-STAB / attackers that enjoy their sets being hidden.
DEFINITELY NOT ENGLAND (ori pulse and hadron engine) - sets sun and boosts atk by 30% / eterrain and spa by 30% respectively.
if you're using fire or electric nukes (like band zac-c for example), these are the best things to use for them, as you're effectively getting either a 1.95x boost or 1.69x boost depending on whichever one you use. pretty simple.
ME WHEN CLASH OF CLANS (ting-lu)
this thing is ridiculously bulky. 155/130/80 bulk makes it, if i'm not mistaken, probably the bulkiest mon ever. on top of being an ultra-fat ghost resist, it also has ground type for a stonewall to miraidon completely free of charge, and to top it all off even has dark as it's primary typing so you can run revdance to beat normalize caly if you have no counters. base 45 speed also makes it a great slow pivot. overall i expect this to see a lot of use just based on bulk alone.
DIEGO FROM ICE AGE (chien-pao)
this mon is a gen too late. it's basically weavile but base 135 speed, which would have been great last gen since SD sets would outpace and thus could destroy etern and zamac, however this is significantly less valuable here due to the presence of calyrex and zacian (on top of etern and zamac just generally being lower value too). unlike other fast but frail mons like base zama, it has 0 bulk with which to effective use strength sap, and despite life orb + swords of ruin basically ensuring you OHKO something if you hit it super-effectively, it's not strong enough to threaten basically any neutral target like slaking or neutral arc forms.
BIG BOZO (dondozo)
slightly less bulky than lu-ting (do you finally get the joke? looting? clash of clans? do you want a blue peter badge or something?) but comes with water type, effectively meaning you can run a fc water without needing waterceus. taunt slaking is everywhere rn so i think dragon tail/circle throw and just hope they aren't the right tera to autowin is necessary, otherwise i think this'll mostly be like last gen suicune where it just sits there and eats hits really well but doesn't do much else.
HE GOT CHINGED ON HIS ONES (ceaseless edge and stone axe) - these set spikes/rocks respectively if they hit. this effect is blocked by covert cloak.
new ways for defensive mons to make progress, with hazards that can't be bounced or taunted and that can be used by regenvest mons. ceaseless breaking caly-s's substitutes is big and just being able to pressure defensive mons for staying in against your defensive mons is really strong.
AVERAGE WARZONE PLAYER (mortal spin) - poison type, poisons the target and clears hazards if successful.
spin alternative which makes more progress but sets up the user less (no speed boost) and is blocked by steel types which are arguably more common than ghosts. i don't think it'll see massive use, especially when the offensive meta cools down and people start running -atespin again, however it's a nice other option and, as a regenvest user, you can punish your spinblocker more effectively with mortal spin than you can with rapid spin, as the main steels hate nuzzle but giratina doesn't mind too much.
GIANT HOOVER (tidy up) - ddance + defog, but also clears substitute on both sides.
this is interesting as a hazard clearing option as it's defog that you can use offensively, however i also don't really know what is ever going to use this as basically every ddancer in gen 8 either sets spikes or wants them. from a strictly hazard clearing perspective, defog is better because it has more PP and being blocked by not having a target is not too relevant in BH, however prank tidy up being self-targeting means darks can't block it which might be relevant in some situations. i can see the use case for some stuff that's like this, however said stuff isn't exceptionally relevant or is illegal at the current time.
OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A WMD (population bomb) - 10 hits of 20 base power. amount of hits calculated the same way as triple axel (90% accuracy check for each hit, must land the check to consider the next hit), makes contact.
this move has some really big damage potential, just based on the fact that it's 200 base power at max. it's definitely flawed despite this massive value, such as needing coil or wide lens to be actually reliable and instantly killing the user if they connect with helmet, however there are workarounds and it is used on some incredibly dangerous mons to good effect. most commonly it's seen on coil pixilate zacian with pads, however stuff like choice band normals and king's rock also exists.
YOU NEED A HGV LICENCE FOR THAT (gigaton hammer) - 160BP steel move, can't be used twice in a row.
this move gives zac-c another excellent option (as if it needed any) and is mostly just used as generic STAB to have on a set if you want to whack something really hard. it's excellent for offensive steels and the only good physical steel move since anchor and sunsteel have been removed, however zac-c is the only offensive steel currently. doesn't really mesh well with band sets tho.
there's also generic new STABs for certain types like dragon (glaive rush), fairy (magical torque), ground (headlong rush), steel (make it rain), fighting (collision course/combat torque), electric (electro drift), normal (hyper drill) but i don't think these are worth mentioning in their own sections as glaive, make it rain and headlong rush are all drawback moves and the rest are just generic STABs with high BP and decent secondary effects.
A TALE OF HOW YOU'RE ABOUT TO LOSE (shed tail) - 50% HP sacrificed to switch and give the mon coming in a substitute.
this move is kind of busted. it enables offensive strats so ridiculously easily and shed tail + regen is stupid given how much progress it makes as opposed to the cost on the user. you cah shed tail with basically any fat mon, go to a booster and there's a very high chance you can just pick up a kill there and then.
FILLET OF FISH (fillet away) - cuts HP by 50% of maximum to give +2 atk/spa/spe.
personally i think this is just worse drum and smash. worse than smash because you're a lot easier to pick off/ imposter is a lot safer against you/you can realistically only use it once, worse than drum because you lack highly explosive killpower.
GCSE BIOLOGY (protosynthesis) - when entering with booster energy or in sun (elec terrain for quark drive), highest stat is boosted by 30%, 50% if speed.
i don't think this will see much use. imposter doesn't copy the protosynthesis boost, so theoretically you can use booster energy + proto with speed as your highest stat on drum sets to still keep the speed boost after being hazed, however i think unburden is better in every instance here. using with stats other than speed is pointless bc ruin abilities simply exist.
PRAYER BEADS BRACELET, A BALANCED ADD-ON (ruin abilities) - cut an opponent's stat by 25%. tablets cuts attack, swords cuts defense, vessel cuts sp.atk, beads cuts sp.def.
since these lower opposing stats by 25%, this correlates to a "33% boost" to your stat (ie. using beads means you deal 33% more special damage):
DEFINITELY NOT ENGLAND (ori pulse and hadron engine) - sets sun and boosts atk by 30% / eterrain and spa by 30% respectively.
if you're using fire or electric nukes (like band zac-c for example), these are the best things to use for them, as you're effectively getting either a 1.95x boost or 1.69x boost depending on whichever one you use. pretty simple.
ME WHEN CLASH OF CLANS (ting-lu)
this thing is ridiculously bulky. 155/130/80 bulk makes it, if i'm not mistaken, probably the bulkiest mon ever. on top of being an ultra-fat ghost resist, it also has ground type for a stonewall to miraidon completely free of charge, and to top it all off even has dark as it's primary typing so you can run revdance to beat normalize caly if you have no counters. base 45 speed also makes it a great slow pivot. overall i expect this to see a lot of use just based on bulk alone.
DIEGO FROM ICE AGE (chien-pao)
this mon is a gen too late. it's basically weavile but base 135 speed, which would have been great last gen since SD sets would outpace and thus could destroy etern and zamac, however this is significantly less valuable here due to the presence of calyrex and zacian (on top of etern and zamac just generally being lower value too). unlike other fast but frail mons like base zama, it has 0 bulk with which to effective use strength sap, and despite life orb + swords of ruin basically ensuring you OHKO something if you hit it super-effectively, it's not strong enough to threaten basically any neutral target like slaking or neutral arc forms.
BIG BOZO (dondozo)
slightly less bulky than lu-ting (do you finally get the joke? looting? clash of clans? do you want a blue peter badge or something?) but comes with water type, effectively meaning you can run a fc water without needing waterceus. taunt slaking is everywhere rn so i think dragon tail/circle throw and just hope they aren't the right tera to autowin is necessary, otherwise i think this'll mostly be like last gen suicune where it just sits there and eats hits really well but doesn't do much else.
HE GOT CHINGED ON HIS ONES (ceaseless edge and stone axe) - these set spikes/rocks respectively if they hit. this effect is blocked by covert cloak.
new ways for defensive mons to make progress, with hazards that can't be bounced or taunted and that can be used by regenvest mons. ceaseless breaking caly-s's substitutes is big and just being able to pressure defensive mons for staying in against your defensive mons is really strong.
AVERAGE WARZONE PLAYER (mortal spin) - poison type, poisons the target and clears hazards if successful.
spin alternative which makes more progress but sets up the user less (no speed boost) and is blocked by steel types which are arguably more common than ghosts. i don't think it'll see massive use, especially when the offensive meta cools down and people start running -atespin again, however it's a nice other option and, as a regenvest user, you can punish your spinblocker more effectively with mortal spin than you can with rapid spin, as the main steels hate nuzzle but giratina doesn't mind too much.
GIANT HOOVER (tidy up) - ddance + defog, but also clears substitute on both sides.
this is interesting as a hazard clearing option as it's defog that you can use offensively, however i also don't really know what is ever going to use this as basically every ddancer in gen 8 either sets spikes or wants them. from a strictly hazard clearing perspective, defog is better because it has more PP and being blocked by not having a target is not too relevant in BH, however prank tidy up being self-targeting means darks can't block it which might be relevant in some situations. i can see the use case for some stuff that's like this, however said stuff isn't exceptionally relevant or is illegal at the current time.
OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A WMD (population bomb) - 10 hits of 20 base power. amount of hits calculated the same way as triple axel (90% accuracy check for each hit, must land the check to consider the next hit), makes contact.
this move has some really big damage potential, just based on the fact that it's 200 base power at max. it's definitely flawed despite this massive value, such as needing coil or wide lens to be actually reliable and instantly killing the user if they connect with helmet, however there are workarounds and it is used on some incredibly dangerous mons to good effect. most commonly it's seen on coil pixilate zacian with pads, however stuff like choice band normals and king's rock also exists.
YOU NEED A HGV LICENCE FOR THAT (gigaton hammer) - 160BP steel move, can't be used twice in a row.
this move gives zac-c another excellent option (as if it needed any) and is mostly just used as generic STAB to have on a set if you want to whack something really hard. it's excellent for offensive steels and the only good physical steel move since anchor and sunsteel have been removed, however zac-c is the only offensive steel currently. doesn't really mesh well with band sets tho.
there's also generic new STABs for certain types like dragon (glaive rush), fairy (magical torque), ground (headlong rush), steel (make it rain), fighting (collision course/combat torque), electric (electro drift), normal (hyper drill) but i don't think these are worth mentioning in their own sections as glaive, make it rain and headlong rush are all drawback moves and the rest are just generic STABs with high BP and decent secondary effects.
Last edited:
Quick tiering announcement and some additional info:
Shed tail has been quickbanned!
Shed tail, especially when combined with regenerator, enables low-risk and extremely high potential upside strategies that can take little effort to pull off. Shed tail is very effective at making "soft checks" significantly weaker, such as glare, phazing moves, imposter, and even direct-damage based counterplay. Having pokemon that can reliably soft check a good portion of the metagame is important, and shed tail's ability to bypass that was considered unhealthy, leading to a unanimous ban vote from the BH council.
For this vote, we used a criteria of 4/5 ban votes required for a quickban, and we will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. We are closely watching to see the impact this ban has on belly drum and moody, which may be problematic on their own but were certainly enhanced by shed tail.
Tagging Kris to implement!
Shed tail has been quickbanned!
Shed tail, especially when combined with regenerator, enables low-risk and extremely high potential upside strategies that can take little effort to pull off. Shed tail is very effective at making "soft checks" significantly weaker, such as glare, phazing moves, imposter, and even direct-damage based counterplay. Having pokemon that can reliably soft check a good portion of the metagame is important, and shed tail's ability to bypass that was considered unhealthy, leading to a unanimous ban vote from the BH council.
| XxLazzerpenguinxX | quojova | cityscapes | Tea Guzzler | MAMP | |
| Shed Tail | ban | ban | ban | ban | ban |
For this vote, we used a criteria of 4/5 ban votes required for a quickban, and we will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. We are closely watching to see the impact this ban has on belly drum and moody, which may be problematic on their own but were certainly enhanced by shed tail.
Tagging Kris to implement!
I was writing my point of view of the meta to the french community, and the annonce of Shed Tail quickban comes 15 minutes before I finish the writing... I'm so disgusted that I did something for nearly nothing... 
But I will translate it, and post it soon, some things stays anyway. It will resume the meta before Shed Tail quickban, and why Shed Tail must be gone.
Also I really like the Shed Tale meta but it is a good thing this move is gone for the BH meta.
But I will translate it, and post it soon, some things stays anyway. It will resume the meta before Shed Tail quickban, and why Shed Tail must be gone.
Also I really like the Shed Tale meta but it is a good thing this move is gone for the BH meta.
topped the ladder again so... time to share teams and improve the overall teambuilding of the metagame
idk why but it's good against 1300s players (pokepast.es) - the team i used after getting beaten twice by mid-ladder shed tail players with rocky helmet in their teams. helped me to get 1530 from 1470.
PPPHHH (pokepast.es) - an extremely good balance despite losing to shed tail + rocky helmet. may lead the trend of building post shed tail ban.
rough personal vr at this stage in the meta
S
the head honcho. isn't it fucked up that the best breaker in the tier is also the fastest viable mon? wild stuff
ph is busted and slaking is the strongest abuser atm. vdance/facade/taunt/coverage has very little viable counterplay
very very strong despite the nerfs but doesnt feel broken to me at the moment. still a super flexible fast breaker that offers a ton of utility
A
(fairy) lil xern :) ph is obviously messed up (and physical sets with vdance + magical torque are solid too) and u can also run pixilate or random defensive sets
(ghost) not quite as good since rage fist got banned but normalise and fur coat sets on this are still rly strong. can be hard to justify over other arcs and suffers a bit from caly forcing ghost resists on every team
(steel) the fairy resist is a huge incentive to run this over zama-c. bounce gives you a norm caly, zac-c, and slaking check in one slot, though its not great at checking any of them. just does typical bulky steel things
(water) natdex classic fc waterceus is strong and probably the best answer to zac-c in the meta, but competes with dondozo who doesn't use ur arceus slot. sets like ph and regenvest are a better use of the slot imo
mainly up here for the contrary set which is one of the scariest cleaners in the meta. having the bulk/poison typing to avoid getting rked by zac-c most of the time is great and is the big advantage this has over other contrary mons
old mate. a lot of the best offensive threats in the tier rn are slaking, caly, or dragons, which is awkward for imposter. kicks dicks against fatter teams bc people largely havent figured out how to improof their zama-c without anchor shot yet
good contrary user and hadron engine sets with rising voltage + dragon energy can be obnoxious to switch into unless you've got regenvest ting-lu or something
(origin) beads quiver dance is the secret trust me
versatile caly/hadron check. regenvest gets progress so easily with some combination of uturn/cedge/knock/nuzzle/mortal spin
same old. best slaking check in the meta until ppl remember how good vcreate is
B
(dark) also a very good caly-s check. offensive sets dont seem great to me
(fire) orichalcum pulse sets are really solid, you can run offensive stuff with shift gear and coverage or like utility sets with mortal spin
(normal) its like slaking but fatter, lets you sometimes get through some soft checks like tkick zama-c. defensive sets to check caly-s might be good?
good physical wall. ph and regen are the best sets, fc is too easy to chip down
same old
fc is a great zac-c check and groudon is still rly tough to switch into. excellent mortal spin user
fighting + dragon is weirdly quite difficult to switch into in the current meta. shift gear mold breaker kinda stuff is nice once youve chipped arc
ph is awesome but defensive sets like regenvest, scales?, prankster all decent
most reliable caly check but lacks versatility
C
(fighting) ive had success with fc qd as a slaking check but its pretty lacking in power
(origin) bounce has felt ok as a slaking check because dragon stab is quite good, but im unconvinced that this mon can do all that much until core and doom desire come back
just a bit too weak/frail to make up for being slower than zac-c and caly-s a lot of the time. still rly scary, but has a tough time getting opportunities sometimes
fairy resists that aren't an arceus are hard to come by and heatran is one of the best ones. torch song is a very strong move
ive only played against this once and it was impossible to switch into and confused all my guys with torque
fire immune beats most contrary dragons but tragically lacks the bulk to deal with zac-c. not enough giratina in the meta for offensive sets to be good
caly check but doesnt do anything else, really inflexible
just use a different dragon
its like defensive fairyceus but kinda bad. i've liked regenvest to check contrary dragons
dece zac-c + orichalcum check
D
regieleki
specs refrigerate is ok but this mon is so frail
Untested but maybe viable
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Zacian
Calyrex-I
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Hoopa-U
Diancie
Landorus-T
Victini
Zarude
Cresselia
Enamorus-T
Iron Bundle
Ursaluna
S
the head honcho. isn't it fucked up that the best breaker in the tier is also the fastest viable mon? wild stuff ph is busted and slaking is the strongest abuser atm. vdance/facade/taunt/coverage has very little viable counterplay very very strong despite the nerfs but doesnt feel broken to me at the moment. still a super flexible fast breaker that offers a ton of utilityA
(fairy) lil xern :) ph is obviously messed up (and physical sets with vdance + magical torque are solid too) and u can also run pixilate or random defensive sets (ghost) not quite as good since rage fist got banned but normalise and fur coat sets on this are still rly strong. can be hard to justify over other arcs and suffers a bit from caly forcing ghost resists on every team (steel) the fairy resist is a huge incentive to run this over zama-c. bounce gives you a norm caly, zac-c, and slaking check in one slot, though its not great at checking any of them. just does typical bulky steel things (water) natdex classic fc waterceus is strong and probably the best answer to zac-c in the meta, but competes with dondozo who doesn't use ur arceus slot. sets like ph and regenvest are a better use of the slot imo mainly up here for the contrary set which is one of the scariest cleaners in the meta. having the bulk/poison typing to avoid getting rked by zac-c most of the time is great and is the big advantage this has over other contrary mons old mate. a lot of the best offensive threats in the tier rn are slaking, caly, or dragons, which is awkward for imposter. kicks dicks against fatter teams bc people largely havent figured out how to improof their zama-c without anchor shot yet good contrary user and hadron engine sets with rising voltage + dragon energy can be obnoxious to switch into unless you've got regenvest ting-lu or something (origin) beads quiver dance is the secret trust me versatile caly/hadron check. regenvest gets progress so easily with some combination of uturn/cedge/knock/nuzzle/mortal spin same old. best slaking check in the meta until ppl remember how good vcreate isB
(dark) also a very good caly-s check. offensive sets dont seem great to me (fire) orichalcum pulse sets are really solid, you can run offensive stuff with shift gear and coverage or like utility sets with mortal spin (normal) its like slaking but fatter, lets you sometimes get through some soft checks like tkick zama-c. defensive sets to check caly-s might be good? good physical wall. ph and regen are the best sets, fc is too easy to chip down same old fc is a great zac-c check and groudon is still rly tough to switch into. excellent mortal spin user fighting + dragon is weirdly quite difficult to switch into in the current meta. shift gear mold breaker kinda stuff is nice once youve chipped arc ph is awesome but defensive sets like regenvest, scales?, prankster all decent most reliable caly check but lacks versatilityC
(fighting) ive had success with fc qd as a slaking check but its pretty lacking in power (origin) bounce has felt ok as a slaking check because dragon stab is quite good, but im unconvinced that this mon can do all that much until core and doom desire come back just a bit too weak/frail to make up for being slower than zac-c and caly-s a lot of the time. still rly scary, but has a tough time getting opportunities sometimes fairy resists that aren't an arceus are hard to come by and heatran is one of the best ones. torch song is a very strong move ive only played against this once and it was impossible to switch into and confused all my guys with torque fire immune beats most contrary dragons but tragically lacks the bulk to deal with zac-c. not enough giratina in the meta for offensive sets to be good caly check but doesnt do anything else, really inflexible just use a different dragon its like defensive fairyceus but kinda bad. i've liked regenvest to check contrary dragons dece zac-c + orichalcum checkD
regieleki specs refrigerate is ok but this mon is so frailUntested but maybe viable
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Zacian
Calyrex-I
Giratina-O
Mewtwo
Hoopa-U
Diancie
Landorus-T
Victini
Zarude
Cresselia
Enamorus-T
Iron Bundle
Ursaluna
https://pokepast.es/81de329443366df0
explosion + drumspam. I went 7-0 with this on high ladder and it was pretty silly. please spam it so we can get drum banned. I don't even think it's all that optimized so go ahead and try some variations.
explosion + drumspam. I went 7-0 with this on high ladder and it was pretty silly. please spam it so we can get drum banned. I don't even think it's all that optimized so go ahead and try some variations.
I'm really liking this new meta except for the fact that runaway setup is extra dangerous right now. I'm hoping that some better setup checks are introduced with Home and DLCs because it feels like we might be banning loads and loads of op setup moves until that happens, which is kind of saddening. some sets I've been experimenting with
Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Tackle
- Will-O-Wisp
This is a cool alternative to PH Slaking with different resistances. It's a lot easier to throw this at a Zacian-C because Gigaton isn't killing you for example, so you can WoW it. Also, you're completely improof and can make progress against the Dondozo and Zamac a lot more effectively than Slaking can. Of course, you have to use your Arceus slot, but it's well worth it.
Calyrex-Shadow @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Entrainment
- Mortal Spin
This set lets you make progress against all kinds of stuff including Ting Lu and most bouncers will also letting you punish switches. Great for both early game disruption and late game breaking!
Ting-Lu @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Glare
- Roost
- Revelation Dance / Knock Off / Ceaseless Edge / Precipice Blades
This set is pretty neat as both a solid Caly-S switchin (Sadly you still lose to Pixilate and Specs Springtide variants) and an early Slaking check. You unfortunately can't beat it alone in the long haul, but what Pokemon can? Overall a nice pivot and paralysis spreader, as PH users don't like losing their ability. Most other special attackers still beat you pretty badly though and so you do have the option of running Pblades over Revdance and just hoping Normalize Caly-S isn't running sub or something, which would prevent you from glaring it. You need the extra power of Pblades to do some impressive stuff like 2hKOing Zacian-C if it wants to try its luck against you.
Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Tackle
- Will-O-Wisp
This is a cool alternative to PH Slaking with different resistances. It's a lot easier to throw this at a Zacian-C because Gigaton isn't killing you for example, so you can WoW it. Also, you're completely improof and can make progress against the Dondozo and Zamac a lot more effectively than Slaking can. Of course, you have to use your Arceus slot, but it's well worth it.
252+ Atk Arceus-Electric Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Zacian-Crowned Magical Torque vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Electric: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Arceus-Electric Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 145-172 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Zacian-Crowned Magical Torque vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Electric: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Arceus-Electric Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 145-172 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Calyrex-Shadow @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Entrainment
- Mortal Spin
This set lets you make progress against all kinds of stuff including Ting Lu and most bouncers will also letting you punish switches. Great for both early game disruption and late game breaking!
Ting-Lu @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Glare
- Roost
- Revelation Dance / Knock Off / Ceaseless Edge / Precipice Blades
This set is pretty neat as both a solid Caly-S switchin (Sadly you still lose to Pixilate and Specs Springtide variants) and an early Slaking check. You unfortunately can't beat it alone in the long haul, but what Pokemon can? Overall a nice pivot and paralysis spreader, as PH users don't like losing their ability. Most other special attackers still beat you pretty badly though and so you do have the option of running Pblades over Revdance and just hoping Normalize Caly-S isn't running sub or something, which would prevent you from glaring it. You need the extra power of Pblades to do some impressive stuff like 2hKOing Zacian-C if it wants to try its luck against you.
Since I am now in the 1.3k range in the ladder I technically may now have an opinion in regards to the meta and that opinion is ban Population Bomb
jk (no im not really kidding i hate that move with every cell of my being) anyway I'm gonna be sharing my team for the sake of meta development. Also people need more sample teams so feel free to use my team: https://pokepast.es/4f34fe3c265bfea6
I had to borrow some mons posted in this forum to make this team. If you want to use my team it's simple. Just lead with Zacian-C and unless if your opponent leads with Zacian-C too or an Imposter mon just K.O. one of your opponents mons and then act like nothing happened. If your opponent leads with Zacian-C or an Imposter mon just switch to Fireceus and click V-Create to outspeed the next mon they switch.
Some of my observations are this meta in this Generation has turned pretty offensive. Prankster has lost some of its value due to the fact that Contrary is unbanned. Moves that check setup sweepers are also dexited (i.e. Spectral Thief, Topsy Turvy) and because of this, people need to be super careful against setup sweepers because one mistake can cause them to steamroll the entire game. I also suggest for the higher-ups to focus more on what to do with the move Last Respects. I find it pretty unhealthy for the metagame (as you can see on my team I ran 2 Last Respects). Also ban pop bomb haha i will forever have beef with that move idc
jk (no im not really kidding i hate that move with every cell of my being) anyway I'm gonna be sharing my team for the sake of meta development. Also people need more sample teams so feel free to use my team: https://pokepast.es/4f34fe3c265bfea6
I had to borrow some mons posted in this forum to make this team. If you want to use my team it's simple. Just lead with Zacian-C and unless if your opponent leads with Zacian-C too or an Imposter mon just K.O. one of your opponents mons and then act like nothing happened. If your opponent leads with Zacian-C or an Imposter mon just switch to Fireceus and click V-Create to outspeed the next mon they switch.
Some of my observations are this meta in this Generation has turned pretty offensive. Prankster has lost some of its value due to the fact that Contrary is unbanned. Moves that check setup sweepers are also dexited (i.e. Spectral Thief, Topsy Turvy) and because of this, people need to be super careful against setup sweepers because one mistake can cause them to steamroll the entire game. I also suggest for the higher-ups to focus more on what to do with the move Last Respects. I find it pretty unhealthy for the metagame (as you can see on my team I ran 2 Last Respects). Also ban pop bomb haha i will forever have beef with that move idc
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My long scattered thoughts on the meta so far, currently at around 1400 rating:
At first, it seemed like the meta would be hyper offense oriented with powerful new moves including population bomb and gigaton hammer but thankfully we've settled back into a defensive oriented metagame similar to gen 8.
Turns out Ice Scales, Fur Coat , and Unaware are still pretty good abilities, huh?
As long as these three exist in BH, offense is not getting anything done anytime soon.
So far I've been having major success with a combination of fur coat Dondozo, Ice Scales Ting-Lu, Unaware Arceus (usually Fairy, Flying, Water, or Fire depending on what's popular in ladder at the time) and Unaware Zamazenta-C. Give the Unaware mons their own setup moves like Vdance/QDance and you can sweep pretty easily. Spirit Shackle and Jaw Lock are also available to trap setup sweepers that don't realize you're running Unaware yet. Throw in a Contrary cleaner of your choice or a Pheal Slaking for good measure, and you're good to go for most matchups. Last slot goes to a prankster mon of your choice. I find Toxapex to still be pretty decent for this role but I'm sure this will change as the meta evolves.
Zacian-C turned out to be surprisingly easy to deal with and it's -20 attack nerf certainly helped out. Fur Coat Dondozo alone handles many of its variants quite efficiently and unaware cotton guard mons with rocky helmet can makes quick work of pop bomb variants. Mons that are weak to headlong rush can simply tera away into a better defensive typing for the matchup as well. Protean Zacian is a thing but Protean was nerfed to only activate a single time and it's usually used for either V-create or Headlong Rush. This makes the matchup fairly predictable so I can usually just Tera into the appropriate resist to deal with it or just switch into Dondozo if I want to save my Tera for later. I did see a Power Whip Zacian-C one time but it still couldn't do anything to the big fish boi Dozo. Last note on this, Haze does have 48pp so you can stall out the Contrary sets until they have no more Superpowers left.
I was initially quite worried about Pop Bomb but after some laddering, I don't think it's ban worthy. There are far too many building restrictions and requirements for it to be viable, including giving up an item slot for either wide lens or protective pads or needing to spend a turn boosting with coil. Fun fact: unaware ignores the accuracy boost anyway. I caused quite a few rage quits with that one in lower ladder. Some sets do run Magic Guard but then you can't really do anything to the Fur Coaters and Unaware walls. Overall, I don't mind if Pop Bomb stays in.
Slaking is great and I hope it stays in. The Pheal taunt set serves as a nice check to pure stall players. Without Pheal Slaking, pure stall may become too dominant in the current metagame and with the Rage Fist variant already banned, I don't think Slaking is an issue currently. A well built balanced team can deal with it, given proper plays are made. And aggressive teams can blow right through it with Koraidon or a Tera Fighting sweeper. A +1 Caly-S makes quick work of it as well with the Boomburst and Fleur Cannon variants.
Contrary was pretty scary at first but once again the unstoppable trio of Unaware Fur-Scales reliably puts a stop to most offense shenanigans. I could still see it being banned though. If you lose your unaware mon to some cheese then it could be a problem but most skilled players will be able to avoid such a situation with some good switch ins and usually pack more than one unaware mon on their team (at least I do).
Power Trip teams disappeared after shell smashed got banned. The few that do remain usually have to use Simple or Fillet Away and those sets are easily dealt with by prankster haze or unaware. Overall not worth worrying about.
Final scary threat was Belly Drum but, as usual, Unaware and Fur Coat stops that cheese right in its tracks. Some sets run explosion but it's fairly obvious when they are going to use explosion so you can just use a protective move of your choice to make them waste a mon. Not like they have any other choice against a Fur Coat or Unaware tank. I do prefer Baneful Bunker for the poison in case they click Espeed instead of Explosion. Spiky Shield works great as well if they are already poisoned from your toxic spikes. You could opt to run a Giratina as well since it's immune to Explosion. Tera Steel allows it to resist the -ate typed explosions as well.
For Mold Breaker variants, the good old imposter chansey takes care of it as usual. Running Mold Breaker means they can't run Unburden. And if the other Bdrummers are running Unburden well then they do nothing to Unaware.
You could also put yourself in a position to use cotton guard or haze on one of your Unaware mons on the same turn they use belly drum. Sure they have Mold Breaker but 2.5x defense is pretty sufficient. You can take a hit and haze afterwards then recover. Prankster Haze is usually all I need though whenever I see these teams. You could always just tera your imposter chansey into flying type to avoid headlong rush or bug type to resist it and stay neutral to glacial lance. I just stick with flying for now. Finally, you can just sac a mon to glare their mold breaker or haze it if it ever comes to that.
Overall it's a fairly linear playstyle with plenty of ways to play around it. I don't see a need for a ban just yet.
I'm rather indifferent on Last Respects. Haven't seen it much and when I have, it wasn't an issue. Don't really care if it stays or not. If it's really that big of a deal, you could always just run a normal type like Slaking or Blissey/Chansey. Or just Tera into Normal typing.
I do suspect Court Change may eventually need to be looked at but I've yet to see that move in ladder so far.
Anyway that's all for now. I can't wait to see how the meta evolves from here but you know what they say: The more things change, the more things stay the same.
At first, it seemed like the meta would be hyper offense oriented with powerful new moves including population bomb and gigaton hammer but thankfully we've settled back into a defensive oriented metagame similar to gen 8.
Turns out Ice Scales, Fur Coat , and Unaware are still pretty good abilities, huh?
As long as these three exist in BH, offense is not getting anything done anytime soon.
So far I've been having major success with a combination of fur coat Dondozo, Ice Scales Ting-Lu, Unaware Arceus (usually Fairy, Flying, Water, or Fire depending on what's popular in ladder at the time) and Unaware Zamazenta-C. Give the Unaware mons their own setup moves like Vdance/QDance and you can sweep pretty easily. Spirit Shackle and Jaw Lock are also available to trap setup sweepers that don't realize you're running Unaware yet. Throw in a Contrary cleaner of your choice or a Pheal Slaking for good measure, and you're good to go for most matchups. Last slot goes to a prankster mon of your choice. I find Toxapex to still be pretty decent for this role but I'm sure this will change as the meta evolves.
Zacian-C turned out to be surprisingly easy to deal with and it's -20 attack nerf certainly helped out. Fur Coat Dondozo alone handles many of its variants quite efficiently and unaware cotton guard mons with rocky helmet can makes quick work of pop bomb variants. Mons that are weak to headlong rush can simply tera away into a better defensive typing for the matchup as well. Protean Zacian is a thing but Protean was nerfed to only activate a single time and it's usually used for either V-create or Headlong Rush. This makes the matchup fairly predictable so I can usually just Tera into the appropriate resist to deal with it or just switch into Dondozo if I want to save my Tera for later. I did see a Power Whip Zacian-C one time but it still couldn't do anything to the big fish boi Dozo. Last note on this, Haze does have 48pp so you can stall out the Contrary sets until they have no more Superpowers left.
I was initially quite worried about Pop Bomb but after some laddering, I don't think it's ban worthy. There are far too many building restrictions and requirements for it to be viable, including giving up an item slot for either wide lens or protective pads or needing to spend a turn boosting with coil. Fun fact: unaware ignores the accuracy boost anyway. I caused quite a few rage quits with that one in lower ladder. Some sets do run Magic Guard but then you can't really do anything to the Fur Coaters and Unaware walls. Overall, I don't mind if Pop Bomb stays in.
Slaking is great and I hope it stays in. The Pheal taunt set serves as a nice check to pure stall players. Without Pheal Slaking, pure stall may become too dominant in the current metagame and with the Rage Fist variant already banned, I don't think Slaking is an issue currently. A well built balanced team can deal with it, given proper plays are made. And aggressive teams can blow right through it with Koraidon or a Tera Fighting sweeper. A +1 Caly-S makes quick work of it as well with the Boomburst and Fleur Cannon variants.
Contrary was pretty scary at first but once again the unstoppable trio of Unaware Fur-Scales reliably puts a stop to most offense shenanigans. I could still see it being banned though. If you lose your unaware mon to some cheese then it could be a problem but most skilled players will be able to avoid such a situation with some good switch ins and usually pack more than one unaware mon on their team (at least I do).
Power Trip teams disappeared after shell smashed got banned. The few that do remain usually have to use Simple or Fillet Away and those sets are easily dealt with by prankster haze or unaware. Overall not worth worrying about.
Final scary threat was Belly Drum but, as usual, Unaware and Fur Coat stops that cheese right in its tracks. Some sets run explosion but it's fairly obvious when they are going to use explosion so you can just use a protective move of your choice to make them waste a mon. Not like they have any other choice against a Fur Coat or Unaware tank. I do prefer Baneful Bunker for the poison in case they click Espeed instead of Explosion. Spiky Shield works great as well if they are already poisoned from your toxic spikes. You could opt to run a Giratina as well since it's immune to Explosion. Tera Steel allows it to resist the -ate typed explosions as well.
For Mold Breaker variants, the good old imposter chansey takes care of it as usual. Running Mold Breaker means they can't run Unburden. And if the other Bdrummers are running Unburden well then they do nothing to Unaware.
You could also put yourself in a position to use cotton guard or haze on one of your Unaware mons on the same turn they use belly drum. Sure they have Mold Breaker but 2.5x defense is pretty sufficient. You can take a hit and haze afterwards then recover. Prankster Haze is usually all I need though whenever I see these teams. You could always just tera your imposter chansey into flying type to avoid headlong rush or bug type to resist it and stay neutral to glacial lance. I just stick with flying for now. Finally, you can just sac a mon to glare their mold breaker or haze it if it ever comes to that.
Overall it's a fairly linear playstyle with plenty of ways to play around it. I don't see a need for a ban just yet.
I'm rather indifferent on Last Respects. Haven't seen it much and when I have, it wasn't an issue. Don't really care if it stays or not. If it's really that big of a deal, you could always just run a normal type like Slaking or Blissey/Chansey. Or just Tera into Normal typing.
I do suspect Court Change may eventually need to be looked at but I've yet to see that move in ladder so far.
Anyway that's all for now. I can't wait to see how the meta evolves from here but you know what they say: The more things change, the more things stay the same.
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Finally here my review of the meta! (I just hope you didn't wait it too long). Like I said, i will talk about the Shed Tail Meta a little, but iI will also talk about the current meta .
Now serious things : The Current Meta
I think I did a quite good resume on abilities and moves in BH. I will maybe do a quick VR after, even if MAMP have did a good job, but for me, have some change to do like Zoroark-Husui, a pokemon who have a special niche the anti-meta niche. I run this set :
Rayman (Zoroark-Hisui) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Lumina Crash/ Boomburst
With is unique typing, It could wall Normalize set (because they run Spooky Plate), PH Slaking Facade / VDance/ Taunt / Last Respects, Last Respects + Collision Course, AND still have a quite good Normalize set VS other pokemon. Maybe not splashable in all team but if Last Respects annoys you...
I hope you will like my summary and that it wasn't too long...
In 7th generation, I played a SubPass in BH and have good result because I paired with good Wallbreaker. Now we have Shed Tail, this move do Substitute with 50% HP AND pivot WITH the sub. I knew it will be strong.
The main Shed Tail users are Prankster or Regenerators (because you can heal easily and do some Shed Tail again later) with a good HP stat (we want a substitute with a lot of HP, hard to break for passives defensives pokemons. Once you clicked Shed Tail, you just need to switch on the wallbreakers you wanted to break the opponent team (in theory).
Shed Tail is really really strong, both players will play it, try to set up the "Shed Tail Abuser", and tank the opponent "Shed Tail Abuser". A lot of Pokemon profit of the substitute like pokemons who use some Set-up, the pokemon who will use Tera + choice specs -ate Boomburst (sound move bypass sub), Contrary users, Good as Gold user (beats Parting Shot, Whirlwind...).
Finally, even if I really liked this meta, Shed Tail is too good. Really good on Hyper Offense/Bulky Offense/Balanced. I understand why it get QB, some people talks about unban it if the meta slow down and become too defensive, but I really doubt it.
If you didn't see it in action, I have some pokepast for you :
Shed Tail BWAAAAAAH, a exemple of what you can do with Shed Tail. I won a lot of battle and only lose 2-3 battles with that.
The main Shed Tail users are Prankster or Regenerators (because you can heal easily and do some Shed Tail again later) with a good HP stat (we want a substitute with a lot of HP, hard to break for passives defensives pokemons. Once you clicked Shed Tail, you just need to switch on the wallbreakers you wanted to break the opponent team (in theory).
Shed Tail is really really strong, both players will play it, try to set up the "Shed Tail Abuser", and tank the opponent "Shed Tail Abuser". A lot of Pokemon profit of the substitute like pokemons who use some Set-up, the pokemon who will use Tera + choice specs -ate Boomburst (sound move bypass sub), Contrary users, Good as Gold user (beats Parting Shot, Whirlwind...).
Finally, even if I really liked this meta, Shed Tail is too good. Really good on Hyper Offense/Bulky Offense/Balanced. I understand why it get QB, some people talks about unban it if the meta slow down and become too defensive, but I really doubt it.
If you didn't see it in action, I have some pokepast for you :
Shed Tail BWAAAAAAH, a exemple of what you can do with Shed Tail. I won a lot of battle and only lose 2-3 battles with that.
You have 3 ways to used the Terastallize :
-Boost a STAB you already have with an attack you will spam to deal A LOT OF damage (insert meme here).
-Have a new STAB attack and lure some pokemon or having a better offensive typing.
-Have a nice type on your defensive pokemon.
For me, the strongest way to use a Terastal is the first way. When you could use a choice specs Pixilate Boomburst WITH tera Fairy, you just deal
so much damage... When in 6G, you have a special clause called -ate Clause, and now you have just a better -ate Boomburst with your Tera even if -ate was nerfed... I am the only person who have tested that? With healing move nerf, you could just spam it... And this doesn't apply for just -ate. You just need a strong STAB you can run.
The second one is decent, kinda interesting.Not too strong, not too bad for me currently. But the third way is for me, the worst way to use it. If you use that way,you had a bad teambuilding or played bad. It is just a deseparate spare wheel... It is just a waste.
I think the first way to terastallize is kinda too strong and maybe deserve a suspect or a clause like "We can't use a STAB terastallize)
-Boost a STAB you already have with an attack you will spam to deal A LOT OF damage (insert meme here).
-Have a new STAB attack and lure some pokemon or having a better offensive typing.
-Have a nice type on your defensive pokemon.
For me, the strongest way to use a Terastal is the first way. When you could use a choice specs Pixilate Boomburst WITH tera Fairy, you just deal
so much damage... When in 6G, you have a special clause called -ate Clause, and now you have just a better -ate Boomburst with your Tera even if -ate was nerfed... I am the only person who have tested that? With healing move nerf, you could just spam it... And this doesn't apply for just -ate. You just need a strong STAB you can run.
The second one is decent, kinda interesting.Not too strong, not too bad for me currently. But the third way is for me, the worst way to use it. If you use that way,you had a bad teambuilding or played bad. It is just a deseparate spare wheel... It is just a waste.
I think the first way to terastallize is kinda too strong and maybe deserve a suspect or a clause like "We can't use a STAB terastallize)
For me, the Last Respects strategy is kinda 50/50. It could kill everything with a easy sweep, or it could be a big flop because your opponent have something against it and was prepared. The combo Last Respects + Collision Course is a really good coverage. For the talent Suprem Overlord seems a good synergy but I think you will prefere Dazzling or Gold as Gold finally. A focus Sash or a Scarf for the item. Didn't use it personally but seems alright, but kinda random. You can't really say "Oh this is obviously run Last Respectsand it will try to sweep me" (unless it is a Dragapult but...), It could be a sample on a lot of physical set, you just need some KO in your team. Don't remember you just need 2 KO in your team to have a Last Respects more powerful than Poltergeist with more PP, the opposite pokemon doesn't need to have a item, could scale again with more KO in your team and 100% accurate. When people will think about it, Last Respects will become a trouble I think... Because it doesn't need specially a huge gambit like full Final Gambit or Explosion for Last Respects to be powerful, i think it deserve a QuickBan or a suspect.
I don't understand why this combo work.
Moody still Moody. So random...I didn't saw it so much so I don't have an opinion for it. Maybe a ban because is random and with luck you could just sweep (I remember an opponent who had a Moody Calyrex-S who get all boost in speed and in spA... so what a skilled opponent i think...).
Could run Imprison Haze also...
Moody still Moody. So random...I didn't saw it so much so I don't have an opinion for it. Maybe a ban because is random and with luck you could just sweep (I remember an opponent who had a Moody Calyrex-S who get all boost in speed and in spA... so what a skilled opponent i think...).
Could run Imprison Haze also...
GaG is an amazing ability on offensive pokemon. Be immune to Strength Sap, WoW, Glare, Encore, Taunt, Pshot, Whirlwind and even to Entrainment / Skill Swap from Normalize. For me the better user is Zacian-C because could be a real Win Condition if Fur Coat / Unaware users can't really touch it. Combine with the Covert Cloak and you are immun to burn Scald, Nuzzle, no flinch... Is just a great combo, because you don't see that much Knock off because we have the new move Ceaseless Edge and a good Knock off absorber (hello Slaking PH). Is GaG a broken ability? I don't think. It will not do the damage than a Banded Gorilla Tactics will do for a exemple, but if you search a good late sweeper who could disable too passive defensive pokemon, yes it is a really good ability... Maybe put this abilityin the watchlist if people found it broken.
Covert Cloak is a really good item on defensive pokemon also. Don't get the spikes effect with Ceaseless Edge, no poison with Mortal Spin... Could be a good way to improof your defensive pokemon (could spread spikes with Ceaseless Edge but your opponent no...) Somebody tell me it is a good combo with Magic Bounce, and it is true... But i don't think it is a meta where Magic Bounce is powerful (maybe when people will use Spikes to not be blocked by Covert Cloak maybe it will be a good meta for MBounce Covert Cloak to shine.
Covert Cloak is a really good item on defensive pokemon also. Don't get the spikes effect with Ceaseless Edge, no poison with Mortal Spin... Could be a good way to improof your defensive pokemon (could spread spikes with Ceaseless Edge but your opponent no...) Somebody tell me it is a good combo with Magic Bounce, and it is true... But i don't think it is a meta where Magic Bounce is powerful (maybe when people will use Spikes to not be blocked by Covert Cloak maybe it will be a good meta for MBounce Covert Cloak to shine.
Like in 7G, it still a good abilityif you want to sweep a team because the opponent didn't have an adequate answer. And with the comeback of Revelation Dance, and with some other way to counter it (Good as Gold, Magic Bounce, the item Ability Shield), I find it really correct. Not Bad, not Broken.
A way to put the sun, to boost your attack to 30%... A ideal way to spam V-create with the Tera Fire! Yes but no... Hello Psea counter it SO HARD. I don't find this ability actually good really. Few pokemon who really want this ability (Arceus-Fire, some players plays Zacian-C Tera Fire...)... We don't have a really good fire who want that + Tera Fire to spam V-create (bye-bye DGZ). Seriously don't find that good as people says. Just a way for me to waste a Tera when Psea exist and counter it.
But Hadron Engine is quite good! Put an Electic Terrain + boost you SpA is really good specially with Rising Voltage! And you have a really good pokemon to spam it called Miraidon! That is a good ability! NO one run surge actually (maybe Psychic Surge for HO but that all...) so don't get walled by an ability, and with powerful STAB... What else? You really need a check for that. Mirraidon still the better user, and could run a choice set or even a set-up set could surprise.
But Hadron Engine is quite good! Put an Electic Terrain + boost you SpA is really good specially with Rising Voltage! And you have a really good pokemon to spam it called Miraidon! That is a good ability! NO one run surge actually (maybe Psychic Surge for HO but that all...) so don't get walled by an ability, and with powerful STAB... What else? You really need a check for that. Mirraidon still the better user, and could run a choice set or even a set-up set could surprise.
Ban this please...It is absurd... I did some test with Palapapop, to see the damage a Gorilla Tactics Band could do to a some Fur Coat set. Finally nearly all Fur Coat sets get 2HKO by it just with tera Ground and Headlong Rush. See why I think it deserve a quickban? I think this kind of set is just too powerful. You could easily improof your Gorilla Band with one of your pokemon and broke other team in two. Could run Scarfed set if you want a little surprise like "Oh my Groudon outspeed your Zacian-C and killed it :)" even if it lacks some power compared to banded. Need speed? Band Gorilla Tactics with a priority move could work too.
Please QB it... Gorilla Tactics is a broken talent. Why unban it when Illusion still banned?
Please QB it... Gorilla Tactics is a broken talent. Why unban it when Illusion still banned?
Good power but not spammable, I don't think this move is broken. Steel coverage isn't good i just see the move as a "Fairy Destroyer".Even as a Steel STAB, I didn't find it great because Steel STAB isn't that important for me...Maybe an other move on your moveset will be better than Gigaton Hammer.That all for me...
For a lot of players Pbomb seemed broken when SV was implemented in Showdown. Actually for me, it is quite weak.If you don't want to be killed by the Rocky helmet you need the protective pads. If you want to have a 10-hits Pbomb, you needa good accuracy so No Guard, Wide Lens or use Coil. Walled by Ghosts, you must run a -ate ability. Lacks of power? Need set-up or/and a -ate boost. Maybe you see what i will tell... Pbomb need so much thing if you want it to work. Zacian-C Pixilate Pbomb could work but honestly maybe Zacian-Ccould runs a better set than this...
King's rock Pbomb? No power, no accuracy, ruined by Rocky helmet, Prankster heal before etc... just don't run that...
For a lot of players Pbomb seemed broken when SV was implemented in Showdown. Actually for me, it is quite weak.If you don't want to be killed by the Rocky helmet you need the protective pads. If you want to have a 10-hits Pbomb, you needa good accuracy so No Guard, Wide Lens or use Coil. Walled by Ghosts, you must run a -ate ability. Lacks of power? Need set-up or/and a -ate boost. Maybe you see what i will tell... Pbomb need so much thing if you want it to work. Zacian-C Pixilate Pbomb could work but honestly maybe Zacian-Ccould runs a better set than this...
King's rock Pbomb? No power, no accuracy, ruined by Rocky helmet, Prankster heal before etc... just don't run that...
Pure physical Contrary isn't broken, you could easily wall them with a good Fur Coat / Unaware user. Special and Mixed Contrary are harder to deal.
Running Imposter scarf isn'ta good way because the opponent will switch on his perfect improof. Running Plate Judgement for exemple. Honestly i think a suspect could come on this ability... A good thing is Contrary doesn't have Moldbreaker moves like in 7G/8G, so you still have unaware do deal with set-up again.
Running Imposter scarf isn'ta good way because the opponent will switch on his perfect improof. Running Plate Judgement for exemple. Honestly i think a suspect could come on this ability... A good thing is Contrary doesn't have Moldbreaker moves like in 7G/8G, so you still have unaware do deal with set-up again.
I think I did a quite good resume on abilities and moves in BH. I will maybe do a quick VR after, even if MAMP have did a good job, but for me, have some change to do like Zoroark-Husui, a pokemon who have a special niche the anti-meta niche. I run this set :
Rayman (Zoroark-Hisui) @ Dread Plate
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Lumina Crash/ Boomburst
With is unique typing, It could wall Normalize set (because they run Spooky Plate), PH Slaking Facade / VDance/ Taunt / Last Respects, Last Respects + Collision Course, AND still have a quite good Normalize set VS other pokemon. Maybe not splashable in all team but if Last Respects annoys you...
I hope you will like my summary and that it wasn't too long...
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Been having a lot of fun with the BH ladder! Definitely enjoying it more than I expected to enjoy early ladder. It turns out that even with a billion new offense tools and nerfed Recover pp, bulkier builds can still do quite well :) I was expecting Last Respects and Population Bomb to be much more annoying than they are, but honestly I've found them pretty easy to deal with in practice. Much more annoying are Contrary (broken tbh), and a few new moves with secondary effects: Magical Torque, Lumina Crash, Triple Arrow... None of those are broken though, just annoying.
Terastalizing is also way more fun and less obnoxious than I expected. Imo defensive teras are a lot more useful than offensive teras right now. Usually I only see offensive teras being used to push 2HKOs into OHKO territory, which is cool but often kind of underwhelming, especially considering the opportunity cost. On the other hand, defensive teras can get you a free turn with a surprise immunity, and potentially completely neuter an opponent's biggest threats to any one mon on your team. So overall I think tera is interesting and much more balanced than I expected.
Now that I've hit high 1300s with it, I think I'll post the inaugural obnoxious stall team of the thread: https://pokepast.es/2d0c42bd3370f2dd It struggles with Mixed Contrary, but what doesn't lol. Fireceus in particular is a huge pain. Other than that though, I think it can pretty cleanly answer most threats, and I've been having a lot of fun with it. If you're going to use it, just remember not to hard switch Arceus into setup mons that can 2HKO it before you can boost. Originally Giratina was running an ImpForm set, but that version of the team struggled with Substitute users and Taunt Slaking a bit too much. I still think ImpForm can work well though; if you do enough scouting before you reveal you can usually get some key kills with it. (Edit: Just realized Water Tera on Arceus deals with V-Create and Gigaton, I'm not going to test it rn but that seems like a big improvement.)
Terastalizing is also way more fun and less obnoxious than I expected. Imo defensive teras are a lot more useful than offensive teras right now. Usually I only see offensive teras being used to push 2HKOs into OHKO territory, which is cool but often kind of underwhelming, especially considering the opportunity cost. On the other hand, defensive teras can get you a free turn with a surprise immunity, and potentially completely neuter an opponent's biggest threats to any one mon on your team. So overall I think tera is interesting and much more balanced than I expected.
Now that I've hit high 1300s with it, I think I'll post the inaugural obnoxious stall team of the thread: https://pokepast.es/2d0c42bd3370f2dd It struggles with Mixed Contrary, but what doesn't lol. Fireceus in particular is a huge pain. Other than that though, I think it can pretty cleanly answer most threats, and I've been having a lot of fun with it. If you're going to use it, just remember not to hard switch Arceus into setup mons that can 2HKO it before you can boost. Originally Giratina was running an ImpForm set, but that version of the team struggled with Substitute users and Taunt Slaking a bit too much. I still think ImpForm can work well though; if you do enough scouting before you reveal you can usually get some key kills with it. (Edit: Just realized Water Tera on Arceus deals with V-Create and Gigaton, I'm not going to test it rn but that seems like a big improvement.)
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Hello is it indended for non-multitype arceus-fire to be able to use burn up without losing its fire type?
correct. arceus can't have it's type changed by any means, so spamming burn up (or double shock as arceus-electric) means it doesn't lose it's type when using the move. apparently this also happens for tera types. certain species of pokemon have certain characteristics, such as mega gengar being immune to telekenisis, and arc not being able to have it's type changed is one of these.
Holy cannoli
so unfortunately calc cant factor in tera type yet but ive been messing around with adapt tera ghost caly. its kind of silly. Adapt +specs+astral already threatens anything that isnt normarc/slaking, tera gives it a good shot to 2hko ting lu (only real dark type rn btw) and it only takes a small amount of chip to actually just 2hko it. its best improof is regenvest ting lu (i think you could run an improof that allows caly to hit ting lu supereffectively, but the role compression lost of just running regenvest ting is too large imo), and thats the only thing that effectively walls it. current state of the meta means caly can easily take adv of relatively do-nothing walls, and force a KO from the opponent unless theyre specifically running their own regenvest ting. if the ting gets KO'd by a teammate fairyceus (new ph xern btw) or takes enough chip, a team typically just loses. just an example of offensive teras effectiveness.
EDIT: ran some numbers, tera astral is effectively a 160 BP ghost type move. do with that what you will.
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this makes me doubt whether arceus can change its type via tera in real game
salt cure trapping, what a joy, salt cure is pretty good in this tier full of water and steel
I've been running sand stall and have managed to counter almost all of the threats in the meta, zacian is pretty legit, bring multiple zacian counter/checks, alolan muk is a hero this gen, regenvest got mortal spin and ceaseless edge
dark knight (Zacian-Crowned) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recover
- Substitute
- Victory Dance
- Magical Torque
I've won so many games with this mon, my team is solid but almost always no one is ready for this mon, if you don't have heatran there is a good chance you will lose, or arceus steel unaware
I've been running sand stall and have managed to counter almost all of the threats in the meta, zacian is pretty legit, bring multiple zacian counter/checks, alolan muk is a hero this gen, regenvest got mortal spin and ceaseless edge
dark knight (Zacian-Crowned) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recover
- Substitute
- Victory Dance
- Magical Torque
I've won so many games with this mon, my team is solid but almost always no one is ready for this mon, if you don't have heatran there is a good chance you will lose, or arceus steel unaware
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Some thoughts after playing the meta for a while:
The current state of PH (poison heal) + tera is completely broken. PH by itself is already hard to deal with, since almost all of the counterplay is bypassable in some way. Having taunt blocks non-bounce entrainment, worry seed, opposing setup, whirlwind, non-prank haze, heart swap and so on. Having sub blocks bounce entrain, dtail/circle throw, prank entrain, salt cure, and so on again. Adding tera onto this means these mons are almost impossible to stop with direct damage, since they can change their resistances on a whim and at the same time they are either boosting their defense with victory dance or special defense with quiver. Tera also gives these mons the opportunity to become immune to either dtail, circle throw, or prank entrain. Reliance on toxic orb imposter is already a bad sign for the meta but tera can let you easily bypass that too.
All this results in a metagame where very often games devolve into a single setup opportunity spiraling the game out of control. Matches are often determined by which highly counterable anti-ph strategies you chose and if they can do anything or not. If we want to get this meta into a competitive state, we need back and forth matches where one vulnerability does not mean instant defeat. This is also what breaks contrary and belly drum in my opinion, but those are tangential to the main focus of this post.
So if we can get on the same page that the current state of PH and tera is broken, I think we should pursue at least one of the following options. This is not necessarily an exhaustive list, and other tiering suggestions are appreciated. The list is also not necessarily ordered by how much I support each option.
1. Ban tera OR poison heal. The most straightforward approach. Still, these are the most tier-defining options available and if this is pursued it would likely be by suspect rather than quickban. What also needs to happen if we decide on this path is a discussion on which of tera and poison heal should be suspected. Since they enhance each other, I think it would be wrong to suspect both at the same time.
2. Ban calyrex AND slaking. These are the most broken abusers of tera + ph, and banning them could get the meta in a more stable state. While replacements like arceus-normal exist, they are a bit easier to pivot around or click prank entrain on without taking 70 on your prankster mon. A lot of the fundamental issues remain though, so if ph+tera is still problematic after these bans, it would likely lead to a banning of tera or ph anyway, followed by a potential unban of calyrex/slaking. The main upside of this approach is that it is less committal and it allows us to try other metagame states before possibly going for the straightforward approach.
3. Ban victory dance AND quiver dance. Tea guzzler proposed this and it could work. A large part of what makes direct damage based counterplay so unreliable is the defense boosting offered by these two moves. Currently mons like zamazenta are reliant on moves like sacred sword, which is just a bit absurd. Special ph in particular is weakened significantly in sweeping by being unable to boost speed and damage at the time, although wallbreaking-wise they are probably fine with nasty plot. Personally, I can't see this working too well alone without a tera ban to go with it, but that is admittedly theorymon.
The current state of PH (poison heal) + tera is completely broken. PH by itself is already hard to deal with, since almost all of the counterplay is bypassable in some way. Having taunt blocks non-bounce entrainment, worry seed, opposing setup, whirlwind, non-prank haze, heart swap and so on. Having sub blocks bounce entrain, dtail/circle throw, prank entrain, salt cure, and so on again. Adding tera onto this means these mons are almost impossible to stop with direct damage, since they can change their resistances on a whim and at the same time they are either boosting their defense with victory dance or special defense with quiver. Tera also gives these mons the opportunity to become immune to either dtail, circle throw, or prank entrain. Reliance on toxic orb imposter is already a bad sign for the meta but tera can let you easily bypass that too.
All this results in a metagame where very often games devolve into a single setup opportunity spiraling the game out of control. Matches are often determined by which highly counterable anti-ph strategies you chose and if they can do anything or not. If we want to get this meta into a competitive state, we need back and forth matches where one vulnerability does not mean instant defeat. This is also what breaks contrary and belly drum in my opinion, but those are tangential to the main focus of this post.
So if we can get on the same page that the current state of PH and tera is broken, I think we should pursue at least one of the following options. This is not necessarily an exhaustive list, and other tiering suggestions are appreciated. The list is also not necessarily ordered by how much I support each option.
1. Ban tera OR poison heal. The most straightforward approach. Still, these are the most tier-defining options available and if this is pursued it would likely be by suspect rather than quickban. What also needs to happen if we decide on this path is a discussion on which of tera and poison heal should be suspected. Since they enhance each other, I think it would be wrong to suspect both at the same time.
2. Ban calyrex AND slaking. These are the most broken abusers of tera + ph, and banning them could get the meta in a more stable state. While replacements like arceus-normal exist, they are a bit easier to pivot around or click prank entrain on without taking 70 on your prankster mon. A lot of the fundamental issues remain though, so if ph+tera is still problematic after these bans, it would likely lead to a banning of tera or ph anyway, followed by a potential unban of calyrex/slaking. The main upside of this approach is that it is less committal and it allows us to try other metagame states before possibly going for the straightforward approach.
3. Ban victory dance AND quiver dance. Tea guzzler proposed this and it could work. A large part of what makes direct damage based counterplay so unreliable is the defense boosting offered by these two moves. Currently mons like zamazenta are reliant on moves like sacred sword, which is just a bit absurd. Special ph in particular is weakened significantly in sweeping by being unable to boost speed and damage at the time, although wallbreaking-wise they are probably fine with nasty plot. Personally, I can't see this working too well alone without a tera ban to go with it, but that is admittedly theorymon.