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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter Chessking345
- Start date
It has double the PP
Good day
I have not been on here in ages n i just started playing back BH today n i have noticed there is a team being used with double imposter on the ladder.
Chansey with shed shell and Blissey with scarf.
Why is illusion still banned? Its a great imposter challenge
Why is imprison banned? It shuts down imposter sets completely
Imposter is not the glue that holds this meta together, its the box that stifles creativity and unpredictably in Bh.
The council and all the players "that matter" will never ban imposter but ban the the things that give imposter a lil challenge.
Improofing does not mean shit if when you see the opponents sets you just switch to an appropriate counter and put them in an unfavorable position.
All i ask is if illusion can be brought back or even imprison or something to limit this bs menace on the meta.(even trapping abilities)
It really is discouraging when you see the 2 pink menaces in team preview n have to do mental gymnastics in how you are going to play the match to win or enjoy.
Some examples below:
Replay where i won because i outplayed
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1931047850-vyrdb2tkd67214nfgjlq2fy7q13qm7lpw
Replay where i lost n this is my 2nd time playing this specific team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1931055107-ivazkwkaa78fyjvyfi7qbi7wgdosmzjpw
I have not been on here in ages n i just started playing back BH today n i have noticed there is a team being used with double imposter on the ladder.
Chansey with shed shell and Blissey with scarf.
Why is illusion still banned? Its a great imposter challenge
Why is imprison banned? It shuts down imposter sets completely
Imposter is not the glue that holds this meta together, its the box that stifles creativity and unpredictably in Bh.
The council and all the players "that matter" will never ban imposter but ban the the things that give imposter a lil challenge.
Improofing does not mean shit if when you see the opponents sets you just switch to an appropriate counter and put them in an unfavorable position.
All i ask is if illusion can be brought back or even imprison or something to limit this bs menace on the meta.(even trapping abilities)
It really is discouraging when you see the 2 pink menaces in team preview n have to do mental gymnastics in how you are going to play the match to win or enjoy.
Some examples below:
Replay where i won because i outplayed
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1931047850-vyrdb2tkd67214nfgjlq2fy7q13qm7lpw
Replay where i lost n this is my 2nd time playing this specific team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-1931055107-ivazkwkaa78fyjvyfi7qbi7wgdosmzjpw
personally ive never had a problem with imposters they are neccesary cause if not your gonna have to run niche unaware/prankster sets for setups
Why the fuck are you telling someone to eat a dick on turn 15 without them saying anything. Are you doing a bit? Like don't get me wrong I think there are goofy strategies in this game that take no skill to use (linear choice protean + slow pivot shit and mu fish ghostceus) but I don't go around insulting people who use them as though they committed a personal grievance against me. You've seriously been like this ever since I started playing 6-7 years ago, every other long standing BH player can remember a time (or more likely several) where you were toxic to them for using imposter. I'm not even particularly attached to the mon and I think Chessking makes some decent points on the pro ban side but I am sick of your shit. Can you grow up already?
I'm not going to comment my thoughts on Imposter itself as I haven't touched this "new" meta much, so my arguments are likely full of holes or are incomplete. Pre-fulldex, I leaned somewhere toward Chessking's sentiments and probably still would. However, whenever criticizing Imposter, we need to address our own teambuilding strategies and thoroughly think through our anti-Imposter counterplay before doing so which I don't think was done here. Moreoever, you must consider that the "council members who matter" have been playing each Gen 9 metas since their respective day 1's while you've only been playing it, well, as you just mentioned yourself, since today. Whatever prior knowledge you have from prior gens does not carry forward as easily as you make it out. You don't just get on this ladder and magically start winning every match you play with just your prior gen BH experience to hinge on; it just doesn't work like that in the majority of cases.
Addressing your team (spending the time writing mainly for insight to newer players who come across this):
- Your Registeel set is bad - both overall and against Cloak Imposter which is more viable than it ever has been. I'll assume it's your sole improof to your Diancie-M set since everything else folds to Boomburst or gets harassed by (assumed) ExtremeSpeed with minimal chip. If Cloak Imposter safely comes in on Diancie, sure, your Registeel can come in on it, but what are you doing after? Imposter can just safely burn the 5 Boombursts forcing you to burn 2 out of 8 recoveries while you do pathetic damage with Shackle, Axe, and Mortal Spin. Even if your Diancie is AoA, which I'm assuming it is, Imposter can just find an opportunity to come in on your Registeel and recover for free. Overall, it looks like the copied Cloaked Registeel just sits on everything else on your team aside from MMX who has to worry about coming in on a Shackle or, even worse, a Mortal Spin. It's also just bad into other Cloak guys and because you're using Flash Fire over Well-Baked Body/Primordial Sea.
- What's up with the MMX set? Also looks like a bad set. No clue what that ability could possibly be, but Bitter Blade just isn't a good move, especially on MMX; you cover pretty much the same if not more ground by using something like Drain Punch (Triage?), and you outdamage and thus replenish more HP. Against Ghosts and Poisons, you're clicking Lumina Crash anyway. Also doesn't particularly like Cloak FC mons that can withstand Lumina Crash. Either way, I'm not fond of VD MMX without Poison Heal around unless it's Guts or some weird FC setup shit or some cheese Serene Grace strats. AoA Choice Band + damage amp or mixed MGuard/TC otherwise.
- Again, going to assume Diancie is AoA with FakeSpeed, Boomburst, V-Create (judging by the FF Registeel). I don't think FakeSpeed has been good since like, Gen 6 or maybe Gen 7. Drop for Rapid Spin or, depending on how good your hazard control is on the rest of your team, Volt Switch or Strength Sap. Preferably the latter unless you decide to opt for a more faster-paced, offensive build. Again, Registeel is a fine Improof against Eviolite Imposter, but it's not very good into Cloak because while Boomburst does more if Imposter hard switches into it, you fail to poison Imposter with Mortal and fail to threaten any immediate damage against it since we obviously don't have Anchor Shot if it safely comes in on Diancie.
- Not addressing too much of the rest of the team since it's mostly unrevealed. Looks like FC on the Flyceus. Not a fan. If you lack Cloak, it has issues coming in on Lumina Crash from MMX; if you lack boots, it have issues coming in on rocks in a Stone Axe meta as well as not having a stable improof to your own MMX - especially if you're matched vs., you guessed it, Cloak Imposter. Pretty sure Tina should have Griseous Core to be unknockable. Not very good either way. Along with making Tina unknockable in prior gens, it had the nice bonus of giving an extra boost to Spectral Thief or Core Enforcer which this gen lacks. Don't think Bitter Malice really cuts it. I still find Giratina's overall viability questionable outside of fat builds.
Also, I'm not sure why you'd share a replay of you trashing someone for using legal strategies you don't like. Not a good look. I agree with the above; you've been behaving like this for too long, and you deserve a permanent lock on PS! if not a permanent ban from the forums.
While the meta is gone, I still think there are some cool ideas here that maybe can be applied in the new meta, but because of the very short ladder period for this non Tera meta, I won't say anything about it, besides the fact I think Tera ban was a mistake, and Tera helped shore up more matchups than it hurt.
Only short note for each team probably.
Pre Tera ban
I wanted to use Iron Hands and uh, I think this was the best attempt for it. Spread paras, profit.
Using Horoark to improof Ghostceus and also itself except against Covert Imposter.
Using Jaw Lock to suddenly trap and passing boosts with Imprison + Haze and Power Trip was fun while it lasted. Roar of Time so imposter would just give Zacian free setup.
Pretty standard with Palkia-O improofed by Zacian.
Wanted to try Palafin-Hero. Not good.
Haxed TTTech to hell with this. Rip Meloetta-P, now Lopunny Mega will do it in your stead.
Simple team built around Normalize Pult.
Always play dirty with Serene Grace Dire Claw (also helped by TTTech thinking they were Good As Gold). Improofed with the jankest of mons, Shield Dust Eternatus.
Post Tera ban
Ray's biggest problem is being slow, so I invented a way to support it, Mold Breaker Web improofed with Ability Shield Bounce, with Knock Off Dialga-O in case opponent has one.
Tried using both wallbreakers that are both improofed by a mon.
I absorbed TTTech's structure and made one with my flavor. Dual SNR with Giratina-O nuking opposing Scales for Ghostceus, while Blissey uses opposing Ghostceus itself. 3 Spooky Plates.
A modernization of my previous Normalize team, this time doubling down on it to make sure nothing escapes it. Also Thunder Cage spam.
Built around Gholdengo basically. Added Gigaton Hammer cause I realized I was weak to Flare Boost Flutter.
Calyrex-Ice lures Dondozo, Trick and trap it with Shackle, also improofs Bundle.
Another structure with Web. Sticky Web + Court Change so that not even Bounce can stop it. Imposter can Court Change as well, that's why Chansey also has it to outlast the PP. Just needs a bit for Hoopa-U to completely break things.
Why yes, I just brought full dex Mewtwo-Y set into this, how could you tell? A seemingly garbage team with 3 Regen that Imposter can just feed on but as the match vs RoFnA went, you can see that's not the case at all.
Inspired by Zane's dual Gorilla structure.
Weird Ray set with the first and last Azu you will ever see.
Dual Desolate Land will break through all, even resists like Giratina will eventually run out of PP, except ours cause it has Regen.
Some takes on stuffs I think applicable to the new meta.
Only short note for each team probably.
Pre Tera ban
I wanted to use Iron Hands and uh, I think this was the best attempt for it. Spread paras, profit.
Using Horoark to improof Ghostceus and also itself except against Covert Imposter.
Using Jaw Lock to suddenly trap and passing boosts with Imprison + Haze and Power Trip was fun while it lasted. Roar of Time so imposter would just give Zacian free setup.
Pretty standard with Palkia-O improofed by Zacian.
Wanted to try Palafin-Hero. Not good.
Haxed TTTech to hell with this. Rip Meloetta-P, now Lopunny Mega will do it in your stead.
Simple team built around Normalize Pult.
Always play dirty with Serene Grace Dire Claw (also helped by TTTech thinking they were Good As Gold). Improofed with the jankest of mons, Shield Dust Eternatus.
Post Tera ban
Ray's biggest problem is being slow, so I invented a way to support it, Mold Breaker Web improofed with Ability Shield Bounce, with Knock Off Dialga-O in case opponent has one.
Tried using both wallbreakers that are both improofed by a mon.
I absorbed TTTech's structure and made one with my flavor. Dual SNR with Giratina-O nuking opposing Scales for Ghostceus, while Blissey uses opposing Ghostceus itself. 3 Spooky Plates.
A modernization of my previous Normalize team, this time doubling down on it to make sure nothing escapes it. Also Thunder Cage spam.
Built around Gholdengo basically. Added Gigaton Hammer cause I realized I was weak to Flare Boost Flutter.
Calyrex-Ice lures Dondozo, Trick and trap it with Shackle, also improofs Bundle.
Another structure with Web. Sticky Web + Court Change so that not even Bounce can stop it. Imposter can Court Change as well, that's why Chansey also has it to outlast the PP. Just needs a bit for Hoopa-U to completely break things.
Why yes, I just brought full dex Mewtwo-Y set into this, how could you tell? A seemingly garbage team with 3 Regen that Imposter can just feed on but as the match vs RoFnA went, you can see that's not the case at all.
Inspired by Zane's dual Gorilla structure.
Weird Ray set with the first and last Azu you will ever see.
Dual Desolate Land will break through all, even resists like Giratina will eventually run out of PP, except ours cause it has Regen.
Some takes on stuffs I think applicable to the new meta.
- Scarf Regen: This is a concept from AAA and I think it should work just as well in BH, if not better. The amount of pivot and hazard control in BH means it's easier to keep the Regen mon healthy. Case in point for me is my Scarf Groudon and Palkia-O in the above teams. They can surprise and KO mons like Flutter with Gigaton Hammer or Koraidon that is in Glaive Rush with Glacial Lance and Dragon Energy. Even outside of those mu, they are still useful to cripple mons, like my Palkia-O did against Scales Corv. However, do not use this with Arceus like I did cause Arceus can't Trick its Scarf away if opponent is holding a Plate.
- Wish support: Wish with Regen is handy to support nearly unwallable mons without enough longevity, like the above Touch Claws Hoopa-U, dual Desolate Land duo and Rayquaza. Perhaps more viable in new meta with the vast number of mons?
- Lure trappers: Should be much less effective in a wide open meta, but once it settles, you can capitalize on walls, especially those that run Flip Turn/Volt Switch with Water/Volt Absorb and trap them.
- Sticky Web: Some mons are really only held back by low Speed, and when everything has max Speed, Web can define the speed game.
- Soft improof: This concept is very applicable to offense teams. Basically, you accept that your improof still gets 3HKOed by your mon, but still relatively safe due to your mon 2HKOing theirs, like Caly-I 2HKOing FC Dondozo with Power Whip. Your soft improof can also punish them further with Rocky Helmet or something else. Perhaps dual Regen to endlessly stall as improofs can be an option as well.
So clearing the air on my toxicity.
I have a deep issue with anyone who uses/supports imposter and seeing that was affecting my mental health, I haven't played in years. Since being back yesterday, I have played against imposter and I was seemingly fine until I encountered the double imposter sets more than 5 times which was too much for my psyche & I lashed out.
I built a team that I found interesting n wanted to see how it would do in the new meta n to see what would be the common sets that I would have to look out for. I don't only want to win, I want to have competitive matches with others that don't result in "oh I have imposter so this guy is easy" or seeing the same team being recycled because it wins a lot. If the 1st team I made after years of not playing is bad, then that's for me to tweak as I play along.
I wouldn't have such strong negative feelings towards imposter if whenever a suspect happens, it's because an ability/move that counters imposter is being banned which is why I listed these banned items: illusion, imprison, ability trapping.
I am not advocating for a ban on imposter nor for anyone to play to my liking, all I'm really asking for is a more balanced playing field where imposter is concerned. The ability to see your sets, steal your sets, counter your sets via switching, win speed ties & steal momentum are incentives enough for any competent player to choose imposter.
My replays were never meant to highlight my toxic reaction to imposter being used but the amount of depth that goes into improof team building and reading plays to give you a slight edge above imposter.
Small comments about my team
I have a deep issue with anyone who uses/supports imposter and seeing that was affecting my mental health, I haven't played in years. Since being back yesterday, I have played against imposter and I was seemingly fine until I encountered the double imposter sets more than 5 times which was too much for my psyche & I lashed out.
I built a team that I found interesting n wanted to see how it would do in the new meta n to see what would be the common sets that I would have to look out for. I don't only want to win, I want to have competitive matches with others that don't result in "oh I have imposter so this guy is easy" or seeing the same team being recycled because it wins a lot. If the 1st team I made after years of not playing is bad, then that's for me to tweak as I play along.
I wouldn't have such strong negative feelings towards imposter if whenever a suspect happens, it's because an ability/move that counters imposter is being banned which is why I listed these banned items: illusion, imprison, ability trapping.
I am not advocating for a ban on imposter nor for anyone to play to my liking, all I'm really asking for is a more balanced playing field where imposter is concerned. The ability to see your sets, steal your sets, counter your sets via switching, win speed ties & steal momentum are incentives enough for any competent player to choose imposter.
My replays were never meant to highlight my toxic reaction to imposter being used but the amount of depth that goes into improof team building and reading plays to give you a slight edge above imposter.
Small comments about my team
- I didn't know that almost every mon would have cover cloak when I started with that MMX set.
- I added spirit shackle (it was uturn before) on regi thinking imposters weren't running shed shell, I was wrong.
- FC Arceus-Fly was a niche counter to what I was expecting from Physical attackers n MMX improof
- Mega Diancie, Giratina & Mega Kyogre were just callbacks to a previous gen
i find this interesting i have been climbing the ladder for a while and i have yet to see shed shell imp. im not running registeel,but spirit shackle on magearna seems to have been beating every imp i come across. As for imposter its usally something ill just leave in my last slot and ill usally have a hard improof and a soft improof on my mons, u can use ur imposter chansey(or blissey) as a improofer too. Oh yeah im wondering what a mega kyogre is if you can enlighten me.
It's pretty good. The main niche is being a Dark-type that's not weak to Fighting (and has actual BST unlike Mega Sableye), making it a good stopgap against most mixed Mega Mewtwo X sets, and it has generally good enough bulk to do alright into stuff like Kartana and Pheromosa. Offensive sets don't really exist at the minute thanks to its old mixed utility/damage Aerilate sets not being great and Oblivion Wing not being in the game, so it's mostly defensive with Fur Coat and RegenVest.
Hi, I have decided to curse you all with a set that I came up with in probably 3 seconds while thinking about a new team that could handle the meta (this set will not be in it, lmao)
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature / Naive Nature
- Facade
- Lumina Crash
- Aura Sphere
- Shift Gear
Why?
Why not?
I'm a low ladder player, I'm entitled to create bad sets XD
Of course we could use better/with higher BP special moves as STABs.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature / Naive Nature
- Facade
- Lumina Crash
- Aura Sphere
- Shift Gear
Why?
Why not?
I'm a low ladder player, I'm entitled to create bad sets XD
Of course we could use better/with higher BP special moves as STABs.
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ahhh this it reminds me of the quick feet lunala set in gen 8 minSpD to improof and then astral barrage everything, Imma do some calcs if that can actually kill imposter
252 SpA Lunala Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Assault Vest Lunala: 652-772 (91.3 - 108.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
edited hp to 255 and assualt vest=eviolite so i think this might actually work but u shoukd have a back up improof just in case maybe a fakespeed set could work
I've recently started playing BH after the new update and it's really fun. It's seems to reward creativity and planning. That being said I'm still pretty nooby at it but this is the first time I've managed to make it half way up a ladder. This is the team I made. It definitely has issues and I did not look at any kind of building guides or anything so it has a lot of problem but I went in blind and just start building and adapting.
Arceus- (Arceus-Fairy) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Teleport
- Knock Off
- Salt Cure
- Mortal Spin
Registeal ya girl (Registeel) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Gentle Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Infestation
- Destiny Bond
- Trick
Princess Diancie (Diancie-Mega) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Shift Gear
X Gon Give it 2 Ya (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- V-create
- Glacial Lance
- Wood Hammer
Edgy Bacon (Yveltal) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Knock Off
- Infestation
- Destiny Bond
Gyarados-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Dazzling
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fillet Away
- Surging Strikes
- Flower Trick
- Wicked Blow
I'll definitely be reading over some of the guides I saw on here to improve this.
Arceus- (Arceus-Fairy) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Teleport
- Knock Off
- Salt Cure
- Mortal Spin
Registeal ya girl (Registeel) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Gentle Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Infestation
- Destiny Bond
- Trick
Princess Diancie (Diancie-Mega) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Shift Gear
X Gon Give it 2 Ya (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- V-create
- Glacial Lance
- Wood Hammer
Edgy Bacon (Yveltal) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Knock Off
- Infestation
- Destiny Bond
Gyarados-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Dazzling
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fillet Away
- Surging Strikes
- Flower Trick
- Wicked Blow
I'll definitely be reading over some of the guides I saw on here to improve this.
https://pokepast.es/b60eee9caa492287 hey y’all I recently got into bh with the update (Kyu b looked fun to build around) and I wanted to share my stuff with the wonderful people here
star of the team.
Bh classic. The moves don’t matter too much but glare is good for para spread, slow pivot with parting shot is nice and there’s stone axe if I really need to set rocks with chansey.
God I love this fellow. Bullet punch is a nice way to pick off frailer things. Power whip over flower trick for the bp boost. Gigaton hammer dents most things as usual.
My improof for and as well as a mediocre mixed 
check and 1/2 of my spinners.
Norm and snr ghost check, ice scales, spikes setter.
Regenvest, was originally kyogre but I ran into issues with electric mons. Forgoes knock for spin because I can’t fit a knock absorber. (Might replace spin or axe for nuzzle given how slow my breakers are)
(I forgot to put in the hard mus. Basically this team almost always dies into
lol #banwhen)
star of the team.
Bh classic. The moves don’t matter too much but glare is good for para spread, slow pivot with parting shot is nice and there’s stone axe if I really need to set rocks with chansey.
God I love this fellow. Bullet punch is a nice way to pick off frailer things. Power whip over flower trick for the bp boost. Gigaton hammer dents most things as usual.
My improof for
and as well as a mediocre mixed check and 1/2 of my spinners.Norm and snr ghost check, ice scales, spikes setter.
Regenvest, was originally kyogre but I ran into issues with electric mons. Forgoes knock for spin because I can’t fit a knock absorber. (Might replace spin or axe for nuzzle given how slow my breakers are)
(I forgot to put in the hard mus. Basically this team almost always dies into
lol #banwhen)
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Just posting my current thoughts on the meta, but i'm pretty sure that Protean needs to go. Its capacity for enabling mixed attackers that just spam neutral moves is insane, and even with Deoxys-A gone, the majority of things in a similar stat range (MMX and Deo-N primarily) can hit basically the same ranges. Here's a set i've been having a lot of success with recently:
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Gigaton Hammer
- Astral Barrage
- Strength Sap
This is something I thought of before Deoxys-A was banned, but the way it plays is basically unchanged. Protean with longevity is absurdly scary when one of the most effective ways of keeping frail users out is forcing them to take massive amounts of damage to get anything done, and this packs enough killpower to the point where being sapblocked is virtually never a concern outside of being out-predicted. Astral Barrage is immensely spammable, even given that MMX's Attack is a lot higher, as it still has 154 SpA and there are just very few good Ghost resists (especially ones that don't just drop to CC). Gigaton bombs stuff like Sap Scales Arceus-Fairy that would otherwise wall you reasonably hard, and becoming Steel-type also has some cool defensive utility like blocking Mortal Spin. About the only consistent answer to this is Fur Coat Yveltal, and with allies like Kyurem-B and Kartana it's not very hard at all to offer good support for.
The core issue here is that Protean offers far too much mixed killpower to make walling it in the same way you would most other offensive mons reasonable. It can (and often does) turn interactions into a simple 50/50, where the cost of losing it (as the defender) is losing a Pokemon, and the reward for winning it is simply not being down; the Protean user still has follow-up options and can also switch out having lost practically nothing in the majority of cases. I think a Protean ban would be a better solution in this case (when compared to something like an MMX ban) as it erases the mixed attacker 2HKO guessing game in one simple action (no other ability offers this much damage potential and mixed potential, especially when it comes to neutral moves) and addresses the issue of "X has a very similar stat spread to the now-banned Y so all of the Protean Y users will just move to Protean X" that we're seeing with Deo-N and probably will see again if we banned it.
Most Protean mons can follow a similar format (running mixed and spamming Astral), although i've seen a couple of deviations with Band and Specs on the faster options like Deo-N and Mega Alakazam.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Gigaton Hammer
- Astral Barrage
- Strength Sap
This is something I thought of before Deoxys-A was banned, but the way it plays is basically unchanged. Protean with longevity is absurdly scary when one of the most effective ways of keeping frail users out is forcing them to take massive amounts of damage to get anything done, and this packs enough killpower to the point where being sapblocked is virtually never a concern outside of being out-predicted. Astral Barrage is immensely spammable, even given that MMX's Attack is a lot higher, as it still has 154 SpA and there are just very few good Ghost resists (especially ones that don't just drop to CC). Gigaton bombs stuff like Sap Scales Arceus-Fairy that would otherwise wall you reasonably hard, and becoming Steel-type also has some cool defensive utility like blocking Mortal Spin. About the only consistent answer to this is Fur Coat Yveltal, and with allies like Kyurem-B and Kartana it's not very hard at all to offer good support for.
The core issue here is that Protean offers far too much mixed killpower to make walling it in the same way you would most other offensive mons reasonable. It can (and often does) turn interactions into a simple 50/50, where the cost of losing it (as the defender) is losing a Pokemon, and the reward for winning it is simply not being down; the Protean user still has follow-up options and can also switch out having lost practically nothing in the majority of cases. I think a Protean ban would be a better solution in this case (when compared to something like an MMX ban) as it erases the mixed attacker 2HKO guessing game in one simple action (no other ability offers this much damage potential and mixed potential, especially when it comes to neutral moves) and addresses the issue of "X has a very similar stat spread to the now-banned Y so all of the Protean Y users will just move to Protean X" that we're seeing with Deo-N and probably will see again if we banned it.
Most Protean mons can follow a similar format (running mixed and spamming Astral), although i've seen a couple of deviations with Band and Specs on the faster options like Deo-N and Mega Alakazam.
Clause and Ban List:
The banlist keeps the "Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons. Here's our banlist for the BH9 Ladder:
"Pokemon"
Calyrex-Shadow
Deoxys-Attack
Gengar-Mega
Groudon-Primal
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Rayquaza-Mega
Regigigas
Shedinja
Slaking
(...)
Current Watchlist
["Moves"]
Lumina Crash
["Pokemon"]
History:
Date Nov 18, 2022 [Gen 9] Balanced Hackmons goes live on Pokemon Showdown! Initial banlist decision July 24, 2023 Terastallizing, Imprison, Substitute, Hadron Engine quickbanned. Miraidon and Gorilla Tactics unbanned. August 1, 2023 Dex changes are implemented, allowing virtually all Pokemon into BH. Dire Claw and Gorilla Tactics quickbanned. August 6, 2023 Mega Gengar quickbanned August 15, 2023 Mega Mewtwo Y quickbanned
I might not be an expert, but I'm sure you forgot to remove Mewtwo Y from the watchlist, and both removing Deoxys-Attack from the banlist and put it in the tier action list.
Also seriously keep an eye on lumina crash and Stone axe, those moves are clearly too centralizing, although I'm not sure if the latter is OP or not.
This guy is spitting. I didn't even know imprison was banned until I read this and this really says a lot about what the sentiment around imposter is, "ban all hard counters and let it roam free". This is like theres an actual shadow council, "Big Imposter", that keeps imposter strong. Too many people take me seriously but that latter sentence is a joke. But it is surprising to me that imprison is banned, a BH imposter counter staple.
I do agree that Chansey abuses the ability the most, but I think all pokemon with a high HP stat, at least higher than 150, should be restricted from using imposter, possibly Pikachu too with light ball.
BH SUSPECT #3: THE ENTIRE FUCKING HP STAT
i love it when people just look for the words on the banlist and make up their own story on how they got there (maybe that's something i can fix). imprison being banned is only tangentially related to imposter, being that the stupid simple + victory/fillet / imprison / haze sets' main purpose with imprison is to shut off haze; imp being shut off from this is a benefit but isn't the main reason you use imprison on that set. banned things that are being brought up aren't banned because they beat imposter; none of them are. imprison's listed above and illusion is banned because it's a hilariously stupid ability that forces me to guess whether the mega steelix in front of me is a choice band kyurem, nasty plot etern, or just a mega steelix that's being a u-turn bot.
i also don't understand where your claim of imprison being "an imposter counter staple" even comes from. this has quite literally never been the case and its only real use case in this manner is the silly-setup-move gen 9 stuff that got it banned; setup sets with imprison need to both sink a turn into using imprison and also can't have more than 1 attack if they want to heal (imprison + regen still ends up being imposter fodder if they have any slow pivots lol), and no-setup imprison mons doubly feel the consequences of having to sack a turn + also severely miss the coverage that they could be running that has a very reasonable chance of smashing imp hard anyway.
1 attacking move? What are you going to do against unaware? Or a type that resists (with FC or scales), or is just straight up immune.
While phrasing it like that is silly, yes. most ubers pokemon have a hp stat of 100-120 so 150 isn't that much higher. Imposter Chansey's insane bulk comes from the HP + eviolite, and Blissey has good bulk too even without eviolite.
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click power trip
click power trip
+4 252+ Atk Ting-Lu Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fairy: 390-459 (87.8 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
fairyceus needs to be fc sap or 0 chip damage sap specifically to live a hit. less bulky stuff like zacian obviously dies immediately. +def yveltal has a 50% chance to live one from absolute full
click power trip
i dont think the imprison fillet away stuff is very consistent and i never used it but it cheeses shit like nothing else, especially if you run it on random shit that cant even get revenge killed by espeed (at the cost of some of your power). like you can literally run it on incredibly goofy stuff like ghostceus
of course theres also the covert vdance/imprison/haze/power trip poisonceus (or any ceus really) that wins unless you instantly kill him, which is actually really difficult when you dont know the set and your opponent has prep like for instance dual screens
+6 252+ Atk Ting-Lu Power Trip (620 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Arceus-Dark: 313-369 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
any dark resist works, arc-dark works well too because of stored power
and that calc is with every stat at +6, if you let someone get to +6 on every stat, you lost already.
all this unaware discussion makes me want spectral thief back
also on imprison haze, heart swap exists
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Using an unaware dark resist is pretty damn restrictive given that they're all completely terrible mons. Not to mention that they will need to be able to respond after the fact. Strength Sap can be blocked by various means and if your unaware uses sap for recovery it won't even wall half the setup breakers. Phazing is consistently a bad option in BH and won't work if it's your opponent's last mon (which isn't hard to position on a HO cheese team).
People actually were running things like fur coat CottonPress Zama-C while imprison was legal. That mon is complete ass outside of checking Power Trip.
I'd say using either an unaware mon (historically terrible in bh outside of some of the earliest metas and unreasonable to fit on the vast majority of non-stall structures) or a defense boosting fur coat seems incredibly restrictive, not to mention that both need to resist dark and ideally resist psychics (which limits you to basically one type and a handful of dual types meaning your sets don't function because they're weak to all the non-imprison attackers).
Overall, the logic of "you can counter it so it's not broken" is extremely flawed and if you admit this logic any sort of anti-Imposter argument completely crumbles. If every team is forced into extremely exploitable and one dimensional hard counters to prevent a certain set from completely rolling over their team, that set is broken.
I didn't mean this, like at all. I think imposter is very broken and you can counter it. I'm just pointing out a weakness in imprison haze setup attack sets. does it make it any less broken? No.
Ting? Dark Arceus? Yveltal? ZamaC? Fairy Arceus? Defense is the most important stat because of power trip, the first 3 have a complete immunity to stored power. None of these are "completely terrible". The only one you can argue against is dark arceus, because its an arceus slot being used for a pretty below average typing.
The mons aren’t really the problem, forcing unaware on something is bad given how stuff like regenvest and furscales could do better. (and Zama c does not exist now)