(banning) Dynamicpunch

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g

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This thread mostly relates to PU but i feel like it is more appropriate if this gets posted here.

PU has had this problem for a while since one of the very prominent and better Pokemon, Machoke, often uses the move Dynamicpunch. The move itself isn't the only option Machoke has for a STAB (since Close Combat + Guts has a niche) but it is by far the most used option and it is because of the nasty confusion side effect.



Dynamicpunch has been around for a long while as we all know and when we asked SS almost a year ago about getting the chance to suspect it, and we weren't allowed to do that.
Partially because we were still looking for official recognition and didn't want to stir up drama and partially because Policy Review wasn't as active that time the issue kind of dropped out and remained in the back of our heads.

The PU council already agrees on the fact that Dynamicpunch on Machoke is obviously an uncompetitive move akin to Swagger (and Chatter on Chatot which is banned) since it directly affects the outcome of games but on everything else outside of golett and machop it is an extremely unreliable option that should see no use whatsoever. This plus the fact that is has been around for a while (Oglemi gave us the example of DPPt Machamp, mainly) is the most controversial part and we don't really want to ban the perfectly balanced Machoke.
The ban in itself wouldn't nerf Machoke sets that need a STAB move that doesn't drop Defenses since Cross Chop would be a fine alternative on No Guard movesets.
 

Bughouse

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If Chatter on Chatot is what is banned (not Chatot as a whole) in PU, then why couldn't you just do the same for DPunch without needing to make a Policy Review thread? This seems like a percectly good solution for PU.

I'm aware of the distribution argument that since DPunch isn't broken on Dusknoir or Ledian or whatever, that means the move isn't broken. But this seems to me to be a perfectly good exception to me when it's a move that has 50% accuracy aka unusable, unless fixed by the rare No Guard ability. The total list of mons that learn Dynamic Punch and have No Guard in PU is 3, 2 of which are not remotely viable. Do that basic subtraction and you get yourself back down to 1 user. And like Chatot, you should be able to therefore ban just the broken move that has "1" user in the tier.
 

Sam

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Chatter is an exception because it is literally only learnable by Chatot. Dynamic Punch has competitive aspects in being a 100 BP move which makes it different from Swagger.

I think in this scenario (Machoke + Dynamic Punch being an issue), Machoke should be the suspect. Dynamic Punch isn't broken on everything and actually maintains competitive merit, however small that may be. In addition, if you're going to ban a move for being uncompetitive I think that needs to be true in every tier where it is viable, and it's not getting banned any time in UU or NU.
 
There's been some discussion on this here, and the problem lies in the fact that Machoke itself is healthy for the tier, being a staple on bulkier teams and keeping major threats like Golem and Pawniard in check, that could otherwise be big problems for the tier. What makes it unhealthy and what's really just uncompetitive is the combination of Dynamic Punch + No Guard, which makes Pokemon that could be checks rely on 50/50s to even beat Machoke. When PU lost Throh and began using Machoke, people sort of tried to mimic what Throh did and use Guts Machoke, when it was never really a problem. When people started to use Dynamic Punch more and more is when Machoke became unhealthy and has even been brought up for a suspect because of it.
If Machoke is this big constraint in the tier where it's keeping other unhealthy things in line then you should consider banning Machoke and addressing the issues afterwards. This was a similar problem to Aegislash, as in keeping tons of stuff in check in an unnatural way.

Also what MDragon said.
 

trc

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There's been some discussion on this here, and the problem lies in the fact that Machoke itself is healthy for the tier, being a staple on bulkier teams and keeping major threats like Golem and Pawniard in check, that could otherwise be big problems for the tier. What makes it unhealthy and what's really just uncompetitive is the combination of Dynamic Punch + No Guard, which makes Pokemon that could be checks rely on 50/50s to even beat Machoke. When PU lost Throh and began using Machoke, people sort of tried to mimic what Throh did and use Guts Machoke, when it was never really a problem. When people started to use Dynamic Punch more and more is when Machoke became unhealthy and has even been brought up for a suspect because of it.
it really isn't healthy for the tier, the broken checking broken thing has been torn apart a ton but those mons would not be a problem without machoke (it is hardly even a pawniard check at all). there isn't a really a problem with banning machoke because it is not even dynamic punch on its own which makes it broken, having a good attack and knock off and sleep talk are part of it too, machoke is unhealthy on its own (despite what stratos saying is correct).
 

Bughouse

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Chatter is an exception because it is literally only learnable by Chatot. Dynamic Punch has competitive aspects in being a 100 BP move which makes it different from Swagger.

I think in this scenario (Machoke + Dynamic Punch being an issue), Machoke should be the suspect. Dynamic Punch isn't broken on everything and actually maintains competitive merit, however small that may be. In addition, if you're going to ban a move for being uncompetitive I think that needs to be true in every tier where it is viable, and it's not getting banned any time in UU or NU.
so if Chatot had a prevo, you'd have banned Chatot not Chatter? Where's the borderline between 1 pokemon learning a move and 3 (for argument's sake... unless you really want to count 50% accurate DPunch on other mons, but this isn't GSC)? If it's "It has to be exactly one Pokemon who learns it in order to ban the move, not the mon" then that's just incredibly stupid, imo.
 

Aberforth

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No but it was uncompetitive.

I dont care if they want to ban dpunch or ban machoke, I was just responding to bughouse.
 

atomicllamas

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so if Chatot had a prevo, you'd have banned Chatot not Chatter? Where's the borderline between 1 pokemon learning a move and 3 (for argument's sake... unless you really want to count 50% accurate DPunch on other mons, but this isn't GSC)? If it's "It has to be exactly one Pokemon who learns it in order to ban the move, not the mon" then that's just incredibly stupid, imo.
Of course the 50% Dynamic Punches count, they are proposing to ban the move, not the move + No Guard (a complex ban). The fact that Machoke is the only issue indicates that its not Dynamic Punch that is broken, it is Machoke's specific combination of Dynamic Punch + No Guard + whatever else distinguishes it from Machop / Golett. You can ban a move that's learned by more than one pokemon, it just has to be either a) broken on every mon (or every usable mon ie not machop or golett (swagger sunkern), there are usable PU mons that learn Dynamic Punch, they just don't use it cause, guess what, Dynamic Punch isn't broken) or b) uncompetitive (as is the case w/ OHKO / Swagger).

Edit @ above: Dynamic Punch is not uncompetitive, the most you could argue is that Dynamic Punch + No Guard is uncompetitive, but that wasn't what was proposed and is also an unnecessary complex ban.
 

Stratos

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isnt a move that is literally 100% outclassed except for its confusion effect uncompetitive? The only reasons to use it are because of distribution issues, which may be relevant to golett line or GSC but aren't relevant in PU, or because you're fishing for confusion, which I thought was pretty much considered to be uncompetitive. Nobody except Machoke uses the move because it's bad, but that doesn't mean it's not uncompetitive any more than it does for SuperSonic. The difference is DynamicPunch is enough of an issue to be worth altering our banlist for, where SuperSonic isn't.

hell, if anything, dynamicpunch + no guard is more competitive because it's less blind bullshit luck and more tactical forcing of switches. Still uncompetitive though, or at least, it's broken, and all other cases are uncompetitive, so between the two why are we keeping this shit around.
 

atomicllamas

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I mean I guess if you think any confusion inducing move is inherently uncompetitive. So far there is nothing to indicate that this is the case though, given confuse ray / supersonic were not even seriously considered in the swagger discussion. By the logic in the last paragraph, is Hurricane even more uncompetitive, not only having a miss chance, but also introducing luck by whether or not the confusion even happens?

Edit: to preemptively clarify, no Hurricane is not uncompetitive, the argument being posed, that the lower accuracy of Dynamic Punch on non-No Guard mons makes it more uncompetitive is really dumb. The lower accuracy of Dynamic Punch lowers the odds that confusion (the thing you can argue is uncompetitive) takes effect in a match, accuracy of a move the player is using is a risk reward situation completely in that players power. Hurricane's 21% chance to confuse is clearly not uncompetitive, supersonic's 55% chance to confuse is (at least in my opinion), not uncompetitive (there was also the whole +2 attack thing increasing confusion damage + foul play shenannigans involved in swagger). Dynamic Punch in a normal situation has a 50% chance to confuse the opponent. This comes back to Machoke, the only reason it is being considered for a suspect is because of No Guard + Dynamic Punch + not being absolute dong like other things w/ that in PU. The other factor in this situation is that NG DP pokemon in other tiers (ie Golurk and Machamp in NU and UU respectively) have never been viewed as an issue, which leads me to believe this is more of a Machoke issue than a Dynamic Punch issue.

Edit2: not preemptively cause took too long Oo
 
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Stratos

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I mean I guess if you think any confusion inducing move is inherently uncompetitive. So far there is nothing to indicate that this is the case though, given confuse ray / supersonic were not even seriously considered in the swagger discussion.
Well, they're certainly not competitive. I would hazard that the main reason those moves weren't banned with swagger is because nobody gave enough of a shit to ban them since they're so much less likely to win the game.

By the logic in the last paragraph, is Hurricane even more uncompetitive, not only having a miss chance, but also introducing luck by whether or not the confusion even happens?
No, because there are reasons to run hurricane other than its confusion chance (like the fact that it's way the fuck stronger than any other option). There is no reason at all to run dynamicpunch except confusion or a barren movepool—and the latter, while a legitimate competitive consideration, is completely irrelevant to PU, so basically no reason at all except confusion.
 
Doesn't this situation remind of Greninja x Protean? The only difference is that Machoke without DynamicPunch looks healthy for the tier while Torrent Greninja had not particular use in the tier. It's just a matter of what's better, a tier without Machoke (it is the mon who makes DynamicPunch an issue isnt it?) or a tier that accepts Machoke+DynamicPunch since a complex ban seems not doable
 

Anty

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Doesn't this situation remind of Greninja x Protean? The only difference is that Machoke without DynamicPunch looks healthy for the tier while Torrent Greninja had not particular use in the tier. It's just a matter of what's better, a tier without Machoke (it is the mon who makes DynamicPunch an issue isnt it?) or a tier that accepts Machoke+DynamicPunch since a complex ban seems not doable
It's quite a lot different, as Protean is what made Greninja good in the first place and without it, Greninja wouldn't be nearly as viable, whereas without Dynamic Punch Machoke can still be used as effectively. Additionally, Machoke (w/o dpunch) has a positive effect on the tier as it makes defensive teams notably more viable by checking a lot + providing an offensive presence.

I don't think this situation is comparable to others, like Blaziken/Greninja/Aegislash, as Machoke is an otherwise healthy addition to the tier just with an uncompetitive move, which can easily be replaced (removing speed boost/protean/king's shield completely changes the Pokemon). Blaziken and Greninja would not be nearly as relevant in OU without their abilities, and the abilities made the Pokemon broken and not uncompetitive, whereas Aegislash would drop a lot of viability without KS, and KS wasn't the only factor which made Aegislash broken.
 
So you're only trying to ban Dynamic Punch to keep other Machoke sets in the tier because its 'healthy' or whatever. This just seems greedy to me though since the logical thinking is that Dynamic Punch is only broken on Machoke, therefore Machoke is what you should ban. Just because other Machoke sets may be healthy for the tier doesn't mean you should keep it in, if one set is broken then the pokemon is broken and deserving of a suspect. The meta will change and adapt just like any other tier would after a ban.
 

DragonWhale

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lol if it was only a matter of a luck-based move being easily replaced, we'd have banned Scald long ago because you can easily replace it with Surf.
 

Josh

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Machoke and machamp (and machop rofl) all learn close combat, it's not like removing dynamicpunch is crippling them. They get to utilize a much better ability in guts and a more powerful STAB move. The only reason machoke in pu (and machamp in uu) even bother with no guard is to play with hax.

Dynamic Punch has competitive aspects in being a 100 BP move which makes it different from Swagger.
???

Dynamic Punch isn't broken on everything and actually maintains competitive merit, however small that may be.
It's competitive to opt to use a stab that's weaker in exchange for a free turn half the time? Seriously? Nothing bar machoke and machamp in oras ever uses dynamicpunch, so I don't see the competitive aspect there.

if you're going to ban a move for being uncompetitive I think that needs to be true in every tier where it is viable, and it's not getting banned any time in UU or NU.
Chatter is already banned in pu but not nu... ??
 
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Stratos

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lol if it was only a matter of a luck-based move being easily replaced, we'd have banned Scald long ago because you can easily replace it with Surf.
the difference is that burn isn't inherently uncompetitive, so moves that you only use to fish for burn aren't inherently uncompetitive. whereas confusion is inherently uncompetitive, so so are moves which you only use for confusion.

that's my take on it anyways. Looks like the main disagreement is whether confusion is inherently uncompetitive, which should probably be the focus of the debate.
 

Anty

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So you're only trying to ban Dynamic Punch to keep other Machoke sets in the tier because its 'healthy' or whatever. This just seems greedy to me though since the logical thinking is that Dynamic Punch is only broken on Machoke, therefore Machoke is what you should ban. Just because other Machoke sets may be healthy for the tier doesn't mean you should keep it in, if one set is broken then the pokemon is broken and deserving of a suspect. The meta will change and adapt just like any other tier would after a ban.
Why is it so strange that the tiering council want what is best for their tier? Wanting what is best for our tier is not being greedy, its our job as tiering council. For the record it isn't other Machoke sets that are healthy, it is any Machoke set with Cross Chop over Dynamic Punch, ie the same move other than not causing confusion. If you look in the past there have been many situations where only one set was broken, which didn't stop us banning smashpass or swagger. They are different situations, but that logic is still flawed.

lol if it was only a matter of a luck-based move being easily replaced, we'd have banned Scald long ago because you can easily replace it with Surf.
It's quite obviously not the same thing. Not only are the checks for dpunch rarer, but also the hax is blatantly not on the same level.
 
Why is it so strange that the tiering council want what is best for their tier? Wanting what is best for our tier is not being greedy, its our job as tiering council. For the record it isn't other Machoke sets that are healthy, it is any Machoke set with Cross Chop over Dynamic Punch, ie the same move other than not causing confusion. If you look in the past there have been many situations where only one set was broken, which didn't stop us banning smashpass or swagger. They are different situations, but that logic is still flawed.
Swagger was broken on several pokemon. Smashpass could be used on more than one pokemon. Is Dynamic Punch actually a problem on several pokemon? So far nobody has said that machop or golett have been causing problems.
 

DragonWhale

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the difference is that burn isn't inherently uncompetitive, so moves that you only use to fish for burn aren't inherently uncompetitive. whereas confusion is inherently uncompetitive, so so are moves which you only use for confusion.

that's my take on it anyways. Looks like the main disagreement is whether confusion is inherently uncompetitive, which should probably be the focus of the debate.
It's quite obviously not the same thing. Not only are the checks for dpunch rarer, but also the hax is blatantly not on the same level.
It's fishing for a 30% burn chance vs fishing for a 50% confusion self-hit. There's not much difference hax-wise going on here, you're just fishing either way.

And burn is just as detrimental to many pokemon as much as confusion is imo.
 
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