Banning philosophy revisited a.k.a. return of the revenge

[X5Dragon]

Blaziken would be uber anyway because he'd have Close Combat then, or Super Power (poor Breloom couldn't even get CC).

Also I had something in mind but it was posted in a slightly different matter so let me rephrase it in pokemon terms to make it crystal clear:

"Moves never make a pokemon uber, BST and abilities unfortunately do." I don't care if the non-broken ability version of the pokemon becomes the least used pokemon of all, it's about the OU-Uber boundary.

I also don't buy the "abilities are basic part of the pokemon". 95% of abilities (yay random statistics) are shared by other pokemon, and if the ability is exclusive to one pokemon only or the pokemon has only one ability then this whole argument is useless.

If you want to see how BST makes a different look at the example of Alakzam and Mewtwo, or abilities in the same vein Landrous and Excadrill.

In the end it's not my fault or your fault or anyone else's fault, it's Troll Freaks fault. If Swift Swim/Sand Rush only gave +1 speed then scarfers would have kept them in check and everything would be cool. Or if Serene Grace only gave an increase of 10% to secondary effects instead of x1.5 then FlinchHax Jirachi wouldn't even be spoken about.

Make no mistake this whole banning topic is about abilities and nothing but abilities.

Edit: OU already has this sort of ban in terms of DW abilities it just needs to be extended to broken abilities, remove complex bans and then everyone do the kirby dance

 

[Acritter]

Uber just means "better than other Pokemon". There is, functionally speaking, no difference between declaring OU to be our Standard tier and declaring UU to be our standard tier. It's a sliding scale of power, not a binary of "uber/not uber". If we didn't have anything strong enough to wall, say, Raikou, then Raikou would be uber, even though right now it's UU.

No shit that BST and abilities make a difference. We all know that. But movepool is important too. Would Darkrai be uber without Dark Void? I seriously doubt it. Most of its strength is in the ability to sleep switch-ins. You're also forgetting that many Pokemon share stats: look at the Pixies. Manaphy is uber despite having the same exact stats as Shaymin.

And most of all, you don't even REALIZE the reason most DW abilities are banned is that GAME FREAK HASN'T RELEASED THEM! It's not that we've declared them overpowered, it's that there's no legitimate way of getting them in the game!

 

[X5Dragon]

"uber/not uber".

Actually there is a difference. Uber pokemons are there because of static reasons, not because of usage, either it's insane BST, what we deemed as broken abilities or a combination of thereof. You can't use a pokemon all the way into ubers.

Ubers is a ban list.

Would Darkrai be uber without Dark Void?

Dark Void is just a slightly better Sleep Powder, good but hardly accurate (see Stone Miss and Focus Miss for details). Bad Dreams is what made it broken AND it's stats. That's the important part here, broken.

And most of all, you don't even REALIZE the reason most DW abilities are banned is that GAME FREAK HASN'T RELEASED THEM! It's not that we've declared them overpowered, it's that there's no legitimate way of getting them in the game!

When I mentioned DW abilities I meant that the mechanism to separate a pokemon with many abilities into different tiers is in place.

 

[Acritter]

Uber Pokemon are uber because they are at a certain level of power that we have deemed too strong, similar to how OU Pokemon are OU because people have decided that they're strong enough to use. The mechanism is different, but the motive is the same: how strong a Pokemon is determines what tier it ends up in.

Dark Void is AMAZING on Darkrai. Sleep Powder is already a high-demand move, and Darkrai's distribution makes it even better. Bad Dreams is worthless. Nobody cares about it. Most of the time the sleeping Pokemon won't even be switched in. Congratulations, you got neutral SR damage on one Pokemon. THAT'S gonna be a big blow. No, it's the fact that Darkrai can reliably outspeed Pokemon, including its "counters" (aside from Primeape), and put them to sleep, and use the switching time to gain momentum in the form of Nasty Plot. Without Dark Void, it would be many times harder to switch Darkrai in to start your sweep.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Uber Pokemon are uber because they are at a certain level of power that we have deemed too strong, similar to how OU Pokemon are OU because people have decided that they're strong enough to use. The mechanism is different, but the motive is the same: how strong a Pokemon is determines what tier it ends up in.

No, that's not correct. There's two different types of tier, there're ban lists and usage tiers. Ubers is a ban list, and OU is a usage tier, so you shouldn't compare them. You can compare Ubers to BL, and OU to UU. But for a Pokemon to be in Ubers, it needs to be broken in OU, and for a Pokemon to be in OU list it needs to have a certain amount of usage in the metagame, so they're not really similar like that.

 

[Woodchuck]

The difference is that "power level" is extremely difficult to measure objectively. Since we are actually more concerned with the centralization of the metagame rather than the subjective 'strength' of every Pokemon, the usage percentage of the Pokemon in OU is a better index for determining tiers.

 

[Acritter]

No, that's not correct. There's two different types of tier, there're ban lists and usage tiers. Ubers is a ban list, and OU is a usage tier, so you shouldn't compare them. You can compare Ubers to BL, and OU to UU. But for a Pokemon to be in Ubers, it needs to be broken in OU, and for a Pokemon to be in OU list it needs to have a certain amount of usage in the metagame, so they're not really similar like that.

Usage is based on power. If a Pokemon is powerful, more people will use it.

Banning is based on power. If a Pokemon is powerful, more people will clamor for it to be banned.

There's no difference whatsoever. It's just the mechanism by which they get relegated to the different tiers, not the cause for them ending up in those tiers.

Well, okay. I take that back. There's one difference, and it's in versatility. Occasionally, we get Pokemon so versatile they can work on any team, and so their usage outstrips their power. Scizor is the primary example of this. But in general, this is a very good model.

 

[Jimera0]

Usage is based on power. If a Pokemon is powerful, more people will use it.

Banning is based on power. If a Pokemon is powerful, more people will clamor for it to be banned.

There's no difference whatsoever. It's just the mechanism by which they get relegated to the different tiers, not the cause for them ending up in those tiers.

Well, okay. I take that back. There's one difference, and it's in versatility. Occasionally, we get Pokemon so versatile they can work on any team, and so their usage outstrips their power. Scizor is the primary example of this. But in general, this is a very good model.

I cannot help but to say this, but this is flagrantly wrong. Sorry, but usage is NOT based on "power". It's based on utility. How easily a Pokemon fits onto teams and how effectively it carries out the role it plays are the factors that REALLY affect usage. Scizor, Dragonite, Heatran, and more are all outclassed by other Pokemon in terms of power, but their versatility and the effectiveness with which they fill their roles is what puts them at the top of the ladder. You can fit those three (and others in the top 10) onto just about any team, and they will perform their role well. THAT is why they are used so often.

Things like Celebi, Tentracruel and Starmie aren't very powerful, but they fill their roles very well and the niches they fill are often required for most teams. Pokemon that fill multiple niches at once frequently are used too, such as Forretress who rapid spins and sets hazards. "Power" only plays a factor for sweepers, and in that case even then it's outstripped by utility and versatility. This is why Dragonite and Scizor outpace brutes like Terrakion in standard usage stats.

So, claiming that usage stats are a measure of power is utter bullshit. The idea that we ban based purely on power is absolute bullshit too. Obviously Deoxys-S wasn't packing massive guns, but we banned it nonetheless. Why? ITS UTILITY. Saying that it's all based on power is a GROSS oversimplification of how the metagame works.

 

[The QWAZ]

So, claiming that usage stats are a measure of power is utter bullshit. The idea that we ban based purely on power is absolute bullshit too. Obviously Deoxys-S wasn't packing massive guns, but we banned it nonetheless. Why? ITS UTILITY. Saying that it's all based on power is a GROSS oversimplification of how the metagame works.

I do agree with what you said about usage stats not equaling power and recently this thread has dissolved into that. @ everybody who is going on about usage= power ect. Yes, allot of pokemon are used for power but what use is power if you are slow, have bad defenses or no movepool, look at kingler and marowak these pokemon have huge attack stats yet they linger down in NU, why due to their lack of versatility, move-pool, and... well everything. While certain shit is obviously broken is OU like groundon or arceus due to their power what about wobb last gen or blaziken in the recent DW ban, they were both overpowered because of how well they supported their team (albeit indirectly in blaziken's case).
P.S ubers is a tier, it started out as a ban-list but evolved into a fully fledged metagame

 

[Razza]

I play on PO nowadays but I've played extensively at smogon fr about a year and these two servers follow eachother almost religiously when it comes to bannings and their policies (also the fact my PO forum alt has like 1 post) making any change here will effect both servers given time.

Anyhow past is past, no use discussing it, the future however is very clear, no more complex bans, no more ban an entire Pokemon because of one overpowered ability, it's the past.

The new way is gonna be ban sand veil Garchomp to uber, rough skin chomp is OU. I don't care how much programming it takes, it is doable and it's a one time effort, it's ridiculous how the PO programmers have taken the complex ban solution as "well that patches the hole" instead of "this is a temp solution until we figure a permanent fix".

Second is the toleration of users screaming hax and hurling insults (battle rage) whenever a critic or 10% status happens using a certain move. I'm guilty of I and I'm sure some noob out there has a log of me raging because of something similar and keeping it as a trophy. It's not a newbie thing, most people are convinced that these effects are unfair disregarding the fact that people do use these moves or choose them in the first place over other similar moves because of these effects. Zero-tolerance policy should be implemented to stomp out this behavior for good.

Less important on my list is a call to implement a para clause. It has an widespread, 100% spammable move, unlike sleep this cripples the mon for the remainder of the battle and in OU of all places a para Pokemon is good for only taking that Draco Meteor and bringing relief to its user by dying (or the opponent is super smart to detect a potential fodder toss and instead bring a setup user and then your really screwed). It is comparable in every way to spore and sleep and arguably much more used, much more devastating and has better users then say spore. Jirachi in particular comes in mind.

My 0.02$.

This post here is why we have experienced tiering leaders making the calls and not any old player.

The reason complex bans aren't desirable is because we strive towards a simple a ban list and as few bans as possible. Complex bans on the whole tend to undermine these principles. However I would actually argue that the drizzle swsw ban helps to keep the banlist as simple and small as possible as the alternative would be whole playstyles banned or multiple swift swimmers banned from OU and all tiers below. Aldarons proposal was a "one off" ( the possibility of a sand veil + sand stream ban has been removed btw) ban, and was also a ban which had great positive impact on the metagame and I don't think it should be used as an argument to lobby for further complex bans which would most likely prove detrimental to the metagame or the simplicity of our banlist if implemented. Also Aldarons proposal is a complex ability ban which is completely different from any "cross category" bans such as ability + move or ability + pokemon which would let definitely open us up to a slippery slope if we went down this path.

Thats what I think, but at the end of the day what I think isn't worth much as it's the tiering leaders who call the shots, which is definitely a good thing as some of the stuff in this thread is complete garbage.

 

[Tobes]

This is painful. Nothing useful / new is coming out of this so I'm just ending it.

Also X5Dragon I have no idea what you're smoking but we really don't give a fuck about how PO tiers. We do not try to emulate it. Banning policy is not going to change just because PO does something different.

I wish serious suggestions of banning Thunder Wave were funny but really they just make me die a little on the inside.