Hello. First time posting here.
So, I am currently part of the tiering council of 1v1. We are a metagame that has been radically affected by the shift from Gen 7 to Gen 8 and the introduction to Dynamax and Gigantimax forms. While the discussion within the 1v1 community has been one of interest for an eventual Dynamax suspect test, we as a council are waiting for the actions of the more established metagames to pan out, and as such, we have begun to make decisions concerning Gen 8 1v1 on the assumption that Dynamax will remain in the tier for at least a nonzero amount of time.
However, we have inevitably come up with an issue concerning which Pokemon should be quickbanned from the tier, and which should be preserved. The one forefront candidate for an immediate quickban is Alcreamie, or, more specifically, its Gigantimax form, which can heal itself to 100% of its health when using its Gmax Finale move. In 1v1, combined with the inherent unpredictability of dynamaxing/gigantimaxing, this is absolutely broken, and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. (CLARIFICATION: Yes I know whether or not Gigantimax Alcremie heals 100% of its health is in contention, that’s just how its been working for the last few days. I’ve already made a bug report about it, and asking around has given me mixed information, and since i don’t own a copy of SWSH, I can’t test for myself. It also doesn’t relate to the overarching issue) However, when dealing with how to actually handle this, we came at a crossroads - should the base form be banned or the Gigantimax form? Is banning the Gigantimax form a complex ban on base form Alcreamie or not?
Now, the obvious comparison that can be made is the dynamic that Mega Evolutions had with their base forms; they were both indistinguishable in team preview, and technically the Mega Evolution was also just a specific strategy that could be but never had to be used with the base form in a specific tier (Mega Tyranitar in OU comes to mind). However, people who want the base form of a Gigantimax Pokemon to be banned point out that the specific strategy of Mega Evolution on a Pokemon was only enabled by a specific item, and therefore the item was the only thing that enabled the strategy of Mega Evolution to take place, and was not an inherent part of the base Pokemon itself. However, this point doesn't really follow with the dynamax/gigantimax dynamic when one remembers that not all base forms of a Pokemon who can gigantimax can dynamax, and vice versa, and that some of them don't have the capabilities to access the same strategies as the other. Basically, the notion that Gigantimaxing is a strategy that is inherent to the base form of a Pokemon is simply not true, when only specific kinds of base forms can Dynamax and only specific kinds of base forms can Gigantimax. So claiming that banning a Gigantimax Pokemon is a complex ban on Dynamax Pokemon doesn’t make any sense, when they are effectively two different versions of the Pokemon who inherently cannot ever use each other's individual strategies.
I also wrote some more points in the discord where this was being discussed, so I'll just copy and paste instead of reword the exact same stuff-
If we take into account the original intention of why we don't do complex bans, its to avoid situations where specific strategies that could be seen as 'overpowered' when used on a pokemon would be banned, instead of the pokemon itself, rooted in the flawed notion that 'you could use X pokemon if it didn't have A and B'. We don't ban Stealth Rocks + Spikes + Taunt + Deoxys-S, we ban Deoxys-S. The Pokemon Deoxys-S is the overarching problem.
In this instance, Alcreamie has two forms, one that can gigantimax, one that cannot. Only one of these forms presents an issue with the current metagame, and both forms are radically different in their role in and approach towards the metagame. If the intention was actually to do a complex ban, then we would want to implement a ban that would save Gigantimax Alcremie, because only that form presents an issue in the metagame. This is not what is trying to be done, we want to entirely remove the problem form of the Pokemon.
Dynamax Alcreamie should not even be considered in this, as Gigantimax Alcreamie does not have the option to dynamax, and thus can't use any of the strategies involved in Dynamax Alcreamie in the same way, and thus does not connect the two forms outside of the base form. They are literally differentiated in game, as in there are regular Alcreamies that can be used and then special Alcreamie catchable in max raids. Therefore, by only banning Gigantimax Alcreamie, it is by definition not a complex ban, since it is only banning the specific Pokemon that is causing the issue, if we acknowledge that Dynamax Alcreamie and Gigantimax Alcreamie are two unique Pokemon who's overall/inherent strategies mechanically cannot intersect with one another.
It follows the logic of tiering/banning a specific mega evolution of a Pokemon, because their overall strategies were relatively different from one another. Concerning the argument that this was only able to be done because an item was inherent in mega evolution, the fact that an item was how the Pokemon mega evolved was a convenient scapegoat, not the only factor that allowed mega evolutions to be tiered differently. If no such item existed, but was still an option that could be activated whenever the player desired, the tiering would have adapted to figure out how to get rid of something like Mega Mawile in Gen 6 OU without banning regular Mawile.
imo we should also be adapting with the change in mechanics and figuring out a consistent approach to avoid complex banning and also acknowledging that Gigantimax and Dynamax are unique + separate forms that should be treated differently
If you can't already tell, I'm of the opinion that gigantimax forms should definitely be treated separately from the dynamax forms, like mega evolutions were before them, but I will also admit that this is definitely not a clear cut decision to be made, as they are not enabled by any particular outside force, like an item, besides how they are caught, which doesn't matter in competitive.
So, that's concerning banning a Gigantimax form over the base form, but this also applies to usage based tiering as well. Should base forms and their dynamax variants of a Pokemon be locked into a higher tier than they ought to be because their Gigantimax form serves a much better role in the metagame, or potentially vice versa, or should they be tiered differently, because the strategies involved in the Gigantimax form doesn't inherently overlap with the Dynamax form?
I know this probably won't be relevant if dynamax/gigantimaxing is banned, but it could be relevant if dynamax is banned but Gigantimax remains, which I believe is an argument going on right now. And, in any case, dynamaxing will surely remain in some form in competitive Pokemon, no matter how the decision goes, and thus this question needs to be addressed as early on as possible.
I underlined the important bits
So, I am currently part of the tiering council of 1v1. We are a metagame that has been radically affected by the shift from Gen 7 to Gen 8 and the introduction to Dynamax and Gigantimax forms. While the discussion within the 1v1 community has been one of interest for an eventual Dynamax suspect test, we as a council are waiting for the actions of the more established metagames to pan out, and as such, we have begun to make decisions concerning Gen 8 1v1 on the assumption that Dynamax will remain in the tier for at least a nonzero amount of time.
However, we have inevitably come up with an issue concerning which Pokemon should be quickbanned from the tier, and which should be preserved. The one forefront candidate for an immediate quickban is Alcreamie, or, more specifically, its Gigantimax form, which can heal itself to 100% of its health when using its Gmax Finale move. In 1v1, combined with the inherent unpredictability of dynamaxing/gigantimaxing, this is absolutely broken, and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. (CLARIFICATION: Yes I know whether or not Gigantimax Alcremie heals 100% of its health is in contention, that’s just how its been working for the last few days. I’ve already made a bug report about it, and asking around has given me mixed information, and since i don’t own a copy of SWSH, I can’t test for myself. It also doesn’t relate to the overarching issue) However, when dealing with how to actually handle this, we came at a crossroads - should the base form be banned or the Gigantimax form? Is banning the Gigantimax form a complex ban on base form Alcreamie or not?
Now, the obvious comparison that can be made is the dynamic that Mega Evolutions had with their base forms; they were both indistinguishable in team preview, and technically the Mega Evolution was also just a specific strategy that could be but never had to be used with the base form in a specific tier (Mega Tyranitar in OU comes to mind). However, people who want the base form of a Gigantimax Pokemon to be banned point out that the specific strategy of Mega Evolution on a Pokemon was only enabled by a specific item, and therefore the item was the only thing that enabled the strategy of Mega Evolution to take place, and was not an inherent part of the base Pokemon itself. However, this point doesn't really follow with the dynamax/gigantimax dynamic when one remembers that not all base forms of a Pokemon who can gigantimax can dynamax, and vice versa, and that some of them don't have the capabilities to access the same strategies as the other. Basically, the notion that Gigantimaxing is a strategy that is inherent to the base form of a Pokemon is simply not true, when only specific kinds of base forms can Dynamax and only specific kinds of base forms can Gigantimax. So claiming that banning a Gigantimax Pokemon is a complex ban on Dynamax Pokemon doesn’t make any sense, when they are effectively two different versions of the Pokemon who inherently cannot ever use each other's individual strategies.
I also wrote some more points in the discord where this was being discussed, so I'll just copy and paste instead of reword the exact same stuff-
If we take into account the original intention of why we don't do complex bans, its to avoid situations where specific strategies that could be seen as 'overpowered' when used on a pokemon would be banned, instead of the pokemon itself, rooted in the flawed notion that 'you could use X pokemon if it didn't have A and B'. We don't ban Stealth Rocks + Spikes + Taunt + Deoxys-S, we ban Deoxys-S. The Pokemon Deoxys-S is the overarching problem.
In this instance, Alcreamie has two forms, one that can gigantimax, one that cannot. Only one of these forms presents an issue with the current metagame, and both forms are radically different in their role in and approach towards the metagame. If the intention was actually to do a complex ban, then we would want to implement a ban that would save Gigantimax Alcremie, because only that form presents an issue in the metagame. This is not what is trying to be done, we want to entirely remove the problem form of the Pokemon.
Dynamax Alcreamie should not even be considered in this, as Gigantimax Alcreamie does not have the option to dynamax, and thus can't use any of the strategies involved in Dynamax Alcreamie in the same way, and thus does not connect the two forms outside of the base form. They are literally differentiated in game, as in there are regular Alcreamies that can be used and then special Alcreamie catchable in max raids. Therefore, by only banning Gigantimax Alcreamie, it is by definition not a complex ban, since it is only banning the specific Pokemon that is causing the issue, if we acknowledge that Dynamax Alcreamie and Gigantimax Alcreamie are two unique Pokemon who's overall/inherent strategies mechanically cannot intersect with one another.
It follows the logic of tiering/banning a specific mega evolution of a Pokemon, because their overall strategies were relatively different from one another. Concerning the argument that this was only able to be done because an item was inherent in mega evolution, the fact that an item was how the Pokemon mega evolved was a convenient scapegoat, not the only factor that allowed mega evolutions to be tiered differently. If no such item existed, but was still an option that could be activated whenever the player desired, the tiering would have adapted to figure out how to get rid of something like Mega Mawile in Gen 6 OU without banning regular Mawile.
imo we should also be adapting with the change in mechanics and figuring out a consistent approach to avoid complex banning and also acknowledging that Gigantimax and Dynamax are unique + separate forms that should be treated differently
If you can't already tell, I'm of the opinion that gigantimax forms should definitely be treated separately from the dynamax forms, like mega evolutions were before them, but I will also admit that this is definitely not a clear cut decision to be made, as they are not enabled by any particular outside force, like an item, besides how they are caught, which doesn't matter in competitive.
So, that's concerning banning a Gigantimax form over the base form, but this also applies to usage based tiering as well. Should base forms and their dynamax variants of a Pokemon be locked into a higher tier than they ought to be because their Gigantimax form serves a much better role in the metagame, or potentially vice versa, or should they be tiered differently, because the strategies involved in the Gigantimax form doesn't inherently overlap with the Dynamax form?
I know this probably won't be relevant if dynamax/gigantimaxing is banned, but it could be relevant if dynamax is banned but Gigantimax remains, which I believe is an argument going on right now. And, in any case, dynamaxing will surely remain in some form in competitive Pokemon, no matter how the decision goes, and thus this question needs to be addressed as early on as possible.
I underlined the important bits
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