Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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- Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

- Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Musharna is not only outpaced, but it cannot switch in, nevermind defeat Espeon. Even if Musharna lives to use Imprison, Espeon is given at least 2 more turns to boost further and sweep.

The fact you're seriously suggesting a barely RU and NU viable Pokemon in the OU tier is slightly...disturbing.
My best OU team, which peaked at 1721, contained a Milotic, Ampharos, and Bronzong. MirrorMola, which peaked no. 6, contained an Alomomola. Don't act like at expert on what is or isn't 'viable'

Plus, the purpose of Musharna is to nip it in the bud, not switch in after massive boosts. Musharna learns boosting moves too, and could render Espeon next to useless.
 
My best OU team, which peaked at 1721, contained a Milotic, Ampharos, and Bronzong. MirrorMola, which peaked no. 6, contained an Alomomola. Don't act like at expert on what is or isn't 'viable'

I'll let you look up statistics and usages on what's viable or not. It's an objective point. Objectively, Musharna is not a check or a counter to a Baton Pass chain, and especially to Espeon. Objectively, bringing in a RU and NU Pokemon to deal with an entire OU archetype is ludicrous and absurd.

You're welcome to use Lvl 1 F.E.A.R Aron and call it viable, but in the 6th Gen OU metagame, Milotic, Ampharos, and Bronzong fall short and are outclassed, Milotic with only a small niche in RestTalk and Ampharos with a Mega. And the fact your team peaked only at 1721 says something.
 
Galvantula actually works pretty well against baton pass team
Scenario 1:Scolipede switches to prevent stuck web to their magic bouncer.Galvantula hits both Mega-Absol and Espeon with Bug Buzz. I know it OHKOs Mega-Absol, but does it for Espeon. Either way the Espeon dies to bug buzz and taunt and status moves run free.
Scenario 2: Scolipede stays in. Sticky web laid and breaks all the substitutes using thunder or bug buzz. Next lay pressure on it so it is forced to keep switching to reach of your offensive Pokemon's counter . Soon, no more speed boosts and the Scolipede is at too less health to pass more than 1 or 2 speed that would be negated by sticky web anyway


And don't give that that it's not viable in OU lecture

This is where mr mime actually has us. Bu it's frail and slow without boosts
 
I'll let you look up statistics and usages on what's viable or not. It's an objective point. Objectively, Musharna is not a check or a counter to a Baton Pass chain, and especially to Espeon. Objectively, bringing in a RU and NU Pokemon to deal with an entire OU archetype is ludicrous and absurd.

You're welcome to use Lvl 1 F.E.A.R Aron and call it viable, but in the 6th Gen OU metagame, Milotic, Ampharos, and Bronzong fall short and are outclassed, Milotic with only a small niche in RestTalk and Ampharos with a Mega. And the fact your team peaked only at 1721 says something.
#6. Alomomola. You could give me any team and I won't get very high as I'm a subpar battler, so that isn't an excellent comparison. Tiers are based on usage not usefulness. Remember when Donphan was OU not too long ago? And the defensive titan STEELIX is RU. Stop acting like an expert on viability, as Smogon Tiering isn't even based on it.
 
Galvantula actually works pretty well against baton pass team
Scenario 1:Scolipede switches to prevent stuck web to their magic bouncer.Galvantula hits both Mega-Absol and Espeon with Bug Buzz. I know it OHKOs Mega-Absol, but does it for Espeon. Either way the Espeon dies to bug buzz and taunt and status moves run free.
Scenario 2: Scolipede stays in. Sticky web laid and breaks all the substitutes using thunder or bug buzz. Next lay pressure on it so it is forced to keep switching to reach of your offensive Pokemon's counter . Soon, no more speed boosts and the Scolipede is at too less health to pass more than 1 or 2 speed that would be negated by sticky web anyway


And don't give that that it's not viable in OU lecture

More situational bias. Let me try. Scolipede actually stays in instead, gathers a free 3-4 Speed Boosts, and then passes.

Galvantula isn't a check or a counter to Baton Pass, Scolipede or even Espeon, and is no countermeasure to the archetype.
 
This is indeed a complex issue, and it may be boiling it down a little too much to say that "Full or mostly full Baton Pass teams are too problematic to be sustainable", however, I feel this is the most accurate as it deals with only the core of the problem. When we remove the heart of the issue, the other problems atrophy or die out completely.

Banning Baton Pass, however, is the worst possible outcome.

Let's take Scolipede for instance. I usually run it with BP, even on teams that I do not intend to run anything else with BP on.

Scolipede @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Poison Jab
- Iron Defense
- Protect

This is a bait and switch build. Protecting gets me a free speed boost, and I can choose to risk the Poison Jab- often for very heavy damage, or go ahead and switch out. Furthermore, I do not have to lead with this at all, and can build a pokemon to cover Scolipede's weaknesses and get a first hit to free up my chances to drop an Iron Defense and BP.

This is my proof to why Baton Pass is not innately bad. This is a supporting team member capable of delivering a hit should it need to.

Smogon is only willing to accept the existance of bp as long as it is a non factor to the metagame in the first place. It's fine only if every high level team beats it by default without even having to prepare against it on teambuilding. If there is a chance that the bp player can outsmart the "high level team" using spore or good switches, then bp is perceived as overpowered. Well, too bad, but bp is a playstyle, and it's already part of the metagame, like it or not. What you are trying to do is to custom tailor the metagame to your tastes and eliminate any playstyle you don't want to see being part of it. And that has one name, as defined by the famous play to win article: scrubism. And that's the opposite of being a competitive player.

I see I'm not the only person around here that sees the innate flaws of this system. Deny it all you want, however, this carries strong hints of being true and I have yet to see ANYONE say "well, you know what, by changing a few things here and there, this becomes a lot more viable". No, it's always "this dosen't fit with the metagame".

Metagame is not what you, nor the "higher" players think it should be, it's every tactic, move, pokemon, ability, and component in the game and the way they interact, and the popular combinations formed by naturally being good.

Galvantula actually works pretty well against baton pass team
Scenario 1:Scolipede switches to prevent stuck web to their magic bouncer.Galvantula hits both Mega-Absol and Espeon with Bug Buzz. I know it OHKOs Mega-Absol, but does it for Espeon. Either way the Espeon dies to bug buzz and taunt and status moves run free.
Scenario 2: Scolipede stays in. Sticky web laid and breaks all the substitutes using thunder or bug buzz. Next lay pressure on it so it is forced to keep switching to reach of your offensive Pokemon's counter . Soon, no more speed boosts and the Scolipede is at too less health to pass more than 1 or 2 speed that would be negated by sticky web anyway

Galvantula does not have the lasting power in any scenario to do much more than make it slightly annoy a BP team.

In all honesty, we don't need to prove counters, we've already been over that a full team of BP pokemon is too much.

Let's start at limiting it to 3 or 4. Should that prove not enough, drop that to 1-2.

viability

Most of this game is in a constant state of flux. Viability cannot be truly measured because something will always counter something else! Rather, we need to look at how HARD it is to counter something without being overspecific, and I'm pretty sure we've proven it- Musharna isn't going to start being that common, let's all face it. There's no balance there.

What is balanced is limits, not outright bans.
 
#6. Alomomola. You could give me any team and I won't get very high as I'm a subpar battler, so that isn't an excellent comparison. Tiers are based on usage not usefulness. Remember when Donphan was OU not too long ago? And the defensive titan STEELIX is RU. Stop acting like an expert on viability, as Smogon Tiering isn't even based on it.

The Pokemon listed are not useful in a metagame where they are outclassed or obsolete. They are not used in OU because they are outclassed and/or obsolete.
 
Galvantula actually works pretty well against baton pass team
Scenario 1:Scolipede switches to prevent stuck web to their magic bouncer.Galvantula hits both Mega-Absol and Espeon with Bug Buzz. I know it OHKOs Mega-Absol, but does it for Espeon. Either way the Espeon dies to bug buzz and taunt and status moves run free.
Scenario 2: Scolipede stays in. Sticky web laid and breaks all the substitutes using thunder or bug buzz. Next lay pressure on it so it is forced to keep switching to reach of your offensive Pokemon's counter . Soon, no more speed boosts and the Scolipede is at too less health to pass more than 1 or 2 speed that would be negated by sticky web anyway


And don't give that that it's not viable in OU lecture

TT;DR: Spam. Stop trying to use obvious stuff like taunt and just spam the crap out of your offensive moves instead. It works so often I don't even see why people bpther with obscure counter. The best counters are probably already in your team, and if they aren't, it's not unviable to build a team with them on it.
 
Firstly please stop bringing up obscure counters, and stuff like:
Except for every special attacker in the tier, which any offensive or balance or even semi-stall team have some of. Stuff like zard y, mega gardy and lando i.

Oh wait, you're gonna say the special attackers don't count because they don't completely shut down bp 100% of the time, right? Well too bad that's not how the game works. You people complain that bp is match up based, but it seems you want it to be match up based, because you invalidate any pokemon that doesn't beat the entire bp team before the match starts. Zard y doesn't count, before he doesn't give you free ELO against bp teams just by being on the team, he actually requires a bit of skill and prediction to win.

The problem is that smogon is only willing to accept the existance of bp as long as it is a non factor to the metagame in the first place. It's fine only if every high level team beats it by default without even having to prepare against it on teambuilding. If there is a chance that the bp player can outsmart the "high level team" using spore or good switches, then bp is perceived as overpowered. Well, too bad, but bp is a playstyle, and it's already part of the metagame, like it or not. What you are trying to do is to custom tailor the metagame to your tastes and eliminate any playstyle you don't want to see being part of it. And that has one name, as defined by the famous play to win article: scrubism. And that's the opposite of being a competitive player.

Also, for the guy who said prediction is not skill, the entire chess community would like to have a word with you. Prediction is a skill and it's part of most competitiive games. It's about knowing the metagame enough to know what players are most likely to do, and manipulating them to do what you want. Poker players do that all the time, as do chess players and any sort of competitive player.
I already posted about the special attackers, post to refute that if you're gonna post. They're not autowinning. Oh, and please, insulting the integrity of competitive players isn't getting you anywhere.

Okay, so here's the method I think is best for dealing with this (I don't think anyone sane at this point is against a BP nerf):

Ban multiple Baton Pass users on the same team

This option is very popular, and for good reason. The goal is just to limit the amount of Baton Pass users on one team to the point where full BP is impossible. This solves the problem pretty easily. I think the largest advantage to this option is simplicity, as it avoids clashing with any legitimate, normal, non-broken uses of BP. For example:

1) Stored Power + BP

What's inherently bad about running a Pokemon with Stored Power + BP? So, you mean to tell me that CM + Stored Power + BP + filler Espeon is broken on its own? I really don't think this is the case, nor the entire source of the problem. You can run a BP team and get as many sweeps with Sylveon's Hyper Voice as Espeon's Stored Power depending on the match, from my experience. Should we ban both? Or both together? I don't think so.
2) Speed Boost + BP

This is one of the worst options IMO, because there is nothing inherently bad about Speed Boost + BP Scolipede, the use of which could be considered legitimate paired with slower physically offensive Pokemon that are vulnerable to revenge kills. It is partially the source of why full BP is so ridiculous, but this option is not worse sacrificing the legitimate uses.
3) Magic Bounce + BP

This option just denies Espeon a very good, legitimate option for it while, as BKC has stated, not even fixing the problem; BP wouldn't be quite as good, but it would still be a terror against virtually any team without a phazer, most significantly offense. It'd still be just as cheap against these teams, and they could even just run Mega Absol and still keep their Magic Bounce + BP benefits. Banning the Magic Bounce user with BP is really just a band-aid, the playstyle would still be cancerous, and you kill Espeon's viability completely.
4) Speed Boost + Magic Bounce + BP

The main reason that I'm against this option is because it's unnecessarily complex. So you ban the combination of two abilities on two Pokemon with the move Baton Pass on the same team? That's ridiculously convoluted, and also says that me using, say, dual screens Espeon and then BPing out to Scolipede to get off boosts more easily to pass is an illegitimate strategy. It's not the greatest concept anyone's ever thought of, but that's saying this strategy is illegitimate/broken.
With these ideas refuted, what is the cap we should choose? There have been numbers all over the place, from 1 to 4 to the whole team. If you only a place a cap that 4, 5, or all members of the team can have it, you don't actually fix the problem. To test this, I decided to create a BP team with the given amounts (4 BP mons, 5 BP mons), and then just stick offensive crap on. Scoli + Espy + Vap + Sylv + Smeargle is still cheap as all hell, you don't even need the last slot for your BP team. If you forfeit Smeargle the chain can still work with the Scoli + Espy + Vap + Sylv BPing core. Sure it's a bit worse, but it still works in basically the same fashion and you don't really fix the problem. 1 BP user per team is too extreme, IMO. With that a cap of 2 or 3 users seems optimal. My concern about a 3-mon cap stems from Srn9130's post:
Srn9130 said:
All right, I've been hearing a lot of people saying that limiting the users of baton pass to 3 per team is what we should do.
However, would that even change the match up vs. stall?
In theory, as long as you have a spore smeargle for quagsire, wouldn't even 3 users of baton pass be able to totally beat the crap out of stall just like 6 users could? It's just a hypothesis, but if you were to just run Scolipede (perhaps with megahorn for darks, with iron defense) and Espeon (stored power, baton pass, sub, cm) and Smeargle (quiver, spore, baton pass, ingrain) how are you changing this crucial match up at all? It feels to me that you can just easily beat the crap out of stall, and such a respectable style doesn't deserve to drop in popularity just because only 3 pokemon are necessary to have a guaranteed win against any defensive team at all. What will stall teams be able to do against a simple core of Scolipede+Espeon+Smeargle?
So I actually decided to test 3-mon BP vs a bog-standard stall team. Basically what happened in that match was CM Clef just kinda destroyed the Scoli + Espy + Smeargle team. I figured out with some others that a double-boosting Mr. Mime with Encore lets you get around this and w/e else stall has to threaten you. But even then, now you have really nothing to deal with offense. So basically a 3-mon BP core still gets the matchup win vs stall. If we think this is ok (that you can still fish for the matchup win vs stall with BP), then a 3-mon cap is appropriate. If not, we ought to go with a 2-mon cap. Where I stand: No more than 3 Pokemon should be able to carry BP on a team. BP is nerfed to the point where it utterly fails vs anything but full stall, which is more than enough that you can never risk running it. That's more than a big enough nerf to the playstyle; it's no longer really viable or effective.
 
Jukain

Of course they are not auto winning, that's exactly my point. You're never going to auto win against baton pass unless you pack some ultra obscire thing. So what? Should we ban baton pass teams because you can't easily auto win against them?

Show me one viable pokemon who can easily auto win against every deosharp team. If you can't do that, then I propose that we ban deosharp, because by the definition of this thread, something is overpwered if it's not easy to auto win against it.
 
Jukain

Of course they are not auto winning, that's exactly my point. You're never going to auto win against baton pass unless you pack some ultra obscire thing. So what? Should we ban baton pass teams because you can't easily auto win against them?

Show me one viable pokemon who can easily auto win against every deosharp team. If you can't do that, then I propose that we ban deosharp, because by the definition of this thread, something is overpwered if it's not easy to auto win against it.
See, the issue is that if you don't autowin against BP, you autolose to BP. You never autolose to DeoSharp. That's the major distinction between BP and other playstyles that some people itt don't seem to get.
 
Maybe I'm trying too hard. And Over Zealous is well, over zealous in insulting supporters of Baton Pass.
I actually agree with the 3 baton passing mons nerf, but only as a last resort.

I simply encourage him to actual read the thread.

People didn't stop using Bronzong in OU because they were tired of using him; they stopped because he lost valuable resistances and became outclassed and obsolete.

Resorting to using RU and NU Pokemon to answer an OU archetype is utterly ridiculous. Especially when that answer is still no counter.
 
I don't see how Baton Pass is any more uncompetitive than any other team style. You can see them coming from a mile away and can dismantle them on turn 1 (KEY WORD HERE)with something like Talonflame, Greninja, Landorus, Genesect, etc. Your team isn't automatically locked in a set order, and even if you guess wrong on what they send out, you can use the first 3 turns to deal with the threat accordingly.

It annoys me when people say things like "it forces you to carry X in order to deal with Y" Isn't that true for literally every play style in the game? Autowin/Autolose is applicable to everything. No ones team is 100% the best in the world because everything loses to something. I have to carry something strong enough to wipe Venusaur off the map, and if I use talon flame I need something to remove rocks and deal with rotom-W. I need something to help cover my defogger so it can actually do its job, and then I need something to get rid of the thing on my opponents team thats laying the rocks. It's all part of the game. You can't cover everything, If you try to your team will be nothing but a jack of all trades mess. When it comes to proper team building your team needs an objective, and a plan of execution. You build a team to do specific things, or function under certain conditions.

HO - You blow through them
Balance - You blow through them somewhat but wear them down when you need to
stall - You wear them down till they die

there are plenty of options you can put on a team to deal with baton pass and also function well, and you don't have to dedicate half your team to deal with it. Lead with a sweeper of any kind. Priority attackers like talonflame have nothing to fear, and until custap is released for scolipede, neither does anyone else.




Also Add clefable to the list of pokemon who has a field day with Baton Pass teams (until it gets hit in the face by a MGarde stored power)

Well something i've been playing around with

Clefable @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Unaware
252 HP/252 Def

Psych Up
Cosmic Power/Calm Mind
Stored Power
Moon Blast/Flamethrower

Not incredibly reliable but with the right team this set has been pretty interesting. Many people don't really consider clefable a threat so hey why not boost against it right?

But it has a very useful niche with the ability Unaware and the move Psych up. With proper support (Screens/Passes/Etc) and the right checks to things like Aegislash, You can turn the opponents set up sweeper into your own set up fodder, and since alot of the boosting moves you'll be running into in OU involve physical attacks anyway, you can opt to go physical come pokebank when fable has Access to Move tutor moves


Stolen Catchphrase joined.
sizzerp joined.
Format:
OU (beta)
Rated battle

Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages
sizzerp's team:Greninja / Klefki / Kabutops / Clefable / Smeargle / Charizard
Stolen Catchphrase's team:Garchomp / Blaziken / Bisharp / Gardevoir / Cloyster / Gengar
Battle between Stolen Catchphrase and sizzerp started!

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Blaziken!

Go! Smeargle!
Turn 1

Blaziken has Mega Evolved into Mega Blaziken!

Smeargle used Sticky Web!
Sticky Web started!

The opposing Blaziken used High Jump Kick!
It's super effective! Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Smeargle lost 99.7% of its health!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 2
Stolen Catchphrase: i'm so happy my favorite pokemon got a mega evolution.

Smeargle used King's Shield!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
Smeargle's King's Shield activated!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack harshly fell!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 3

The opposing Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Smeargle used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 4
sizzerp: mine may get one
sizzerp: I pray
sizzerp: typhlosion Pls

Smeargle used King's Shield!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
Smeargle's King's Shield activated!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack harshly fell!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 5

Smeargle used King's Shield!
But it failed!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
Smeargle lost 0.3% of its health!

Smeargle fainted!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Stolen Catchphrase: that would be awseome.
Stolen Catchphrase: would would it look like?

Go! Klefki!
Turn 6

Klefki used Reflect!
Reflect raised your team's Defense!

The opposing Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 7

Klefki used Thunder Wave!
The opposing Blaziken is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
It's super effective! Klefki lost 51.9% of its health!
Turn 8

Klefki used Light Screen!
Light Screen raised your team's Special Defense!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
It's super effective! Klefki lost 48.1% of its health!

Klefki fainted!

Go! Clefable!
Turn 9
Stolen Catchphrase: typhloshion will most likely get one when pokebank comes out.as well as the other starters.

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
Clefable lost 19.3% of its health!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Blaziken's stat changes!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 10

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 11

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Blaziken's stat changes!

The opposing Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 12

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Blaziken's stat changes!

The opposing Blaziken used Fire Punch!
Clefable lost 19.0% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 13

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The opposing Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Your team's Reflect wore off!
Turn 14

Clefable used Stored Power!
It's super effective! The opposing Blaziken lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Blaziken fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
sizzerp: unaware

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Bisharp!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Bisharp!
The opposing Bisharp's Speed fell!
Turn 15
sizzerp: pretty underrated ability in the right circumstances
Stolen Catchphrase: that was a big derp move on my part.

Clefable used Moonblast!
A critical hit! The opposing Bisharp lost 78% of its health!

The opposing Bisharp used Iron Head!
It's super effective! Clefable lost 57.4% of its health!
The opposing Bisharp lost some of its HP!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Your team's Light Screen wore off!
Turn 16
Stolen Catchphrase: what does it do?

Clefable used Moonblast!
The opposing Bisharp lost 6% of its health!

The opposing Bisharp fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Gengar!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gengar!
Turn 17
sizzerp: ignores any and every stat boost

Clefable used Stored Power!
It's super effective! The opposing Gengar lost 88% of its health!

The opposing Gengar fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Stolen Catchphrase: holy crap.
sizzerp: and of course

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Gardevoir!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gardevoir!
The opposing Gardevoir's Speed fell!
Turn 18
sizzerp: Psych up copies them
sizzerp: and stored power gets 20BP for every 1 stat boost
Stolen Catchphrase: well my ass is getting handed to me.

Clefable used Stored Power!
It's not very effective... The opposing Gardevoir lost 31% of its health!

The opposing Gardevoir used Moonblast!
Clefable lost 32.2% of its health!
Clefable's Special Attack fell!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 19

Clefable used Moonblast!
The opposing Gardevoir lost 22% of its health!

The opposing Gardevoir used Moonblast!
Clefable lost 30.5% of its health!
Clefable's Special Attack fell!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 20
sizzerp: the SpA Drop >><
Stolen Catchphrase: i'm hopeful gardevoir will get more usage now that it's part fairy.

Clefable used Stored Power!
It's not very effective... The opposing Gardevoir lost 16% of its health!

The opposing Gardevoir used Moonblast!
Clefable lost 8.6% of its health!

Clefable fainted!

Go! Charizard!
Turn 21

Charizard used Dragon Dance!
Charizard's Attack rose!
Charizard's Speed rose!

The opposing Gardevoir used Psychic!
Charizard lost 57.7% of its health!
Turn 22

Charizard has Mega Evolved into Mega Charizard!

Charizard used Dragon Claw!
It doesn't affect the opposing Gardevoir...

The opposing Gardevoir used Psychic!
Charizard lost 42.3% of its health!

Charizard fainted!
Stolen Catchphrase: blaziken, gardevoir and garchomp are my top 3 faves.
sizzerp: MISCLICK
sizzerp: Lol

Go! Greninja!
Turn 23
sizzerp: eh oh well

Greninja's Protean made it the Fire type!

Greninja used Hidden Power!
The opposing Gardevoir lost 18% of its health!
Greninja lost some of its HP!

The opposing Gardevoir fainted!

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Cloyster!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cloyster!
The opposing Cloyster's Speed fell!
Turn 24
Stolen Catchphrase: it's rediculous how crafty people can be with protean greninja.

Greninja's Protean made it the Grass type!

Greninja used Grass Knot!
It's super effective! The opposing Cloyster lost 76% of its health!
Greninja lost some of its HP!

The opposing Cloyster fainted!

Stolen Catchphrase sent out Garchomp!
The opposing Garchomp's Speed fell!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Garchomp!
Turn 25
sizzerp: i personally only think 6 moves are viable on him
sizzerp: nothing more nothing less
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Greninja's Protean made it the Ice type!

Greninja used Ice Beam!
It's super effective! The opposing Garchomp ate its Yache Berry!
The opposing Garchomp lost 94% of its health!
Greninja lost some of its HP!

The opposing Garchomp fainted!

sizzerp won the battle!
Ladder updating...
Ladder (probably) updated, but score could not be retrieved (corruption).
sizzerp: gg
Stolen Catchphrase: gg
Stolen Catchphrase left.

StafeTest joined.
sizzerp joined.
Format:
OU (beta)
Rated battle

Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages
sizzerp's team:Greninja / Klefki / Kabutops / Clefable / Smeargle / Charizard
StafeTest's team:Alakazam / Blaziken / Garchomp / Tyranitar / Gyarados / Scizor
Battle between StafeTest and sizzerp started!

StafeTest sent out Scizor!

Go! Smeargle!
Turn 1

Smeargle used Sticky Web!
Sticky Web started!

The opposing Scizor used U-turn!
Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Smeargle lost 99.7% of its health!

The opposing Scizor went back to StafeTest!

StafeTest sent out Gyarados!
The opposing Gyarados intimidates Smeargle!
Smeargle's Attack fell!
Turn 2

Gyarados has Mega Evolved into Mega Gyarados!
The opposing Gyarados breaks the mold!

Smeargle used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Gyarados used Waterfall!
Smeargle lost 0.3% of its health!

Smeargle fainted!

Go! Klefki!
Turn 3

Klefki used Reflect!
Reflect raised your team's Defense!

The opposing Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
The opposing Gyarados's Attack rose!
The opposing Gyarados's Speed rose!
Turn 4

Klefki used Thunder Wave!
The opposing Gyarados is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
The opposing Gyarados's Attack rose!
The opposing Gyarados's Speed rose!
Turn 5

Klefki, come back!

Go! Clefable!

The opposing Gyarados is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 6

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Gyarados's stat changes!

The opposing Gyarados used Waterfall!
Clefable lost 33.0% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 7

Clefable used Stored Power!
It doesn't affect the opposing Gyarados...

The opposing Gyarados is paralyzed! It can't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 8
sizzerp: derp i meant to click something else

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
The opposing Gyarados's Attack rose!
The opposing Gyarados's Speed rose!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 9

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Gyarados used Waterfall!
Clefable lost 17.5% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 10
StafeTest: this game aint going well for me...\

Clefable used Moonblast!
It's super effective! The opposing Gyarados lost 40% of its health!

The opposing Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
The opposing Gyarados's Attack rose!
The opposing Gyarados's Speed rose!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Your team's Reflect wore off!
Turn 11

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Gyarados used Waterfall!
Clefable lost 38.1% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 12

Clefable used Moonblast!
It's super effective! The opposing Gyarados lost 43% of its health!

The opposing Gyarados used Waterfall!
Clefable lost 35.0% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 13

Clefable used Moonblast!
It's super effective! The opposing Gyarados lost 17% of its health!

The opposing Gyarados fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!

StafeTest sent out Scizor!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Scizor!
The opposing Scizor's Speed fell!
Turn 14

The opposing Scizor used Bullet Punch!
It's super effective! Clefable lost 24.9% of its health!

Clefable fainted!

Go! Klefki!
Turn 15

Klefki used Reflect!
Reflect raised your team's Defense!

The opposing Scizor used Bullet Punch!
A critical hit! Klefki lost 80.9% of its health!
Turn 16

Klefki, come back!

Go! Charizard!

The opposing Scizor used Bullet Punch!
It's not very effective... Charizard lost 16.8% of its health!
Turn 17

StafeTest withdrew Scizor!

StafeTest sent out Garchomp!
The opposing Garchomp's Speed fell!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Garchomp!
Charizard has Mega Evolved into Mega Charizard!

Charizard used Dragon Dance!
Charizard's Attack rose!
Charizard's Speed rose!
Turn 18

Charizard used Dragon Claw!
A critical hit! It's super effective! The opposing Garchomp lost 94% of its health!
Charizard is hurt by the opposing Garchomp's Rough Skin!

The opposing Garchomp fainted!

StafeTest sent out Alakazam!
The opposing Alakazam's Speed fell!
Turn 19
sizzerp: your Azam is mega isn't it

Charizard used Earthquake!
The opposing Alakazam hung on using its Focus Sash!
The opposing Alakazam lost 99% of its health!

The opposing Alakazam used Hidden Power!
Charizard lost 26.5% of its health!
Turn 20
sizzerp: nope

Charizard used Earthquake!
The opposing Alakazam lost 1% of its health!

The opposing Alakazam fainted!

StafeTest sent out Tyranitar!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Tyranitar!
The opposing Tyranitar's Speed fell!
A sandstorm kicked up!
Turn 21

Charizard used Earthquake!
It's super effective! The opposing Tyranitar lost 88% of its health!

The opposing Tyranitar fainted!
The sandstorm rages.

Charizard is buffeted by the sandstorm!
StafeTest: gyrados was...i just forgot

StafeTest sent out Scizor!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Scizor!
The opposing Scizor's Speed fell!
Turn 22
sizzerp: Lol derp
sizzerp: im forgetful

The opposing Scizor used Quick Attack!
Charizard lost 16.8% of its health!

Charizard used Flare Blitz!
It's super effective! The opposing Scizor lost 76% of its health!
Charizard is damaged by recoil!

The opposing Scizor fainted!

Charizard fainted!
The sandstorm rages.

Your team's Reflect wore off!
StafeTest: i just made this team

StafeTest sent out Blaziken!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Blaziken!
The opposing Blaziken's Speed fell!

Go! Klefki!
Turn 23
StafeTest: gg
sizzerp: im screwing around with teams as well

Klefki used Thunder Wave!
The opposing Blaziken is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing Blaziken used Flare Blitz!
It's super effective! Klefki lost 19.1% of its health!
The opposing Blaziken is damaged by recoil!
The opposing Blaziken lost some of its HP!

Klefki fainted!
The sandstorm rages.

The opposing Blaziken is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The opposing Blaziken's Speed Boost raised its Speed!

Go! Kabutops!
Turn 24
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Kabutops used Waterfall!
It's super effective! The opposing Blaziken lost 66% of its health!

The opposing Blaziken fainted!

sizzerp won the battle!
Ladder updating...
StafeTest's rating: 1603 → 1465
(-138 for losing)
sizzerp's rating: 1465 → 1477
(+12 for winning)
sizzerp: gg
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sizzerp joined.
sxxxysquirtle joined.
Format:
OU (beta)
Rated battle

Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages
sizzerp's team:Greninja / Klefki / Kabutops / Clefable / Smeargle / Charizard
sxxxysquirtle's team:Scolipede / Vaporeon / Dragonite / Cinccino / Ferrothorn / Sableye
Battle between sizzerp and sxxxysquirtle started!

Go! Clefable!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Sableye!
Turn 1
sizzerp: the misclicks
sizzerp: Zzzz

Clefable, come back!

Go! Smeargle!

The opposing Sableye used Taunt!
Smeargle fell for the taunt!
Turn 2

Smeargle, come back!

Go! Charizard!

The opposing Sableye used Confuse Ray!
Charizard became confused!
Turn 3

Charizard, come back!

Go! Kabutops!

The opposing Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
Kabutops was burned!

Kabutops was hurt by its burn!
Turn 4

Kabutops, come back!

Go! Greninja!

The opposing Sableye used Confuse Ray!
Greninja became confused!
Turn 5

Greninja, come back!

Go! Charizard!

The opposing Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
Charizard avoided the attack!
Turn 6

Charizard has Mega Evolved into Mega Charizard!

The opposing Sableye used Confuse Ray!
Charizard became confused!
Charizard is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Turn 7

The opposing Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
But it failed!
Charizard snapped out of its confusion.

Charizard used Dragon Dance!
Charizard's Attack rose!
Charizard's Speed rose!
Turn 8

The opposing Sableye used Taunt!
Charizard fell for the taunt!

Charizard can't use Dragon Dance after the taunt!
Turn 9

The opposing Sableye used Confuse Ray!
Charizard became confused!
Charizard is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Turn 10

Charizard is confused!

Charizard used Flare Blitz!
The opposing Sableye lost 100% of its health!
Charizard is damaged by recoil!

The opposing Sableye fainted!

Charizard's taunt wore off!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Vaporeon!
Turn 11

Charizard is confused!

Charizard used Dragon Dance!
Charizard's Attack rose!
Charizard's Speed rose!

The opposing Vaporeon used Scald!
Charizard lost 31.2% of its health!

Charizard fainted!

Go! Smeargle!
Turn 12

Smeargle used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Vaporeon used Acid Armor!
The opposing Vaporeon's Defense sharply rose!
Turn 13

Smeargle used Sticky Web!
Sticky Web started!

The opposing Vaporeon used Acid Armor!
The opposing Vaporeon's Defense sharply rose!
Turn 14

Smeargle, come back!

Go! Clefable!

The opposing Vaporeon used Acid Armor!
The opposing Vaporeon's Defense sharply rose!
Turn 15

The opposing Vaporeon used Baton Pass!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Scolipede!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Scolipede!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed fell!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Scolipede's stat changes!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 16

The opposing Scolipede used Swords Dance!
The opposing Scolipede's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Scolipede's stat changes!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 17

The opposing Scolipede used Protect!
The opposing Scolipede protected itself!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Scolipede's stat changes!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 18

The opposing Scolipede used Baton Pass!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Cinccino!
The opposing Cinccino's Speed fell!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cinccino!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Cinccino's stat changes!
Turn 19

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable avoided the attack!

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!
Turn 20

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable lost 1.8% of its health!
A critical hit! Clefable lost 11.4% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 21

The opposing Cinccino used Bullet Seed!
Clefable lost 1.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.8% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.5% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 22

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable lost 2.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 23
sizzerp: Kings rock pls

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.8% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 24
sizzerp: ive never gotten these many flinches in the actual game with this set <_<

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.5% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 25
sizzerp: somethins is wrong here <_<
sxxxysquirtle: I've never gotten this many flinches with set before either

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable avoided the attack!

Clefable used Stored Power!
The opposing Cinccino lost 77% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 26

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Clefable lost 1.8% of its health!
Clefable lost 2.3% of its health!
Hit 5 time(s)!

Clefable flinched and couldn't move!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 27

The opposing Cinccino used Tail Slap!
Clefable avoided the attack!

Clefable used Stored Power!
The opposing Cinccino lost 11% of its health!

The opposing Cinccino fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
sizzerp: seems like its always flinching me when the attack lands :P

sxxxysquirtle sent out Ferrothorn!
The opposing Ferrothorn's Speed fell!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Ferrothorn!
Turn 28

Clefable, come back!

Go! Greninja!

The opposing Ferrothorn used Thunder Wave!
Greninja is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!
Turn 29

Greninja's Protean made it the Fire type!

Greninja used Hidden Power!
It's super effective! The opposing Ferrothorn lost 94% of its health!
Greninja lost some of its HP!

The opposing Ferrothorn fainted!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Vaporeon!
The opposing Vaporeon's Speed fell!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Vaporeon!
Turn 30
sizzerp: Dammit I knew I should have ran a cleric and not Kabutops here >_>

Greninja, come back!

Go! Klefki!

The opposing Vaporeon used Scald!
Klefki lost 30.3% of its health!

The opposing Vaporeon restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 31

Klefki used Reflect!
Reflect raised your team's Defense!

The opposing Vaporeon used Acid Armor!
The opposing Vaporeon's Defense sharply rose!

The opposing Vaporeon restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 32

Klefki used Thunder Wave!
The opposing Vaporeon is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing Vaporeon is paralyzed! It can't move!
Turn 33

Klefki used Reflect!
But it failed!

The opposing Vaporeon used Baton Pass!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Scolipede!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Scolipede!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed fell!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 34

Klefki, come back!

Go! Clefable!

The opposing Scolipede used Swords Dance!
The opposing Scolipede's Attack sharply rose!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 35

The opposing Scolipede used Swords Dance!
The opposing Scolipede's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 36

The opposing Scolipede used Earthquake!
Clefable lost 5.6% of its health!

Clefable used Cosmic Power!
Clefable's Defense rose!
Clefable's Special Defense rose!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 37

The opposing Scolipede used Swords Dance!
The opposing Scolipede's Attack sharply rose!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Scolipede's stat changes!

The opposing Scolipede restored HP using its Leftovers!
Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing Scolipede's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
Turn 38

The opposing Scolipede used Baton Pass!

sxxxysquirtle sent out Dragonite!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Dragonite!

Clefable used Psych Up!
Clefable copied the opposing Dragonite's stat changes!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Your team's Reflect wore off!
Turn 39

The opposing Dragonite used Earthquake!
Clefable lost 15.2% of its health!

Clefable used Moonblast!
It's super effective! The opposing Dragonite lost 55.0% of its health!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 40

The opposing Dragonite used Fire Punch!
Clefable lost 12.2% of its health!
Clefable was burned!

Clefable used Moonblast!
It's super effective! The opposing Dragonite lost 21% of its health!

The opposing Dragonite fainted!

Clefable restored HP using its Leftovers!
Clefable was hurt by its burn!
sxxxysquirtle forfeited.
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sizzerp won the battle!
Ladder updating...
sxxxysquirtle left.
sizzerp's rating: 1517 → 1527
(+10 for winning)
sxxxysquirtle's rating: 1654 → 1649
(-5 for losing)


and also why aren't people running 156 HP on scolipede now, its a perfect sub number for things like Lansat passing, etc.
 
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See, the issue is that if you don't autowin against BP, you autolose to BP. You never autolose to DeoSharp. That's the major distinction between BP and other playstyles that some people itt don't seem to get.

Nope. Because you pack one (or two, or three) of the one million viable wallbreakers who can destroy baton pass if you lead with them and use them the right way. None of them auto win against bp, but they don't auto lose either.
 
No more than 3 Pokemon should be able to carry BP on a team. BP is nerfed to the point where it utterly fails vs anything but full stall, which is more than enough that you can never risk running it. That's more than a big enough nerf to the playstyle; it's no longer really viable or effective.

This is not the point of the thread. The point is to look for a balance, not to make an entire playstyle un-viable simply because people don't like it and refuse to adapt. Baton Pass as is is beatable, and this has been proven many times in the thread with well thought-out posts.
 
This is not the point of the thread. The point is to look for a balance, not to make an entire playstyle un-viable simply because people don't like it and refuse to adapt. Baton Pass as is is beatable, and this has been proven many times in the thread with well thought-out posts.
You're missing the point. Baton Pass is not balanced with a less strict cap than 3. That is the point that I am trying to make.
Nope. Because you pack one (or two, or three) of the one million viable wallbreakers who can destroy baton pass if you lead with them and use them the right way. None of them auto win against bp, but they don't auto lose either.
Please name all of your wallbreakers. I've already refuted every single one of the ones you mentioned in your previous posts. BP has the defensive Pokemon to set up on them.
 
Baton pass should not be banned.

Why?

  • One of the most common ou pokemon puts a near full stop to baton pass, Thundy-i
  • Baton pass is nowhere near as common as hyper offensive teams, balanced etc. Charizard y has little counters, is seen on like half the ou teams today and has great coverage, why dont we "nerf" that?
  • Swag play was banned because of little strategy, being hax reliant and unhealthy. Baton pass reliances on careful switches, move choices etc. one wrong move often spells doom for baton pass.
 
If I'd have to choose a solution it would be this: Ban magic bounce and speed boost baton passing. However, Espeon and Scolipede should not be banned from the tier, just the use of baton pass on their moveset
 
Stop mentioning haze quagaire people, for god's sake. If the first thing that comes to your mind when you think about beating bp is "haze quagsire", you are already losing the match.

You're missing the point. Baton Pass is not balanced with a less strict cap than 3. That is the point that I am trying to make.

Please name all of your wallbreakers. I've already refuted every single one of the ones you mentioned in your previous posts. BP has the defensive Pokemon to set up on them.

You refuted them based on the argument that "they don't beat baton pass 100% of the time". Well they don't, they require some smart predictions and good switches to function, as welk as being able to oustmart the opponent. Which is... how all the other competitive matches work since ever?

My personal favorite is mega gardevoir. She tears apart bp teams. She will need some team support for spore and probably mr. Mime, but that's not hard to do, and the bp player can oustamart me and kill my gardevoir sooner than I want, but that's why bp is viable in the first place. Usually by the time they finally get rid of gardevoir, I've denied them of so much momentum that I can easily send in the second best offensive theat and keep the pressure going.
 
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Ninja Charizard , I have a really hard time believing you've fought any decent Baton Pass abusers. Every single one knows how to set up Iron Defenses and calm minds so that nothing short of a crit will even scratch them. Combine that with their propensity for substitute, and a decent number of resistances, it's very difficult (not even reliably possible) to simply outmuscle Baton Pass.

And, ilovekirby12 , read the thread, we're past that
 
You're missing the point. Baton Pass is not balanced with a less strict cap than 3. That is the point that I am trying to make.

But there are two problems with your thesis:

1. You want to make Baton Pass un-viable based on your subjective view of the playstyle. If a nerf occurs, it should still be effective, like all other playstyles are, against a variety of threats, not just one form of team.

2. You ignore the precedent that a cap would start. What happens when another style is perfected (and don't say they never will be)? Do we put a cap on the number of HO offensive Pokémon on a team? Or do we leave it as is because people like it?

While I am completely anti-nerf because it is very beatable if you play against it intelligently, if any nerf were to occur it should only be either Speed Boost + Baton Pass or Stored Power + Baton Pass. Either of those should be sufficient to solve whatever difficulty people are facing due to their unpreparedness for a relevant threat.
 
Oh, and please, insulting the integrity of competitive players isn't getting you anywhere.
It may not be everyone, but this is the biggest problem in the voting system.

For the record, I agree with your arguments wholesale. I do not agree that the above statement is defensible aside from the fact that no one needs to be directly insulted.
---
I am actually going to contribute with this post.
If I'd have to choose a solution it would be this: Ban magic bounce and speed boost baton passing. However, Espeon and Scolipede should not be banned from the tier, just the use of baton pass on their moveset
They aren't going to remain OU without BP, at least, in Scolipede's case. That's just not how that works.
 
From what I read on this thread the problem is that the exactly same Pokémon who happens to be the one pushing BP off the edge is also the mon who is the best BP user outside of BP teams, his name? Scolipede, without this guy full BP becomes more manageable, as speed is the most important status and his ability to pass Speed is unrivaled in the tier, there was even a BP user who said himself that without Scolipede it would be more fun to play because gathering speed with Agility Zapdos or whatever is much more challenging, but at the same time since Scolipede is arguably the most viable Pokémon (alongside Sylveon) in the common BP chain outside of full BP, banning him is also out of question, and even some complex bans like Speed Boost + BP or Scolipede with BP are killing the viability of some non-broken strategies like QuickPass so a slow and powerful Poké becomes harder to revenge kill.

The most surgical solution would be to ban "Speed Boost + Baton Pass in a pokémon who is not the one with Speed Boost" or "you can't have a Pokémon with the ability Speed Boost on a team with 2 or more Baton Pass users", but while this would make both the people who find BP broken or uncompetitive and the ones who use full BP somewhat happy it is also too much of a complex ban and could open the floodgates for people to ask for things like Blaze Blaziken to be allowed in OU, so yes it is a really hard issue and I think we should be discussing solutions on how to nerf rather than posting about obscure counters, since we already know most of the counters/checks against full BP from the course of those 23 pages, and it seems no side is going to manage to convince the other anyway.
 
If I'd have to choose a solution it would be this: Ban magic bounce and speed boost baton passing. However, Espeon and Scolipede should not be banned from the tier, just the use of baton pass on their moveset
why not? Smogon bans things for their most effective sets, otherwise we'd allow uber pokemon as long as they don't use moves X, Y, or Z.

But there are two problems with your thesis:

1. You want to make Baton Pass un-viable based on your subjective view of the playstyle. If a nerf occurs, it should still be effective, like all other playstyles are, against a variety of threats, not just one form of team.

2. You ignore the precedent that a cap would start. What happens when another style is perfected (and don't say they never will be)? Do we put a cap on the number of HO offensive Pokémon on a team? Or do we leave it as is because people like it?

While I am completely anti-nerf because it is very beatable if you play against it intelligently, if any nerf were to occur it should only be either Speed Boost + Baton Pass or Stored Power + Baton Pass. Either of those should be sufficient to solve whatever difficulty people are facing due to their unpreparedness for a relevant threat.
I agree with you, killing the playing style by limiting the number of users is a wrong move. But if HO had 2 or 3 teams that simply outclassed each and every other HO team, it'd probably be because one or two pokemon on those teams were broken and we'd simply ban them.

Also, if we really want to avoid limiting not team based baton passing, then SB + BP is the wrong move. If we aren't then simply ban Scolipede.

And Petrico94 , it's a suspect discussion, that's how it always is
 
There's no way to nerf the "playstyle" without either getting overly complex or allowing it to remain overpowered. Baton Pass teams should die, plain and simple. There's no obligation to preserve a playstyle at all. Now before you cite gen 5, acknowledge that quite a few well respected players thought Drizzle was still overpowered even after the numerous nerfs and this is the reason why many look at gen 5 with contempt. Baton Pass is the same thing, it needs to leave in its entirety like swagger did. Get over it.


Strawman fallacy right there. There's no slippery slope here or anything similar. Your comparison is off base because it's hard to categorize Baton Pass as a playstyle when it's in a league of its own.
I disagree partially, banning Genesect nerfed Volt Turn pretty effectively, and that wasn't complex by any means
 
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