Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Cataclyptic]

Here's the real reason that Baton Pass is finally getting this discussion.

In previous generations, Baton Pass has been around, and it was annoying, and it could even win against good teams played with good players. But it wasn't particularly consistent, and it wasn't particularly uniform. BP users had an uphill battle against dominant archetypes like weather offense and had to make a bunch of choices in their teambuilding that exposed them different pokemon. The fact that there was so much variance in playing BP made it an unattractive strategy to most top-tier players through gens 4 and 5, and it was mostly relegated to the occasional appearance on the ladder.

What has changed Baton Pass in Gen 6 is not the addition of any particular weapon like Scolipede or Sylveon, because BP has had fantastic threats in the past. They've made BP more viable, but not broken. What has changed is this:

Baton Pass is Pokemon's first fully competitive solved team archetype.

Baton Pass is figured out. There is a right way to build Baton Pass. Scolipede, Espeon, Smeargle, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Zapdos (with, to my knowledge, one possible variation - Mr. Mime). Other changes that are made, or pokemon that are included, are almost universally going to make this team worse. Although I'm no BP expert, I'm pretty sure that even the items and movesets are pretty much set in stone for making a Baton Pass team.

I have no experience with generations 1 or 2 but I can say with confidence that I have never seen anything like this since my time in pokemon. Even heavily formulaic teams like Rain Dance offense in gen 3 had comparatively large amounts of variation that could personalize a team or tweak it to perform better against certain threats in the metagame. What we are facing is in some sense both the bane of and the dream of a competitive pokemon player - an optimized team archetype. We all set out to make the best team possible for our strategy when we teambuild, well, here it is: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! etc. etc.

This brings me to my next point:

The decision to nerf/ban Baton Pass is not a balance decision. It is a philosophical decision.

It's not a balance decision because, as has been established, Baton Pass is very beatable. In fact, the same decisionmaking applies regarding Baton Pass as any other archetype when you're teambuilding - should I include the pokemon/moves that give me game against this strategy? It's up to you to decide if your chances against BP are going to be better or worse. The thing is, the fact that Baton Pass is optimized magnifies the importance of this decision because it's basically a binary - having a certain somewhat small set of moves/pokemon beats it, not having them makes your chances pretty dim. But this isn't like Kangaskhan or Mega-Lucario, where you have a very small pool of counters to a single pokemon. This is an entire type of team we're discussing. This is the consequence of having a team archetype in OU which is completely figured out.

What I'm trying to get across here is that the "problems" people are identifying with Baton Pass don't stem from the power of the move or strategy. They stem from the fact that the best Baton Pass team is known. It has counters, and it has things that it beats, and they are mostly known as well. That can make matches seem coinflippy. That can make the game more about team match-ups. And, depending on your point of view, that could be a problem.

So the decision is this:

What is competitive pokemon about?

Is competitive pokemon about making the best team possible? That's my view. If so, then banning Baton Pass now seems contrary to what we're all about. If the game is about the search for the best or most optimized team, why would we punish users for finding it? It's not as though Baton Pass is some unstoppable juggernaut rolling through the metagame, rather, it's a solid strategy that has been pushed to its furthest extent. If anything, the fact that the strategy is figured out is a reason to keep it in OU. It's not going to change much. It's a known quantity. So whatever adaptations or changes need to be made to teams to beat Baton Pass can be made with the knowledge they'll work over the long run. Any minor tweaks made to the strategy can in turn be countered, but we aren't going to see some revolutionary Baton Pass team that bypasses all of the counters and takes the meta by the storm.

On the other hand, you might be of the view that competitive pokemon is about maximizing battling skill. If so, then banning Baton Pass, and in general "figured-out" archetypes, is pretty much a no-brainer. When a strategy is so finely-tuned that its strengths and weaknesses are pretty much set in stone, the actual battle can feel like a formality. If you have the necessary tools, then you'll win; if you don't, back to the drawing board, irrespective of your personal abilities as a battler.

I've written about this before, at length, here. I would hope that people would read it, and in so doing gain a better foundational understanding of the disputes we have here at Smogon. The distinction between the focus on teambuilding and battling is, in fact, what underlies most of our balance discussions. But I'd like to emphasize that the consequences of the decision we make here, which is the first of its kind, are likely to be fairly far-reaching. We're setting a precedent here about what to do with a strategy that's been figured out, and what we decide is probably how we'll approach the next strategy that's figured out. So for those of you who hate Baton Pass, feel free to vote to ban, but what happens when the best Rain team is made? Or the best HO team? Or the best stall team? Will you be willing to get rid of them, too?

Think about it.

I hate to quote internet phrases that are grammatically incorrect... but THIS.

This is entirely why BP needs to be debated, for it goes to the roots of what we want the metagame to be. You are absolutely correct in assuming that not/nerfing BP chains depends entirely on your perspective on what should be. I for instance view the metagame as a way for the skillful players to beat the less skillful ones, and thus BP is uncompetitive. On the other hand I completely understand the other side, that since BP has been "solved" (so to speak) and can get wins by being a great team archetype, it is simply a great team so The End.

As I said, I am the person who favors a skill based metagame as opposed to one that simply "wins". I stand by my hypothesis that BP allows for less skill in the meta, so I want something done. However I understand that there are those who disagree with me, and as such I will take any criticism if their argument is well rounded.

This one, for instance.

 

[Jukain]

If it's broken in ubers, I guess it could get banned from ubers too.

I think jpw hit the nail on the head. Mare clock brought up some good points too in that smogon has never outright banned an entire playstyle before, but has gotten rid of problem Pokemon instead. And except for rain's case, that has always been the better option.

We banned Swagger, which eliminated the playstyle SwagPlay. Sure, it wasn't a complex ban like is being suggested here, but Swagger is an entirely different case, as it has no non-uncompetitive/strategic use; BP has legitimate uses as a move. The goal is to ban the thing that's causing the issue. Is Espeon as a Pokemon causing the issue? Is Scolipede? No, it's the entire idea of having a full Baton Pass team that's the issue. Therefore it only makes sense to do some sort of complex ban.

 

[haunter]

NeonNinja96: I'm actually quite satisfied with the quality of this thread so far. There have been good arguments from both the sides and I'm keeping it clean, deleting uninformed and impolite posts.

Also, to reassure the anti-ban side: right now the Council doesn't support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass. Should we decide to take actions against Baton Pass chains, we'd probably prefer a softer approach. The purpose of this thread is mainly to gather opinions from the playerbase on how the full Baton Pass team archetype is perceived and what kind of nerfs (if any) would be considered acceptable.

 

[Mastoise]

Simple, remove the ability to have a magic bouncer on a baton pass team, then any most players will have either roar/whirlwind on their team thus phasing out the issue.

 

[Toljik]

Would critical hit sets like Kingdra's work? Crits bypass the defense boosts of BP chains and still pack a punch even if the opponent doesn't have a BP team.

The only problem is that Kingdra itself does poorly against Sylveon and Mr. Mime (assuming the latter has a Fairy STAB move, which isn't always the case).

 

[I_am_A_Garchomp]

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
I really don't think it is a massive problem. I have reached high up, but it hasn't been a big nuisance. It might get annoying if you are on top of the ladder, and a Baton pass team comes and throws your whole team away. It is annoying, but isn't hampering the metagame to where when you face a Baton Pass team, you automatically lose.
If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Magic Bounce is pushing it over the edge, along with Soundproof. Basically stuff blocking your attempts to Phaze/Taunt. And now with a Bulkier passer, it becomes a whole new level of annoying.
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Yes. Banning the Pokemon that Block your Taunts/Hazes/whatever may be nice, but do it to where you only ban them if they have Baton Pass. If it is Dual Screens Espeon, which normally doesn't carry Baton Pass, that is fine. But if it is an Espeon that has Baton Pass, it shouldn't be allowed.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
I'm not to familiar with Smogon Ban terms, so can I get an explanation of Blanket Bans?
Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? I would do it to where if more than 2 of your Pokemon have Baton Pass, your team can't be used. 2 seems a fine number, but in 3 Pokemon, you can cover most of the stats needed to boost.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
I'm not to familiar with Smogon Ban terms, so can I get an explanation of Blanket Bans?

blanket ban means that the move baton pass would get banned entirely, like with swagger.

 

[Toljik]

Yes. Banning the Pokemon that Block your Taunts/Hazes/whatever may be nice, but do it to where you only ban them if they have Baton Pass. If it is Dual Screens Espeon, which normally doesn't carry Baton Pass, that is fine. But if it is an Espeon that has Baton Pass, it shouldn't be allowed..

The issue with this is that Espeon also uses Baton Pass to escape Pursuit and Sucker Punch.

 

[Over Zealous]

Substitute is pointless if your attacks are dealing more than 25%, and protect will only buy them time. Sure they will get free speed boosts, but that's the only boost they will be able to get without takibg high damage, and every time they use baton pass they will give you a free turn to attack. Baton pass just cant handle early game pressure, specially from special attackers. And there are many special attackers who can put that pressure. And good offensive or balanced team is bound to have at least one.

Scolipede's entire point is to gather 2-3 trivial Speed boosts, which it does with relative ease, no matter what the opponent does. This is a state of autonomy. From there, the Passer's entire team has initiative and momentum. Early game "pressure" by spamming attack moves is a death sentence, not a countermeasure. I'll let you go over the definition of checks and counters.


"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

"Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

What's the difference between "this great move has no use other than combating this team style" vs something like hazards, which basically requires every team to run a defogger or spinner? Couldn't you say hazards are centralising in that regard too?

Yes I know hazards are useful and turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and are important for keeping potentially broken things like charY and pinsir in check, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but is carrying something to deal with BP teams so bad when you've already got to account for how to deal with all of the other types of teams?

Charizard nor Pinsir is broken, and no player is forced to run hazards. Hazards can be set by a varied list of Pokemon, and removed by a varied list.

"Carrying something to deal with BP teams" means every player is forced to carry 1 of 2 potentially obscure, niche counters, like Haze Murkrow.

 

[rachet67]

Charizard nor Pinsir is broken, and no player is forced to run hazards. Hazards can be set by a varied list of Pokemon, and removed by a varied list.

"Carrying something to deal with BP teams" means every player is forced to carry 1 of 2 potentially obscure, niche counters, like Haze Murkrow.

While I do agree that BP needs a nerf, I think you're exaggerating how hard it is to beat a BP team just a little. Talonflame, Landorus-I, Thundurus-i, and Charizard-Y can handle BP before a sub is put down. However, they can't always beat BP, and once the chain is started its nearly impossible to stop even with these pokemon. Beyond that, its a stratagy that almost takes away the importance of strategy and decides the game based off of matchup. Its for those reasons I think it should be nerfed.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Before you read this, bear in mind how huge my post is :)

A couple of weeks ago, I started using Baton Pass just to try it in 6th Gen, having only ever played it in 3rd Gen OU. As people may or may not know, Baton Pass was a divisive topic in ADV as well - I wasn't around 10 years ago but a friend told me about this. I believe that in 3rd Gen, Ingrain Smeargle + Baton Pass was banned.

This generation, i swiped a team from somewhere and tried it out. Initially i did this as a joke to screw with 2 friends of mine, but then I actually tailored the sets to make as good a team as possible: I ended up with Scolipede, Sylveon, Mawile (Mega), Vaporeon, Espeon and Smeargle. Using this team on the ladder, I came up against AJTheEpic, who had one of the supposed roadblocks to Baton Pass in Prankster Thundurus with Taunt. Despite him having this and me making a nasty misplay or two, which actually ended up breaking the chain, I was able to retreat and start the chain again, eventually beating him.

After the match, we shortly discussed Baton Pass as a strategy and he said something which i believe to be very relevant - his words were "I have no way to predict against your team". Obviously prediction is a large part of the game and rewards better players who make smart plays and win games because of this, but when playing Baton Pass, this goes out of the window.

The biggest issue with the chains is the Speed accumulation which allows you to spam Baton Pass and always stay a step ahead of your opponent. Scolipede has risen as the lead member of the chain, passing +2 speed to its teammates. Obviously things like Vaporeon and Sylveon are still slow, but I worked a way around this: you can invest certain amounts of speed into each of your teammembers so that they will outspeed relevant speed tiers with a certain number of speed boosts: for example, i decided to invest enough speed into Mawile so that it would outspeed the base 108 and 110 speed tiers with +2 speed, so that it could come in, kill/scare off certain threats in that speed range, and then continue the chain.

I do not claim do be an expert, but Baton Pass has always interested me as a playstyle, and I've tried it in almost every tier in every Generation. In Generation V, Baton Pass obtained two very useful tools in Magic Bounce Espeon and Stored Power, which help(ed) BP's viability hugely. combine this with the lack of shitty boring HO weather offense slower pace of OU this generation (thank you Defog), and BP is suddenly a lot better than it was last generation, although i believe that it is nowhere near as good as it was/is in ADV.

Something I've seen several inexperienced players try to do (kudos to them btw, lots of people higher up on the ladder just forfeit as soon as they see team preview) is stack hazards on my side of the field, as it will then restrict my switching. this is a REALLY bad idea because: a. i can just pass into Espeon and bounce all their hazards back at them, and b. the best way of winning against Baton Pass chains is to stop them before they start to snowball and accumulate their boosts - laying hazards whilst Vaporeon sets up to +6 with Acid Amor is a really bad idea, to think of one match i had - and then I just quickly passed back into Scolipede to absorb the Toxic Spikes, then back out into Espeon to bounce them back, then i just set up CM a couple of times and won 6-0 with Stored Power.

A note on Stored Power: a mistake I have seen several players make is to try and accumulate +6 in every stat, especially Special Attack, before going on a rampage with Stored Power. after +3 Speed, +4 Defense and +4 Special Defense (for example), Stored Power becomes stupidly powerful, able to do things such as kill Shield Forme Aegislash from full through its Psychic Resistance. Too many players try to get all the boosts possible, where they should actually be focusing on passing Espeon the speed it needs, as well as the defensive boosts it needs, so that she can take several priority hits and click Stored Power six times to win.

But what about Dark Types, you ask? well, Espeon gets this nice Fairy Move to use purely for Dark-Types that are immune to Stored Power. However, this is not the only way to deal with Bisharp/Tyranitar trying to kill Espeon. Baton Pass has a nice side effect of allowing her to escape Pursuit unharmed (a mechanic which quite a few players around the 1650 ranking apparently don't know about). I personally run Sylveon with Hyper Voice/Calm Mind/Substitute/Baton Pass in my chain, as she can get rid of things that try to set up Substitute as you set up the chain, as well as being able to come into Pursuits and scare away any Dark Types with Hyper Voice. Oh, and sometimes I run Stored Power on Sylveon too, just in case.

Let's think of some other Baton Passers now. You can tailor your chain to deal with certain things - I run Vaporeon with that little bit of Speed investment, then throw the rest into HP and Defense. A typical Vaporeon set in a full BP Chain will be Scald, Substitute, Acid Armor and Baton Pass - this is what I use, and I imagine it is the standard. with Calm Mind boosts, Vaporeon can pose a significant threat to anything with Scald. Also, alongside the burn chance and Acid Armor, Vaporeon becomes a monstrous physical wall.

Now let's talk about Smeargle - he can take the pressure off Espeon/Mr Mime immensely with Ingrain, meaning that the Psychic types don't have to come into onslaughts from opponents that expect their switchin and hammer them with attacks instead. Smeargle can also Spore pretty much anything after he receives a Substitute and some Speed, and can pass any boost you like - I've seen interesting setups of Baton Pass which involved Speed, Defense and Special Defense accumulation, then a safe pass into Smeargle (who was protected by Sub of course). Smeargle then proceeded to Smash on the predicted Grass-Type switchin, then put it to sleep with Dark Void, then Smashed again, then passed a Vaporeon sub and all those boosts to Espeon, and it was gg at that point).

Let's think of some supposed answers to full Baton Pass now:

Unaware Clefable: She can set up Calm Mind or Cosmic Power and proceed to hammer you with attacks, who can just sit there and wall you. However, no amount of boosts will save Clefable from base 600 Stored Power coming from Espeon. However, there is another easy way of dealing with Clefable - Steel Types with Baton Pass. Scizor or Mega Mawile work nicely here, being able to break Clefable with STAB Steel moves - personally, I run Mega Mawile with Iron Head. These Steel-Types can also pass SD/Iron Defense, so they can contribute to the chain outside of getting rid of the Mt. Moon fairy.

Unaware Quagsire - cannot take base 500 or whatever Stored Power. If it has Haze, it can singlehandedly save its team - again, AJTheEpic's Terrible Trireme team has saved me from Baton Pass chains, as he runs Haze on his Quagsire - however, this isn't foolproof, as my friend found out when trialling AJ's Triremes team against a Baton Pass team of mine - Celebi is more than viable in Baton Pass chains, and with smart play and liberal used of dry Passing, you can easily stop Quagsire from Hazing, and set up with Celebi as it switches out. I have also run Hidden Power Grass on Zapdos before for this very roadblock to the team.

powerful attackers such as Talonflame/Mega Pinsir: Scolipede has a nasty disadvantage against these two, but there are ways around this too. Agility Zapdos can scare both of them away and set up nice and easily. Mega Mawile can come in on both (if Talonflame is locked into Brave Bird), and can easily Intimidate them, Mega Evolve and set up Acid Armor.

Hyper Voice Sylveon/Mega Gardevoir - Specs Sylveon is grim to play against, as its Hyper Voices are stupidly powerful. However, you can run Poison Jab on Scolipede to deal with these. Taunt Deoxys is annoying, but you can run Mental Herb on Scolipede to deal with this (Protect first turn, then Sub on the Taunt which Mental Herb cures, then pass into Espeon). you can also run Megahorn to kill off Deoxys-S - oh, and Scolipede outspeeds Deoxys-S after one Protect, which also helps you scout for Psycho Boost).

basically, what i wanted to say is that all or most of the supposed "counters" can be dealt with in some form or another. Taunt Sableye is easy to predict, and you can just have a war with it with something like Vaporeon (repeated Scalds, whilst it can't Recover lest Taunt wears off), or simply kill it with Sylveon. certain passers such as Gliscor and Mr Mime (i think) can Taunt opposing Taunters, and there's always Mental Herb. Things like Mega Pinsir can be dealt with by specialising certain teammembers, eg Agility Zapdos.

Another couple of points I would like to mention is that Baton Pass chains can really really fuck with several prominent OU tier members. Let's take Aegislash for example. It can threaten Espeon with Ghost moves such as Shadow Sneak and Shadow Ball. However, you can Pass into something like Vaporeon, which can set up Substitutes and Acid Armors on Aegislash. Also, Aegislash is lefft in a nasty situation after having attempted to kill Espeon - it is now in Sword Form, which leaves it very vulnerable to getting wrecked by Scald from Vaporeon. Does it keep attacking as Vaporeon sets up on it, King's Shield as Vaporeon sets up on it, or switch out and give Vaporeon a free turn to set up? you can also be a dick and bring Smeargle into Ghost moves, threaten Aegislash with Spore, then use the free turns to set up even more, or simply dry pass to see if/what Aegis switches out into.

Another example is Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz comes in on, say, Scolipede. Now, it can Whirlwind, but you're probably going to pass into Espeon, right? so Mandibuzz goes for the Foul Play/Brave Bird/Knock Off. Interestingly, Espeon's Substitutes aren't broken by any of the mentioned moves if an Acid Armor has been passed to it. So Mandibuzz can hit Espeon's Subs as Espeon Calm Minds. then Espeon passes into Sylveon on a Foul Play. If the Baton Pass player is smart, he will manage the damage taken so that Sylveon can come in on Mandibuzz and have a Sub intact at the end of the turn. Mandibuzz can then either die to Hyper Voice or switch. Free turns again.

A final example is Heatran - let's say it comes in on Mawile. Mawile will be faster due to the Speed boosts. This situation is slightly more difficult - pass ino Vaporeon or Espeon? passing into Espeon is the best option, as you can bounce Roar back at Heatran, forcing it out, then either pass out of the dragged-out Pokemon or set up on it. Or you can set up Calm Mind on Heatran if you like.

To sum up this huge wall of text, Baton Pass is difficult to play against at the best of times. As much as i have loved the strategy over the years, it is not fair that I was able to beat AJTheEpic with a kindof halfassed Baton Pass team. I have been on the giving and receiving end often when playing Baton Pass, and I can appreciate both sides of the argument, and I therefore think that I can weigh in on the subject.

Baton Pass CAN be hard countered, but a lot of the time this requires:

suboptimal movesets and the element of suprise, eg Haze Gengar/Haze Dragonite. and competent Baton Pass players can play around and watch out for these kinds of CounterTeaming tactics, e.g. playing safe and kililng potential Hazers and then continuing the chain, instead of boosting in front of them, or Passing into Mr Mime on a suspected Perish Song.

opposing setup sweepers that can boost and overwhelm the chain, eg Mega Pinsir. Thing is, after you lose to them once or twice, you learn not to lead with Scolipede against a team with Pinsir/Talonflame in Team Preview, and can tailor certain slots to deal with this - I mentioned Zapdos earlier on.

Perish Song - Mr Mime is crap in OU but on Baton Pass it allows the chain to laugh at Perish Song users. however, you can leave Mr Mime at home and still win a lot of the time due to the lack of Perish Song on most OU teams.

Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail/Circle Throw: users of these moves can be identified easily, and the use of these moves can be seen a mile off - pass to Espeon, have a Substitute up, problem solved.

Trick+choice item: Baton Pass chains should keep Substitute up at all times to avoid critical hits anyway, so this isn't really too much of an issue. Infiltrator+Switcheroo/Trick users are obvious as anything, just work around them, Pass into something to take the item, then Pass again.

A final overview of the state of Baton Pass this generation:

buffs: Scolipede, Sylveon, slower metagame

nerfs: roar/wwind goes through protect now, general power creep, sound moves going through Substitute, Infiltrator (to an extent), rise of Dark Types that scare Espeon (not really that much of an issue as i discussed earlier).

I think that, if something should be banned, it should be:

Pokemon that have the Speed Boost ability, when combined with other Baton Pass users

they should still be able to pass boosts on their own, just not as part of a full chain - and if you ban Scolipede people will just use Ninjask instead, trust me. are there any other Speed Boost Pokemon besides Blaziken that also learn Baton Pass?

if we were to make this complex ban, Baton Pass would be nerfed enough so that it would still be a legitimate playstyle, but not so nerfed that it is unviable, the Speed boost to everything is the biggest issue, as it allows the BP team to laugh at traditional speed tiers and stay a step ahead at all times. This would mean that us Baton Pass users would have to use things like AgilityPass Zapdos or Gliscor, which I believe is a fair tradeoff.

banning the entire strategy is a very bad idea in my opinion, as it leads to a slippery slope. Should we ban Kyurem-Black for its ability to pretty much singlehandly destroy Stall teams? or Gothitelle for its ability to cripple and destroy Stall teams on its own? or Mega Medicham for being able to dismantle large parts of stall teams? maybe Mega Venusaur should be banned because it arguably is centralizing and can wall and win against about 80% of the tier one on one (i've seen people running things like Return on Belly Drum Azumarill just to beat Venusaur, not to mention slashed moves in loads of analyses just so that something can get past Mega Venusaur)?

I have always been, and will always be, a dedicated Smogon player, and I believe that Smogon's tiers, rules and clauses are the best when it comes to balancing competitive Pokemon. I just think that, whilst banning Baton Pass wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing in the world, it could lead to a slippery slope - remember the arguments caused by "why isn't Blaze Blaziken allowed in OU, why isn't Mold Breaker Excadrill allowed in OU", which then lead to a huge stupid argument of "everything should be allowed in every tier with limitations" - I can imagine soemthing along the lines of "why can't we use 4 BP members in team instead of 2/3/whatever members" if we were to ban Baton Pass in certain ways, eg restriction of number of teammembers that can carry Baton Pass.



p.s. thank your lucky stars that Moody is banned in every tier, I played a match against a guy on Wi-Fi where he had Moody Smeargle with Stored Power and Baton Pass....

 

[Over Zealous]

There's Milotic, which managed to at least get an OU analysis this time around, and her defensive sets, which can feature Haze, got a mention there. Speaking of, her main stab at least threatens stray burns, which will force the BP player to bust out their cleric, if they even have one. That's valuable time that could cost them all their precious boosts.



Yeah, I told myself i wasn't gonna reply to you anymore because your condescending tone really tests my civility, but alas. You have a really bad habit of taking things and jumping to broad conclusions that simplify the situation in a bad way. As that one nice post from 56K points out, there are a TON of things that can shut down BP that you can run, and they can do a million other things. Priority in general is a very big problem for BP teams because all they really have to beat it is Sucker Punches from Mega Absol and Mega Mawile, and not only are those two mons that can't really afford to come out swinging, but sucker punch will fail by simply having faster priority, and you can apply pressure on Scolipde so that he doesn't get that speed.

Speaking of Mega Mawile, she is very much a problem for BP teams. They can't boost defense faster than she can boost attack. Stored Power needs a retarded amount of boosts before it comes even close to taking out Mega Mawile. In fact, lets' say we got Espeon 2 iron defenses and an agility (via 2 speed boosts)

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meanwhile...

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The three turns it took to get espeon all that power were more than enough for Mega Mawile to boost up, and she probably jacked up Scolipede while he was boosting. We're also assuming that she was nice enough to let you get in for free and not totally murder you while as you were baton passing in.

You shouldn't reply not because I'm allegedly "condescending" but because you lack sufficient knowledge of the metagame to post. I'm a consistently top 500 OU ladder player. Baton Pass is so high on the ladder not because it takes skill and knowledge of the metagame, but because it is an autonomous affair with Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon in particular, rendering the strategy to be countered in 1 of 2 niche and obscure ways. In the clearest way: if you don't pack 1 of 2 dedicated counters, you lose.

Baton Pass does not have a "ton" of things that shut it down. Please read the arguments before posting. Priority is not a counter. Even Taunt isn't a counter, merely a check, by virtue of Magic Bounce's existence. Sucker Punch is not a counter. Nothing you listed is a counter, nor even a countermeasure.

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

"Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

[Vryheid]

First off, Haunter, you know this thread is going to go to hell eventually, so why bother?

Second, Baton Pass is a move that is blatantly obnoxious, in the same nature that Swagger is. Swagger's only use was to piss off everything it wanted to because Klefki is a massive fucking (BAN ME PLEASE). The same type of thing applies to Baton Pass, it's only purpose is to pass off stat boosts like a motherfucker, and this creates problems, because, while it is annoying as fuck, it isn't uncompetitive in the same way that Swagger is. Swagger turns the game into a coin flip, BP turns the game into a fuckfest of Smeargle and Espeon.

Here are a few of the many threats in Pokemon which people have asked to be banned for being "annoying" (translation: they force me to work for my wins):

-Stealth Rock
-Serene Grace
-Sub/Protect Toxic stalling
-F.E.A.R. mons
-Scald
-Knock Off
-Multiscale
-Drought/Scald
-Spore
-Focus Sash
-Unaware

Should we just ban all status moves and super effective attacks while we're at it?

 

[Over Zealous]

While I do agree that BP needs a nerf, I think you're exaggerating how hard it is to beat a BP team just a little. Talonflame, Landorus-I, Thundurus-i, and Charizard-Y can handle BP before a sub is put down. However, they can't always beat BP, and once the chain is started its nearly impossible to stop even with these pokemon. Beyond that, its a stratagy that almost takes away the importance of strategy and decides the game based off of matchup. Its for those reasons I think it should be nerfed.

By your own admission, nothing you posted stands as even remote checks outside of Talonflame, and you attempted to use situational bias like "before a Sub". The idea here is Scolipede outpaces and puts up as many Substitutes as needed, and Passes on anything that might threaten him. Baton Pass doesn't require "nerfing". Two abusive stalwarts in Speeds Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon do, however, as they introduce autonomy, and only have 1 or 2 entirely dedicated, niche counters.

 

[unitard]

jpw234
I mostly agree with your post, but I think there's one important difference between Baton Pass and other playstyles. There is only a right way to make a Baton Pass team because there is a right way to play with a Baton Pass team. You could pretty much program a computer to play Baton Pass perfectly: after Scolipede accumulates a few Speed Boosts, you can make your move depending on what your opponent has out on the field. This is because the goal of a Baton Pass team is very straightforward: you want to accumulate boosts, and the more boosts you've accumulated, the closer you are to winning. HO, on the other hand, is much more complex: in your average battle, there are a number of situations where there is no clear best course of action. This complexity guarantees that we will never find a "best" HO team. Let me make a game theory analogy: Checkers is simple enough that it has been "solved," i.e. we can program a computer to play it perfectly. Chess, on the other hand, while theoretically solvable, has proved too complex for us to solve. Baton Pass, as it is, turns pokemon into Checkers (or maybe even something closer to Tic Tac Toe), while HO turns pokemon into Chess.

If we do decide to nerf Baton Pass, I'm really not a fan of the "limit teams to 3/4 BP mons" suggestions. That just seems way too cheesy and unlike anything we've ever had before. On the other hand, a complex ban of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce + Baton Pass (or whatever) would be much more consistent with bans like Drizzle + Swift Swim.

 

[rachet67]

By your own admission, nothing you posted stands as even remote checks outside of Talonflame, and you attempted to use situational bias like "before a Sub". The idea here is Scolipede outpaces and puts up as many Substitutes as needed, and Passes on anything that might threaten him. Baton Pass doesn't require "nerfing". Two abusive stalwarts in Speeds Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon do, however, as they introduce autonomy, and only have 1 or 2 entirely dedicated, niche counters.

Before a sub really just means have either Charizard-Y, Thundurus-i, Landorus-I, or Talonflame in on the first turn. Charizard-Y hits hard enough with fireblast to 2HKO most of the other team, Landorus-I can do the same with earthpower, and Thundurus-I can play mind games with taunt and thunderbolt. I'm just trying to say that its not like BP always win against teams without Haze and Sableye , there are some offensive mons, such as these, that can get around it. I still think it should be nerfed, but its not quite as bad as you make it seem.

 

[Over Zealous]

Just want to put it out there but talon isn't a foolproof way of dealing with BP teams.Gliscor and Zapdos are pretty common in BP teams and can deal with talon pretty well. (as long as you run stone edge on gliscor ofc)
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%)
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%)

Many players struggle to comprehend the definition of checks and counters. They also fail to realize, with only 1 or 2 specific checks or "counters", it's still unhealthy for the metagame and the development of entire archetypes (i.e. Stall).

Before a sub really just means have either Charizard-Y, Thundurus-i, Landorus-I, or Talonflame in on the first turn. Charizard-Y hits hard enough with fireblast to 2HKO most of the other team, Landorus-I can do the same with earthpower, and Thundurus-I can play mind games with taunt and thunderbolt. I'm just trying to say that its not like BP always win against teams without Haze and Sableye , there are some offensive mons, such as these, that can get around it. I still think it should be nerfed, but its not quite as bad as you make it seem.

A competent Baton Pass player won't lead with Scolipede on account of Talonflame. And Scolipede welcomes arrogant offensive threats, as it can freely gather Speed Boosts with Sub and Protect, and Pass. Nothing you listed are counters, or even checks, outside Talonflame (which is merely a possible check to Scolipede).

 

[MARE CLOCK]

I think that, if something should be banned, it should be:

Pokemon that have the Speed Boost ability, when combined with other Baton Pass users

they should still be able to pass boosts on their own, just not as part of a full chain - and if you ban Scolipede people will just use Ninjask instead, trust me. are there any other Speed Boost Pokemon besides Blaziken that also learn Baton Pass?

This is an interesting solution, and thank you for your very well thought out and informative post LustrousPalkia.

Banning Speed Boost in conjunction with other BP users would force the BP team to manually boost speed, such as using Agility Zapdos, Scizor, or Gliscor. This would also mean that the BP team would not be able to attain both Defensive boosts and Speed boosts at the same time, which is Scolipede's role. This seems solid, but I don't know if it solves the problem.

Banning Magic Bounce + Speed Boost on the same team is for all intensive purposes the exact same as the above. The BP user would forego Scolipede to keep the more important member, Espeon.

An alternate solution would be to ban Magic Bounce in conjunction with other Baton Pass users. This would allow Espeon to keep Baton Pass as a useful move, however she would not be able to pass on a dedicated BP team. This would make BP teams much more susceptible to hazards, status, taunt, roar, and whirlwind. They could still accumulate boosts and attempt a sweep, however it would be easier to play against them, as you can freely whirlwind before Ingrain, and you could taunt at any time. A complex ban, but worth considering.

Another option that has been suggested is banning Ingrain + Baton Pass. I don't feel like this quite solves the problem, as you still have Espeon to deter phasing attempts.

And finally, limiting the number of Baton Pass users on a team. This seems the most controversial topic, because it would 100% end full baton pass. I feel like this is very divisive because many people see Full Baton Pass as a viable strategy, while others would like to see it gone completely. One thing is for sure, if this option were chosen it would end Full Baton Pass.

At the moment, I'm really seeing some interesting points of view, and whereas I initially supported limiting the number of Baton Pass members on a team, I am now beginning to see merit in a smaller nerf, such as Magic Bounce + other Baton Pass members, but it seems quite complex. With this route, you could have Magic Bounce Espeon on a team, but you would not be allowed to have, say, Baton Pass Celebi on the same team. I'm not sure what the implications of this would be.

 

[Over Zealous]

We banned Swagger, which eliminated the playstyle SwagPlay. Sure, it wasn't a complex ban like is being suggested here, but Swagger is an entirely different case, as it has no non-uncompetitive/strategic use; BP has legitimate uses as a move. The goal is to ban the thing that's causing the issue. Is Espeon as a Pokemon causing the issue? Is Scolipede? No, it's the entire idea of having a full Baton Pass team that's the issue. Therefore it only makes sense to do some sort of complex ban.

Full Baton Pass is a problem by nature of Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon.

 

[Witip kanto red]

Ok, so I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I have a question...

Is there any particular reason why leading with a heavy hitter doesn't completely stop BP teams? I feel like leading with something like banded tflame or LO weavile would put a stop to BP teams well before they have a chance to accrue these boosts. As for the argument of "but once they have the boosts, they're unstoppable!!", the same can be said for a lot of setup sweepers. How many mons can stop a mega pinsir at +4, or even +2?

Good point, but here is a difference,Mega Pinsir SD x2 or x3 still can be stopped with a sashed /sturdy pokemon,my team have a dugtrio, and he save me from sweeps, but baton pass cannot be stoped so easily, that's the point

 

[Toljik]

Full Baton Pass is a problem by nature of Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon. In fact, the two can sweep an entire team 6-0 by themselves in many cases, unless you specifically pack one of the few counters like Prankster Haze Murkro. While a Baton Pass clause has been proposed (passing only a number of times consecutively or legal on X amount of Pokemon), it's more efficient to ban the two abilities in conjunction with Baton Pass that give the archetype a state of autonomy.

Would it be viable to turn Speed Boost on its head with Trick Room?

Granted, a lot of Trick Room users have trouble taking a Megahorn. But there is no better way to punish Speed boosting.

Maybe Manaphy's Heart Swap? It doesn't stop Scolipede from boosting further, but it goes through Substitute and Magic Bounce and Manaphy is very threatening by itself.

 

[Rotosect]

One thing that bothers me about a potential suspect test for Baton Pass teams is that nothing about it is inherently broken (like, say, Gengarite or Arceus) or uncompetitive (like Moody or Swagger).
Like jpw said it's a solved playstyle in the current metagame. It obviously requires skill to use, since such teams can lose catastrophically if they mis-predict early in the game (and even late-game if the opponent has specifically prepared for them).

Perhaps we should just accept that until the next major metagame shift (probably once the "Z" version or whatever it's going to be called comes out) baton pass is the best team archetype available to us and adapt to it, just like we accepted Snorlax being practically mandatory in every team in GSC.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Would it be viable to turn Speed Boost on its head with Trick Room?

Granted, a lot of Trick Room users have trouble taking a Megahorn. But there is no better way to punish Speed boosting.

Maybe Manaphy's Heart Swap? It doesn't stop Scolipede from boosting further, but it goes through Substitute and Magic Bounce and Manaphy is very threatening by itself.

scolipede doesn't have any damaging moves on baton pass teams

 

[TheDuckChris]

One way to look at BP is to compare to similarly annoying strategies in other games such as the TCG. In the tcg donk decks are generally considered uncompetitive because of how autopilot and matchup reliant they can be. A player can run a card such as First Ticket to beat these teams occasionally, but it weakens their deck against other non-donk decks because of that useless card. How does TCG deal with this situation? They take the match as a possible loss and rely on the fact that the strategy is not reliable.

In the case of baton pass however, it is a lot more reliable and a lot less dependant on luck. Counters exist, but preparing for BP generally weakens your matchup with regular teams. Therefore I would say baton pass definitely is unhealthy for the ladder at least. For tournaments it's a pretty big gamble to bring baton pass as it can result in some embarrasing auto-losses, but not nearly as much as you'd think.

That being said I don't really know what could be done without nerfing "legitimate" strategies other than making a "GUYS PLEASE DONT USE BATON PASS TEAMS" clause, which might work.

 

[NeonNinja96]

Espeon ignores both whirlwind and roar due to magic bounce. Baton Pass also bypasses both trapping moves, such as mean look, and trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag. The OP clearly states that you should only post in this thread if you actually are knowledgable about BP and have experience with it on the ladder, which is something that some people obviously didn't read.

I know that, I stated it because there are so few viable mons with the moves, and they can be stopped because of Magic Bounce. I am trying to demonstrate how hard it is to stop a BP chain

NeonNinja96: I'm actually quite satisfied with the quality of this thread so far. There have been good arguments from both the sides and I'm keeping it clean, deleting uninformed and impolite posts.

Also, to reassure the anti-ban side: right now the Council doesn't support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass. Should we decide to take actions against Baton Pass chains, we'd probably prefer a softer approach. The purpose of this thread is mainly to gather opinions from the playerbase on how the full Baton Pass team archetype is perceived and what kind of nerfs (if any) would be considered acceptable.

The quality has been pretty nice so far, I'm actually quite suprised.
I'm rather surprised that a blanket ban isn't supported by the Council. Perhaps a nice nerf would be a sort of "Chain Clause" if you will, where after X number of Baton Passes within X number of turns, it is prevented.