Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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Albacore

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What is one good reason that Baton Pass should even be thought about being banned?
Hard to counter without niche counters unless you can maintain constant offensive pressure, little need for prediction, the outcome of the match is pretty much decided at the team preview. These are all valid reasons for nerfing (not banning, we're not disussing a ban) BP teams.
Baton Pass teams are really no different than weather teams.
You do know we spent most of gen V nerfing rain teams in many different ways, right?
 
Wow. Baton Pass is causing this much trouble? In my honest opinion you should just learn to deal with it. I mean, what is going to be suspected next? All recovery moves? What is one good reason that Baton Pass should even be thought about being banned? I'm pretty sure its not centralizing the metagame at all. So in essence its just a bunch of butthurt people that got beaten by such a team too many times that want it to be banned. Baton Pass teams are really no different than weather teams.
I'm not sure if you read most of the thread, but the past 17 pages have mostly been us deliberating on possible counters and why pretty much all of them are completely unviable outside of countering BP teams (just like how numel completely stopped Swagplay teams). And unlike weather teams, who this gen actually get limited turns of weather support, Baton Pass has a ton of major advantages over regular teams (even setup teams) that if you took the time to actually read the thread you would find out quite quickly since they have been cited more than enough times.
 
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Reverb

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  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Absolutely. First, BP team require next to no skill to use, allowing mediocre players to beat top players. Second, in order to beat BP chain, one has to over-centralize their team in ways that make worse versus other teams. For example, one may have to run Haze on a Pokemon, a move which is normally useless. I should note that on one of my teams that got to just under 1900, I had Mega-Pinsir and three Pokemon with Taunt (one with Taunt and Roar) and I still had issues against BP chain.
  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Definitely Espeon. Beyond its ability of Magic Bounce, which reflects all phazing and status moves, access to Stored Power makes it particularly deadly. It makes Unaware Pokemon useless, since Unaware doesn't affect the base power boosts Espeon receives. Let's keep in mind that each boost raises Stored Power's base power by 40, allowing Espeon to attack with up to 860 base power.
  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
I would think so, although Mega-Absol might be an issue (of course it has to mega-evolve). I would push for banning Espeon first and foremost for the previously stated reasons. I do not think Scolipede needs to be banned at this time.
  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Yes, I think that would ameliorate the problem. That being said, I think that Baton Pass can be utilized as part of a legitimate strategy and that its only Pokemon like Espeon that make it broken.
  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Yes I would. Options like Scolipede+Espeon certainly come to mind, as well as Scolipede+Espeon+Mr. Mime. I would also support a blanket ban on the Magic Bounce ability.
 
Ok, you set up and pass to a certain member (let's say espeon), and then your opponent brings in their espeon counter (We'll call him Bisharp). If this was any other team, (or you didn't run fairy coverage) you would have to switch out your espeon, giving your opponent a turn to do something like set up, or hit whatever you switch in pretty hard since you are unboosted now. With Baton Pass, you don't even need to worry about your opponent's switch since you can (with minimal loss ot your momentum) bring in your Bisharp Counter (I don't know let's call it Sylveon Hyper Voice is a real pain at +6 sp attack) and with all those boosts not need to worry about anything Bisharp can do to you since you have all these defense boosts and probably +19 speed or something like that. Not only is losing momentum incredibly hard when using BP teams, but so is it for your opponent to regain it once because once you have even the slightest edge the momentum shifts incredibly fast. With regards to the Espeon comment, that's pretty much all Espeon is good for anyways, since it is outclasses as a special attacker, screens setter, and whatever other role you could want other than status/hazard deflector.
I get what you're saying, but it's a bit of an exxageration. For starters, realistically, +6 Special attack isn't gonna happen unless you have Celebi, Togekiss (IE: Nasty Plot users) or your opponent is just plain incompetent. Even then, those two have some pretty glaring weaknesses. Celebi in particular is Pinsir/Talonflame/Scizor bait. Most of the time, all you have is calm mind, and by the time that gets to +6, there's no telling what could have happened to you. In specific regards to Celebi, Aegislash is a huge threat as not only does he directly threaten celebi with Shadow Sneak, but his Sacred Sword ignores the defense boots you've gotten. Of course, if you as a BP player let Aegis get that high, you have messed up, but regardless.

As for momentum, the timing that it's lost can be everything. In order to build up their chains, BP players take a lot of hits, and some of them even get brought down to their sashes. Recovery is sparse among passers, and there are only a few really good clerics (vaporeon, sylveon, umbreon). If for whatever reason, momentum is snapped mid to late game (let's say a stray crit kills espeon), chances are the entire team is in no condition to set up boosts again, and Arceus help them if the foe got an Aegis or a Mawile or a Bisharp setup, or even managed to save their Talonflame or Pinsir for late game.

Dangit, I hate losing my thought mid post. I swear I was going somewhere with this
 
The thing with the argument about BP is that a simple ban isn't exactly the greatest idea since the pokemon aren't necessarily broken outside of the use of BP.
And Blaziken isn't broken without speed boost. I agree with you to an extent, as I do not think banning baton pass outright is a wise move, but making a ban unnecessarily complex just because one of the things that would be banned has other viable uses that aren't ban worthy isn't something Smogon is known for doing. That's why my official position is to ban Espeon and Scolipede, it's just easier for everyone.

I really do see what you're saying, this situation is unique because of the team support necessary, so I'm glad I'm not one of the people who has to choose what to do, but those are just my thoughts
 
That's why my official position is to ban Espeon and Scolipede, it's just easier for everyone.
I'll at least say I am wholly against this. Both of them have their uses outside of BP teams. Pede in particular is a very threatening setup sweeper who can destroy things on his own merit. Espeon is a very good dual screener who has the added benefit of keeping hazards and status away while doing its job. To ban either of them would needlessly cripple a lot of viable strategies, especially when they're only remotely broken when used together in a specific play style.
 
I'll at least say I am wholly against this. Both of them have their uses outside of BP teams. Pede in particular is a very threatening setup sweeper who can destroy things on his own merit. Espeon is a very good dual screener who has the added benefit of keeping hazards and status away while doing its job. To ban either of them would needlessly cripple a lot of viable strategies, especially when they're only remotely broken when used together in a specific play style.
Except for people that want to use QuickPass Scolipede or Offensive Scolipede, which are both OU viable sets.
Read the entire post why don't you?
making a ban unnecessarily complex just because one of the things that would be banned has other viable uses that aren't ban worthy isn't something Smogon is known for doing.
I won't complain against a complex ban, the fact that it's only the entire team that makes this annoying has to be factored in, but complexity is not a desirable trait in bans
 
I get what you're saying, but it's a bit of an exxageration.

As for momentum, the timing that it's lost can be everything.
+1 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 274-324 (98.2 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Even after 1 CM boost (you can get more) you are taking that Bisharp out most of the time (and if you managed to Magic Bounce back rocks, an OHKO). And at +2 speed you outspeed 232 speed Bisharps, so odds are you are outspeeding and OHKO-ing it before it can do much. Granted, how many times does a Baton-Pass team lose momentum mid-game after it has its boosts and is behind its substitutes? You have all the speed and Stored Power boosts you could possibly need to OHKO anything not dark-type, which are completely destroyed by fairy-coverage after a few boosts.

That's why my official position is to ban Espeon and Scolipede, it's just easier for everyone.
I understand where you are coming from, it's better to just not have to deal with these pokemon and end our troubles once and for all (i'm not trying to be condescending I considered this for a while and I think that is a normal view). The problem I see with this is that it would strengthen the Anti-Ban argument because we now are getting rid of pokemon who are otherwise (somewhat?) useful outside of BP, painting us as the 'ban-happy players' who we most certainly are not.
 

Aragorn the King

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Read the entire post why don't you?
I did. Smogon didn't ban Drizzle, did they? Did they ban Swift Swim? Did they ban Gorebyss from RU? No. They let Politoed, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Gorebyss maintain viability, while still nerfing the factors that made them OP. Banning Politoed would've been a solution to the problem, but was it ideal? Absolutely not. Banning Espeon and Scolipede would be similar to banning Politoed or Kingdra from OU Gen V. Neither is the right way to do things.
 
I understand where you are coming from, it's better to just not have to deal with these pokemon and end our troubles once and for all (i'm not trying to be condescending I considered this for a while and I think that is a normal view). The problem I see with this is that it would strengthen the Anti-Ban argument because we now are getting rid of pokemon who are otherwise (somewhat?) useful outside of BP, painting us as the 'ban-happy players' who we most certainly are not.
I'm pretty sure we couldn't care less about what people think about us, and they'll think we're ban happy no matter what we do. Since preserving Scolipede's other sets should be close to dead last on our list of priorities, I see no problem with outright banning him.

i had read some options but banning espeon would not solve the problem, because theres still xatu a weird uu magic bouncer to gain espeon sit on the team , equally talking on bannng scolipead theres still ninjask, or adding some agility user on the chain.
Like Mango said, Xatu's not a problem, and baton pass was never a big problem when there was just Ninjask, so I think just banning Espeon or Espeon and Scolipede will solve the problem nicely.

I did. Smogon didn't ban Drizzle, did they? Did they ban Swift Swim? Did they ban Gorebyss from RU? No. They let Politoed, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Gorebyss maintain viability, while still nerfing the factors that made them OP. Banning Politoed would've been a solution to the problem, but was it ideal? Absolutely not. Banning Espeon and Scolipede would be similar to banning Politoed or Kingdra from OU Gen V. Neither is the right way to do things.
I will remind you about how much people appreciated rain in gen 5. That drizzle + Swift Swim ban is one of the most controversial bans to date, and that's saying something. There's a decent number of people who would like to pretend gen 5 just never even happened as it's largely considered the most unhealthy meta game.

I'll also remind you that they DID just ban Excadrill, and nobody ever complains about that. It was an effective way to deal with a problem, and it was also not complex.

The justifications for not banning Kingdra and other swift swimmers stretch me sometimes, and so do the reasons people use to justify unnecessary complex bans for this topic
 
One of many games against even a generic Baton Pass.

I clearly outplay the opponent, I better predict, and I utilize Taunt Gengar. This game shows just how Taunt isn't enough. Granted, I made 2 misplays, switching Gengar out on Sylveon instead of attempting Taunt (but I predicted an Espeon switch), and I did not Scarf Trick the Vaporeon when I had the small, rare chance.

Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon removes autonomy, even with a fast Taunt like Gengar. Acquiring boosts is trivial, and thus forces players to incorporate dedicated counters like Prankster Murkrow and/or suboptimal answers like Red Card users, etc.

Remember, not even Prankster Taunt is a guaranteed answer, just by sheer virtue of Magic Bounce.

Baton Pass chain is a top ladder archetype because of Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon, as a Suspect Test would confirm.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109556769
 
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One of many games against even a generic Baton Pass.

I clearly outplay the opponent, I better predict, and I utilize Taunt Gengar. This game shows just how Taunt isn't enough.

P.S. Can anyone explain how unboosted Espeon outpaced Gengar and KOed with Stored Power?
This is probably one of the better replays showing how losing momentum in BP isn't all that detrimental so long as you have Scolipede alive to auto-speed boost. Actually after seeing that replay I can understand why getting rid of scolipede might not be such a bad idea, since subbing damage doesn't really matter when all you need to do is last until you have enough speed/defense to get the job done.

Also, for gengar&espeon, it would be a speed-tie if both were timid 252 speed, so 50/50 you were on the wrong side of that coinflip.
 

jrp

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One of many games against even a generic Baton Pass.

I clearly outplay the opponent, I better predict, and I utilize Taunt Gengar. This game shows just how Taunt isn't enough. Granted, I made 2 misplays, switching Gengar out on Sylveon instead of attempting Taunt (but I predicted an Espeon switch), and I did not Scarf Trick the Vaporeon when I had the small, rare chance.

Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon creates a state of autonomy, even with a fast Taunt like Gengar. Acquiring boosts is trivial, and thus forces players to incorporate dedicated counters like Prankster Murkrow and/or suboptimal answers like Red Card users, etc.

Remember, not even Prankster Taunt is a guaranteed answer, just by sheer virtue of Magic Bounce.

Baton Pass chain is a top ladder archetype because of Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon, as a Suspect Test would confirm.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109556769
looks like he was running timid 252 speed espeon, which you're not really supposed to do as espeon typically wants bulk invested but it worked in this case. Looks like you just lost the speed tie twice in a row
 
what about simply ban the stored power ? the only attack with no cap may be considered enough reason to no one miss it
 
One of many games against even a generic Baton Pass.

I clearly outplay the opponent, I better predict, and I utilize Taunt Gengar. This game shows just how Taunt isn't enough.

P.S. Can anyone explain how unboosted Espeon outpaced Gengar and KOed with Stored Power?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109556769
Turn 2: you use shadow ball instead of taunt. Really, if you run an offensive team and prevent scolipede from passing it's speed boost, then you're at a huge advantage against a BP team. Then again zapdos falls later on so this doesn't make much of a difference.

Turn 13: you know that he's running max speed Espeon since it ties with gengar and takes it out. This was bad luck, but right on the next turn bullet punch would have easily taken out Espeon and ended the chain, especially since Espeon packs no defense investment. Also considering that Espeon is the crux of this baton pass team, a single Bullet punch would have pretty much won you the game.

The loss of taunt gengar was the turning point, since it could have easily prevented BP attempts from most of your opponent's pokemon. So yeah, bad luck was one of the reasons for this loss, though speed ties don't really make baton pass broken.
 
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Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

No.

There are enough Pokemon who can outwit a Baton Pass team if they were just included in more teams, period. Running things like SubCoil Zygarde that use Ninjask/Scolipede as set-up bait while it wastes time letting Zyggy get enough boosts to either kill something with Earthquake/Extremespeed or otherwise phaze it out with Dragon Tail is often hilarious. Talonflame itself can just derail two party members while operating a Choice Band. If needed, someone with Haze (I personally love Milotic for this, but Quagsire, Cofagrigus, Dusknoir, etc are also really funny for this role - not all of them are viable, obviously, but there's still enough things which derail BP) will just laugh at the silly Espeon thinking it's OU viable outside of Baton Pass. Does anybody use Mega-Abomasnow outside of me? I think it laughs in Vaporeon's face, albeit that's just me. It or Mega-Venusaur can just use Vappy as Leech Seed bait (if it's in the lead slot), and Leech Seed gets carried with anything else that gets BP'd. Otherwise, I can just priority Switcheroo with either a Whimsicott or a Klefki to give something a Flame Orb or other crippling status before a Sub is set up (I always expect a Ninjask or Scolipede to have White Herb, so Taunt isn't too useful - Klefki doesn't come with Taunt doe). Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Mow, Rotom-Fridge, Prankster Sableye, and many others can also Trick a Choice item onto a Pokemon in the Baton Pass chain to render them utterly useless for the entire match. While Drizzle is nerfed, Choice Specs Politoed can still put the hurt on something. Otherwise, Politoed and Celebi are still pretty good and can use Perish Song, among others (While I normally try not to advocate NFEs or advise against NFEs, Prankster Murkrow's pretty good for Perish Song usage, too).

By the time a BP chain gets going it could easily take hazard damage. If something isn't getting T-Waved by Jolteon, Prankster Klefki, Thundurus-I, or something ludicrously speedy... you're not in any immediate danger. Just get something that normally hits like a truck, chuck a Choice Band/Choice Specs on it, and watch those Subs easily break. Doesn't Landorus-T do massive damage with its U-turn on the regular and basically laugh in Espeon's face while wearing a Scarf? Or am I grossly mistaken in my numerous attempts to run a Baton Pass team that have failed? I get the feeling people underestimate Crobat and Chandelure, as their Infiltrator sets are actually pretty gorgeous. I'm surprised they aren't being used more often. While Mr. Mime kind of laughs at these, moves that naturally go past Substitutes, like Bug Buzz and Hyper Voice, work wonders to distort other Baton Pass users. Something like Meloetta or Volcarona is what I'd recommend against these guys.

If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

There's not a whole lot that really pushes Baton Pass over the edge. Honestly, shutting down the Baton Pass chain is as easy as getting rid of Mr. Mime. His Soundproof ability in conjunction with being really good in Baton Pass teams is what would push BP over the edge. I'd probably also hazard a notion that Sylveon's also kind of to blame for people being butthurt about losing to BP teams, even though mono-Fairy's not that good when Sylveon has a bad physical defense in need of patching up, and there are enough physically-based Steel-types to give Sylveon hell. It doesn't help that Mr. Mime got buffed this generation by having Psychic/Fairy as a really good defensive typing. Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

Yes. Ban Mr. Mime, then if needed ban Sylveon. Sylveon's like a better version of Espeon and Umbreon if they combined and, instead of getting Dark/Psychic and being easily U-turn'd to death, getting a solid defensive typing (Mono-Fairy's above average) with which would require me to get a physically-based Poison or Steel 'mon to slam dunk to the ground. Two Fairies, the latter (Sylveon) also really good at being a defensive Cleric, can easily be sent to Uber if that's what it takes.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

*laughs for a few seconds maniacally, before eventually calming down* Absolutely not. Only two, possibly three if I wanted to take Espeon with more than a grain of salt, viable Pokemon are causing trouble with Baton Pass. Preventing DryPasses to avoid Pursuits and QuickPasses to not have a Pokemon's ass thoroughly kicked is just silly, and even though Gen VI OU isn't as bad as Gen V OU, making it bad by doing blanket bans on moves is already happening anyway.
Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Complex bans give people a reason to be butthurt about Blaziken still not being accessible in OU, and for that reason alone I'm against complex bans. There are also vastly superior reasons with which I'm viciously against complex bans: We're not supposed to use complex bans to solve problems; it goes against our own policies and principles! It also makes Zarel's job harder than it really needs to be!
 
I can't seem to follow why people think Baton Pass limits teambuilding. The presence of offensive spike stackers such as Deoxys-D force stall teams to run a Magic Mirror Pokemon, Defog, or Rapid Spin, but it would be outrageous to claim that spike-stackers "limit teambuilding". Running Defog/Rapid Spin is smart, effective team-building, since those moves or pokemon are necessary tools to combat a strong, somewhat prevalent archetype (spike stacking offense). The same argument can be given for Baton Pass; running Haze is just a smart decision to make if you want to win higher up in the ladder. Haze isn't even a deadweight if you're against a regular team, unless that team happens to run no boosting pokemon, just like how Rapid Spin is a deadweight if your opponent carries 0 entry hazards. And both Ghost-Type Curse and Perish Song are effective at forcing switches and being win-conditions against last Pokemon setup sweepers.

If you don't prepare for Baton Pass, you'll lose to it, just as whole well-made teams used to crumble to CM Reuniclus or Psycho Shift/Cosmic Power Sigilyph in Gen V, because no one had ever thought about seriously preparing for it until high ranking players started running them.
 
  • Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Yes, the centralization it induces upon the metagame is of course problematic.

  • If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
The general erratic and "all or nothing" nature of the strategy and very importantly the fact that it does not require much skill to use.

  • Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
It could, but that is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable. Those Pokemon are perfectly fine on their own, it's specifically their contributions to the BP strategy that helps exacerbating this strategy.

  • Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
I think the move is fine, but full Baton Pass chains are not.

  • Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
I think there should just be a maximum of 2 Pokemon with Baton Pass per team.
 
Anyone considered focus energy baton passing? Considering the new mechanics concerning crit rate with the 6th generation, a pokemon that has both focus energy and scope lens is guaranteed to land critical hits until it switches out. I'd see Hydreigon as something absolutely broken after agility, CM/nasty plot, and focus energy are passed to it. Draco meteors will not fall in power due to the 100% crit rate, and hydreigon also has the movepool to tear things up.
 
what about simply ban the stored power ? the only attack with no cap may be considered enough reason to no one miss it
This is a pretty cool idea, although Cosmic Power / Stored Power Clefable is viable and nowhere near broken. Maybe a ban on Stored Power + Baton Pass would do the trick?
 
I can't seem to follow why people think Baton Pass limits teambuilding. The presence of offensive spike stackers such as Deoxys-D force stall teams to run a Magic Mirror Pokemon, Defog, or Rapid Spin, but it would be outrageous to claim that spike-stackers "limit teambuilding". Running Defog/Rapid Spin is smart, effective team-building, since those moves or pokemon are necessary tools to combat a strong, somewhat prevalent archetype (spike stacking offense). The same argument can be given for Baton Pass; running Haze is just a smart decision to make if you want to win higher up in the ladder. Haze isn't even a deadweight if you're against a regular team, unless that team happens to run no boosting pokemon, just like how Rapid Spin is a deadweight if your opponent carries 0 entry hazards. And both Ghost-Type Curse and Perish Song are effective at forcing switches and being win-conditions against last Pokemon setup sweepers.

If you don't prepare for Baton Pass, you'll lose to it, just as whole well-made teams used to crumble to CM Reuniclus or Psycho Shift/Cosmic Power Sigilyph in Gen V, because no one had ever thought about seriously preparing for it until high ranking players started running them.
Pretty bad arguments here that I think it'd be worth discrediting...if you're specialising your team to beat Baton Pass, the list of things which will even give you a chance to win is ridiculously small, even smaller than that of (your example) viable Spinners/Defoggers/hazard removers; and very few of those Pokemon are considered optimal teambuilding choices, e.g. would be used without their ability to beat Baton Pass, whereas many common Defoggers in particular would still see high usage if Defog was erased from their movepool.

It's also worth noting that hazard removal is essential to combat virtually all playstyles besides the most extreme forms of HO (including Baton Pass), whereas most means of handling Baton Pass have fairly niche or rare use, which is another reason the comparison to playing vs spikestacking teams is nonsense.

But even if there were widespread means to deal with Baton Pass, I'd still consider it worthy of a ban simply because it will always deliver a win, irregardless of skill, unless the other team has a counter for it. Consider a hypothetical sweeper which is an automatic win if it sets up safely (e.g. it outspeeds and OHKO's any opposing Pokemon). It still has to get into play and find a free turn in which to set up, which gives the opponent a means to play around it. There is no way to play around Baton Pass, no matter the gulf in skill between you and your opponent. They follow the formula, and either you have the means to beat them, or you lose. For guaranteeing that the match is won or lost at the teambuilding stage, Baton Pass in its current state needs to be banned.

If we imagine the best option, banning Espeon from running Baton Pass, suddenly you have a whole slew of options with which to beat Baton Pass, which a BPass team would have to actually find ways past during the match like any other playstyle. It would likely result in Baton Pass teams being more immediately offensive. I can only see this as a positive result.
 
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Rotosect

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I made a post about this earlier but no one responded to it lol.

Gist of it was: Swift Swim was not an overpowered ability. Drizzle was (arguably) not an over powered ability. Kingdra and friends were not overpowered Pokemon. However, powerful Swift Swimmers, when used with Drizzle, were overpowered. They were faster than everything except scarfed Raikou and their rain-boosted water STABs hit extremely hard. They could only be countered by handful of pokemon and they were almost impossible to revenge kill because of how damn fast they were.

But I agree with you; "ban an entire playstyle" is a poor choice. Drizzle+Swift Swim ban solved a problem with offensive rain teams, but it didn't get rid of offensive rain teams, it just made them manageable since they couldn't just spam SPECS KINGDRA AND KABUTOPS IN RAIN LEL.

If a complex ban is to be made, since it's agreed that banning Espeon or whatever isn't an option, it should be a ban that nerfs BP teams to a satisfactory point, not one that utterly demolishes it as strategy as a "no more than three BP users on a team" rule would.
Drizzle (and by extension, weather abilities) overcentralized the entire BW meta and to this day many agree that was the root of the problem. How else do you explain stuff like Torn-T being banned? Manual Rain Dance was nowhere to be seen in OU After that because Drizzle was just too good to pass up.

If action is taken here it won't just make BP teams "more manageable", it will outright kill the playstyle.
 

Super Mario Bro

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If my opinion means anything at all anymore, I support the idea to make a complex ban on Stored Power + Baton Pass on the same Pokemon for a few different reasons:
  1. It prevents us from having to pick an arbitrary number with regards to how many Pokes with BP we would allow on a team.
  2. It drastically slows down full Baton Pass teams without completely killing them, and it also preserves other strategies related to BP.
  3. It does not nerf Espeon as a whole, which a complex ban on Magic Bounce + Baton Pass would do.
 
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