Stockpile is nice and all, but anyone can beat them with a simple phase or Toxic. There's a reason defense boosts aren't commonplace in OU.
I like your idea of combining it with Weakness Policy however.
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Move Baton Pass
- Thread starter Jojobobo
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I like your idea of combining it with Weakness Policy however.
Baton Pass like you guys are talking about isn't really a Baton Pass team at all. Pure BP has the following structure:
- Scolipede to pass Speed boosts so teammates can outrun things whilst they boost, making things a lot easier.
- Mr. Mime because it's immune to Roar, Perish Song, and Dragon Tail, and can create setup opportunities w/ CM vs. Dragons thanks to Encore.
- Pick 1: Mawile, Smeargle, or Mega Scizor -- the former and latter as Defense passers, or Smeargle as an Ingrain passer (usually Mega Scizor)
- Zapdos or Sylveon as a Special Defense passer (with Charge or CM) and back-up way to handle Roar (Zapdos). Also can attack (TBolt or Hyper Voice), which is nice. Sylveon handles Megazard Y better than anything else (that's the reason you would want to use it).
- Vaporeon as a Defense passer, and has Wish to keep teammates in the chain healthy (espec. from hazards), and can attack with Scald
- Espeon to clean house with Stored Power + Dazzling Gleam
This is a perfectly viable playstyle. BP isn't that easy to work with. It's all about assessing power level. How many boosts do you need for Espeon to clean with Stored Power? When should you pass? Should you keep boosting? Should you pass? However, a well-played BP team can destroy bar untimely hax and Haze.
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The other thing that's good is Scolipede quick pass (w/ SD and Speed Boosts to pass). Pairing that with a strong physically offensive teammate that's slow, such as Crawdaunt, or anything along those lines, is excellent and can work wonders.
- Scolipede to pass Speed boosts so teammates can outrun things whilst they boost, making things a lot easier.
- Mr. Mime because it's immune to Roar, Perish Song, and Dragon Tail, and can create setup opportunities w/ CM vs. Dragons thanks to Encore.
- Pick 1: Mawile, Smeargle, or Mega Scizor -- the former and latter as Defense passers, or Smeargle as an Ingrain passer (usually Mega Scizor)
- Zapdos or Sylveon as a Special Defense passer (with Charge or CM) and back-up way to handle Roar (Zapdos). Also can attack (TBolt or Hyper Voice), which is nice. Sylveon handles Megazard Y better than anything else (that's the reason you would want to use it).
- Vaporeon as a Defense passer, and has Wish to keep teammates in the chain healthy (espec. from hazards), and can attack with Scald
- Espeon to clean house with Stored Power + Dazzling Gleam
This is a perfectly viable playstyle. BP isn't that easy to work with. It's all about assessing power level. How many boosts do you need for Espeon to clean with Stored Power? When should you pass? Should you keep boosting? Should you pass? However, a well-played BP team can destroy bar untimely hax and Haze.
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The other thing that's good is Scolipede quick pass (w/ SD and Speed Boosts to pass). Pairing that with a strong physically offensive teammate that's slow, such as Crawdaunt, or anything along those lines, is excellent and can work wonders.
This basically covers baton pass, although SmashPass (Smeargle) and Quiver Dance Pass (Venomoth) probably deserve to be mentioned. Also, I would like to make it very clear that there is no longer ANY reason to ever use Ninjask. Just don't.
Gliscor has potential offensive presence and can run baton pass
Quiver passing received a huge buff as you can pass a few boosts to exploud who becomes a rocking ball with a quiver dance or two under his belt
So this exists.
This strategy is more than viable. The guy in the very top of the ladder right now got there using it:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102503264
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102503264
Wow that guy was mad over nothing.
This replay is also from the guy at the top of ladder, only one I have.
I don't have much of an opinion on BP teams, was just letting everyone know this thread exists. People are saying it's strong, but to me it seems like a high-risk, high-reward strategy that can get a win condition in relatively few turns, but crumbles apart if something goes wrong or if it gets hit hard in the first few turns.
I'm not so sure about trying to pass Weakness Policy boosts. If your strategy relies on your opponent hitting you with super effective attacks, you're taking a huge risk.
It has serious support for a suspect test in VR, but I think people are just overreacting to it being everywher on the suspect ladder (to counter Swagger teams). It's a bit much to dedicate a team to countering both Swagger and BP.
It has serious support for a suspect test in VR, but I think people are just overreacting to it being everywher on the suspect ladder (to counter Swagger teams). It's a bit much to dedicate a team to countering both Swagger and BP.
I saw a lot of BP teams in the ladder before the suspect test, I think it has been catching up for some time now.
Maybe the suspect just gave it a boost in popularity.
He got muted during his own battle. Wow, that's a new level of owned.
Maybe the suspect just gave it a boost in popularity.
He got muted during his own battle. Wow, that's a new level of owned.
denissss ran a solid BP team at the top of the ladder when 1800 or so was the top. Battled him a couple times and I was able to go maybe 3/5 with him because sludge wave Landorus just wrecked his whole fucking team unless he managed to predict well enough to pass Sylveon some speed boosts on an earth power or psychic and start CMing before I could get the 2hko with sludge wave.
I've personally tried it and it just has too many random losses for my taste. You never know when you're gonna eat a random taunt from Gengar when you thought you were safe. Or when that Thundurus user out predicts you and goes for the nasty plot to destroy your team while you sit there using magic coat like an idiot. You can win more consistently with traditional offensive teams so I stick with that.
I've personally tried it and it just has too many random losses for my taste. You never know when you're gonna eat a random taunt from Gengar when you thought you were safe. Or when that Thundurus user out predicts you and goes for the nasty plot to destroy your team while you sit there using magic coat like an idiot. You can win more consistently with traditional offensive teams so I stick with that.
Remember in gen 5 when people complained about weather teams being very matchup-based, as in you could tell from team preview who was going to win and be right 90% of the time (assuming both players were equal in skill)? Gen 6 BP teams are pretty much like that.
If your opponent has Sableye, Mega Pinsir (and you don't have Zapdos) or Politoed with Perish Song (and you don't have Mr. Mime) you pretty much lose. Other annoyances include Ditto, Talonflame, Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy and Volcarona (especially ChestoRest variants).
Otherwise with skillful play you can ensure a win condition in very few turns:
+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 378-445 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220 BP is achievable with 2 Iron Defenses, 2 Speed Boosts and 2 Calm Minds, so if your opponent isn't prepared you can potentially start sweeping from turn 5 or 6.
Dark types are handled by Sylveon (who gets Stored Power too by the way), while everything else falls to Stored Power.
If your opponent has Sableye, Mega Pinsir (and you don't have Zapdos) or Politoed with Perish Song (and you don't have Mr. Mime) you pretty much lose. Other annoyances include Ditto, Talonflame, Mega Gardevoir, Manaphy and Volcarona (especially ChestoRest variants).
Otherwise with skillful play you can ensure a win condition in very few turns:
+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 378-445 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220 BP is achievable with 2 Iron Defenses, 2 Speed Boosts and 2 Calm Minds, so if your opponent isn't prepared you can potentially start sweeping from turn 5 or 6.
Dark types are handled by Sylveon (who gets Stored Power too by the way), while everything else falls to Stored Power.
I found it worked quite well on Mew, he has the bulk to pull it off and can do a variety of other things on your team so even without the boost (Defog, etc.) he's never going to be just dead weight. It works especially well with Rock Polish, letting you out speed another SE hit turn 2 effectively passing on a White Herb Shell Smash. It's not without risk but with the WP Rock Polish combo at the very least you're going to pass speed, if not something far deadlier.
As someone who played BP teams recently in huge amount from Jan to Feb and reach pretty high up the ladder, I would like to say this.
Fully dedicated BP teams rarely have enough rooms to fit any move they want. It's usually this, Stored Power to sweep and a fairy/alternate move for dark types.
Scolipede needs to run enough EV into speed to outspeed trick timid rotoms, mental herb is also more favourable than leftovers.
Vaporean is used because it is a great physical wall and has access to Roar. Roar is needed to stop set up sweeper. Encore from either or both Mr. Mime and Smeargle are good too because they stop passive boosters right in their tracks. Thing likes Calm Mind, Cosmic Powder, Swords dance, Nasty Plot etc. You'll be able to use to Spore, Ingrain, Calm Mind meanwhile. Like to add that people usually switch in with Aegislash against Mr Mime and shadow ball is the most common move used and it's especially great if you bp to smeargle and encore it.
So what if they use speed boosting moves? Because you cannot permanent-encore if they end up faster than you, that's when you BP to Vaporean and roar them out if you can't take them atm ( very little boost ). If you can kill them directly, then by all means BP to Espeon / sweeper instead.
Mr.Mime has immunity to Dragon Tail as well as Perish Song and Roar because of its ability. Not to mention, it is a fast pokemon, so if you tried to set up in its face, you'll likely get encore.
You'll need a lot of substitutes within the team, stopping status hazard is important but most importantly, you need to deal with crits.
BP teams cannot afford to trade blows, so they have to set up substitute first to prevent ohko. During this time, even if they are well/fully boosted, without a substitute they have that 10% chance to lose if they get ohko. My Espeon with 4 CM under his belt just got ohko at full health by a Focus Slash Galvantula. Nothing I can do here. Crits and secondary effects by nature work against dedicated BP team and you just need to take one out, the momentum is gone and is very hard to build it up again.
What are the great threats against BP team?
I would say it's less about taunters/trick and WW/Roar users. Yes, random pokemons with taunt/trick that you didn't expect hurts but most people run them in a very predictable ways. Fast pokemons or on walls. Ingrain works against WW/Roar, even without, you have Espeon and Mr.Mime. WW is more a trouble than Roar. The move Curse is a default win most of the time.
Be very aggressive right at the start. Most BP team users know by experience how much boost they need to survive physical/special onslaught. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir. Volcarona are nice picks.
Fully dedicated BP teams rarely have enough rooms to fit any move they want. It's usually this, Stored Power to sweep and a fairy/alternate move for dark types.
Scolipede needs to run enough EV into speed to outspeed trick timid rotoms, mental herb is also more favourable than leftovers.
Vaporean is used because it is a great physical wall and has access to Roar. Roar is needed to stop set up sweeper. Encore from either or both Mr. Mime and Smeargle are good too because they stop passive boosters right in their tracks. Thing likes Calm Mind, Cosmic Powder, Swords dance, Nasty Plot etc. You'll be able to use to Spore, Ingrain, Calm Mind meanwhile. Like to add that people usually switch in with Aegislash against Mr Mime and shadow ball is the most common move used and it's especially great if you bp to smeargle and encore it.
So what if they use speed boosting moves? Because you cannot permanent-encore if they end up faster than you, that's when you BP to Vaporean and roar them out if you can't take them atm ( very little boost ). If you can kill them directly, then by all means BP to Espeon / sweeper instead.
Mr.Mime has immunity to Dragon Tail as well as Perish Song and Roar because of its ability. Not to mention, it is a fast pokemon, so if you tried to set up in its face, you'll likely get encore.
You'll need a lot of substitutes within the team, stopping status hazard is important but most importantly, you need to deal with crits.
BP teams cannot afford to trade blows, so they have to set up substitute first to prevent ohko. During this time, even if they are well/fully boosted, without a substitute they have that 10% chance to lose if they get ohko. My Espeon with 4 CM under his belt just got ohko at full health by a Focus Slash Galvantula. Nothing I can do here. Crits and secondary effects by nature work against dedicated BP team and you just need to take one out, the momentum is gone and is very hard to build it up again.
What are the great threats against BP team?
I would say it's less about taunters/trick and WW/Roar users. Yes, random pokemons with taunt/trick that you didn't expect hurts but most people run them in a very predictable ways. Fast pokemons or on walls. Ingrain works against WW/Roar, even without, you have Espeon and Mr.Mime. WW is more a trouble than Roar. The move Curse is a default win most of the time.
Be very aggressive right at the start. Most BP team users know by experience how much boost they need to survive physical/special onslaught. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir. Volcarona are nice picks.
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Yea, this one works great too. Just to switch in as early as possible for quagsire
Yes, I agreed.
Whenever I look at the team preview, I will know roughly my chances of winning and the threats I need to negate at the start. If the opponent pack some of these pokemons and knew what I'm going to do, my chances of losing greatly increase.
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I've played Baton Pass both gen 5 and gen 6 to the top of the ladders. Its definitely viable. People still hate is as much as ever though... :/
Most people are ill-informed about Baton Pass and its success rate. Sure you can quick pass Tail Glow or Shell Smash, but those are gimmicky and never work consistently. Likewise, having a standard receiver like dragonite/lucario/megagross like in the D/P era is gimmicky at best. The only viable Baton Pass teams known as "Defensive Baton Pass teams" and have 6 Baton Passers with no standard receiver. They are built just like a stall team and have a counter ready for anything you throw out.
There are basically two viable Defensive Baton Pass teams going around right now and I am currently in the process of writing a guide on both of them. The one in the in replay above, as well as another that uses Gliscor and Mr. Mime over Zapdos and Smeargle.
As far as counters and checks go, in the current XY OU meta, there are very few. Hyper offense, Bulky offensive, volt-turn and Stall are all easily beaten by Defensive Baton Pass. The only real problems are specific pokemon running specific sets:
Thundurus is probably the most viable check to Baton Pass teams (Nasty Plot and Taunt), followed by Mega Banette (Taunt and Destiny Bond). Ditto is also a threat if the team stacks strong priority users to break Substitutes. Yet there is even a specific set that Espeon can run to survive a Ditto's stored power and get a return kill with its own (based on the IV difference).
Haze is also a great option, but the only real viable haze user at top tier play is Crobat, who dies easily to Baton Passers. Other than those, everything else is essentially a joke. (Quagsire, for example, is still 1hko by Stored Power).
All in all, Baton Pass is still a very strong strategy when played correctly. Quick Pass and Chain Pass are a thing of the past, but Defensive Baton Pass is extremely strong right now. It's ability to succeed rests in the fact that there is a common set of pokemon in the OU tier currently and the majority of sets are predictable:
There are plenty counters to Baton Pass on paper like mold breaker haxorous running roar or prankster murkrow with Haze or Perish Song. But lets be honest, the probability of seeing those is slim to none, right now....
Once more people start to play Baton Pass, we can expect its success rate to diminish as people start to run unstoppable counters.
Most people are ill-informed about Baton Pass and its success rate. Sure you can quick pass Tail Glow or Shell Smash, but those are gimmicky and never work consistently. Likewise, having a standard receiver like dragonite/lucario/megagross like in the D/P era is gimmicky at best. The only viable Baton Pass teams known as "Defensive Baton Pass teams" and have 6 Baton Passers with no standard receiver. They are built just like a stall team and have a counter ready for anything you throw out.
There are basically two viable Defensive Baton Pass teams going around right now and I am currently in the process of writing a guide on both of them. The one in the in replay above, as well as another that uses Gliscor and Mr. Mime over Zapdos and Smeargle.
As far as counters and checks go, in the current XY OU meta, there are very few. Hyper offense, Bulky offensive, volt-turn and Stall are all easily beaten by Defensive Baton Pass. The only real problems are specific pokemon running specific sets:
Thundurus is probably the most viable check to Baton Pass teams (Nasty Plot and Taunt), followed by Mega Banette (Taunt and Destiny Bond). Ditto is also a threat if the team stacks strong priority users to break Substitutes. Yet there is even a specific set that Espeon can run to survive a Ditto's stored power and get a return kill with its own (based on the IV difference).
Haze is also a great option, but the only real viable haze user at top tier play is Crobat, who dies easily to Baton Passers. Other than those, everything else is essentially a joke. (Quagsire, for example, is still 1hko by Stored Power).
All in all, Baton Pass is still a very strong strategy when played correctly. Quick Pass and Chain Pass are a thing of the past, but Defensive Baton Pass is extremely strong right now. It's ability to succeed rests in the fact that there is a common set of pokemon in the OU tier currently and the majority of sets are predictable:
There are plenty counters to Baton Pass on paper like mold breaker haxorous running roar or prankster murkrow with Haze or Perish Song. But lets be honest, the probability of seeing those is slim to none, right now....
Once more people start to play Baton Pass, we can expect its success rate to diminish as people start to run unstoppable counters.
Yes, I would be all for merging our articles! My current article focuses mainly on Defensive Baton Pass teams, since they are really the only viable style of Baton Pass these days. It currently assumes a lot of preliminary knowledge about Baton Pass, but I'm trying to make it also applicable to people who have never played Baton Pass before. Feel free to check out the WIP here.
Send me a PM and we can figure out how to merge the two ideas. There's still a lot of work to done!
Please correct me if I am wrong, as I have never tried it myself, but Unaware ability negates any stat up when receiving or dealing attacks, so stored power at +0 does next to nothing to Unaware Quacksire and with that, Haze should be practically an autowin button against BP teams.
This guy (or a different guy using the same team) has been at or near the top of the ladder for a few months now. I saw someone use this team in an SPL match as well.
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