Move Baton Pass

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So I don't know how good I'm going to be about this whole analysis lark, but By Christ I'm going to give it a shot! This analysis is subjective to my own opinions on the current state of the meta, feel free to criticise those assumptions but don't sway too far from the topic of Baton Pass (which if you're not down with the cool lingo is referred to as BP for short). As always you can dedicate a whole team to this strategy, or you can dump one utility BPer in your team and hope to slyly get the boost.

Baton Pass - For those of you who don't know it's a move that lets you pass on stat changes and certain volatile conditions to other pokemon, such as:
  • Aqua Ring
  • Confusion status
  • Curse status (when used by a Ghost on the Baton Passer)
  • Embargo
  • Focus Energy / other altered critical hit rates
  • Gastro Acid
  • Ingrain
  • Leech Seed
  • Lock-On
  • Magnet Rise
  • Mind Reader
  • Perish Song's count
  • Power Trick
  • Substitute (keeps HP of original user)
This is of course nothing new (please tell me if there is something relevant to Gen VI that must be added to the list). However with Gen VI new considerations have been introduced that factor into the way Baton Pass teams play.

New Baton Pass Goodies:

Weakness Policy - Gives a +2 attack and special attack move when you are hit with a SE move; I cannot stress how good this is for Baton Pass teams. If you have this on a fairly bulky mon and use a speed boosting move (Agility, Rock Polish, Shift Gear, DD, etc.) in one turn you can be looking at +2 speed, +2 attack and +2 special attack - next turn hopefully you can hopefully outspeed the competition to Baton Pass to your sweeper.

Weakness Policy is great in that as long as you can survive the initial hit you can pass on quite significant boosts to something else. Even if your opponent is aware you may be using Baton Pass Weakness Policy, they then have to essentially use less effective moves to eliminate you producing a Catch-22 situation. With the prevalence of Knock Off, U-Turn and ghost type attacks in this generation, psychic type Weakness Policy BPers make great additions to a Baton Pass team.

Priority Reliance - Priority is all over the current meta (Talonflame, multiple megas, Azumarill, Aegislash, etc.), I don't think people are going to dispute that point overly much. I was originally going to list this as a neutral point, however I think overall it is a positive point for Baton Pass teams: if you pass both bulk and speed to a recipient who can raise their own attack you can tank a priority hit and then hopefully KO in return. Priority reliance seems to have produced a lesser usage of scarfs too, meaning that at the +2 speed mark even uninvested speed pokemon reasonable base speed pokemon can be powerful.

Critical Hit Nerf - Critical hits now only do x1.5 damage instead of x2.0, but still negate your defense boosts. This means that both pokemon trying to boost and your recipients aren't KO'd by stray crits as often as in the past.

Fairy Type - Really a more minor point here, but fairies are dragon immune. That means no Dragon Tail if you BP to a fairy, and one less phazing option to worry about.

Megas - Both as Baton Passers (Mawile, Medicham, Scizor and Absol) and recipients, megas have a lot to offer. Mega-Absol is notable in that it can't be Tricked or Taunted and can Reflect any hazard with Magic Bounce, making it an ideal passer and recipient.

Defog - Again more of a general point, but it's easier to bring your sweeper in without hazards now.

Electric Pokemon Can't Be Paralysed - Yeah that's pretty much the whole point right there.

New Baton Pass Crappies:

Sticky Web - When Sticky Web is in effect, every time you Baton Pass you gain -1 speed. For me, speed is the most important thing to pass to recipients so this always hits hard.

Prankster Prevalence - Pranksters are most definitely a thing this gen, so you definitely need a contingency for priority Taunt and status.

Grass Immunity to Grass Status Moves - This effects Smeargle primarily, but there's also some subtlety I'll get into later involving Magic Coat.

Old Baton Pass Crappies:

Taunt - You need to make sure you outspeed that which is trying to Taunt you.

Phaze - Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, Roar and Topsy-Turvy (I guess I should have put that under new, but it's so niche with only Malamar using it); these are phazing strategies you need to be aware of that can either reverse or eliminate stat boosts.

Haze and Clear Smog - It will eliminate your stat boosts, fortunately I've only noticed Haze in Cofagrigus so far commonly in OU and Clear Smog on Amoonguss; see either of these pokemon and get very paranoid.

Trick and Switcheroo - Can prevent your Baton Passing, if you're not careful.

Pokemon That Stat Boost Alongside Your Own - A common anti-BP strategy; while you're farting about trying to find the recipient they're getting a +3 speed +3 attack mega on the prowl (or something similar, you know the drill).

Status - Burn ruins your physical pokemon and paralysis ruins everything pretty much - with the Prankster Prevalence I mentioned earlier these issues have only gotten more compounded.

Old Baton Pass Goodies:

Magic Coat - Most players can see Magic Bounce mons a mile away, but with Magic Coat (a BW2 tutor move) that is not the case. Can reflect Prankster moves (especially Taunt) as well as hazards like Sticky Web, status moves and non-damaging phazing. The only thing you need to be wary of is grass status moves as they won't affect grass pokemon and they can stall your PP out.

Having Pokemon With Godly Boosted Stats - That, if I'm not mistaken, is the Baton Passer's dream.

Combatting the Crappies:

Sticky Web - Get quickly to a Defog BPer that can speed boost (Mew, Scizor) or something that can nip Galvantula (or Smeargle) in the bud - for example Ambipom (LO Fake Out and U-Turn). Most players don't use Galvantula very sensibly (they always try to get Sticky Web out and treat the mon as expendable) so you can exploit this to your advantage. You can also use fast Taunt users too, but then Sticky Web may still surface later in the game if you can't KO it.

Prankster Prevalence - Magic Coat usually does the trick with its +4 priority, and has pretty good distribution due to BW2 move tutors.

Grass Immunity to Grass Moves - Spore is what you're mainly worried about here, so as long as you can outspeed the Spore user and pass to a Grass, Sap Sipper, Magic Guard or Lum Berry using recipient you can deal with the opposition.

Taunt - Magic Coat or a faster Taunt user, you can also use Mental Herb.

Phazing - Fairies block Dragon Tail as mentioned (no one cares about Circle Throw!) and Magic Coat can again be used to block non-damaging phaze moves. Ingrain or the Suction Cups ability can also be used to prevent phazing as long as it's not Topsy-Turvy.

Haze and Clear Smog - Really not very common (mainly Cofagrigus and Amoonguss respectively). If you have a nice speed boost and the opponent hasn't brought these mons out early try to take them out, otherwise try to deal with them sooner rather than later with an unboosted sweeper.

Trick and Switcheroo - These are pretty problematic. Lopunny allows you to ignore items with Klutz, whereas a Mew with Transform and a +252 Speed Nature can then become the equivalent of a Choice Scarf Ditto. If you have a speed boost and can outspeed the scarf user, you can still BP on the next turn anyway.

Pokemon That Stat Boost Alongside Your Own - Clear Smog (the enemy's weapon) can help you here, Drifblim being a notable and competent BPer and Clear Smog User. Either that or opt for the Mexican Stand-Off and see which of you or the opponent win the stat-boosting arms race.

Status - Lum berries in your recipients, Magic Coat on your passers. Magic Guard on your recipients also does the trick.

New or Improved Sexy Baton Pass Users:

scolipede.gif

Scolipede - Yeah Scolipede got Speed Boost, making Protect/SD/BP sets very nice. Personally, I'd only ever run it with Mental Herb to prevent Prankster Taunting on your BP turn (if they have a Prankster and it's out first turn for Heaven's sake don't use SD).

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Lopunny - Can now learn Cosmic Power, and is the only pokemon immune to choice locking due to Klutz. Has a plethora of support moves and not horrendous defenses, plus Magic Coat.

mega_absol_sprite_by_noscium-d6ixznz.png

Mega Absol - Though lacking in boosting moves itself outside of SD, with Magic Bounce Mega Absol can't be Taunted, Tricked, Phazed by Roar or Whirlwind or easily statused (only by moves that carry status as a secondary affect). Mega Absol stands out in that once it is close to dying, it can easily Baton Pass the boosts it was using to something else.

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Defog BP users - Scizor (mega or no), Mew and Drifblim plus more can both remove hazards and pass on the stat boosting goodness (Mew and Drifblim can also learn Magic Coat - wink wink nudge nudge).

Psychic pokemon anon - Often can learn Magic Coat because of the BW2 tutor, and can receive Weakness Policy boosts from rampant U-Turn, Knock Off and ghost move usage.

BP Support:

Really the only extra support I recommend is Dual Screens to get far more boosts in than you normally should be able to (opponents often have a feel for much damage their moves do under normal conditions but not under screens - this provides free turns). Deoxys-D is a great user for its bulk and combination of Taunt, Screens and Hazard/Taunt/Recovery. It should be noted that screens can also be defogged away, which is something you need to watch out for.

Healing Wish, or regular Wish, may also be a consideration - and as mentioned before Ambipom may be a useful tool for cautious players (can kill Focus Sash Galvantula's with Fake Out and U-Turn, can hit Cofagrigus with Technician Pursuit for a turn and then catch him in the switch out when you're mummied, can also BP).

The Recipients:

I'm not going to preach too much here, as selecting the recipients of your BP team is one of the joys of making a BP team. However what you should consider:

How Does The Recipient's Ability Set It Apart - Does it have Mold Breaker or Terravolt to break Sturdy and eliminate Thick Fat (Mega Venusaur) and Levitate? Would its ability grant free turns at speed - Serene Grace Air Slash Togekiss? Does its ability prevent status - Magic Guard? Could it ignore stat boosts in the opponent - Unaware?

What Is Your Recipient After - Tailor the boosts your team gives to your sweeper's stat deficiencies.

Can Your Sweeper Function On Its Own - Can your sweeper have some chance of fulfilling its role without the baton pass shenanigans?

Is Your Sweeper Inherently Resilient To Status or Phazing - Ground and Electric typing typically wards off paralysis, Fire makes you un-burnable, Steel and Poison typing prevents toxic, Fairy typing prevents Dragon Tail, Grass typing prevents spore and other grass status moves. Pokemon like Mega Venusaur can use Ingrain to create recovery and prevent phazing, whilst at the same time being resilient to status.

What Items Are You Going To Use - Lum Berries buy you that one time free pass, particularly useful against Prankster users. Also, who cares if they're Knocked Off?

What Coverage Do You Have? What Are Your Moves' Accuracies - Are They Dependable? Can You Be Walled - Do You Need To Produce More Stat Boosts On The Recipient? Do You Need or Want Recovery? Are You Hazard Weak? Can You Deal With A Sub? - These are all questions you need to have part way answered in making a BP team.

In Conclusion:

I hope this has at least been useful to someone. What role if any do you see BP playing in the current meta? Is it still relevant as a strategy? Have I made any glaring omission to the current BP meta (I will update if I've missed out any stinkers)?

Discuss, and tell me below if my wording or grammar is spotty is places (it's late now) and I will correct it. Enjoy.
 
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Coulda sworn somebody already did a thread on this, but I couldn't find one, so I'll respond.

Whenever I see a team try to baton pass, I usually start laughing and blow that team to shreds. The ones I'm talking about are the ones that overplay their team and give me plenty of opportunities to beat them, so I'd say any hope Baton Pass has of being viable is for people to learn to mix it with other sets for versatile passers.

Example 1: A scolipede shouldn't just stick around stalling until it has +2 atk and +4 spe to pass, passing just 2 speed boosts is more than enough to make a huge difference if you also lay down some spikes or deal some damage for the incoming poke. A +2 spe mega heracross is an absolute terror (unless you have a Talonflame), and really isn't that different from a +6 spe one.

Example 2: Those teams that make this huge chain of passes? They suck. Passing 1 acid armor, 1 tail glow, and 2 speed boosts is pretty stupid if your opponent already has SR on the field and is causing considerable damage to every poke you have? Instead, focus on light, short term/limited cost passes like passing a calm mind or two to a gengar so they can go on and sweep. Anything is better than betting 6 or 7 turns of set up on 3 pokemon not being KO'd by a lucky crit or a surprise mix set or something like that.

Basically, Baton Pass can be used to fill in the holes in some pokemon. If its really strong, hand it some speed and let it sweep (Tyrantrum, MHeracross, MGarchomp, Kyurem-B, Haxorus, Darmanitan, and a lot of others love Baton Pass), if its already fast, you can give it a little umph (Deoxys-S, Alakazam, Jolteon, Talonflame, and Greninja can all wreck teams with a nasty plot/sword dance boost). People need to learn to recognize the balance between how much of a boost you need to win, and how much you'll be able to afford. If you guess wrong, you'll lose almost every time.
 
Another benefit to slower, defense boosting BP teams is that crits only do 1.5x damage now, which means that if you get caught without a substitute, you have a much better chance of surviving. And it matters more to BP teams because, for anyone who doesn't know, crits bypass all those defense boosts you got off, and "accidentally" KO'ing one pokemon in the middle of a BP chain is a much bigger momentum killer than normal.
 
BP is as relevant as it ever was, i.e. any competent team that's designed to neuter stat uppers in general will beat it and then completely maul it since 5/6 of your team is useless offensively.
A good point, but what do a lot of the megas need outside of a speed or defense boost (if that)? They usually need opposing status users to be wiped out, but that's it and that's not a huge ask. Just one good BPer can set your mega up.

Coulda sworn somebody already did a thread on this, but I couldn't find one, so I'll respond.
Yeah I thought so too, but apparently not! I agree entirely with all your points, passing modest boosts is better than passing no boosts at all and it's often all you need in the first place.

Another benefit to slower, defense boosting BP teams is that crits only do 1.5x damage now, which means that if you get caught without a substitute, you have a much better chance of surviving. And it matters more to BP teams because, for anyone who doesn't know, crits bypass all those defense boosts you got off, and "accidentally" KO'ing one pokemon in the middle of a BP chain is a much bigger momentum killer than normal.
Great point that I forgot, added to the OP.
 
Also, a couple weeks ago, a curse Trevenant screwed my baton pass team quite hard. Afaik there is no way to block a ghost-curse besides outspeeding and killing or taunting the user. Magic Bounce and Substitute do nothing to it, and the effect goes through baton pass to your teammates.

Its not a common threat but it's so hard to deal with, I felt it was worth mentioning.
 
If we're just talking about one Baton Passer, that can still be extremely useful on things that don't have their own boosts or can't afford the time to use them before getting KO'd. Your analysis seems to be heavily built around BP teams, which I take to mean BP chains, which are still bad. Sorry if I misunderstood the technique we were discussing.
 
Example 2: Those teams that make this huge chain of passes? They suck. Passing 1 acid armor, 1 tail glow, and 2 speed boosts is pretty stupid if your opponent already has SR on the field and is causing considerable damage to every poke you have? Instead, focus on light, short term/limited cost passes like passing a calm mind or two to a gengar so they can go on and sweep. Anything is better than betting 6 or 7 turns of set up on 3 pokemon not being KO'd by a lucky crit or a surprise mix set or something like that.

This is what made nasty plot celebi so threatening last gen.
 
With this move although it is sometimes hard to stop.. Setting it up can prove perilous in the way that you can pretty much either dent the baton passer or the thing that is getting set up.

A potential way of countering it for me has been to switch in a powerful move and to simply spam it until the set up sweeper has been realized to hopefully weaken it enough to then take it down with a priority move on the next attack. Pretty much this way I have wasted their precious moves at the expense of them to then lose their strongest Pokemon.

Especially useful if you have a Pokemon who can't be put to sleep as well as they can keep the pressure on by dealing damage to either hurt the BP user between protects or hurt the switch
 
No mention of Mega Absol? Tsk. Magic Bounce is clutch on BP teams. Think Espeon, but actually dangerous before a boost. Its fast, offensively dangerous, immune to Taunt and other nasty effects, and can pass Swords Dances on forced switches or sweep by itself if needed.

But yeah, as Kairyu said, quick passing is a lot better than a slow build up that either dies quickly or steamrolls. Scolipede is amazing at this, being able to come in, Swords Dance, smash something in the face, and pass off to something threatening once it gets into a bad situation.

Also, look af some of the new threats we got this generation and see how well they enjoy free boosts. You want to pass Manaphy a speed boost to go with its Tail Glow, sending Aegislash a Calm Mind as you pivot to it can only end well, and god help you if your opponent gets their Scolipede to toss some boosts at a Mega Garchomp.
 
Baton Pass doesn't have to be used in giant chains, you know. It can be used on offensive Pokemon to pass on a single Swords Dance or other boost to your switch, in case something comes and counters/checks you.

Few Pokemon can do that though... Mega Absol, Mega Mawile, Togekiss, Scizor and some Eeveelutions are about the only ones that have both Baton Pass, a good boosting move, offensive presence, and any relevance in OU. In lower tiers there's Mienshao, but then that's about it.
 
I've used Scolipede and Vaporeon with BP and it's been pretty helpful so far.

Scolipede basically guarantees the option to pass at least one speed boost, and with a reasonable attack stat + SD it also has passable offensive presence (useful if you're expecting a Taunt). Scolipede's weakness to fire and resistance to grass provide a few safe opportunities to BP over for Vaporeon to take the hit, then set up a speedy sub to avoid getting statused. From there you can BP over to whatever you want to use the boosts. Most of the time I don't end up going down this chain, but it's nice to have the option and puts me in a very favorable position once I get it out.

The main stop I run into with this combo is Heatran with Roar. That thing is such a pain.
 
I used to Venomoth with sleep powder, quiver dance and baton pass back on my first team in fifth gen UU that passed to an Azelf who with an excellent speed tier and SpAtk as well as coverage really appreciated the boost. (It was the only intelligent part of this team).

Baton Pass is a very advanced strategy, but it does not mesh well with the risk, reward elements of the advanced competitive meta. Baton Pass has some major risks that outweigh the rewards because the time it takes to boost can all come to naught if your roared out, taunted or even set-up upon and because of these major risks I don't feel that baton pass is a viable strategy (I could be convinced on Baton Pass Scolipede though) for advanced players who are trying to win consistently because there are just too many possible counters on an opponent's team for the risk to be worth the reward.

Also this is a really well organized OP (good job Jojo) but you should include the buff to sound moves with them going thru subs (especially M-Gardevior's hyper voice) as another detriment to these baton pass chain teams or even baton pass in general because it means that if the passer subs he is not actually guaranteed time to set-up.
 
No mention of Mega Absol? Tsk. Magic Bounce is clutch on BP teams. Think Espeon, but actually dangerous before a boost. Its fast, offensively dangerous, immune to Taunt and other nasty effects, and can pass Swords Dances on forced switches or sweep by itself if needed.

But yeah, as Kairyu said, quick passing is a lot better than a slow build up that either dies quickly or steamrolls. Scolipede is amazing at this, being able to come in, Swords Dance, smash something in the face, and pass off to something threatening once it gets into a bad situation.

Also, look af some of the new threats we got this generation and see how well they enjoy free boosts. You want to pass Manaphy a speed boost to go with its Tail Glow, sending Aegislash a Calm Mind as you pivot to it can only end well, and god help you if your opponent gets their Scolipede to toss some boosts at a Mega Garchomp.

The one big problem with MAbsol is that it has to MEvo first before it can Magic Bounce, so you need to find a turn to set her up before you can really play her as a Taunt blocker. The obvious solution to that is leading with her, but that's also tough since she's frail, so common leads can often OHKO her. For example, even without a +Att Download boost, Scarf Genesect has a 99.83% chance to OHKO with U-Turn.

Overall, I would say Espeon is still the premier Magic Bouncer for BP teams, though note that she also got nerfed this gen due to the Knock Off buff, which is a common attack on utility Pokes.
 
The one big problem with MAbsol is that it has to MEvo first before it can Magic Bounce, so you need to find a turn to set her up before you can really play her as a Taunt blocker. The obvious solution to that is leading with her, but that's also tough since she's frail, so common leads can often OHKO her. For example, even without a +Att Download boost, Scarf Genesect has a 99.83% chance to OHKO with U-Turn.

Overall, I would say Espeon is still the premier Magic Bouncer for BP teams, though note that she also got nerfed this gen due to the Knock Off buff, which is a common attack on utility Pokes.
Espeon ain't exactly fat either, mind you. Even with bulk investment, it still gets 2HKOed by a ton of stuff, plus can't hit back at all anymore.

MAbsol is a near perfect quick passer, but as far as dedicated BP chains go I would opt for Espeon for the reliable Magic Bounce, assuming I would opt to BP chain at all, which I promise you won't happen lol.
 
Drifblim @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
IVs: 29 Speed
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Stockpile
- Baton Pass
- Magic Coat / Shadow Ball
It is slower than any Pokemon at base 80 Speed. It can take a SE hit from a faster mon, Substitute or Stockpile (usually sub), then Pass off with the unburden boost.
 
Drifblim @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
IVs: 29 Speed
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Stockpile
- Baton Pass
- Magic Coat / Shadow Ball
It is slower than any Pokemon at base 80 Speed. It can take a SE hit from a faster mon, Substitute or Stockpile (usually sub), then Pass off with the unburden boost.

Yes, but can it take two super-effective hits? Its slow speed may make that a necessity.
 
Yes, but can it take two super-effective hits? Its slow speed may make that a necessity.
Unburden almost guarantees that it will only take one hit, unless the opposing Pokemon is Scarfed or has a priority move, which it shouldn't take too hard. Drifblim is weak to Shadow Sneak and Ice Shard, unfortunately.
It's a real shame that Unburden boosts don't get passed, but I can see this thing being pretty good against Fighting-types, most of which can't hit it with their main stab and have to rely on a weaker coverage move to hit it super-effectively. However, its bulk is pretty mediocre. I would invest in Defense and Special Defense instead of HP.

What's with the 29 Speed EVs?
 
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The trick is not to use a Baton Passer that sucks in and of itself and can be a threat with its own boosts. Mew can boost almost any combination of stats and has one of the largest movepools in the game with the balanced stats to abuse them. I'm experimenting with Gorebyss and Mega Heracross. Gorebyss has much better defense than most people are aware of (55/105/75) so when you invest in the bulk and have access to both Barrier and Scald it makes a difference. White Herb with Shell Smash gives you plenty of offensive juice for even an uninvested 114 SpA stat when you have Scald and Ice Beam. The type synergy works too because Heracross certainly doesn't mind Grass or Electric attacks very much aimed at Gorebyss and he doesn't have to fear Fire moves aimed at Gorebyss. And let me tell you, if the opponent doesn't have Talonflame or Mega Pinsir left, it is good game right there, you can't stop Shell Smash Mega Heracross.
 
Unburden almost guarantees that it will only take one hit, unless the opposing Pokemon is Scarfed or has a priority move, which it shouldn't take too hard. Drifblim is weak to Shadow Sneak and Ice Shard, unfortunately.
It's a real shame that Unburden boosts don't get passed, but I can see this thing being pretty good against Fighting-types, most of which can't hit it with their main stab and have to rely on a weaker coverage move to hit it super-effectively. However, its bulk is pretty mediocre. I would invest in Defense and Special Defense instead of HP.

What's with the 29 Speed IVs?
The 29 Speed IVs let it go after all Base 80 Mons, meaning it can set up a Substitute after taking a hit, thus activating Weakness Policy. It can then outspeed and pass WP Boost + 101+ HP Sub to whomever it wishes.
 
For me, BP is most deadly on sashed Scolipede. Swords Dance and speed boost turn 1, protect and speed boost turn 2, bp turn 3.

Only problem is it's vulnerability to priority, but with the right EVs it can tank enough to pass off +2 speed/attack onto stuff like Tyranitar or even Azumarill.

Definitely relevant in this gen.
 
What Kairyu said was pretty much how to use BP. Pass small boosts that actually'll make a difference, not a
+6 Defense to your fucking Dragonite, because you just "feel like it". That is why dedicated BP almost always fail.
 
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