Battle Maison Discussion & Records

[VaporeonIce]

Thank you, VaporeonIce :)
That's a great idea for Flare Blitz Arcanines or Rapidash for example, yes. But Wish let you the choice to sweep or Protect. So Wish + (Protect + Seismic) is a good thing for me because Taunt users, when you know who they are (you don't have any great special attacker with Taunt), I can easily beat them with Clefable and Skarm. And for Flare Blitz, they can beat themselves with the damage of the recoil against Wish + Protect spam. But I don't forget your idea which is great: maybe replace Protect by Counter. I'll think about it, just studying when I REALLY need Protect with Eviolite Chansey.
And Breloom 2 and 3 can appear with the Chefs cuz they can have 2 and 3 in Water, Grass or Fire Pokes.

With Wish + Counter, you can only heal once every two turns. With Soft Boiled + Counter, you can heal every turn while they die to Toxic (which can help if you're paralyzed against, say, Thundurus). I don't think I understand your point about Flare Blitz...Soft Boiled makes you heal (and makes them hit themselves) every turn, which Wish + Protect only allows them to hit themselves with recoil every other turn.

As far as everyone on this thread knows (unless I missed something), Chefs run the following after battle #40:

Chef Roux runs a sun team. This includes various Fire and Grass Pokemon, and can run all four sets on some of those Pokemon, but only includes those that have Sunny Day or an ability that benefits from sun (e.g. Chlorophyll). He can't have Breloom.

Chef Andrei runs a Hail team (or, perhaps more accurately, a Blizzard team), which includes every non-legendary Pokemon that has Blizzard (and a random Meganium 2, probably because of some programming error, because it knows Petal Blizzard). This includes random Water- and Ice-types, as well as Abomasnow and that random Meganium set, and isn't exclusively set 4. He also doesn't run Breloom.

I have never seen any other Chef after battle #40 run any set besides set 4, and others who have researched Battle Maison trainers on this thread have found the same thing. None of them should have any Breloom sets besides set 4.

EDIT: Toootally ninja'd by StarKO.

 

[Uphaze]

StarKO yes, it takes CENTURIES lol But with Flamethrower maybe just ages xD

And are you SURE for the Chefs? Because I studied the whole teams I battled and I thought that they could have any of the sets. Are you sure of only set 4? If it's the case, I take a Rocky Helmet or just a Lum Berry like VaporeonIce said for the Metagross or Reuniclus Trick or for Ice Hax :)

 

[Uphaze]

Oh It's okay thank you so much for the Chefs I'll delete the Safety Goggles and study the Counter Soft question :) Thank you so much, guys, it's a pleasure ^^

 

[brakerider]

Actually I made a change to my team to deal with Volcarona and it seems to work nicely: I replaced Gengar with Speed Boost Sharpedo!
I managed to make it to just over 210 wins after changing to Sharpedo before losing to a bad match-up and some unlucky rotations. May try again later. I know that this set is way better than what I had before and I'm sure I can go further.

I really like that choice! I have overlooked this one since this gen came along. Still a good streak though. Hope to see another high streak.

Also, confusion and Volcarona will always be massively annoying in the Maison.

Fixed

Volcarona is a bastard who should go die.

Most accurate description I have seen. 5 stars

I'll try Protect - Wish - Flamethrower - Moonblast Clefable. The Toxic, I can do it with Chansey or Skarm.
If it's Volcarona or Calm Mind sweepers, I can Toxic them with Chansey.
If it's DD or SD sweepers, I can Moonblast or Flamethrower them or tank them with Wish + Protect with Clefable.
If not, I can Toxic them with Skarm.

For the OHKO sweepers (Walrein and others), I just have to tank them with Sturdy Skarm :)
Skarm is Careful Max Sp. Def because of Sheer Cold Vanilluxe with Blizzard and the Sheer Cold Articuno with Ice Beam.
Skarm has Safety Goggles because of Breloom 2 or 3 with Spore.

Uphaze.

I like the idea of giving flamethrower over toxic to clefable. Rest of the team looks solid. Post a video if you have any, would be interested to see how it plays.
There are a lot of nice and good players here, I just happened to be lurking around today.

 

[Uphaze]

I think that VaporeonIce has a great idea. I'll study it tomorrow :) And thanks for StarKO to and him for the Chefs.
I post videos but I began with Gliscor - Quagsire - Chansey. You can follow me in: https://www.facebook.com/uphazetrainer
I took Clefable - Chansey - Skarm from the 131th to the 374th.
I post one video per day. Each video contains 10 battles. And the 26th April, the 4th video will be posted.
The 38th will be posted the 30th May so I have 1 month and 4 days to have 370 straight wins again to continue my videos lol

 

[Uphaze]

VaporeonIce, I just need to Protect against Focus Blast sweepers like Tornadus or others... If I not protect, they can less my Special Defense and hax me with a Focus Blast crit later :/
I need Protect too against Blizzard Freeze hax :/
So do you against think that Soft + Counter can be better than Wish + Protect?
I just have to study the question to be convinced. It's not easy to choose that :/

 

[brakerider]

Also, the Chefs actually only use set 4 Pokemon, except for Roux who uses a Sunny Day team and Andrei who uses a Hail team. So indeed you will never see Breloom 2 or 3 after battle 40.

As far as everyone on this thread knows (unless I missed something), Chefs run the following after battle #40

How did you guys get so knowledgeable about the trainers? I notice patterns during streaks, but nothing close to this kind of information

Here's a video-
Battle 501: 3NLG-WWWW-WWW7-WQZA

 

[Hulavuta]

Not really a big deal compared to everyone else but I finally got 50 wins in the Super Doubles Maison, so I got the trophy :D

The team I used was Mega Gardevoir / Hitmontop / Landorus-T / Zapdos.

How did you guys get so knowledgeable about the trainers? I notice patterns during streaks, but nothing close to this kind of information

I believe the list of all possible trainers and their Pokemon has been discovered already. I'm not sure where to find it though D:

 

[StarKO]

While I was trying to get my 658 streak I went through at least 1000 battles, and for every one I recorded the trainer and what sets came up just to make sure there was nothing inaccurate in the post by R Inanimate here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-maison-discussion-records.3492706/page-21#post-4990654

And yeah, the only things to add to that post is that Chefs Carlos and Nicoise definitely only use set 4, Hikers only use set 4, and the Roller Skaters only seem to use sets 3 and 4.

 

[VaporeonIce]

VaporeonIce, I just need to Protect against Focus Blast sweepers like Tornadus or others... If I not protect, they can less my Special Defense and hax me with a Focus Blast crit later :/
I need Protect too against Blizzard Freeze hax :/
So do you against think that Soft + Counter can be better than Wish + Protect?
I just have to study the question to be convinced. It's not easy to choose that :/

In my experience from using it in Rotations, the Special Defense drops can be annoying, but really aren't that threatening, because Chansey has so much special bulk that it just doesn't care. The strongest Focus Blasts come from Choice Specs Alakazam and Choice Specs Thundurus, but using they got locked into the move, making them easy targets for Clefable, since it resists Focus Blast. Emboar (lol) and Life Orb Tornadus have the next strongest Focus Blasts (I believe), and they can hardly even manage to take off a third of Chansey's health. Against these threats, Chansey can seriously just come in and keep using Soft Boiled every turn until they run out of Focus Blasts. We can walk through it like this: Emboar uses Focus Blast on turn 1 and gets a crit and a SpDef drop:

252 SpA Emboar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 168-198 (47 - 55.4%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

If you use Soft Boiled that turn, Chansey pretty much back at full health. We'll say that Chansey gets back to full health, and that the attack didn't crit (because it doesn't matter much either way), so the odds of this happening so far are 70% (Focus Blast's hit rate) x 10% (FB's SpDef drop rate) = 7%.

The next turn, Emboar gets a crit.

252 SpA Emboar Focus Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 252-296 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chansey goes down to 17.1% - 29.5%, but heals with Soft Boiled, meaning she's at 67.1%-79.5%. The total odds so far are 7% x 70% (FB's hit rate) x 6.25% = 0.31%.

A non-crit does:

252 SpA Emboar Focus Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (47 - 55.4%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

...so it won't KO, and you can just heal it off. The odds of it getting another crit on the next attack would bring your total odds to .031% x 70% x 6.25% = .0013%. Basically, it will never happen...but if you don't want to risk it, you can just switch to Clefable and switch back to Chansey to restore her SpDef. Focus Blast only has 5 PP; it's really easy to stall it out.

In theory, Blizzard freezes are threatening. In practice, Chansey just doesn't care. She can usually just sit there stalling out the Blizzards while frozen. If you want to be safe, just spam Soft Boiled until the opponent is out of Blizzards; even with Hail damage, Glaceon can only manage a 5HKO with Blizzard unless one of them is a crit (in which case, it gets a 4HKO), meaning you're pretty much 100% safe if you manage to escape one Blizzard without getting frozen. But even if you do get frozen, just keep trying to use Soft Boiled until you thaw out. It pretty much always works, especially because Glaceon only has the laughably weak Signal Beam for coverage.

tl;dr: Chansey is so bulky she doesn't even care about the things you're worried about, and if by some freak accident something bad DOES happen, just switch her out and switch her back in again.

 

[Uphaze]

Hm. Maybe you're right. I used Stealth Rock + Soft until the 70th and Protect + Soft until the 360th for PP stall Focus Blast and Blizzard users. But now, considering that Chefs only have Breloom 4 and that Skarm is Careful 252 HP 252 Sp.Def, I can switch to him in case of freeze hax (he has a Lum Berry anyway and a Blizzard from a Modest 252SpA Vanilluxe just put him around 50%), and switch to Clefable in case of Focus Blast.

And the person who posted the records sent me an inbox like I couldn't use a Wish Chansey. So I'll go back to Soft and think more and more to Counter. Counter > Stealth Rock, it's quite sure. And for Protect I think you're right.

Wish is so important to Clefable because she's not so bulky. So if Clef did a Wish just before the opponent is KO with Poison, she can have the choice to attack, poison or protect. But Chansey don't have to do those choice because she's so bulky so she doesn't care about 80 HP (and...... for less 80 HP to him.... LOL).

So just explain me in which cases do you think it's necessary to use Counter and I'll maybe put that on Chansey thanking you :)

Don't you think that Sub could be a great idea too?

 

[Eppie]

Uphaze has been removed from the records list for using a hacked Pokémon.

It is irrelevant in how many of the 373 battles Uphaze actually used the Wish Chansey, and I assume the Clefable and Skarmory were also ''created'' using a program like Pokégen. Uphaze has used a Pokémon to achieve a streak that no one has legal access to (at least not perfect), which gives him an advantage over fellow Maison players, which I consider cheating. Unless someone can link me to a trade thread or website like Pokécheck, which contains proof of a legal Bold Wish Chansey with flawless IV's, I will re-add Uphaze to the records list.

I am aware of the fact that there is no rule stating that Pokégenned Pokémon are not allowed. ''Why isn't there?'' Because I don't expect people to actually do so. Peterko, a former Smogon member who used to run this thread for all previous Pokémon generations said the following about this manner and I'd like to quote that:

2. Cheating is bad, because it´s a comparative advantage one normally wouldn´t have.

For example I had to wait until the Wi-Fi event in HGSS to have a shot at a perfect Latios/Latias, which I still had to RNG. Before that, I only had a Hasty 30/23/10/30/30/27 Latios but I still got to 459 in the DP Tower with it. I also had a Timid 29/2/29/29/31/31 Latias from an insane emerald reset (frame 762330, which is like a 4 hour wait for just 1 reset) that I used to get my 2363 Plat Tower streak with.

Now I didn´t buy both versions so I only have Tornadus (its soft reset was a pain because I wasn´t prepared enough before going to the house, it took about two days).
I don´t have Thundurus nor Landorus, because I´m kind of paranoid to trade for them. But whatever, I use what I have access to.

The point still stands that this topic is mainly for those competitive players that want to measure themselves with others, not "who can cheat the best".

3. I think there was a general consensus last time this was brought up, that this topic is built on a certain level of trust, which means people should be honest about their streaks as:
a) there is almost no way to figure out a cheat from a pro (unless it´s as blatant as "heat wave thundurus") and
b) cheating records is no accomplishment at all, so by my logic it would be a waste of time to cheat a record and post it in here (unless it´s a troll).

The preventive mechanism we use is "you have to post proof (pic, video, video #)" and "describe the strategy behind your team" so that the particular streaks are believable to an extent...

...but there´s a thin line I don´t want to cross and that is to openly allow "legal hacks", because the ability to create your pokémon is just a step from using save states of streaks or whatever else.

I know that´s kind of hypocritical, but the rule still stands:

If you cheat, I have all the right to not post your streak, or post it but later take it down when I decide so (or if there´s people who complain).

Don't cheat, if you feel like you have to, make sure you don't get caught.

 

[Aircraft Cemetery]

Speaking of which... if Bold 6x31 IV Wish Chansey isn't legally obtainable, then 1) why did the Poketransporter filter fail to identify the hack when he transferred it over to his XY game and 2) why is said Chansey even allowed by Smogon in competitive play?


Also, I'm currently on a 369 streak in Super Singles, I'll post here once the streak is over.

 

[Uphaze]

Thank you so much for banning me :) I wasted hundreds of hours in my life to stay in the darkness, just because I did only 14 battles with my Wish Chansey.
My Chansey is legit. Perfectly legit. Like Aircraft Cemetery said. I can use this Chansey in OFFICIAL Tournaments. And what about the 31 IV Bold Suicunes? Do you seriously think that they was caught in wild? Okay you can't prove that they were created, but you can't also prove that my Wish Chansey has been created, because it can be obtained by event, and Pokecheck is not recognized as an OFFICIAL legit source. It's unjust and disgraceful.

Thank you so much Aircraft for defending me, I hope you'll have many straight wins in the Battle Maison, and I hope that other players will defend me because I'm just disgusted.

 

[Stellar]

While Smogon allows Wish Chansey in simulator play because in theory it was possible to attain one, that possibility is so improbable that arguments over its use in competitive play have come up time and time again. It's "okay" to use in simulator play because every has equal access to said Chansey without cheating. This isn't the case in cartridge play: everyone assumes a Chansey is hacked if it has perfect IVs/nature and Wish. It may be that no one can prove that the Chansey is hacked, but rest assured that every time you win, that win comes with an asterisk denoting that you likely used a hacked Pokemon (hacked here meaning created with a .pkmn or .sav editing program).

I think Eppie should do one of two things: 1) include you on the list with an asterisk denoting that you used a Pokemon that is not readily available to everyone competing in this thread. Wish Chansey is an event that happened nine years ago. If they wanted, a person could not obtain a legitimate Wish Chansey today. You used the example of 31 IV Bold Suicune in your post. Those can be obtained legitimately by everyone by purchasing a copy of HGSS and RNGing the Suicune encounter on Cerulean Cape. 2) Start a new category for users using Pokemon that are no longer available to everyone. This includes Pokemon like Aura Sphere Raikou and ESpeed Entei, as well as Pokemon like Wish Chansey/Wish Exeggutor/Wish Lickitung/etc.

That being said, I respect Eppie's decision if he decides to maintain your removal from the list--there is a certain level of trust that must exist between the users of this thread. Using a Pokemon that's existence is so improbable not only disrupts the level playing field, but violates that trust. If you wish to continue using Wish Chansey (ha, unintentional pun), I think you should be free to do so, just realize that every achievement you attain will be blemished by that asterisk in the minds of others. While they cannot prove you used a "hacked" Pokemon, they will assume you did so.

 

[Eppie]

For starters, there's a thing called RNG. The Suicunes (and many other Pokémon) found in the records list are most likely legal.
I say most likely because honestly, I can't tell who uses Pokégen altered Pokémon and who doesn't apart from myself and a few people I've gotten to know during my time on Smogon and the Battle Tower/Subway/Maison threads.

My point is you used a hacked Pokémon with a moveset that no other person can use effectively besides simply hacking it. This means you have an advantage over other Maison players, which is cheating. I know you, or someone else hacked that Chansey, because you didn't lie about it (which is a good thing, honestly). There are probably others who didn't RNG and/or breed the Pokémon they used for their records, but I have no way of knowing.

Your Chansey was so obviously hacked that I have no other option then removing your record from the records list. I don't do this because I don't like you, which is the feeling you are starting to get (I never heard of you since a few days ago, so how can I not like you?). I do this for the bigger picture. If I allow you, I will have to allow others who used hacked Pokémon.

Also, you were never ''banned'' from this thread. The only thing being banned from this thread is your current Singles record, because it used a hacked Pokémon. From what I've read you are going to give it another shot with Soft-Boiled > Wish, adviced by experienced Maison players. And trust me, when you do make a #10 record with that team, you will be added.

I simply can't add you to the list based on you saying ''I didn't know the Chansey was hacked''. I believe you if you say so, but so will all others when they get caught using hacked Pokémon.

 

[Uphaze]

Okay so I respect your decision. I can't do anything anyway... But I really need to find an agreement with you for the future because I really love Smogon, the users, and I really want to be recognized, help you to beat some records and be in a good relationship with everyone in this forum. So if I:
1) Try again to have 373 straight wins.
2) Post EVERY of my battles in YouTube (you can follow me in my Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/uphazetrainer).
3) NEVER use and remove those Wish Chansey (you'll be able to see that I never use it in my battles because of the YouTube posts).
Will you accept to put my team in the records?

 

[StarKO]

Being a mathematician, when it comes to this kind of thing I take the view that "if it can exist, it does exist". I personally don't have a problem with the Chansey used by Uphaze because theoretically it can exist on a XY cartridge without hacks (whether it was hacked or not).

That being said, it's not up to me and I respect Eppie's decision. Uphaze, I can perfectly understand you being upset, but ultimately you have to respect the topic creator's decision. Also, wouldn't you rather get higher on the leaderboard anyway? :P You were planning on beating that streak regardless. I'm sure you can get a higher streak using Softboiled instead.

 

[Stellar]

I'm less concerned with the legitimacy argument and more concerned with creating a level playing field for the leaderboard.

 

[Uphaze]

I agree, StarKO and Stellar. Until my 350th battle (and not 360th: I was wrong, I verified my videos because I recorded all my battles with the Capture Card), I used a Soft Chansey. It's the last 24 battles a friend gave me a Wish Chansey and I used it.
So what I'll do right now is start from zero, try to beat my own record with the Soft Chansey, and remove the Wish Chansey. Is everyone agree with that ? Will I be able to be in the records if I do this?
I really want to be in the records for my own work: I'm not a hacker ._.

 

[Aircraft Cemetery]

Honestly, I don't have a problem with him being added to the leaderboard. If this very website allows a pokemon in competitive battle that is pretty much known to not exist in the whole world, it should also be allowed to use such pokemon for this competition here.

Then again, I'm not the one to decide and I guess either decision is legit.

EDIT: 400 now, but going to take a break.

 

[VaporeonIce]

Honestly, I don't have a problem with him being added to the leaderboard. If this very website allows a pokemon in competitive battle that is pretty much known to not exist in the whole world, it should also be allowed to use such pokemon for this competition here.

The point is that anyone can use Wish Chansey on Pokemon Showdown, creating a level playing field. In the cartridge games, no one can get Wish Chansey with perfect IVs and nature, not only because it came from an event, but because the event was so long ago (it was an in-person event for about three weeks in 2004) that pretty much no one was using RNG abuse and cloning the results ad infinitum. I'd be surprised if a 5/6 IV Wish Chansey even exists, because it shouldn't have been possible to RNG that event. When we say a 5/6 IV Bold Wish Chansey is unlikely, we don't mean "getting a 6IV Bold Suicune without RNG" unlikely; we mean much less likely than that, because anyone can soft reset for Suicunes as much as they want. We mean "it is nearly impossible that this Pokemon actually exists, anywhere."

 

[StarKO]

Aircraft coming for #1 spot! Can you give us a clue about what team you're using? :D

 

[Uphaze]

Can anyone just tell me if I can start again with a Soft Chansey without be banned from the records and with which conditions ? :$

 

[Aircraft Cemetery]

Nothing special really, considering the old Mega + Dragon type + water type teams are apparently the standard of non-Entruantment teams. Mine is Scizor, Garchomp, Azumarill. I'll post the exact sets and my reasoning behind them when the streak is over.


This run is actually only my 2nd or 3rd serious attempt. My last one died to the dreaded Brightpowder Walrein which hit 3/4 Sheer Colds against me and I missed the Superpower...