Battle Spot - Simple Questions and Answers

Demantoid

APMS Founder
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The dumbfuck kid that just beat me was running one of my old, abandoned sets and reminded me of it (He won thanks to a double miss on my rock slide + double miss on Icy Wind; this kid was spamming Grass Knot Mega Gardevoir against my Rocky Helmet Cress; GK makes contact and has trash power on cress. How this guy ever got above 1500...).

Anyway, key point: how much physical bulk does Mega Gardevoir generally run? Modest / Timid sets, not TR ones.
Modest @ 100 HP / 252 Def is just barely enough to survive Jolly Return from Mega Kang, and I'm assuming most people don't invest that heavily?
And I thought Char-Y's physical bulk was cringeworthy lol.

edit: Assuming Doubles for everything above.
I don't think non-tr Gardevoir tend to invest as much in bulk. I ran 4/44 physical bulk on one of mine to survive -1 Adamant Kangaskhan Return. I could also see training for -1 Double Edge. Almost every Gardevoir spread I've seen is for semi-TR.
 
What are your highest ratings? I am happy to say i just peaked at 1817 singles with the same team i use for a long time (avalugg, mega ampharos, reuniclus, aegislash, hippowdon, clefable). After i participated in the tournament i became a lot better at predicting stuff, if i lead with ampharos and my opponent with a water pokemon and has a ground pokemon in the back, i always go for dragon pulse instead of thunderbolt. This sounds very easy but it gives me a lot of wins. Experience and doing lots of battles helps too i guess.
 
What are your highest ratings? I am happy to say i just peaked at 1817 singles with the same team i use for a long time (avalugg, mega ampharos, reuniclus, aegislash, hippowdon, clefable). After i participated in the tournament i became a lot better at predicting stuff, if i lead with ampharos and my opponent with a water pokemon and has a ground pokemon in the back, i always go for dragon pulse instead of thunderbolt. This sounds very easy but it gives me a lot of wins. Experience and doing lots of battles helps too i guess.
...1665. peak rating, ever. lol
It would of been higher, but Season 14 ended on me and I won 10 matches straight the day after. I was disappointed.
1700+ is a pipe dream for me, 1800 is incomprehensible.
 
I'm just getting into this tier from smogon OU, and I have a few questions about the VR.

Suicune in A+? Crocune is generally better vs. more opps I thought, so it would be better in OU than here. Elecs are also more popular here, so what's with the very high tiering?

What's up with Reflect Rocky Helmet Serperior, and why is it listed before the offensive set on the smogdex? It takes up helmet, really lowers your offensive capabilities, and isn't really bulky enough from my experience anyway.

Zapdos doesn't get to Defog anymore and has competition with Thundurus, how is it still A? Especially since a bulky thund set is listed, it's got even more competition from thund in an area it doesn't in OU. Is a bulky electric that more viable? I know megamence is a thing, but there are already a good amount of ways to beat it (AFAIK megamence is the main reason cress and p2 are so good, and they just kind of hitchhiked their way up to A due to walling potential + ice beam + twave), and I'm p sure band tflame is a 2HKO with blitz.

M-Luke in A-? It was unanimously banned just like mence in OU, but unlike mence, I don't see what's keeping it out of S. Strong mixed attacker, a special attacker with priority, incredibly strong CC, blatantly hard-checks kang (and if you pull off a CC in normal form and get sucker to get you +2 it's generally GG), surprisingly bulky with its combination of >110 speed and extremely high offenses. Outspeeds opposing priority, can set up on both sides of the spectrum. I'm sure there's a legitimate reason, but I'm just not seeing it.

Latios in B+. Is this exclusively due to M-Gar and the irrelevancy of Defog?

Thundy-T in B+. What does it have over Thundurus bar better choiced sets?

Terrakion in B+? beats kang, thund, tflame, mence even, band SE hits washtom hard so it's not walled by that, doesn't roll over to any attack, as much item diversity as Garchomp. Band terrak is like Chomp instead it's harder to take advantage of a locked-in edge, only one of his stabs have immunities rather than both, so less counterplay, etc.

Reasoning for Heattom being so high?

Chandelure in B. I'm assuming scarf shadow ball to let it hit mgar? Not sure what made it rise so much aside from that.

Reasoning for Entei being so high? I mean I love the mon, but it's C+ in OU so I'm just wondering.

Is sableye really that big? Prankster Will-O-Wisp is really its only niche, and still rolls over to any attack. Probably not worth wasting your sash on.

Same with Whimsicott. What makes it better here than in OU?

Reasoning for Clawitzer's placement?

Why's Diggersby so low? Yes, it's terribad defensively and takes sash, but it's extremely strong with powerful priority, can usually take down one opposing mon and hurt the second before it goes down.

Reasoning for Scrafty's placement? I actually quite like Scrafty, but it just doesn't seem useful in standard play outside of Doubles (both BSD and smogdubs).

Noivern in C+? I've never really understood its niche, it seems like its ranking is just some kind of agreement. It's ranked in OU but literally never seen, EVER, so I'm quite in the dark with it.

Torn-T. Why is it S in OU but all the way down in C+ here? I know ice moves and Rock Tomb are everywhere, but it's still an extremely good pivot and hits quite hard.

Vivillon getting ranked looks interesting. I guess it's due to 3v3 and no sleep clause, so it can just sleep powder > QD > sleep powder > QD > etc until it can sweep, and sash can help with sleep security and clinching sweeps a lot.

I think that's it.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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If you actually play the meta you'll notice that it's completely different from OU and that their rankings/bans mean nothing here. Mega lucario is definitely not higher than A- lmao.
 
I'm just getting into this tier from smogon OU, and I have a few questions about the VR.
Alright, I'm gonna try to answer all these as best I can. Firstly, I think it's a bad mindset to compare the format to OU while you try to learn. You wouldn't try to learn PU or Ubers by comparing everything to OU, right? This format is no exception to that, and probably worse to compare to actually because 3v3 is pretty drastically different from 6v6. I would also like to point out that the VR thread isn't like the bible of the meta right now, especially in it's current state. Our vr thread doesn't move as fast as others like the OU one. It's still kind of a WIP, especially the lower ranks at least. Alright, so let's get into this..

Suicune in A+? Crocune is generally better vs. more opps I thought, so it would be better in OU than here. Elecs are also more popular here, so what's with the very high tiering?
Suicune's most common sets aren't even really CroCune in BSS most of the time. Suicune is just a good blanket check to things like Kanga, Chomp, Mence, Mamoswine, Blaziken. And with calm mind it as a decent matchup against some special attackers like aegislash. Having something that works as a blanket check to many common pokes in the meta is a lot more useful in 3v3 where you cant just bring a lot of pokemon to beat everything you need to.

What's up with Reflect Rocky Helmet Serperior, and why is it listed before the offensive set on the smogdex? It takes up helmet, really lowers your offensive capabilities, and isn't really bulky enough from my experience anyway.
It's just a more offensive check to things like Kang and Chomp. It can reflect up on them and kind of use them to set up as well. Glare offers really nice utility too that not a lot of mons have access to. Also Serperior doesn't lose momentum as much as things like Suicune and Cress do most of the time.

Zapdos doesn't get to Defog anymore and has competition with Thundurus, how is it still A? Especially since a bulky thund set is listed, it's got even more competition from thund in an area it doesn't in OU. Is a bulky electric that more viable? I know megamence is a thing, but there are already a good amount of ways to beat it (AFAIK megamence is the main reason cress and p2 are so good, and they just kind of hitchhiked their way up to A due to walling potential + ice beam + twave), and I'm p sure band tflame is a 2HKO with blitz.
It's very true that Thundurus is usually the better option over Zap. And like I said, the VR aren't set in stone, whether it's around A or A- or whatever is kind of debatable honestly. Zapdos mainly sets it self apart in Roost. It has a lot more longevity compared to Thundurus. Zapdos usually finds a home on more balanced teams that function using good defensive cores, and zapdos' ability to stay around a lot longer than Thund can be pretty helpful.

M-Luke in A-? It was unanimously banned just like mence in OU, but unlike mence, I don't see what's keeping it out of S. Strong mixed attacker, a special attacker with priority, incredibly strong CC, blatantly hard-checks kang (and if you pull off a CC in normal form and get sucker to get you +2 it's generally GG), surprisingly bulky with its combination of >110 speed and extremely high offenses. Outspeeds opposing priority, can set up on both sides of the spectrum. I'm sure there's a legitimate reason, but I'm just not seeing it.
This thing is mostly good when it sets up, and it's really hard to set up in this meta sometimes. There are lots of common things that threaten it and lots of things that can revenge kill it. It usually only sees play on very specific teams that put a lot of support into giving Luc opportunities to set up, and it is pretty viable on those teams, but really nothing amazing.

Latios in B+. Is this exclusively due to M-Gar and the irrelevancy of Defog?
Yeah defog is useless and a lot of things common on the ladder threaten latios(kanga, aegi, sash/scarf chomp, mawile, megagar). There's also no keldeos running around that you need a lati for. It's a solid mon but not amazing.

Thundy-T in B+. What does it have over Thundurus bar better choiced sets?
Thund-T is actually a nice check to Thund-I. That's mostly why it sees play. It's also a really good wallbreaker with Nasty Plot and has great coverage that other electric types like Raikou wish they had. That being said, Thund-I is of course better overall, but thund-t does have a niche.

Terrakion in B+? beats kang, thund, tflame, mence even, band SE hits washtom hard so it's not walled by that, doesn't roll over to any attack, as much item diversity as Garchomp. Band terrak is like Chomp instead it's harder to take advantage of a locked-in edge, only one of his stabs have immunities rather than both, so less counterplay, etc.
Blaziken is usally a better fighting type. Common things like Suicune and Cress usually don't have too much trouble switching in. Most ground types beat this 1 on 1. It's a good mon, but has some crucial issues.

Reasoning for Heattom being so high?
Rocks being less common means heattom is more viable. It's typing is pretty nice as a flying check and it functions as something that can beat steels, switch into fairies, and other stuff that its fire type provides. You'll see it on teams that might really need the fire coverage. It's bro rotom-w has a better overall typing and stab move of course, and that's why it sees more play but rotom-h's typing gives it a solid niche on certain teams.

Chandelure in B. I'm assuming scarf shadow ball to let it hit mgar? Not sure what made it rise so much aside from that.
B isn't really a high rank. This thing isn't that great and B should generally be seen as pretty average. Especially in a meta where the S-A ranks are incredibly dominate.

Reasoning for Entei being so high? I mean I love the mon, but it's C+ in OU so I'm just wondering.
With only 3 mons, Sacred Fire is a bit more devastating to switch into. This mon isnt super good, but it's a solid choice if you feel like you need a fire type on your team for any reason.

Is sableye really that big? Prankster Will-O-Wisp is really its only niche, and still rolls over to any attack. Probably not worth wasting your sash on.
It's not big and is generally seen as mediocre. You pretty much always want to mega this thing.

Same with Whimsicott. What makes it better here than in OU?
Another mediocre mon, just annoying. Sometimes can stall you out with leech seed if you aren't prepared for it somehow. If youre assuming it's good because of its VR, like I said VR isn't the bible and also B and below is generally pretty mediocre stuff.

Reasoning for Clawitzer's placement?
(this is actually gonna be moving way down next time the VR thread gets updated lol)

Why's Diggersby so low? Yes, it's terribad defensively and takes sash, but it's extremely strong with powerful priority, can usually take down one opposing mon and hurt the second before it goes down.
There's a lot of good ground types. It's hard to justify using over those good ground types. It's hard to justify using it on the same team as those good ground types. It has potential but the low bulk and speed are a pretty big hinderance.

Reasoning for Scrafty's placement? I actually quite like Scrafty, but it just doesn't seem useful in standard play outside of Doubles (both BSD and smogdubs).
(also moving down next time VR thread updates, which will be soon btw, this thing is shit)

Noivern in C+? I've never really understood its niche, it seems like its ranking is just some kind of agreement. It's ranked in OU but literally never seen, EVER, so I'm quite in the dark with it.
This thing is also shit, expect it's rank to probably change at some point. Main niche is being a fast offensive thing that outspeeds greninja.

Torn-T. Why is it S in OU but all the way down in C+ here? I know ice moves and Rock Tomb are everywhere, but it's still an extremely good pivot and hits quite hard.
Regen isn't as valuable in 3v3 where you're going to be switching a lot less. Hurricane misses are way more crucial in 3v3 and it doesn't really have good stab moves outside of that. Just doesn't really hit hard enough in a meta where you need your offensive pokes to hit hard af and be really impactful. Knock Off U-turn shenanigans aren't impactful enough for this thing to be useful.

Vivillon getting ranked looks interesting. I guess it's due to 3v3 and no sleep clause, so it can just sleep powder > QD > sleep powder > QD > etc until it can sweep, and sash can help with sleep security and clinching sweeps a lot.
Not an amazing mon but yeah lack of sleep clause means this thing can get annoying if you're not prepared for it.


But yeah, I would suggest to just go out and play the meta yourself. Pay attention to what's working and what isn't in your battles and learn from experience. Instead of theorymoning based on knowledge of metas you already know, it's better to learn by playing first hand. Play the ladder a bit, challenge other people who play the meta, all that good stuff.

Hope this helped, and hope you enjoy the meta as you get into it.
 
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Thanks for the help, all the answers make sense to me.

I was trying to compare it to OU due to being probably the most similar metagame - gen 6 singles, with only a few extra bans in place, and 6v6. Obviously expected stuff to be different, with some radical, but I frankly didn't expect /too/ much to change a lot, which is frankly a mistake on my part.

I actually just started two days ago, and I've already gotten a decent grasp on a lot of things - mainly, mons and sets that make more sense in a 3v3 scenario than 6v6, usually concerning sustaining - staying alive long enough vs. staying alive, 3-0ing instead of 6-0ing meaning you can take more hits in your sweep, etc. Stuff like CB talon > roost + SD sharp beak talon. Questioned cress + p2 at first but after playing a few games I can definitely see where it comes from.

I guess this meta is extremely hard to look at from a theory perspective - it makes literally no sense until you try and use it. It's like TTar in BW smogdubs, you'd think it'd be a B tier rank or something but it's surprisingly godlike.

I was mainly asking since I view skill as the mean of book knowledge and experience, and I wanted to make sure I got the former out of the way as quickly as possible.
 
Yeah dont worry about it. You're not the only person to start out by comparing to OU, its a pretty common thing for new guys to do. Good too see you're learning though, feel free to stop by the PS room to play & learn more.
 

Hulavuta

punk ROCK baby!! YEAH!!!!!
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Yeah, honestly 3v3 is nothing like OU just due to the format. Weird unpredictable things happen when you change variables and things are a lot different. Stuff like Mega Lucario and Mega Salamence are not really OP (and my personal opinion is that Charizard-X is way better). Kanga and Mawile are still pretty busted though but that's just me 'cause most people think they are fair.

Unfortunately like the Matrix, nobody can really just tell you what it is you just have to experience it for yourself. Only similarity I can say for sure is that Klefki literally has no reason to exist
 

Demantoid

APMS Founder
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What are your highest ratings? I am happy to say i just peaked at 1817 singles with the same team i use for a long time (avalugg, mega ampharos, reuniclus, aegislash, hippowdon, clefable). After i participated in the tournament i became a lot better at predicting stuff, if i lead with ampharos and my opponent with a water pokemon and has a ground pokemon in the back, i always go for dragon pulse instead of thunderbolt. This sounds very easy but it gives me a lot of wins. Experience and doing lots of battles helps too i guess.
My highest rating ever was either 1943 or 1947 about a year ago in doubles. That was a very interesting season for me because I used weird stuff like Cradily or Mega Houndoom in the 1800s. There's actually a video somewhere of me having Cradily.

My peak in singles is only like 1750 or something because I'm bad at singles.
 
My highest rating ever was either 1943 or 1947 about a year ago in doubles. That was a very interesting season for me because I used weird stuff like Cradily or Mega Houndoom in the 1800s. There's actually a video somewhere of me having Cradily.

My peak in singles is only like 1750 or something because I'm bad at singles.
wtf demantoid

I quit while I was ahead today and I'm at 1632 after 4-0ing three people in a row. lol.
Then again I think you guys physically battle more than me, I do like 3-5 a day, 5 days a week. How much do you guys do (on cart)? o.0
 
wtf demantoid

I quit while I was ahead today and I'm at 1632 after 4-0ing three people in a row. lol.
Then again I think you guys physically battle more than me, I do like 3-5 a day, 5 days a week. How much do you guys do (on cart)? o.0
Good days 12-15 but some days only a few 3. Pretty much every day some though and i play with the same team so i get faster experience than.
 
Good days 12-15 but some days only a few 3. Pretty much every day some though and i play with the same team so i get faster experience than.
Hmm, ok. I've been using the same team (items, moves, everthing) since.. mid Season 14, so I'm very familiar with it lol. Might go back and try to fix my other Doubles team. It's good, just needs a bit of tweaking. I only have ~40 battles total this season :/
 
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Thundurus: 91-108 (48.9 - 58%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Thundurus: 93-110 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

Was running way too many calcs as usual, and discovered this. Why on earth does the one with more Def have a chance to be 2hkod but the other doesn't? Especially cuz the higher Def takes less in general, lower max and min roll. It's prolly some mega complex mathy thing I'll never understand, but have to ask.

I think this enforces that 96 Def/ 156+ Def is best. Notably that avoids any chance for Greninjabto OHKO me from full, so I can make it parad even if it's Lum(bar Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak Gren, but w/e)

I like specially defensive to take some of the nasty special attackers that threaten me better. Also because I want Taunt, and max SpA seems weird with just the BoltBeam coverage Thund normally has. And it still OHKOs non bulky Talons and some other stuff. It wins out against offensive Thund and Thund-T, at least usually.

But yea, spend too much time on calcs. I want the best EV spread I can find tho.
 
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Thundurus: 91-108 (48.9 - 58%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Thundurus: 93-110 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

Was running way too many calcs as usual, and discovered this. Why on earth does the one with more Def have a chance to be 2hkod but the other doesn't? Especially cuz the higher Def takes less in general, lower max and min roll. It's prolly some mega complex mathy thing I'll never understand, but have to ask.
Because there's a chance that the first attack will do less than 50% of Thundurus's HP and then the second attack will do over 50%, resulting in a 2HKO because the Sitrus Berry never activated.
 
Because there's a chance that the first attack will do less than 50% of Thundurus's HP and then the second attack will do over 50%, resulting in a 2HKO because the Sitrus Berry never activated.
Omg you are a genius, thanks. Not a Sitrus person lol, I'm die hard Lefties. But they really don't work that well on most Thund, only really Swagger and/ or sub ones.
 
What's generally considered Tyranitar's best set? I'm looking to breed one soon, but I'm not sure what nature I should go for.
 
What's generally considered Tyranitar's best set? I'm looking to breed one soon, but I'm not sure what nature I should go for.
Not sure what is the "best" per se; kind of depends on your team and what you want it to accomplish.

Adamant is the most commonly used nature according to PGL, although Jolly can be used on DD/ Choice Scarf sets. I've also been seeing a lot more special T-tar running around lately. Stone Edge/ Crunch / Ice Punch / Superpower / EQ / Dragon Dance are always solid moves to run on physical sets, although special sets with stuff like Ice Beam and Dark Pulse can definitely catch a lot of Tyranitar's usual counters off guard.

Of course, a lot of this also depends on whether we're talking Mega or regular Tyranitar. Both are pretty usable in BSS, imo.
 
I looked at Serperior's stats and saw that its most common partner is Mawile. If I want to make a team using those two, how should I fill in the rest? Covering for the compounded fire weakness seems tough.
 
I looked at Serperior's stats and saw that its most common partner is Mawile. If I want to make a team using those two, how should I fill in the rest? Covering for the compounded fire weakness seems tough.
Garchomp and Talon are common teammates for both, and both resist fire. I'm surprised Mawi is so common with Serp. I guess the Glare support is really helpful.
 
So I've always thought bringing two megas was a good idea and dare I say, near essential.

But I'm now leaning towards having Lucario plus Hippo & Dragonite then Swagplay and two of (Sp Def) Talonflame, (Solid Snake) Serp. Possible alternates include Chomp or Mamo.)

This gets rid of any concerns that I've had with severe weakness stacking and I know I don't have to bring a Mega....

This is just some rambling that I didn't want to put on my RMT. The question I have is this. Good idea or not?
 
So I've always thought bringing two megas was a good idea and dare I say, near essential.

But I'm now leaning towards having Lucario plus Hippo & Dragonite then Swagplay and two of (Sp Def) Talonflame, (Solid Snake) Serp. Possible alternates include Chomp or Mamo.)

This gets rid of any concerns that I've had with severe weakness stacking and I know I don't have to bring a Mega....

This is just some rambling that I didn't want to put on my RMT. The question I have is this. Good idea or not?
Well you're right that you don't HAVE to bring a mega, but you usually want to be able to bring one cuz of their high stats and generally good abilities. Luc certainly fits those descriptions.

So the question is how often do you feel Luc has such a bad match up against the enemy team you don't want to bring it? If it's very often, say more than half the time, then I'd recommend a double mega. For something more splash able like Gengar or Kang I think single mega is usually more reasonable.

This might just be my bias cuz I like Megas tho. I'd take it with a grain of salt unless someone better agrees.
 

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