Sorry, just went and read the rules, wont be a problem again. :)
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Battle Spot Teambuilding Discussion & Help Thread (read post #453, page 19)
- Thread starter ethan06
- Start date
Hi all, I'm new to competitive Pokemon and to Smogon. I was told by a friend that you're all friendly and I should ask in here for help with putting together my first Battle Spot doubles team.
I read the Battle Spot introduction on Smogon and it mentioned a couple of members prepared to help with battle-ready Pokemon, although I'd also like to learn the in-game grind. A bit of both would be great.
I'm a big fan of Venusaur and Gengar, so using those would be nice, but if they're not competitive then fair enough!
Hopefully I'm in the right place, I apologize if I've posted in the wrong section etc. Thanks in advance, I don't take anyone's time lightly.
Sam
I read the Battle Spot introduction on Smogon and it mentioned a couple of members prepared to help with battle-ready Pokemon, although I'd also like to learn the in-game grind. A bit of both would be great.
I'm a big fan of Venusaur and Gengar, so using those would be nice, but if they're not competitive then fair enough!
Hopefully I'm in the right place, I apologize if I've posted in the wrong section etc. Thanks in advance, I don't take anyone's time lightly.
Sam
Hey there MonitorUK and welcome!
There's a dedicated giveaway section here in our Wi-Fi forum where you can get a whole bunch of stuff for free so definitely check that out: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/giveaways.316/ These include Ditto giveaways where you can get standard flawless spreads for breeding almost anything, and ones with specific IV spreads for different Hidden Power types.
I think Doubles can be really hard to jump right into if your competitive experience is quite low. It's probably better if you first get into the Battle Spot Singles metagame and use that experience to move across when you feel comfortable. If you're really new then you can also practice the format at the Battle Maison against the AI so you at least get the mechanics down.
(Mega) Gengar is certainly quite strong in Doubles, it can be a terror with Perish Song but it usually just goes offensive to utilise it's amazing special attack stat and good coverage. Venusaur isn't fantastic but it's definitely usable, it's most often used alongside Mega Charizard Y to make use of Chlorophyll. Both of these are also very good in Singles (especially Gengar) so if you want to try that out like I suggested then you can still use them here (Venusaur is used differently so you'd probably have to breed a Singles and Doubles variant though).
Oh also, I moved this thread into the Teambuilding Help thread as we prefer to not have stuff like this as its own thread.
Help for stuff like this is best done via our Chatroom on Pokemon Showdown as we can all do it live, rather than via single replies here, so definitely come and hang out! The link is below in my signature under "PS!"
Thanks a lot! I think I will try the Battle Maison first, hopefully doubles won't be too hard to jump into eventually. I'd rather play the "official" tournament format, if you know what I mean - just feels right for some reason. I'll definitely come and hang out in the chat room as well!
Battle Spot Doubles isn't actually the official format any more. I personally actually found doubles easier to play at first but that isn't the case for most people.
For battle spot doubles both pokemon you chose are usable in both mega and non-mega forms. Regular Gengar holds a Focus Sash and has moves from a list of Will-o-Wisp, Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Taunt, Icy Wind, and Protect. Mega Gengar can be used as the Mega of Perish Trap and can also form a disruption core utilizing Encore Disable shenanigans or an offensive core with Fake Tears+Mega Gengar attack with either Liepard or Whimsicott.
Regular Venusaur should always be used with Charizard-Y and holds a Focus Sash or Life Orb. It can also still be used with its mega stone even with Charizard on the team. Focus Sash holders usually use Sludge Bomb, a grass stab, and Sleep Powder. Life Orb usually uses Sludge Bomb, a Grass stab and Hidden Power Ice or Ground. Mega Stone holders usually have Sludge Bomb, a grass stab, and Leech Seed (although they sometimes still use hidden power). All have Protect as the fourth move. When Mega Venusaur is the focus of the team it is built very defensively with Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed and Protect.
If you want to read their analyses you can find them in the smogon dex under vgc 15.
I've literally only ever seen 1 single Mega Gengar that was actually offensive, and that is my friend's that isn't competitive. I am 100% ok with an offensive Mega Gengar, but beyond that, never once since its introduction have I seen a Mega Gengar that didn't spam Perish Song. Bold + bulky Perish Trap, that all ran almost identical sets. I've also never won a match against an opponent with a Mega Gengar. It is the absolute most obnoxious cancer ever created in Doubles. Wolfe Glick won a VGC regonial or two in VGC15, so it's not exactly unviabe in high level play either.
In terms of Doubles:
Mega Venusaur I ran for all of 2015, it was very good at first but the problem with Char-Y + Mega Venusaur cores is Mega Salamence, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Kangaskhan (to an extent) outright laugh at the core and all three are very popular (top 3 Megas, in fact). Heatran and a few other things are issues too.
If you ever want sets / advice for Mega Venusaur let me know, I used it a ton and could probably build a team around it. I also have plenty of materials if you need to breed one :P
I'm kinda the guy that runs everything Battle Spot Doubles around here, so I can help in that area. I'm pretty useless for Singles, Triples, and Rotations though.
Well Perish Song was only used on 20% of Gengar in s13 and 17% in s14. Kinda hard to argue with stats...
I'm pretty sure offensive remains the most common. M-Gengar + Whimsicott is pretty popular. The whole Fake Tears with strong special attacks and Encore + Disable can be pretty disruptive.
Now Venusaur. I think that it's one of the best megas in doubles, after Garde, Kang, Mence and CharY or course. I used for most of the 'post-worlds but pre-rule change' period in VGC and nabbed 205CP with it (T8 regional and 1,1,2,2 PC finishes). I paired it with a sub toxic Aegi which handily dealt with Gardevoir, Cressselia, Kang and also Mence, to an extent. Venu-Aegi just fit so well together and I found it to be a really nice core to build around. One of the few defensive setups I've had really work in doubles.
And Gengarite was on ~58% of all Gengar for s14. Believe me, I KNOW it makes no statistical sense. But from memory and my notebooks (I've been keeping battle notes for months now), every mega Gengar I have ever seen was PerishTrap. Invariably. And imo, it's the most effective way to run it; it's basically impossible to counter. I've never beat it. Regular Gengar, annoying, sure, but at least it dies without 2+ guarenteed KO's. Offensive Mega Gengar in Doubles? That, I could actually handle / be 110% ok with. Don't get me wrong, I use a T-Wave + Swagger + Foul Play Klefki in Doubles, I am not above fighting dirty, but PerishTrap Mega Gengar is an entirely different teir of cunt.
I've never even seen the bolded combo. Saw something similar with Gardevoir + Metal Sound Klefki though, it was funny AND I died. 4 straight rounds of Swagger self-hits, I was no match.
I've been running Mega Venusaur + Sub Aegislash since... May 2014. lol. I went to the Kansas City regionals with it; one kid damn near threw his DS at me, cannibal remembers lol.
It's magnificent. And basically nothing could touch it '14 lol. Massive synergy.
But yes, I'd agree it's probably the best Mega after the Top 4 (usage) ones. Only thing on the chart after them is... what, Mawile?
The thing is though, usage stats only count what players with 1600+ use on the ladder. No offense, but I know you spent a considerable amount of time in the 1500s this season (and last season iirc) due to some bad luck and testing stuff (based on your posts). The stats also don't correspond to VGC15 PC's (ofc), so maybe PerishGar was really popular at those.
Perish Song Mega Gengar is one of those strategies that needs proper team support, and there just aren't that many dedicated Perish Teams floating around. Offensive builds are so much easier to slap onto a team, so I think that's why it shows in the stats.
Season 13 was... 1576 at the end of it, I remember peaking around 1610 with a Mega Metagross team though. Season 14, I was stuck in The Trollzone for a bit but I did end the season at 1665 (#65 in USA). People's luck ran out after the first 10 matches or so. +200 ranking points happened in ~20 battles. I was most pleased to soar mostly undefeated for 20 matches straight from a ~1480 ranking to 1665 the day before the season ended. :P
So that means... my stupid Heracross is forever seared into the PGL stats for season 14. I wonder if I'm the literal 8.741% usage of Moxie and 8.741% Knock Off, I ran both on the same set.
Thankfully, PerishCancer was/is rare above 1570. Gengar is by no means rare, but it's almost always LO or Sash from my experience; and stats do suggest that, for non-Mega Gengar, those are the top 2 items lol
Anyway, I've derailed the fuck out of this thread so I'm going to stop until someone with a team comes along; the team idea I've been thinking of for the new season isn't really coherent enough to post yet, iirc need 5+ mons. I have like, 2. Or are cores fine?
Doubles isn't really any harder than Singles if you're gonna use someone else's team that's known to be good, but if you want to make your own team it's harder than Singles. Tons of different starts, all viable to some extent, some better than others. Sun, rain, Sand, Gravity, etc, and lots of moves to choose from, all of which are good in doubles. Helping Hand, Rage Powder, Follow Me, most spread attacks like EQ and Surf, Terrain moves, Dual Screens to help a sweeper, Growl(think it might be viable for hitting both foes,) Skill Swap(two things to pick from means it's basically twice as good as in Singles,) the dreaded Perish Song, manual whether, Fake Out, and Ofc Protect which you have to use on most stuff, contributing to 4MSS. And that's not even all the food moves to consider(Feint, Heal Pulse, etc.) Then you got the huge number of mons to pick from. Unlike in Singles where the best stuff is pretty well defined, there are a lot of Pokes in Doubles that are really good, and many more that show promise and would probably be fun to build around like Gogoat and Arbok(ask @ProjectTitan313.)
Hopefully I didn't discourage you too much lol.
I love Mega Venu in Singles, but she definitely seems like a lesser option in doubles. For you ever wanted to go back to that core WoW on Zard would help more with Kang and Mence, and maybe even EQ on Venu for Tran.
Hey all just started competitive Pokemon, and I have been working on a team for Battle Spot and I have just one piece missing, I think. What do you guys think about this team so far, and which pokemon would you recommend to finish it out? I was thinking Thundrus for a consistent special attacker, or Azumarill or possibly Rotom-W for better coverage. What criticisms or weaknesses do you foresee?
right now I have a Mega-Gengar in the final slot, but I am interested in replacing her with something that will give me better coverage offensively and defensively.
- Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Multiscale
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Lucario @ Megalucarionite
Inner Focus (Adaptability)
Jolly Nature
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Iron Tail
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Stance Change
Quiet Nature
252 SpA / 252 HP/ 4 SpD
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet
Sand Stream
Relaxed Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Yawn
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Stone Edge
- Polygon2 @ Eviolite
Trace
Calm Nature
252 HP /120 Def / 136 SpD
- Recover
- Tri-Attack
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
right now I have a Mega-Gengar in the final slot, but I am interested in replacing her with something that will give me better coverage offensively and defensively.
Hello ImBlueDaBuDee and welcome to smogon! Your team looks pretty good. Hippo, Dnite, and Lucario is one of the best cores in battle spot singles. Although I do have a few suggestions.
Adamant works for dragonite but I usually prefer jolly because after a dragon dance, it outspeeds gengar-m and manectric which I feel can come in handy.
Mega lucario looks fine but you have to watch out when using Iron tail since it has low accuracy.
You should also replace Stone edge on Hippo with something more reliable like rock slide or EQ.
What's the reason behind the specialized porygon2 spread? Does it survive any particular attacks?
Aegislash also looks good but I don't really like sacred sword on it since you already have Lucario. Although not common I really like hidden power ice on aegislash and you could try that out and see how it works.
Finally, for the last slot, I think you need a pokemon which can check serperior, blaziken, greninja etc. That is why I think choice banded talonflame works on your team.
Anyways, hope you win with this team and have fun! Also, be sure to visit the battle spot room on pokemon showdown. A lot of us hang out there and can have practice battles with you and actively give you advice.
Hey i run hippowdon too but then with rock slide. Rock slide has far more accuracy and it still can kill the pokemon it needs: talonflame and charizard. I would consider changing stone edge to rock slide therefore. I also have earthquake instead of stealth rock for pokemon like garchomp and mega mawile, but i understand you want to phaze with stealth rock yawn combo. Your kinda weak to choice scarf mamoswine as it has super effective STAB for 4 of your 5 pokemon. You are also still a bit vulnerable to ghost, maybe weavile then? If you choose weavile, i would change lucario to a special set, which is its most used set anyways.
That's a nice build. I have previously tried out the lucario/dragonite/hippowdon core and it works really well. However, the Lucario moveset I used I found to be more successful simply due to the fact that people love to bring in Aegislash against you and wall you. I ended up replacing ExtremeSpeed with BlazeKick (an egg move) and replaced IronTail with BulletPunch (another eggmove) as Lucario definitely still needs a priority move to finish low health mons, and it's still powerful enough due to Adaptability. Blaze Kick OHKO's opposing Aegislash and catches a lot of other mons weak to fire off guard (Mega Mawile for example). Just be sure you don't get sucked into Aegislash's mindgames, as if you predict wrongly with a kingshield you'll be screwed.
There is one thing I will say and that's to be extremely careful of Thundurus. If you lead with hippowdon and the opposing thundurus carries Grass Knot (very likely) he WILL OHKO you and cripple your team.
This is just me, but I prefer to have 2 Mega's each with different specialities in the same team, for a few reasons. It keeps the opponent guessing as to which one you plan to bring out, but also gives you more options/coverage. If the two megas are weak to different things then it also means the opponent has to be sure to have checks for them both or they run the risk of getting stomped by one or the other. Take Mega Kang for example. If they don't have any check for this mon, due to its insane power it will single handedly sweep their team. It's also great for mindgames, people see Kang and are pretty much forced to bring their usual check for it (ferrothorn/cresselia/rockyhelmetmons) to which you simply send in your other mega instead and (hopefully) ruin their plans.
Having two megas also allows you to be a bit more flexible with the item clause, but this is just a minor bonus.
However in saying that I think Rotom-W fits really nicely with your current team.
I am starting to make a Garchomp set With Rough skin and rocky helmet. Give me your thoughts on this set.
Garchomp@RockyHelmet
Jolly nature (outspeeding other sweepers)
Rough Skin ability
Evs: 252Atk / 252Spe / 4Def
Moves:
Dragon claw
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
Stone edge (coverage)
Garchomp@RockyHelmet
Jolly nature (outspeeding other sweepers)
Rough Skin ability
Evs: 252Atk / 252Spe / 4Def
Moves:
Dragon claw
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
Stone edge (coverage)
Not a huge fan of rocky helmet on garchomp but if you like it, you can use it. Anyways, replace dragon claw with outrage. Definitely replace Draco with swords dance/fire blast(if you have a ferro weakness)/dual chop. Also stone edge's accuracy can be a problem so maybe replace it with rock tomb or rock slide.
Do you know if there is a move tutor for outrage? Battle resort maybe?
Yeah there is a move tutor in Battle resort on the beach. Just use serebii for all that. Psynergy would definitely agree lol.
Rocky Helmet Chomp isn't really good, mainly cause there are better Helmet mons like Skarms(yummy synergy with Chomp who is immune to electric and resists fire. Skarms resists fairy and dragon,) Ferro, and Mandibuzz.
Draco Meteor really doesn't work on non mega Chomp, and Mega isn't that good, why you basically never see it. Fire Blast is sometimes run, even with a -SpA nature, cause it does so much to Skarms, Ferro, and Scizor. That's pretty much the same logic behind my decision to run Fire Blast on Mega Aggron a long time ago, even tho it's base 140 Atk is way higher than its base 60 SpA. Because Draco Meteor doesn't have nearly as good coverage, there's really not much point to it. Even on Megamence Outrage will be stronger.
I mainly want to use the rocky helmet to counter Brave bird users and life orb Crobat. And stealth rocks with one of my other pokemon, but yeah im thinking of using Fire blast or swords dance, definitely outrage.
Would it not be best to use an offensive chomp (which is most certainly its strong point in Battle Spot Singles) and have an alternative mon to switch into to counter the mons you're having problems with?
Rocky Helmet Gyarados (Physical bulky gyarados spread with RestTalk) for example works very well with Chomp and completely walls offensive bravebird mons like Talonflame.
I wouldn't recommend Stealth Rocks in battle spot singles unless you have a definitive team around forcing people to constantly swap in and that's unlikely. You're almost always better off getting off some meaningful damage.
I can definitely see why you're doing what you're doing. Helmet and RS damage really seems like it'd do a lot of residual damage(though Ferro does this better with Iron Barbs and more bulk, while Skarmory resists the Brave Birds you mentioned, and after an Iron Defense or two doesn't really get brought down by physical attacks at all.)
I like to run Garchomp + a Rocky Helmet user, as oppossed to Rocky Chompy/Ferrothorn. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin/Iron Barbs is useless against EQ / special moves / etc, so it's a wasted ability+item at times. Rocky Helmet Cresselia is a favorite of mine in Doubles; most physical mons just cringe as soon as they hit it, EQ doesn't mean jack shit because Levitate, and special mons are just Calm Mind fodder. Have had literally DOZENS of matches that right from team preview, I could say "This guy can't break Cress" and literally just spend the other 3 team slots on supporting that. idk if that's any good in Singles though. But Bulky Gyarados is something I have passionately hated since... Gen 4? And died to. A lot. Like CM Cress. So honestly, try that Gyarados idea, that sounds good. Having Chompy + Rocky Gyarados should keep Kangaskhan and most physical mons from getting very far.
Oh, I've been working on a Doubles team, but so far all I have is core. But according to the OP that's all I really need! \o/
Metagross @ Mega Stone
Jolly, 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)
- Iron Head
- Protect
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt
Salamence @ Mega Stone
Naive, 20 Atk, 236 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
- Double-Edge
- Protect
- Hyper Voice / Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
Suicune @ Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
Bold, 252 HP, 180 Def, 12 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 60 Speed
Ability: Pressure
- Scald
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Icy Wind
Jolly, 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Clear Body (Tough Claws)
- Iron Head
- Protect
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt
Salamence @ Mega Stone
Naive, 20 Atk, 236 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
- Double-Edge
- Protect
- Hyper Voice / Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
Suicune @ Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
Bold, 252 HP, 180 Def, 12 Sp. Atk, 4 Sp. Def, 60 Speed
Ability: Pressure
- Scald
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Icy Wind
Saw a guy running a nice double-mega core with Mence + Metagross that I wanted to try for Hoenn-hype. Metagross+Mence has been fine since Gen 3, and with Megas the basic idea is either Mega Mence + Non-Mega Metagross, or MegaGross and usually leave Mence behind. Mence could run a more physical spread + EQ to break Heatran, the one above is a standard MixMence spread to OHKO 252+ Amoonguss. Suicune dodges a 2HKO from Jolly Khan, with ~19% chance to get 2HKO'd from Adamant D-E. Speed outruns Jolly Garchomp and all things slower in one Icy Wind, and in Tailwind outruns even Timid max Speed Mega Aerodactyl/Alakazam and Scarf Modest Hydreigon.
It's also the obvious Speed Control mon. Might run Calm Mind over Protect but the lack of healing makes me question that. Metagross can function non-Mega, checking off Fairy / Mence / Landog for MegaMence, so that Suicune doesn't have too heavy of a list to handle. Mence doesn't do much non-Mega, just Intimidate and Draco. Could EQ against (BAN ME PLEASE) too.
There's a marked weakness to Thundurus, Mega Gardevoir (Garde+Amoonguss, Metagross threatens both but gets redircted and Spore'd), Mega Swampert teams are rare but I'm fucked. Oh, Char-Y forces me to run MegaMence too.
Have fun :P