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What do you think a good fifth/sixth team member to this team would be? I’m kinda struggling with it a bit (and I’ve been busy lately too, which doesn’t help). Any input would be appreciated.

Dracozolt w/ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 SpD
Adamant nature
- Bolt Beak
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Aerial Ace

Gyarados w/ Wacan Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Jolly nature
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Power Whip
- Dragon Dance

Excadrill w/ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Jolly nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Tomb
- Swords Dance

Togekiss w/ Scope Lens
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Timid nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot

I’ve been using Cinderace and Porygon2 as the last two Pokémon, but I feel it could be made better. What do you all think?
 
Personally I'm out of practice, but one thing I'm noticing is that I don't see anything to deal with Hippowdon and its Yawn. You could switch Togekiss to Lum Berry, though that doesn't directly answer the issue of what your other two pokes should be. Alternatively, some kind of Taunt/Rocks lead such as Tyranitar or Lycanroc-Dusk could be worth a consideration. With Rocks they would also have synergy with your set-up sweepers Gyarados and Togekiss, the latter of which will obviously destroy physically defensive Hippowdon at +2.
 
So the event Amoonguss is of course very geared towards doubles with its 0 speed IV and negative speed nature, but is there anything really relevant that it out-speeds in the BSS metagame? Like, could I keep those things and maybe take advantage of them for trick room setups, or would it really be missing out on out-speeding something?
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-stadium-speed-tiers-version-1-2.3657003/

50 /
,
/ 30 / Neutral / 0 / 31 / 0

45 / :conkeldurr: / 45 / Negative / 0 / 0 / 0
40 / :rhyperior: / 40 / Negative / 0 / 0 / 0
33 /
/ 30 / Neutral / 0 / 31 / -1
31 /
/ 30 / Negative / 0 / 0 / 0
30 / :hatterene: / 29 / Negative / 0 / 0 / 0

Amoonguss is 30 base speed, same speed as Snorlax. Having 0 speed IVs, it would be slower than Snorlax, Corsola, Conkeldurr and Rhyperior. Here, honestly I'd much prefer going second even outside of Trick Room - you want to take a hit from them (not hard) and sleep them, so you have an extra sleep turn to work with in terms of switching out to a better position. And you'd rather let Amoonguss take the damage, not something else.

The problem here is that it's also slower than a -1 Curse Snorlax. If you're specially defensive, it's not unreasonable that you get OHKOed by the boosted Heat Crash.

+1 28+ Atk Snorlax Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 222-262 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Max Flare even physically defensive versions have issues surviving but it's kind of unreasonable for Snorlax to immediately Dynamax on it without knowing exactly what spread you are. My guess is your Amoonguss ideally wants to reside in the 35-39 range (to dodge potential speed creep / 4 EV dump on the Curselax), if difficulty in getting any specific IV was not a concern. But with Curselax being pretty rare, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Amoonguss's speed IV really won't matter too much, but yeah.
 
Thank you very much, that's good to know. I may roll with it in BSS for now, but make a new one for singles when I actually start dipping my toe into doubles (which may be sooner now thanks to snagging this).
 
So the event Amoonguss is of course very geared towards doubles with its 0 speed IV and negative speed nature, but is there anything really relevant that it out-speeds in the BSS metagame? Like, could I keep those things and maybe take advantage of them for trick room setups, or would it really be missing out on out-speeding something?]
I'm curious why it's EV trained but it's evs are not maxed, is there a reason for that? Also irked we can't change the Korean name but oh well. Always wanted a shiny Amoongus.
 
I'm curious why it's EV trained but it's evs are not maxed, is there a reason for that? Also irked we can't change the Korean name but oh well. Always wanted a shiny Amoongus.
It probably is the same Amoonguss spread that was used for the Korean championships. I couldn’t tell you what those EVs accomplish though. My guess is that it needed 236 HP and 116 SpD EVs with the Sassy nature to survive some specific special attacks with the leftover EVs going toward defense.
 
Just getting started w/ competitive Pokemon and am starting by building a BSS team for the new meta. I am working on a Ferrothorn and when I check Pikalytics I'm seeing Impish nature w/ either 52 or 44 invested in speed (last season data) as the two most popular. Looking at Home data for the first few days of the meta I am seeing Brave and Relaxed as the top 2 natures I'm assuming those are also 0IV speed. I am not planning a trick room team so was thinking of going impish but I wasn't sure if w/e Pokemon the 52 or 44 speed were intended to counter are ones that ended up banned or what the best nature and IV/EVs for a Ferrothorn would be going into this meta. Thanks!
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
Just getting started w/ competitive Pokemon and am starting by building a BSS team for the new meta. I am working on a Ferrothorn and when I check Pikalytics I'm seeing Impish nature w/ either 52 or 44 invested in speed (last season data) as the two most popular. Looking at Home data for the first few days of the meta I am seeing Brave and Relaxed as the top 2 natures I'm assuming those are also 0IV speed. I am not planning a trick room team so was thinking of going impish but I wasn't sure if w/e Pokemon the 52 or 44 speed were intended to counter are ones that ended up banned or what the best nature and IV/EVs for a Ferrothorn would be going into this meta. Thanks!
I said this on discord already but: what is very misleading about Pikalytics "EV usage stats" is that

1. 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe, 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe are counted as "different spreads" so the actually common spreads may not rise to the top.

2. It actually lists the PS EV usage data, because no such data exists at Pokemon Home.

3. PS BSS is quite different for multiple reasons from cartridge BSS. You cannot play for timer-stalling tactics for one, but more importantly the ladder is quite small so the ladder is very much about beating (or counterteaming) the 3-4 ppl you play continuously.*

3-1. The above point in combination with 1 means that a single person can realistically skew the usage EV data, because 2 different people may have different speed creep / dump points and those would count as totally different spreads, but a single person with the same team is likely using the same EVs.

Impish spread likely comes from the Iron Defense + Body Press set. 45 speed raw stat is minspeed Alolan Marowak and you can outspeed and use Knock Off on it.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...speed-tiers-updated-with-ioa-dlc-wip.3669197/

use this resource here:

But the thing is, Alolan Marowak shouldn't be running minspeed anyways. It's kind of a big trap to always say min speed on Trick Room setters. Against fat slow Pokemon where the - speed minimum nature actually lets you underspeed, you are not going to use Trick Room against anyways because they beat you. Realistically, the most it actually gets used as is justifying speed creep to beat opposing Ferrothorn with Iron Defense / Body Press.

I wouldn't take those "common EVs" very seriously at all. If it doesn't make much sense, then it probably doesn't make much sense. PS usage stats* are too easily skewed by a single person spamming with such a small ladder. In general - not just on Pikalytics but in life in general - it's good to think exactly where your data comes from, because garbage in, means garbage out. Pokemon Home doesn't list everyone's EV spreads, so it can't be coming from Home usage, even though it's listed under that tab.

*PS usage stats for BSS - of course this doesn't apply to bigger ladders like OU or VGC2020, for example.
 
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What are the pros and cons for each of the Urshifu forms? In what situations is each one better than the other one?
 

Psynergy

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Both Urshifu forms can realistically use most of the same sets equally well (Sash Counter, Band, Scarf), which is probably unsurprising, but the advantages of each come down to what the different typings offer, as well as what Surging Strikes/Aqua Jet provide vs Wicked Blow/Sucker Punch.

Surging Strikes makes Rapid Strike better against dealing with Focus Sash users, notably Diggersby, and Gengar but that requires Scarf Urshifu which will often be disabled by Cursed Body afterwards (shoutouts multi-hit). Water also hits more relevant threats for super-effective damage than Dark does, namely Charizard, Rhyperior, Volcarona, and Rotom-Heat, alongside the aforementioned Diggersby. Meanwhile Dark STAB is mostly hitting Gengar and Aegislash (and Reuniclus but that's less common), though both are eating a Wisp from Gengar regardless unless Scarfed, and even then Surging Strikes is more threatening since Gengar is often running Focus Sash. Neutrally I'd say both types are about similar in this meta though, lots of Water resists and Dark resists in this metagame.

Wicked Blow on the other hand isn't punished so hard by Rocky Helmet or Iron Barbs the same way Surging Strikes is. Sucker Punch is also obviously a stronger priority than Aqua Jet even if it's a more conditional move, which is a slight edge on Sash Counter sets for Single Strike. Dark also complements the fact that Ghost-types are immune to Counter better than Water does. There's also less competition for good offensive Dark-types compared to good Water-types that can make it slightly easier to put Single Strike on some teams, though there's nothing wrong with running Rapid Strike alongside another Water like Primarina either.

Rapid Strike is also slightly better for Dynamax sets though, which is probably the biggest trait that puts Rapid Strike slightly ahead of Single Strike overall. Water/Fighting is a better typing for Weakness Policy due to the larger number of weakness, but also the larger number of resistances as well as not having a x4 weakness to anything unlike Single Strike. Rapid Strike can also choose to run regular Dynamax to set rain with Max Geyser for further damage output, giving it added flexibility that Single Strike doesn't get since Max Darkness does nothing for it.

In the end Rapid Strike is slightly better overall but both are very good and the choice will often just come down to what your team wants from Urshifu.
 
Team i made around steel beam klefki and Diggersby, got top 24 with it.
View attachment 281650
I actually just bred a klefki to use for my BSS 6 team. Finally getting back into it after stepping away for a couple seasons. I've also never used a rental code and want to breed my own teams. Is there a way to check the EV spreads through rental codes? If not, could you explain your EV spread on klefki and do you blindly start with it every time or are there specific team comps you wouldn't start with Klef? Thank you in advance.
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
I actually just bred a klefki to use for my BSS 6 team. Finally getting back into it after stepping away for a couple seasons. I've also never used a rental code and want to breed my own teams. Is there a way to check the EV spreads through rental codes? If not, could you explain your EV spread on klefki and do you blindly start with it every time or are there specific team comps you wouldn't start with Klef? Thank you in advance.
You can check your stats and work backwards from there. On that team, it is 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid. I think a spread along those lines makes sense on Klefki because you want to minimize the turns Klefki actually spends active on the field, which in turn maximizes the number of turns the Screens are available to the rest of your teammates. With the Priority screens and good defensive typing, it's not easy to OHKO Klefki through its screen even without investment, so it'll still get both screens up anyway.

The maximum damage on Steel Beam is pretty nice, and the speed is also nice to kill itself before any opposing Max moves, so it denies things like Airstream from getting speed boosts. I think Modest with that set might be better for squeezing as much damage out of Steel Beam, a personal opinion, unless there's a specific reason for Timid that I'm not seeing right now.
 

LJDarkrai

.Baril
You can check your stats and work backwards from there. On that team, it is 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid. I think a spread along those lines makes sense on Klefki because you want to minimize the turns Klefki actually spends active on the field, which in turn maximizes the number of turns the Screens are available to the rest of your teammates. With the Priority screens and good defensive typing, it's not easy to OHKO Klefki through its screen even without investment, so it'll still get both screens up anyway.

The maximum damage on Steel Beam is pretty nice, and the speed is also nice to kill itself before any opposing Max moves, so it denies things like Airstream from getting speed boosts. I think Modest with that set might be better for squeezing as much damage out of Steel Beam, a personal opinion, unless there's a specific reason for Timid that I'm not seeing right now.
This is exactly the reason i decided to use an offensive klefki, the timid nature is to outspeed Adamant Diggersby and/or Mamoswine and break their possibly Focus Sash with Steel Beam after i set up my reflect. I usually start with klefki when i feel like i can win right away with diggersby after getting screen up and a layer of spikes, but sometimes i use rotom-heat as a fast pivot lead.

I also do not like to lead with klefki when i am facing Rhyperior since i faced a lot of brick break Rhyperiors recently. The "screens mirror match" is also something i try to avoid and i prefer to lead with scarf trick Rotom-Heat since it has a better matchup against opposing klefkis, A-ninetales and grimsnarls.
 

Psynergy

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That's a loaded question that might lean out of the scope of this thread, but to answer the question anyway, the "consensus" is probably both yes and no. This isn't that different from other mechanics, some people liked Z-Moves/Megas/Gems but other people dislike them (I like Megas but hate Z-Moves, Gems are fun but Dragon Gem Draco Meteor will make a lot of VGC players sad). Dynamax definitely has a more imposing presence than those though, which probably results in stronger opinions than in the past.

It's a mostly manageable mechanic with counterplay in the form of broken item Focus Sash (with Counter or status moves), Mimikyu Disguise, Yawn pressure, and Protect usage or fast Substitute users to stall out Dynamax turns. "You can use it too" is also a legitimate argument even if many people say it as a meme (similar to "broken checks broken" which is also unironically valid), since a well-timed counter-Dynamax can put you ahead in some matchups. Of course the reverse can also be true, some otherwise favorable matchups become bad if the opponent gets a turn of Dynamax boosts first. Full-on turn 1 Dynamax sweeps aren't as common as they seem though, usually those are the result of bad brings (often preventable but not always), or just poor teambuilding. It doesn't mean they don't still happen though, as is the nature of 3v3.

However, there's no denying that some Pokemon become extremely dumb with Dynamax. Cinderace, Series 6 Dracozolt, and many Airstreamers really (there's a lot of those now). If you ask me personally Max Airstream is the primary issue with regards to Dynamax and if it was nerfed like Max Ooze/Knuckle it would be less controversial. Mold Breaker 160 BP Max Moves for the Galar starters was also a mistake though, or at least giving it to Cinderace was.

Beyond whether it's a broken mechanic or not though, some people simply do not like playing with it. The mechanic has a very dominant presence on the metagame inherently, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (obviously a major mechanic should be prominent), but some people simply don't like the juggernaut-like presence it imposes. For some people, those broken aspects are enough to make the game less enjoyable, but other people enjoy the metagame with it or at least tolerate its presence.
 
Not really a question that has an easy answer. Personally I dislike it to the point where it was a large part of the reason I quit playing Gen 8 BSS, at least until recently where I have been dabbling a little into the Crowned Tundra metagame. I still dislike it for a multitude of reasons, some which are covered above by Psynergy and others that are not. This is just my personal opinion and is completely subjective, it's hard to make an overall judgement.

I think regardless at this point, when you are talking about the community, the community itself is molded to suit the metagame to an extent and therefore I would imagine if you were to poll the community that they would be more tolerant than you would expect. Several people did not like Z-Moves in USUM for a multitude of reasons so quit and you ended up with a community more tolerant to Z-moves after the dust settles. The same I imagine has happened with Dynamax and the current community as you see those who are most against Dynamax fade away into obscurity or just relax in chats without actually playing BSS.

To put it very simply, people generally prefer to play metas they find fun even though BSS has always been a hive of masochists.
 
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I'm currently not having fun with so many legendaries in allowed in the current singles game. I pride myself in building my teams from scratch and having to catch all of these legendaries for myself and potentially with the right natures (to not waste even more resources) has been tough. I still haven't found Pheromosa!


Have people been having the same troubles?
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
I'm currently not having fun with so many legendaries in allowed in the current singles game. I pride myself in building my teams from scratch and having to catch all of these legendaries for myself and potentially with the right natures (to not waste even more resources) has been tough. I still haven't found Pheromosa!


Have people been having the same troubles?
Trying to be a penny-pincher in the game makes 0 sense. They give out 1200 BP Every season! for crying out loud. I had 3000 BP leftover remaining in Ultra Sun and Moon, and I'm never going to use them. If you start playing the ladder now, you're also going to have 4000 BP left over with nothing to do with them, too! A new game WILL come out in the next year or the year after that. And you won't be able to transfer any of your items or BP out of Sword and Shield into the new game. So why bother trying to squeeze every inch of "efficiency" from items? The most important resource is your time. And you are trading items and BP for time efficiency. Resetting for natures is like spending 6 hours to save 50 BP. Not worth.


Edu talks about his experience preparing teams without using giveaways / RNG / hacks and building his team on cart on his own. Most of his time sink was spent on resetting for 0 Attack on special attacking legendaries, a 1/48 odds, or 1/24 odds in case of Pokemon like Tapu Fini. And yeah, if you're trying to reset for all these, the game is pretty dumb and you'll need to pour in a lot of time to reset for them. But preparing 5-6 Legendary Pokemon is quite quick if you're willing to let go of 0 Attack IVs. And frankly. if you're not competing for VGC circuit or trying to get a high score / peak the ladder, I really don't see the point of painstakingly resetting for 0 Attack IVs on special attackers. We honestly just need a 0 IV bottle cap and we can basically change anything, and probably the best we're gonna get for getting competitive pokemon, short of letting us import Pokepaste into our cartridge games.

Feel free to move both posts into orange island.
 

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