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1_TrickPhony

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When can we expect the BSS analyses to return? I found them quite useful.
I've been doing the bulk of them and honestly I'm quite busy atm to do more than a couple here and there. Marilli is the other person who did a good chunk of these. Hopefully someone else can step up in the meantime, otherwise we might need to wait for Thanksgiving holiday break for me to have time freed up.
 
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I was about to consider Landorus-I for my BSS, I think he will pretty bonkers with Gravity set since I can fry Celesteela and Metal Birds. But I found out Gravity is a transfer only moves, there's nothing I can do right? Or there are other sets worth using?
 

Kiwi

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I was about to consider Landorus-I for my BSS, I think he will pretty bonkers with Gravity set since I can fry Celesteela and Metal Birds. But I found out Gravity is a transfer only moves, there's nothing I can do right? Or there are other sets worth using?
-Landorus-Therian's move Gravity is not available in generation 8.
- Landorus's move Gravity is not available in generation 8.
Unfortunately here there isn't anything you can do with giving Landorus gravity but there is definitely still potential sets you can use. You can run a variety of sets depending on your team. However based on the current tiering list being made, Landorus-Therian is much more effective as well as what I have seen in my analysis of battles. It is currently in S tier and is just overall better with more sets to use. Not sure on this set but it could be okay:
Landorus-Therian @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fly
However you could definitely set gravity with some other Pokemon although I don't think there are many that can do so, but I believe in the current meta considering you want to use Landorus-I it still may be a bad idea. Why so? Landorus-I is in C+ tier as you can see, with many major threats on top that are found on many teams and can clearly take it out between some swap on gravity or such. Also with that there isn't many reliable and good sets that provide it with an effective play against other teams. I highly recommend using Landorus-T over Landorus base- I am assuming a major idea is that it has a higher speed which as an idea, you can set up that speed with max airstream and get the same advantage that you would get with. Including the fact it is not exactly as powerful as Landorus-T there too. Mons like Pheromosa or Mimikyu can easily stop any setup with one Pheromosa's ice type moves of both special and physical and the fact that gravity would take a turn to set up, ultimately making it easy to counter and defeat. I hope this explains why you such a setup may not be optimal and why rather Landorus-T may be a better choice, hopefully the set helps too.
 
SnorkleDove
Thanks for the insight, for the personal reason of course its OU ban. I want to have LO Sheer Force set. it has more power unboosted:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

But Lando I has more coverage with Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic etc. would it make Incarnate has its own merit? I'm thinking this set:

Landorus-Incarnate @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast / Psychic
- Fly (for max airstream)

As because I originally want to use Gravity, would a Gravity support from other Pokemon would suffice?
 
SnorkleDove
Thanks for the insight, for the personal reason of course its OU ban. I want to have LO Sheer Force set. it has more power unboosted:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

But Lando I has more coverage with Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic etc. would it make Incarnate has its own merit? I'm thinking this set:

Landorus-Incarnate @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast / Psychic
- Fly (for max airstream)

As because I originally want to use Gravity, would a Gravity support from other Pokemon would suffice?
To be fair there’s this:

Landorus Therian @ Life Orb with a Jolly nature Earthquake vs 252 HP Mew: 56.1 - 66.5% damage

Sheer Force Landorus @ Life Orb with a Timid nature Earth Power vs 252 HP Mew: 56.9 - 66.8% damage

I know that Sheer Force Landorus has Sheer Force which negates LO recoil, but when you compare a Pokémon with Life Orb to a similar Pokémon without Life Orb, the Pokémon with Life Orb is almost always going to have more power lol.

Anyway while Sheer Force Landorus does have its perks, unfortunately for it a lot of other Pokémon came out that have positive matchups against it. Good Pokémon like Salamence, Dragonite, and Celesteela all can switch into most of Landorus’ moves while Landorus really can’t hit them hard. Pheromosa also outspeed and KOs with Ice Beam, and Glastrier also can take a hit and KO in return as well. You’ll need to pair Landorus with something that can do well against those (and other similar) threats if you want Landorus to have success
 
I'm thinking to use Regieleki and Regidrago.

For the first I want to use Electro Ball. Since that damages using speed, is it necessary to max speed even though it's so fast it ordinarily wouldn't need to? I was thinking Naive and just a little investment for some things, not max.

For the latter, what nature should it be? I really like AV for an item and I have Draco Meteor/ Breaking Swipe/ Fire Fang/ Body Slam. What nature makes sense? It's mixed, not slow, and I don't want to take away from Def which is low already. I have Adamant but was thinking go Serious? Neutral natures are so weird though.
 
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cant say

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I'm thinking to use Regieleki and Regidrago.

For the first I want to use Electro Ball. Since that damages using speed, is it necessary to max speed even though it's so fast it ordinarily wouldn't need to? I was thinking Naive and just a little investment for some things, not max.

For the latter, what nature should it be? I really like AV for an item and I have Draco Meteor/ Breaking Swipe/ Fire Fang/ Body Slam. What nature makes sense? It's mixed, not slow, and I don't want to take away from Def which is low already. I have Adamant but was thinking go Serious? Neutral natures are so weird though.
Both of those sets sound really bad.

Electro Ball is over-hyped. You won’t actually be getting the 120-150BP against anything that isn’t paralysed despite the huge natural speed stat. Porygon2 is the only relevant target that you get 120BP against.

Regieleki only has one niche and that is being arguably the best dual screens setter in the format. Ground-types are too common and its coverage too slim to be an actual offensive threat. You might be thinking “oh but I could run screens + Thunder Wave + Electro Ball” but Eleki is so frail that it often only gets 2 turns in and those are better spent getting both screens up. Not to mention it’s just better to run a better electric move and either Hyper Beam or Explosion as the last move to get chip on Ground-type leads.

AV Drago doesn’t make any sense to me. What is it trying to do with that? Just use Choice Scarf or Specs, or Dragon Dance + Outrage and do damage.
 
Oh, ok, Screens then, Yes I was looking at it's movepool and it's quite shallow. My first thought was Bounce for Max Airstream to power up Electro Ball but I'll go w/ what you think instead. Do you prefer Thunder Cage or Bolt? Or even Rising Voltage, I have Koko? And how much if any Spe investment?

Ok, if you don't think AV is a good item for it. I'll try DD that goes w. screens too. As you might expect I'm running Regice, should I go back to the old AV? Kinda liking Lefties+Amnesia, it does benefit from no Toxic TM and ofc hurts boosted Regice on the special side...could baton pass w. Scolipede too.
 

ethan06

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If you have Koko then Rising Voltage is definitely best. The insane damage under Terrain is worth the damage trade-off from Thunderbolt if you can set it yourself (definitely isn't otherwise lol). Then other moves you should consider are Volt Switch (pivoting is nice and allows you to deal really respectable damage without risking damage on what is a fairly frail mon...), Extreme Speed (yeah it's fast but this format has a lot of Sucker Punch and it's nice for knocking off Sashes from Urshifu formes and Cinderace and other such stuff) and Explosion (this synergises super nicely with a Screens set for getting your frail sweepers in safely with minimal loss of turns). cant say's post is really good but I disagree with the assertion that Regieleki isn't a good offensive threat due to the prevalence of Ground-types. Maybe that's only because I've been messing around with Trick Ring Target (surprisingly legit) but I've found that Eleki's STAB moves have a really oppressive effect on the meta for anything that isn't a Ground-type due to Electric's general lack of other resistances, so its presence on your team can have the effect of forcing your opponents to bring their Landorus or their Garchomp, Excadrill etc. at Team Preview specifically to cover it. These Pokemon are obviously really great and difficult to truly counter in their own rights, but partners like Mamoswine or Tapu Fini or Celesteela can really capitalise on them consistently with Regieleki drawing them into every matchup.

Ok, if you don't think AV is a good item for it. I'll try DD that goes w. screens too. As you might expect I'm running Regice, should I go back to the old AV? Kinda liking Lefties+Amnesia, it does benefit from no Toxic TM and ofc hurts boosted Regice on the special side...could baton pass w. Scolipede too.
I mainly wanted to get on my soapbox about Regieleki because I love it and its power and speed and its little bouncy dance it does, but a word of advice: If you want to be creative with your teambuilding, avoid defensive thinking. In a format this fast and offensive, and especially with Dynamax available, defensive play is a losing game for everything but the best walls that can cover everything by virtue of pure longevity (and those are all names we already know ... Porygon2, Toxapex, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon). By their very nature, defensive Pokemon have to be reactive to the threats that people actually use; chucking an AV on a Regice purely because it gets a beefy SpDef stat out of it is not going to cut it because what is that big number actually going to do for you? How's that number actually going to win you games? I can respect trying to win with your favourites - the whole appeal of Pokemon to me is the balance of creativity and competitiveness that no other franchise can really offer - but you need to temper that with the reality that you're playing against other people with their own competitive mindsets, and they're going to use whatever works best to win. That's what a metagame is; people using the best and easiest to use things to farm wins against other people. Weaponise your creativity against that predictability and come up with something that can actually beat the top threats rather than piling stats onto whatever mon you fancy and hoping it'll work. Sorry for rambling, it's late here and I've had a long week :psywoke: Hope at least some of this word salad was helpful!
 
You're probably right about AV on Regice...has AV in general fallen out of favor? That'd make sense w/ how you describe the metagame. But if not is it more tuned toward mons w. high Def to be well-rounded or high SpD to be ridiculous on one side? Or just attackers so they have at least one good defense?
 

ethan06

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You're probably right about AV on Regice...has AV in general fallen out of favor? That'd make sense w/ how you describe the metagame. But if not is it more tuned toward mons w. high Def to be well-rounded or high SpD to be ridiculous on one side? Or just attackers so they have at least one good defense?
Assault Vest is a bad item for this format imo because it forces defensive Pokemon to act offensively, and offensive Pokemon to act defensively. It may feel like a good call because it's honestly really clever design (and in longer formats like OU it does have a niche!) but it's not because of the nature of 3v3. Offensive Pokemon in this format need to focus entirely on their offensive prowess to function best, and, by the same token, defensive Pokemon need to be as bulky and supportive as they possibly can to support their more offensive teammates. With the high power that this metagame's top threats have, your defensive Pokemon need heavy investment to take all the ridiculous hits that they need to take to last long enough to be useful to the sweeprs in the back - this leaves little to no room for investment in their often already mediocre offenses. It comes back to the question I asked in my earlier post: Yes, you've made it so that your Pokemon can take a hit, but what are they taking it for? What's the point of taking four hits from a boosted Nasty Plot sweeper versus three when you hit like wet paper in return and are literally blocked from using disruptive support moves? Far better to trade that in for a less restrictive defensive item, like Leftovers, or a Berry, or Eviolite in some cases, or a Terrain Seed... all of which offer similar defensive benefits without the counter-intuitive restriction. By the same token, a defensive item on an offensive Pokemon is a waste of time when you could be maximising their damage potential with a Choice item or a Life Orb (or a Focus Sash, which in BSS is often better than any other defensive measure you can devise), and could even be missing out on important KOs by not doing so. In my mind, it comes down to having a clarity of purpose in what you want your mons to achieve in any given game, especially in an environment like this where the state of play forces you to do so - Assault Vest would have a place in a more balanced meta where stronger slower Pokemon are able to thrive by taking hits and dishing them back, but we have Dynamax, and no Pokemon is good enough at both to have that luxury. All the slow mons that could benefit from Assault Vest are either on Trick Room teams with more offensive spreads, or they're not being used at all. It's unfortunate, but everything is too strong for an item that encourages jacks of all trades and masters of none :/

tl;dr: metagame too strong. be either speed demon offensive or supportive defense, no space for tanks when you wanna be winning games as fast as possible before the other guy does
 
You helped a lot, can you also give me your opinion on Regidrago. First if it's viable(worse stats, bar speed and SpA by a bit, than Guzzlord,) and then if I should go Adamant, Naughty, or Serious w/ a mixed DD set.
 
In online singles and BSS Showdown, why are hazards not as prominent as they once were? Who is the best hazard remover in the current singles meta? What has replaced hazards if they are indeed not used as much as they once were?
 
I don't know about the first and last questions but hazard removal has never been good in BSS.
What is the reason for a dedicated hazard remover not being good in BSS? Can anyone corroborate what Omastar68 is saying with an example of why it has never been good?
 
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Could Suicune still be considered part of a stall team in the current format? If not or if so, what would be an optimal build to use it to it's best potential?
 
Rapid Spin got a large buff a while ago, but it's still only 50 BP and normal. The Speed buff does not neccesarily help some possible spinners like Pheromosa and Regieleki, and those 2 have no bulk to take a turn cleaning. Not many possible spinners. Blastoise needs it's coverage w/ Shell Smash, and Excadrill is better off setting rocks itself. The rest are not that viable.

Defog doesn't do enough besides hazards, just clears terrain which isn't much more common than hazards and may be innocuous like Misty often is, and -1 evasion which is too hard to utilize.

Also, Stealth Rock isn't a given on teams like in 6v6 it pretty much is, and (Toxic) Spikes are not used whatsoever, essentially. So on average you're able to spin/defog half as much as 6v6, and never anything but rocks.
 

Kiwi

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In online singles and BSS Showdown, why are hazards not as prominent as they once were? Who is the best hazard remover in the current singles meta? What has replaced hazards if they are indeed not used as much as they once were?
Well actually, compared to the previous season of season 6, hazard setting has become a lot better and more used to deal wth current threats of the meta (season 7). Right now, stealth rocks is the most popular setup option that I recommend you use depending on your current team:
-Swampert
-Landorus-Therian
-Hippowdon
Now selecting one of these depends on your team and how it's going to be used. Using stealth rocks can deteriorate quite a lot of threats to your team like Cinderace/Flying Types and frail. However the reason hazard removers are an ineffective strategy is that BSS doesn't work a lot with switching. As there is only three Pokemon on your team, switching is not really the most used thing as it would be in other formats such as OU or UU containing 6 mons and a lot more switching. Because BSS is only 3 mons; Switching is just not as used. Also lets say you do switch to use one of the moves, you're pretty much wasting a turn and allowing the opponent to use some kind of move that can allow them to wipe your team such as max knuckle or airstream depending, trick room etc. Just really isn't a good idea, but you can definitely still set hazards, preferably stealth rocks.
 
What is the reason for a dedicated hazard remover not being good in BSS? Can anyone corroborate what Omastar68 is saying with an example of why it has never been good?
Also, in addition to what’s been said, BSS battles really don’t last that long usually. Sometimes it simply isn’t advantageous to set Stealth Rocks up if it’s going to give your opponent a ‘free’ turn to use a setup move or a move that does heavy damage. Also as has been said before, switching isn’t as much of a thing in BSS as it is in 6v6, as you’re not going to have the perfect answer to everything (seemingly) in 3v3 as you are in 6v6 battles
 

marilli

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Stealth Rock is definitely worth it in BSS, and it is definitely worth trying to keep your field clear of Stealth Rocks, just as much it is valuable to use it in certain matchups. Try playing vs SR + SubSeed Celesteela a few times and say SR isn't that big a deal in BSS because there isn't much switching. I feel this is a poor generalization.

However, it is worth noting that Defog and Rapid spin are passive ways of dealing with hazards. Against offensive or tempo-oriented teams, you will not get to Defog or Rapid Spin without getting into a Yawn situation, and if you switch out, that means they get to set it right back up again on the switch. Or, you might take irreparable damage as you use Rapid Spin. As an example, Excadrill is a very poor spinner because it has no matchup against all the common SR setters, which means that they need to wait until all the hazard chips have been spread for them to switch out of their SR user and finally you get to remove their stealth rocks. Sure, rocks are off now, but at what cost? Or in case of the SR + Sub Seed Celesteela example, you might be able to bring in your Mandibuzz and Defog your SR in front of Celesteela, but now that has given it a chance to start the subseed cycle and start spreading chip damage on your team. You have lessened your damage by not taking sr damage on top of it, but this isn't a good place to be.

Instead, there are better ways of keeping hazards off the field: proactive play. In 6v6, it's wishful thinking to assume your Dracovish and a single Taunt user can deny Hippowdon from setting up SR entirely. However, in BSS, Dracovish and Taunt user might actually have a legitimate chance to delay the SR being set until it is too late for them to benefit off of it. Using aggression and matchup advantage can let you keep hazard control without having to dedicate a whole team slot and a move slot to bring a remover and having to spend the turn removing them. This denies your opponent from getting ahead in team preview, and then making progress on the Defog turn anyways.
 

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How come Landorus I is banned in OU but on BSS its only a C rank viability?
While I wouldn't put too much weight in the current rankings (there are plenty we'll be changing hopefully in the near future), OU Viability does not translate 1 to 1 with BSS Viability. There are plenty of mons that are strong in OU but mediocre in BSS, or worse. The reverse is also true of course, Mimikyu and Celesteela are pretty broken here but OU doesn't seem to like those two as much as we do. Stuff like Snorlax and Lapras also tend to be way better here than in Smogon metas, though that leans into other stuff like items that are stronger here too (Assault Vest, Sitrus Berry, in the case of other Pokemon there's also the coveted Focus Sash slot).

Sheer Force is a dead ability slot with Dynamax and its Max Move options are pretty mediocre for a special attacker of its kind (no Special Airstream option is pretty bad), and Landorus-Therian is far superior which further increases the opportunity cost of using Landorus-I in the first place. It's not exactly a terrible Pokemon or anything, there's just not a lot of reason to recommend it at the moment over other faster special attackers (ex. Nihilego), and of course there's better special Airstreamers like Kantonian Zapdos and Galarian Moltres.

For future reference though, feel free to ask future viability questions in the VR thread itself. Don't be afraid to question something there!
 
That seems correct as to the point of the question...but are you sure you mean to write AV is better here? Since I was just educated on how AV is bad in BSS, and iirc ethan06 said it is bettr in 6v6, not worse. If you did mean to put AV as bettr here, I'm just wondering who's right. I like AV and it'd be nice if it was good but I'm inclined to agree it isn't.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
That seems correct as to the point of the question...but are you sure you mean to write AV is better here? Since I was just educated on how AV is bad in BSS, and iirc ethan06 said it is bettr in 6v6, not worse. If you did mean to put AV as bettr here, I'm just wondering who's right. I like AV and it'd be nice if it was good but I'm inclined to agree it isn't.
might have been a misunderstanding on your part. AV is really good because you dont need the longevity that comes from leftovers or HDB, due to the explosiveness of dynamax and the less swapping around that comes from 3v3 formats. AV allows Dynamax sweepers to defeat even type counters, and is very valuable especially for a format that only allows 1 item of each
 
That seems correct as to the point of the question...but are you sure you mean to write AV is better here? Since I was just educated on how AV is bad in BSS, and iirc ethan06 said it is bettr in 6v6, not worse. If you did mean to put AV as bettr here, I'm just wondering who's right. I like AV and it'd be nice if it was good but I'm inclined to agree it isn't.
Yeah, I was thinking about what was said about AV and how you have to be really focused on offense or defense and... that just doesn't seem to be true. The most obvious example of this right now, imo, is SubSeed Celesteela. Its ridiculous the number of things it can get away with both offensively and defensively.

I think the main point to get across from the prior conversation is that if you're going to run something like AV (on Cinderace, for example,) you need a good reason to do so beyond just cranking up a raw stat. Pokemon is a game of margins and thresholds, so buffing stats is of little consequence if you aren't hitting benchmarks; it means almost nothing if you go from taking 150% damage from something to 100% damage because you're dead either way. But going from 135% damage to 90%? That's the difference between getting OHKO'd or not. Those are the kinds of things you want to think about when putting together sets.
 

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