For the short discussion following this comment about the viability of Hail: I tried the 88-wins-Machamp-team again in the subway, and with some variation I got to 196 wins first try. I don't know about later generations, but at least there, Hail is viable. One crucial part of it is hitting evasive Snow Veil mons.Hello,
here I want to present a team based on an idea I tried in the subway. While it breezed through the majority of battles, it had huge troubles in certain common situations. However looking some gens further ahead seems to solve all problems by the unique qualities of Kartana (and other improvements)!
The basic idea was to make Hail work, which I am sure some of you tried. From another team (Ursaring, Whimsicott, Hydreigon/Nidoking, Metagross, 174 wins) I found that Prankster-Tailwind + turn 1 Protect worked well. In that team I had Nidoking in the back, which is super strong (slightly better even than LO-Landorus). In Hail of course it gets access to Blizzard, and it did a fantastic job in my hail team. This team lead with Abomasnow + Whimsi. The fourth slot however needed to cover a variety of things. It should be rather bulky, be not too bad against waters, and on the other hand good against ice. But foremost, it needs 100% accuracy against snow veil mons – every Froslass brings you to the brink of losing. And in black/white I could not come up with such a mon. The only thing that has the accuracy AND hits ice mons hard I came up with is Machamp with no guard. I tried it and it did a good job hitting evasive ice-mons, but was too fragile. That is, especially in comparison to Metagross which occupied that spot and had everything one could desire, for the exception of missing ice mons in hail. I gave up and I don’t think the problem can be solved in this generation. But two gens ahead it’s a completely different story!Vanilluxe @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze Dry
- Hail
- Protect
Tornadus @ Flynium-Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: * HP / 252 SpA / * Spe
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Taunt
- Protect
Nidoking @ Life-Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 20SDef / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earthpower
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Protect (Flamethrower)
Kartana @ Expertbelt / Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike
- Protect (Knock Off)The BW-version with Machamp made it to 88. Which is not very good, but with the huge weaknesses covered by Kartana in the SM-version I think it can go way higher. Also Vanilluxe gets Snow Warning, which may be better than Abomasnow, and Tornadus which I do not have access to, should work better.
Hailwind and the benefits from both BW and SM-version:
The general play is to Protect with the hail-bringer and set up Tailwind. By doing it this way, once I attack with Blizzards, the enemy row already got a round of hail, meaning sashes/sturdy is removed, which is very nice. In fact, if not both mons resist ice, the battle goes quickly in my favor from here. Due to the sash, often more than one Blizzard can be launched, and in the back Nidoking is just waiting. (Double) Blizzard and hail are wearing enemies down rapidly. Steel and fire types are almost all OHKOed by Nidoking, and Meta was responsible for ice types. This team is so good in cleaning up.
However as soon as there are enemy ice-teams with snow veil, the team starts stumbling.
Improvements in SM:
First of all, there is Kartana. It fits just too well to the idea and team. The main point being Smart Strike, which removes all evasive ice-types and therefore solving the biggest problem easily. The type synergy is superb, offensively as well as defensively. The stuff that resists ice – namely water, ice and steel (Nidoking deals with fire) – is hit very hard by it and is walled to some degree by it (especially if you play it with assault vest). Coming from the backrow it should easily snack Beast Boosts against Blizzard/Hail-weakened enemies. Also Kartana can do well against Sand-teams.
Aside from missing ice-types, Metagross was huge in the BW-version. Kartana seems to be able to roughly keep up with that, while fulfilling the crucial role of hitting ice-types and having some other bonuses. (I am not sure about the set though, I think Expert Belt + max SDef might be good. I will not figure it out, since I will never play it.)
However this is not the only advantage over the BW-version. Vanilluxe should be much better than Abomasnow, because: It is faster, outspeeding everything in Tailwind with modest nature. Also it has freeze dry and way better stats. Giga Drain, which restored the sash, and made Abomasnow being able to stay around against water/ice mons for long, was quite nice though. And Focus Sash in general is a perfect item for a blizzarding ice mon in hail.
Additionally, there is Tornadus, which at least for me is not available in BW and which should do a better job than Whimsi.
This somehow was an anticlimactic writeup. To sum this up: This version solves a frequently occurring problem of an otherwise well functioning team while bringing some other advantages on top!(Feel free to try it!)I consider this team to be an antihax-team. In Hail, every single team-member has a strong, 100% accurate move. Sashes/Stury get removed by Hail, also the team has 2 spread moves. There is so much glue in this team. In the BW-version sometimes protecting for Hail damage to overcome ranges proved handy. And where Blizzard does not get through, there is the sheer power of Nidoking and Kartana with SE attacks.
I think this team could easily make over 100 wins, because (strange sounding reasoning incoming): The BW Metagross version only made it hardly to 50 wins, because always activated Snow Veil is too bad. But the BW Machamp version got to 88, and it felt completely shaky and way worse than the Metagross version. Kartana fulfilling the role of a not missing Metagross may multiply the chances of coming farer.
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Battle Tree Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Eisenherz
- Start date
For the short discussion following this comment about the viability of Hail: I tried the 88-wins-Machamp-team again in the subway, and with some variation I got to 196 wins first try. I don't know about later generations, but at least there, Hail is viable. One crucial part of it is hitting evasive Snow Veil mons.
Hello,
This team presented here is an AI Multi Battle version of my double fight team (post #4,419 and #4,464). The team looks as follows:
From me: Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
DVs: all maximized except for physical attack, which should be minimized.
EVs: 60 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Ability: Prankster
Timid Nature
- Beat Up
- Moonblast
- Tailwind
- Encore
From me: Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 196 HP / 44 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Overcoat
Hasty Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab (not Iron Head anymore)
- Protect
From the AI (in German Julius and meanwhile I know the English name, it is Abel, thanks to Coeur7): Terrakion @ King’s Rock
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Justified
Jolly Nature
- Bulldoze
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Sacred Sword
From the AI (in German Julius and meanwhile I know the English name, it is Abel, thanks to Coeur7): Electivire @ Expert Belt
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Ability: Motor Drive
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
The first two starting pokemons are Whimsicott and Terrakion.
With this team I got 93 consecutive wins. The losing battle was fight 94 (code: HAVW-WWWW-WWXF-7AD3).
The Whimsicott allows a relatively good speed control for many cases by its Prankster Tailwind plus the Prankster Encore, which can be used against most of the Trick Room users. Furthermore, the Prankster Encore can be useful against a lot of boosters, which are not having the Dark type. The speed of Whimsicott is made so, that it is one point faster than the Terrakion, so that Terrakion can have the attack boost from Beat Up due to Justified before it attacks. The Focus Sash protects Whimsicott, so that it stays often more than one round in the battle, which is particularly crucial for creating situations, in that Encore can be utilized. Also the priority attacks from a Whimsicott with one HP have still a good chance to be activated before it gets possibly defeated, since it has a good speed value.
The Whimsicott used here was initially made for a Jolly Cobalion with Assault Vest as partner. With its HP investment instead of full speed investment it must be considered that it is with its priority attacks slower than a Mega-Metagross with its Bullet Punch, which is anyway a pokemon, which is hard to handle. But still I believe, that on average the HP investment is more valuable, since it avoids regularly kills by Earthquakes from the partner and gives regularly a small advantage.
Controlling the speed is often helpful, especially since Kommo-o can have then its offensive and boosting Z-move before it gets attacked, which means that it can have a big advantage from its improved defensive values and finally as well from its improved offensive strengths. Drain Punch allows sometimes to be longer alive, which is in Multi Battles very relevant, since if two pokemons go down on the same side, there is no back-up anymore. If Whimsicott is still there with one HP, its last turn is dependent on the opponents often a Tailwind, to make the setup for Kommo-o more safe and especially Electivire much more effective. The Terrakion does not have that regularly an advantage from Tailwind, but nevertheless it can benefit from it.
The second partner pokemon is the Electivire with an Expert Belt, which is generally a useful item. This pokemon has only one Ground weakness and access to Wild Charge and Fire Punch. Personally, I am not a big fan of elemental type attacks as Fire, Grass, Water and Electric, since there are from time to time abilities negating them and I had some negative experiences with it, even if elemental attacks can be in general of course quite handy. Here I had anyway no possibility to avoid this and I can be probably happy, that I got such a nice AI partner with a Terrakion with fitting speed plus a good strong attacker as back-up. Also, it took really long, to get Julius as AI partner.
The team works somehow nice, but it is not that easy or clear how to deal with enemies properly, since you never know, what your partner is doing. This makes it already difficult and then there were for example a lot of Earthquakes dealing damage only to me. As well it happened, that the Kommo-o was flinching due to earthquakes with the King’s Rock. One of the other Terrakion sets without King’s Rock might be theoretically better and there might be some better pokemons than Electivire possible, but you would need to have it, which is quite hard to achieve. The team can have also some problems with status effects and luck-based stuff, because there is no Tapu Fini and no reliable strategy plan to defeat opponents, before you are affected. Round about neutral damage OHKOs at pokemons with 100 HP base and 100 defense base using Rock Slide from Terrakion are possible after two boosting rounds, but not after one (as spread move there is missing a bit damage usually, since this Terrakion is Jolly and not Adamant, if you hit only one pokemon it is fine). So overall, some luck is needed to come fine through the battles.
Regards to all of you and here is a video, I produced from my streak.
This team presented here is an AI Multi Battle version of my double fight team (post #4,419 and #4,464). The team looks as follows:
From me: Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
DVs: all maximized except for physical attack, which should be minimized.
EVs: 60 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Ability: Prankster
Timid Nature
- Beat Up
- Moonblast
- Tailwind
- Encore
From me: Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 196 HP / 44 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Overcoat
Hasty Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab (not Iron Head anymore)
- Protect
From the AI (in German Julius and meanwhile I know the English name, it is Abel, thanks to Coeur7): Terrakion @ King’s Rock
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Justified
Jolly Nature
- Bulldoze
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Sacred Sword
From the AI (in German Julius and meanwhile I know the English name, it is Abel, thanks to Coeur7): Electivire @ Expert Belt
DVs: all maximized
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Ability: Motor Drive
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
The first two starting pokemons are Whimsicott and Terrakion.
With this team I got 93 consecutive wins. The losing battle was fight 94 (code: HAVW-WWWW-WWXF-7AD3).
The Whimsicott allows a relatively good speed control for many cases by its Prankster Tailwind plus the Prankster Encore, which can be used against most of the Trick Room users. Furthermore, the Prankster Encore can be useful against a lot of boosters, which are not having the Dark type. The speed of Whimsicott is made so, that it is one point faster than the Terrakion, so that Terrakion can have the attack boost from Beat Up due to Justified before it attacks. The Focus Sash protects Whimsicott, so that it stays often more than one round in the battle, which is particularly crucial for creating situations, in that Encore can be utilized. Also the priority attacks from a Whimsicott with one HP have still a good chance to be activated before it gets possibly defeated, since it has a good speed value.
The Whimsicott used here was initially made for a Jolly Cobalion with Assault Vest as partner. With its HP investment instead of full speed investment it must be considered that it is with its priority attacks slower than a Mega-Metagross with its Bullet Punch, which is anyway a pokemon, which is hard to handle. But still I believe, that on average the HP investment is more valuable, since it avoids regularly kills by Earthquakes from the partner and gives regularly a small advantage.
Controlling the speed is often helpful, especially since Kommo-o can have then its offensive and boosting Z-move before it gets attacked, which means that it can have a big advantage from its improved defensive values and finally as well from its improved offensive strengths. Drain Punch allows sometimes to be longer alive, which is in Multi Battles very relevant, since if two pokemons go down on the same side, there is no back-up anymore. If Whimsicott is still there with one HP, its last turn is dependent on the opponents often a Tailwind, to make the setup for Kommo-o more safe and especially Electivire much more effective. The Terrakion does not have that regularly an advantage from Tailwind, but nevertheless it can benefit from it.
The second partner pokemon is the Electivire with an Expert Belt, which is generally a useful item. This pokemon has only one Ground weakness and access to Wild Charge and Fire Punch. Personally, I am not a big fan of elemental type attacks as Fire, Grass, Water and Electric, since there are from time to time abilities negating them and I had some negative experiences with it, even if elemental attacks can be in general of course quite handy. Here I had anyway no possibility to avoid this and I can be probably happy, that I got such a nice AI partner with a Terrakion with fitting speed plus a good strong attacker as back-up. Also, it took really long, to get Julius as AI partner.
The team works somehow nice, but it is not that easy or clear how to deal with enemies properly, since you never know, what your partner is doing. This makes it already difficult and then there were for example a lot of Earthquakes dealing damage only to me. As well it happened, that the Kommo-o was flinching due to earthquakes with the King’s Rock. One of the other Terrakion sets without King’s Rock might be theoretically better and there might be some better pokemons than Electivire possible, but you would need to have it, which is quite hard to achieve. The team can have also some problems with status effects and luck-based stuff, because there is no Tapu Fini and no reliable strategy plan to defeat opponents, before you are affected. Round about neutral damage OHKOs at pokemons with 100 HP base and 100 defense base using Rock Slide from Terrakion are possible after two boosting rounds, but not after one (as spread move there is missing a bit damage usually, since this Terrakion is Jolly and not Adamant, if you hit only one pokemon it is fine). So overall, some luck is needed to come fine through the battles.
Regards to all of you and here is a video, I produced from my streak.
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German "Julius" is Gentleman Abel in the English version.
I thought I had been the only one to come up with Drain Punch Kommo-o, but apparently it's been on your mind as well. That move is, in my opinion, the best Fighting-type move for Kommo-o. However, investing EVs into HP instead of a stat that gets raised by Soulblaze (and having almost no SpA!) is a waste of EVs (also since a lower HP-to-Def/SpD ratio is better with Drain Punch); I recommend 4 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with a Mild nature (Hasty is rather useless unless you regularly fail to set Tailwind). Poison Jab is viable, but I still believe Flamethrower is better since it snipes Mega Mawile at +1.
I thought I had been the only one to come up with Drain Punch Kommo-o, but apparently it's been on your mind as well. That move is, in my opinion, the best Fighting-type move for Kommo-o. However, investing EVs into HP instead of a stat that gets raised by Soulblaze (and having almost no SpA!) is a waste of EVs (also since a lower HP-to-Def/SpD ratio is better with Drain Punch); I recommend 4 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with a Mild nature (Hasty is rather useless unless you regularly fail to set Tailwind). Poison Jab is viable, but I still believe Flamethrower is better since it snipes Mega Mawile at +1.
Yeah, thank you for the comment, it might be that the Kommo-o is not really optimized for this team. And definitively there are some problems with Mega-Mawile, I mean, here I even lost in a fight against it, but this is also true in general, even normal Mawiles are not nice to handle.
Anyway, I can explain, why I have exactly this Kommo-o and which scenarios I considered with it to shine with this mainly HP and Speed EV spread. So I believe, the points are at least not completely wasted and in fight 64 I just stayed alive with my HP investment with Kommo-o as last pokemon.
Initially, I had Kommo-o my double fight team, where I had Focus Sash Cryogonal with Frost Breath and Assault Vest Tauros with Anger Point for the start. So, it included the same boosting a partner with Earthquake and Rock Slide idea as here (but it was nice that Earthquake was not affecting Cryogonal and it was not nice that Frost breath misses that frequently). Also, I had Kommo-o and my slightly slower Mimikyu with Psych Up to copy the stats as back up pokemons. So, mainly the focus was keeping Kommo-o alive as long as possible, ideally without using Clanging Scales to pass the boosts to Mimikyu, which had no Z-move for boosting, since the Z-power was used for Kommo-o. Playing this team without Tailwind, I figured out that there are still to many OHKOs against Kommo-o, sometimes even after its boost and there were especially problems with some really annoying Choice Scarf pokemons having strong attacks as Brave Bird (for example Skarmory before boosting, whithout having myself any electric or fire attack or Braviary and Intimidate Staraptor after the boosting). This I could prevent by the HP investment, while the Speed investment ensured, that Kommo-o is after boosting without Tailwind outspeeding even the fastest not scarfed opponent pokemon Mega-Alakazam, which is otherwise with its psychic type even a strong counter. Later on, in my teams with the Tailwind option, I realized, that the HP investment somehow still made sense, since Kommo-o is due to Drain Punch relatively often at full health and it also can tank some super effective critical hits and as well fairy attacks sometimes. Also, the overall health maximizes here best via HP investment, especially since Kommo-o has already good defensive stats by itself, but of course this is not maximizing the healing effect at the same time. For doing at least a bit for the healing and because I am preferring Drain Punch and Poison Jab before Clanging Scales, I put my last remained points in the physical attack instead of special attack.
Anyway, I can explain, why I have exactly this Kommo-o and which scenarios I considered with it to shine with this mainly HP and Speed EV spread. So I believe, the points are at least not completely wasted and in fight 64 I just stayed alive with my HP investment with Kommo-o as last pokemon.
Initially, I had Kommo-o my double fight team, where I had Focus Sash Cryogonal with Frost Breath and Assault Vest Tauros with Anger Point for the start. So, it included the same boosting a partner with Earthquake and Rock Slide idea as here (but it was nice that Earthquake was not affecting Cryogonal and it was not nice that Frost breath misses that frequently). Also, I had Kommo-o and my slightly slower Mimikyu with Psych Up to copy the stats as back up pokemons. So, mainly the focus was keeping Kommo-o alive as long as possible, ideally without using Clanging Scales to pass the boosts to Mimikyu, which had no Z-move for boosting, since the Z-power was used for Kommo-o. Playing this team without Tailwind, I figured out that there are still to many OHKOs against Kommo-o, sometimes even after its boost and there were especially problems with some really annoying Choice Scarf pokemons having strong attacks as Brave Bird (for example Skarmory before boosting, whithout having myself any electric or fire attack or Braviary and Intimidate Staraptor after the boosting). This I could prevent by the HP investment, while the Speed investment ensured, that Kommo-o is after boosting without Tailwind outspeeding even the fastest not scarfed opponent pokemon Mega-Alakazam, which is otherwise with its psychic type even a strong counter. Later on, in my teams with the Tailwind option, I realized, that the HP investment somehow still made sense, since Kommo-o is due to Drain Punch relatively often at full health and it also can tank some super effective critical hits and as well fairy attacks sometimes. Also, the overall health maximizes here best via HP investment, especially since Kommo-o has already good defensive stats by itself, but of course this is not maximizing the healing effect at the same time. For doing at least a bit for the healing and because I am preferring Drain Punch and Poison Jab before Clanging Scales, I put my last remained points in the physical attack instead of special attack.
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It's true that investing HP is slightly better for Kommo-o than Def or SpD when it's not using Drain Punch unless you have a specific survival in mind or are also running Intimidate. For Drain Punch, Def/SpD are better. I suppose it depends on your Drain Punch usage.
Not investing SpA on Kommo-o is pretty bad, though. It must clang at full power to win. If anything, cut Speed, although it sucks not to outspeed Garchomp3 in Tailwind if you go below 172 EVs (neutral nature). It didn't matter in your loss, of course.
Quick rundown of bulk / PJab / Thrower at +1 vs. Fairies (at +0 you lose and can only Protect): I find that the three most dangerous Fairies are Primarina (kills you anyway regardless of bulk if set3), Mawile (bulk is useless) and Mimikyu (kills you anyway, although you might survive the first PR with 196 HP), and Poison Jab only helps against Primarina4 but Flamethrower snipes Mawile34 both (though it's 92% min at 244+ SpA so requires chip, but it's usually harder to kill Mawile from full health than Primarina) as well as Ribombee34, another potentially dangerous Fairy, which is more likely to be killed by 244+ Flamethrower than PJab (set4 guaranteed, set3 97% min; PJab is shaky on set4, allowing it to QD and -- outside of TW -- kill you afterwards regardless of HP investment). Things like Whimsicott and Shiinotic don't usually matter even if they will survive the +1 Thrower because they don't OHKO back at +1 (unless it's Whimsi4 Twinkle Tackle). Togekiss4, Carbink4, Sylveon3, Florges3 and Aromatisse3 are also mons you lose to anyway regardless of investment and moveslot 3. You only have a 50% shot at killing Florges4 and it definitely KOs back, although I guess 50% is better than nothing if your life depends on it. Poison Jab does kill Gardevoir3, but that set won't OHKO even 4 / 4 / 4 Kommo-o. Alolan Ninetales takes more damage from 244+ Flamethrower than Poison Jab (only slightly more if set2); neither move KOs, but Tales doesn't OHKO back (though there is Hypnosis or Blizzard freeze from set1). . You should win at +1 against unevolved Altaria3 and Gardevoir4 since it won't click GImpact / Hyper Beam immediately and PJab 2HKOs. Comfey is a win with PJab I guess.
Against the (quite rare) non-Fairy-type users of DGleam / Moonblast / PR, the bulk and move 3 add nothing, you get 2HKO'd regardless (for instance, Gengar3 deals 58% to +1 4 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o and 50% to 196 HP / 4 SpD; Uxie4 fails to 2HKO 4/4 82% of the time and should actually prefer Psychic, though I don't know how the AI weighs spread moves). The exception is Tsareena, where +1 Thrower is again 97% min against set4, 51% min against set3 (AV), and +1 PJab is 70%, and the 196 HP would ensure you survive PR while you might not with 4 / 4 -- you are probably best off with Thrower.
You can kill Carbink and Ninetales-A and do 93% to Disguise-broken Mimikyu with Flash Cannon. Yeah. It's probably the worst move to use.
After some mass calcing, I think if you don't care about outspeeding Whimsicott at +0 without a Tailwind advantage, 52 HP / 4- Def / 244+ SpA / 4 SpD / 204 Speed Kommo-o may be best to use since it avoids getting non-crit killed by Carbink4 and Shiinotic34 in Trick Room at +1 and full health (and by Tsareena3 95% of the time) while having optimal Clanging Power and still outspeeding Scarf Manectric in TW.I'll change my own Kommo-o to this. edit: after reviewing speed tiers, it doesn't seem worth it to lose out on Tsareena4, Crobat4 and Braviary3 at +1 with no TW up, which can now kill you if they luck out.
If nothing else, your Kommo-o is missing 4 EVs. If you put them in SpD, that cuts Alakazam4's chance to kill +1 196 HP Kommo-o with Specs Psychic by half, to 12.5%, while also ensuring that +0 Drampa4 Draco Meteor is not an OHKO. If you put them in Def, nothing of note changes.
tldr: 244+ Thrower is better against Mawile34, Ribombee34, and Tsareena4, PJab is better against Primarina4, Whimiscott4, Altaria3 (if you're psychic and know it's set3, since set4 might Sing as punishment), Gardevoir4 and generally if you can get the fairy chipped. Flash Cannon is better against Carbink, Ninetales-A and Mimikyu, but it won't usually matter much vs. Mimikyu. 196 HP doesn't help much with Fairy users compared to 52 HP, except against Primarina4. Pretty much all the most dangerous fairies win the 1v1 regardless (including Prima4 since you're only winning by virtue of the spread penalty normally); the rest of the team must be able to handle them.
I've never found a pokemon/team where copying the omniboost with Psych Up seemed optimal as opposed to supporting Kommo-o with something that kills things (particularly the problem fairies) immediately. 244+ Soulblaze / +1 Scales is a powerful attack, but it usually leaves targets at like 75%.
Not investing SpA on Kommo-o is pretty bad, though. It must clang at full power to win. If anything, cut Speed, although it sucks not to outspeed Garchomp3 in Tailwind if you go below 172 EVs (neutral nature). It didn't matter in your loss, of course.
Quick rundown of bulk / PJab / Thrower at +1 vs. Fairies (at +0 you lose and can only Protect): I find that the three most dangerous Fairies are Primarina (kills you anyway regardless of bulk if set3), Mawile (bulk is useless) and Mimikyu (kills you anyway, although you might survive the first PR with 196 HP), and Poison Jab only helps against Primarina4 but Flamethrower snipes Mawile34 both (though it's 92% min at 244+ SpA so requires chip, but it's usually harder to kill Mawile from full health than Primarina) as well as Ribombee34, another potentially dangerous Fairy, which is more likely to be killed by 244+ Flamethrower than PJab (set4 guaranteed, set3 97% min; PJab is shaky on set4, allowing it to QD and -- outside of TW -- kill you afterwards regardless of HP investment). Things like Whimsicott and Shiinotic don't usually matter even if they will survive the +1 Thrower because they don't OHKO back at +1 (unless it's Whimsi4 Twinkle Tackle). Togekiss4, Carbink4, Sylveon3, Florges3 and Aromatisse3 are also mons you lose to anyway regardless of investment and moveslot 3. You only have a 50% shot at killing Florges4 and it definitely KOs back, although I guess 50% is better than nothing if your life depends on it. Poison Jab does kill Gardevoir3, but that set won't OHKO even 4 / 4 / 4 Kommo-o. Alolan Ninetales takes more damage from 244+ Flamethrower than Poison Jab (only slightly more if set2); neither move KOs, but Tales doesn't OHKO back (though there is Hypnosis or Blizzard freeze from set1). . You should win at +1 against unevolved Altaria3 and Gardevoir4 since it won't click GImpact / Hyper Beam immediately and PJab 2HKOs. Comfey is a win with PJab I guess.
Against the (quite rare) non-Fairy-type users of DGleam / Moonblast / PR, the bulk and move 3 add nothing, you get 2HKO'd regardless (for instance, Gengar3 deals 58% to +1 4 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o and 50% to 196 HP / 4 SpD; Uxie4 fails to 2HKO 4/4 82% of the time and should actually prefer Psychic, though I don't know how the AI weighs spread moves). The exception is Tsareena, where +1 Thrower is again 97% min against set4, 51% min against set3 (AV), and +1 PJab is 70%, and the 196 HP would ensure you survive PR while you might not with 4 / 4 -- you are probably best off with Thrower.
You can kill Carbink and Ninetales-A and do 93% to Disguise-broken Mimikyu with Flash Cannon. Yeah. It's probably the worst move to use.
After some mass calcing, I think if you don't care about outspeeding Whimsicott at +0 without a Tailwind advantage, 52 HP / 4- Def / 244+ SpA / 4 SpD / 204 Speed Kommo-o may be best to use since it avoids getting non-crit killed by Carbink4 and Shiinotic34 in Trick Room at +1 and full health (and by Tsareena3 95% of the time) while having optimal Clanging Power and still outspeeding Scarf Manectric in TW.
If nothing else, your Kommo-o is missing 4 EVs. If you put them in SpD, that cuts Alakazam4's chance to kill +1 196 HP Kommo-o with Specs Psychic by half, to 12.5%, while also ensuring that +0 Drampa4 Draco Meteor is not an OHKO. If you put them in Def, nothing of note changes.
tldr: 244+ Thrower is better against Mawile34, Ribombee34, and Tsareena4, PJab is better against Primarina4, Whimiscott4, Altaria3 (if you're psychic and know it's set3, since set4 might Sing as punishment), Gardevoir4 and generally if you can get the fairy chipped. Flash Cannon is better against Carbink, Ninetales-A and Mimikyu, but it won't usually matter much vs. Mimikyu. 196 HP doesn't help much with Fairy users compared to 52 HP, except against Primarina4. Pretty much all the most dangerous fairies win the 1v1 regardless (including Prima4 since you're only winning by virtue of the spread penalty normally); the rest of the team must be able to handle them.
I've never found a pokemon/team where copying the omniboost with Psych Up seemed optimal as opposed to supporting Kommo-o with something that kills things (particularly the problem fairies) immediately. 244+ Soulblaze / +1 Scales is a powerful attack, but it usually leaves targets at like 75%.
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Wow, this is a really nice and deep analysis. Actually, I think I can in general just agree to your points.
However, I had one double fight team performing the mentioned Psych Up strategy with that I got my record. The corresponding video is in post #4,464 and from that team I imported my Kommo-o simply to my Multi battle team. Mimikyu with Psych up makes somehow sense in that double fight team, because it is relatively likely that Mimikyu can copy a strong boost of Terrakion, Kommo-o or an enemy pokemon, which can as well be forced to repeat a boost attack by priority Encore. It happened during my streak, even if it was not too often, that Kommo-o made its Z-move and was then just barely alive and afterwards Mimikyu was coming in as last pokemon in still quite critical situations. When this happened, I thought, okay, I am still happy with the HP investment from my earlier considerations. If under such conditions my Kommo-o would have been down, very likely I would have lost earlier, since obviously Kommo-o would have been defeated, but additionally Mimikyu would have been not that strong as well. It has no access to any Z-move, Psych Up would be probably do nothing resulting in no boost option plus meaning one move would be completely wasted then. Nevertheless, it is for sure also true, that some situations could have been resolved differently, for example by different plays or immediately bringing down some opponents more with a stronger Z-move from Kommo-o. Anyway, after all, I think my double fight team worked quite well for me even if I was sometimes just lucky.
However, I had one double fight team performing the mentioned Psych Up strategy with that I got my record. The corresponding video is in post #4,464 and from that team I imported my Kommo-o simply to my Multi battle team. Mimikyu with Psych up makes somehow sense in that double fight team, because it is relatively likely that Mimikyu can copy a strong boost of Terrakion, Kommo-o or an enemy pokemon, which can as well be forced to repeat a boost attack by priority Encore. It happened during my streak, even if it was not too often, that Kommo-o made its Z-move and was then just barely alive and afterwards Mimikyu was coming in as last pokemon in still quite critical situations. When this happened, I thought, okay, I am still happy with the HP investment from my earlier considerations. If under such conditions my Kommo-o would have been down, very likely I would have lost earlier, since obviously Kommo-o would have been defeated, but additionally Mimikyu would have been not that strong as well. It has no access to any Z-move, Psych Up would be probably do nothing resulting in no boost option plus meaning one move would be completely wasted then. Nevertheless, it is for sure also true, that some situations could have been resolved differently, for example by different plays or immediately bringing down some opponents more with a stronger Z-move from Kommo-o. Anyway, after all, I think my double fight team worked quite well for me even if I was sometimes just lucky.
Here's another ongoing 1000 streak in USUM Doubles (been a while, actually). I had tried Cottonee/Xurkitree/Kommo-o/Kangaskhan before (in 2019, I think), but shelved it after winning 400 because it didn't seem that solid. However, it turns out that the "intuition" of using (level 1) Cottonee instead of a bulky priority Tailwind setter was wrong. Here's Team Neo-4K / Perfect Circle (Repto wants me to call it "XIKK", undoubtedly for great justice) -- note that it is all PKHeX'd, so not a leaderboard streak:
Illumise (F) @ Focus Sash
EVs: 244 HP / 124 Def / 140 SpD
Ability: Prankster
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Tailwind
- Fake Tears
- Encore
- Protect
Xurkitree @ Air Balloon
EVs: 164 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 92 Spe
Ability: Beast Boost
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Tail Glow
- Protect
Kommo-o (F) @ Kommonium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Bulletproof
Mild Nature (+SpA, -Def)
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Flash Cannon
- Protect
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Ability: Scrappy
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Seismic Toss
- Sucker Punch
Like Tapu Koko, Xurkitree is a fantastic Pokémon, fulfilling a similar role as an Electric/Fairy attacker. Not investing SpA is a trap (note that Primarina34 is already a 15/16 roll to OHKO), since you really need every point; I think I've found the pretty much optimal EV spread. Scarf Manectric, Garchomp, Entei and Terrakion outrun this in Tailwind, but Scarf Landorus-I is outsped (which is good, since it 2HKOs you with Focus Blast). Tail Glow is the most skillful button on the team; Xurk cannot always get away with boosting, but if you see e.g. Uxie lead, it's the right choice instead of the "standard" Protect. It synergizes well with Encore and Soulblaze double KOs, too. Unlike Specs Koko, +0 Xurkitree cannot OHKO Thundurus4; play carefully (Prankster Taunt danger). Beast Boost is a great ability, particularly on a lead, even though sleep immunity is very occasionally missed. Another point in Xurkitree's favor over anything else I could have run is that it cannot be paralyzed and attacks with a Fairy-type spread move (Fairy is necessary for opposing Kommo-o, and generally a good offensive type). Electroweb and Volt Switch are no longer needed with Illumise setting TW with priority and Xurk's low T1 speed respectively.
Priority Encore is the best move in the game. Aroma Veil, Mental Herb, Dazzling/Queenly Majesty and Z-moves get around it, but that's it; in every other situation, it makes the opponent lose at least two, and usually three, tempi for clicking a status move. Fake Tears makes Illumise contribute "chip damage" (Kangaskhan cannot use it, but this doesn't matter much) that amounts to about the same as having Kartana attack. However, you can no longer OHKO Aromatisse4 with the leads (all other TR setters generally aren't problems due to Encore; Oranguru and Jellicent die to FT Tbolt -- edit: actually Oranguru takes 85-100%, so maybe it is a problem; note that Dusknoir and Slowking may use their Z-move and then switch out).
I flamed Flash Cannon in my last post, but with Fake Tears and no Kartana to ease the Xio matchup, it's the right call. For the record, Mega Mawile takes 84-99% at -2 after Soulblaze. Mimikyu takes lethal damage at -2 /+0 after Disguise is broken. Drain Punch (with a Mild nature to enable it) improves Kommo-o at the cost of losing the Regice OHKO; I generally Tail Glow in front of Regice lead to mitigate this problem.
Illumise has a better defensive typing than Whimsicott (which gets to run the same set otherwise) and notably lures Rock moves, which Kommo-o may capitalize on every once in a while. Full bulk helps, as does the Sash (which is not antisynergic; super-effective moves can OHKO Illumise, and as noted, you actually want to avoid it being KO'd). 1 more point in SpD to make sure Porygons boost Attack.
As with 4K, Kangaskhan is the glue that allows me to survive when speed control isn't present, and has a good matchup against pretty much anything when it's dangerous for Kommo-o to be sent in (AV Tsareena comes to mind, even though that does have HJK; the point is to shut it off as a threat to Kommo-o, though). Seismic Toss is the superior move vis-à-vis Drain Punch/Low Kick/Power-Up Punch, no contest. Adamant 252+ Double-Edge is the way, no need for Speed or weirdly specific survival calcs.
Other teams: I had also tried Talonflame/Mega Mawile (HP, Speed; Iron Head / Sucker Punch / Swords Dance / Protect)/Kommo-o/Specs Primarina but lost at 402 to Aino setting TR + Psychic Terrain, disabling the crucial Sucker Punch. Furthermore, I tried Talonflame/PuP + Return Mega Kang/Kommo-o/Tapu Koko, but lost at 453; Kang just seems better from the backline on Kommo-o teams. Really bad team ideas included Specs Magnezone (~250 wins) and Sub LO Aegislash (~160).
Illumise (F) @ Focus SashEVs: 244 HP / 124 Def / 140 SpD
Ability: Prankster
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Tailwind
- Fake Tears
- Encore
- Protect
Xurkitree @ Air BalloonEVs: 164 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 92 Spe
Ability: Beast Boost
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Tail Glow
- Protect
Kommo-o (F) @ Kommonium ZEVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Bulletproof
Mild Nature (+SpA, -Def)
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Flash Cannon
- Protect
Kangaskhan (F) @ KangaskhaniteEVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Ability: Scrappy
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Seismic Toss
- Sucker Punch
Like Tapu Koko, Xurkitree is a fantastic Pokémon, fulfilling a similar role as an Electric/Fairy attacker. Not investing SpA is a trap (note that Primarina34 is already a 15/16 roll to OHKO), since you really need every point; I think I've found the pretty much optimal EV spread. Scarf Manectric, Garchomp, Entei and Terrakion outrun this in Tailwind, but Scarf Landorus-I is outsped (which is good, since it 2HKOs you with Focus Blast). Tail Glow is the most skillful button on the team; Xurk cannot always get away with boosting, but if you see e.g. Uxie lead, it's the right choice instead of the "standard" Protect. It synergizes well with Encore and Soulblaze double KOs, too. Unlike Specs Koko, +0 Xurkitree cannot OHKO Thundurus4; play carefully (Prankster Taunt danger). Beast Boost is a great ability, particularly on a lead, even though sleep immunity is very occasionally missed. Another point in Xurkitree's favor over anything else I could have run is that it cannot be paralyzed and attacks with a Fairy-type spread move (Fairy is necessary for opposing Kommo-o, and generally a good offensive type). Electroweb and Volt Switch are no longer needed with Illumise setting TW with priority and Xurk's low T1 speed respectively.
Priority Encore is the best move in the game. Aroma Veil, Mental Herb, Dazzling/Queenly Majesty and Z-moves get around it, but that's it; in every other situation, it makes the opponent lose at least two, and usually three, tempi for clicking a status move. Fake Tears makes Illumise contribute "chip damage" (Kangaskhan cannot use it, but this doesn't matter much) that amounts to about the same as having Kartana attack. However, you can no longer OHKO Aromatisse4 with the leads (all other TR setters generally aren't problems due to Encore; Oranguru and Jellicent die to FT Tbolt -- edit: actually Oranguru takes 85-100%, so maybe it is a problem; note that Dusknoir and Slowking may use their Z-move and then switch out).
I flamed Flash Cannon in my last post, but with Fake Tears and no Kartana to ease the Xio matchup, it's the right call. For the record, Mega Mawile takes 84-99% at -2 after Soulblaze. Mimikyu takes lethal damage at -2 /+0 after Disguise is broken. Drain Punch (with a Mild nature to enable it) improves Kommo-o at the cost of losing the Regice OHKO; I generally Tail Glow in front of Regice lead to mitigate this problem.
Illumise has a better defensive typing than Whimsicott (which gets to run the same set otherwise) and notably lures Rock moves, which Kommo-o may capitalize on every once in a while. Full bulk helps, as does the Sash (which is not antisynergic; super-effective moves can OHKO Illumise, and as noted, you actually want to avoid it being KO'd). 1 more point in SpD to make sure Porygons boost Attack.
As with 4K, Kangaskhan is the glue that allows me to survive when speed control isn't present, and has a good matchup against pretty much anything when it's dangerous for Kommo-o to be sent in (AV Tsareena comes to mind, even though that does have HJK; the point is to shut it off as a threat to Kommo-o, though). Seismic Toss is the superior move vis-à-vis Drain Punch/Low Kick/Power-Up Punch, no contest. Adamant 252+ Double-Edge is the way, no need for Speed or weirdly specific survival calcs.
Other teams: I had also tried Talonflame/Mega Mawile (HP, Speed; Iron Head / Sucker Punch / Swords Dance / Protect)/Kommo-o/Specs Primarina but lost at 402 to Aino setting TR + Psychic Terrain, disabling the crucial Sucker Punch. Furthermore, I tried Talonflame/PuP + Return Mega Kang/Kommo-o/Tapu Koko, but lost at 453; Kang just seems better from the backline on Kommo-o teams. Really bad team ideas included Specs Magnezone (~250 wins) and Sub LO Aegislash (~160).
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After seeing the last team from Coeur7, I thought, that is cool and copied it partially. So finally, I have now a Mild Kommo-o with 244 SpA as well, which is almost same including the move Flash Cannon. It is really good in this kind of team and in general, without HP investment it cannot tank Mega-Absol’s Play Rough that good, but that is okay. Illumise is for me Modest and has Silver Wind instead of protect to have one attacking move. Similarly, I tried out different Megas and Ultra Beasts, which can benefit from the support of Illumise to get their boosts.
From priority Encore I am anyway a big fan and played it a lot, especially but not only against status moves and moves as Fake Out or First Impression. Anyway, I have also Dark type pokemons, Magic Bounce and no PP left in my mind to come around priority Encore.
For me, also Helping Hand worked as possibly interesting variation to Fake Tears, even if the bonus factor is with 1.5 smaller. It is very fast, even faster than Fake Out. Kommo-o can achieve both sided OHKOs with neutral damage for round about 100 HP base and 100 SpD base and all partners can benefit from Helping Hand. Especially it was nice to use as well physical Ultra Beasts in that case, for example a Careful Buzzwole with Assault Vest, which has Fell Stinger, nice offensive recovery options and can have a strong overall defensive. Just the typing is not that great and it has some similar weaknesses to Kommo-o, but it was including Tailwind somehow manageable, so that Buzzwole was at least not permanently to slow.
In the future, I plan to investigate an Illumise with Flatter together with a Tapu Fini to boost. Thereby a Bold Illumise can be used with a Misty Seed, defensive investment and Infestation. In earlier versions I utilized Sableye instead, which is probably an option, which is beaten by Illumise, I think.
From priority Encore I am anyway a big fan and played it a lot, especially but not only against status moves and moves as Fake Out or First Impression. Anyway, I have also Dark type pokemons, Magic Bounce and no PP left in my mind to come around priority Encore.
For me, also Helping Hand worked as possibly interesting variation to Fake Tears, even if the bonus factor is with 1.5 smaller. It is very fast, even faster than Fake Out. Kommo-o can achieve both sided OHKOs with neutral damage for round about 100 HP base and 100 SpD base and all partners can benefit from Helping Hand. Especially it was nice to use as well physical Ultra Beasts in that case, for example a Careful Buzzwole with Assault Vest, which has Fell Stinger, nice offensive recovery options and can have a strong overall defensive. Just the typing is not that great and it has some similar weaknesses to Kommo-o, but it was including Tailwind somehow manageable, so that Buzzwole was at least not permanently to slow.
In the future, I plan to investigate an Illumise with Flatter together with a Tapu Fini to boost. Thereby a Bold Illumise can be used with a Misty Seed, defensive investment and Infestation. In earlier versions I utilized Sableye instead, which is probably an option, which is beaten by Illumise, I think.
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I have no idea if anyone plays this anymore or if this would help anyone, but if noting else I’d just like to report a streak of 342 in Super Singles just to have it archived somewhere since it would be fun to personally look back on as it exceeded any expectations I had and I didn't expect to get any berries out of it. (lol)
Team
Gyarados (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Crunch
Aegislash@ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- King's Shield
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
Chansey (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
Bold Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
- Minimize
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Growl
(all of Chanseys moves PP maxed and Kings Shield on Aegislash)
I’d like to credit a bunch of individuals whom I took ideas from.
@ AnonymousRandom and @DLNarshen : For the Lead Mega Gyarados(Gyarados happens to be my favorite pokemon so I was happy to see him be able to work)-Aegislash-electric switch in core. It also seems a bit poetic that my loss happened to be at the exact same match as Anonymousrandom meaning we now share the highest(reported) lead Mega Gary streaks. (lol)
@ GG Unit : I got the Chansey from him that I used in the previous Gen 6 games. The Growl Chansey moveset that he paired with Aegislash and Salamence (who I figured was similar enough to Garados that it should be pretty fun.) I chose Chansey over Garchomp primarily just because I like it more as a pokemon, but I also figured Chansey could cover all the switchins for Gyarados that Garchomp does(electrics) while also covering essentially every other special attacker and status user on top of electrics as well. I also copied his moveset and EV spread for Aegislash that I ended up deciding on after reading a number of posts on the speed debate of Aegislash. Perfect IV + 4 to break speed ties just made the most sense and was also the simplest haha.
@ turskain : his calculator website (https://turskain.github.io/) I would have probably lost before Match 50 Lol.
My initial attempt at Super singles was with a team of Dragonite instead of Gyarados. Along with the same Aegislash and Chansey. I ended up losing at match 46 to my first all legendary trainer. a lead Terrakion that used my initial switching as a chance to get swords dances off and then he proceeded to sweep my team.
I would have never believed this team would have got as far as it did as I’m not exactly the best Singles player for battle facilities. Last Gen my highest streak was in the 160s while copying turksain I believe it was who had a 1000+ streak with Dragonite-Aegislash-Greninja. And that was with multiple attempts at using the team with some attempts barely clearing 50. With Sun and Moon I kept reading that the facilities were even more daunting with Z-moves, and Megas so my angus was peppered to say the least and I went in with little expectations.
Most of the matches go one of 4 ways in order of how likely they happened.
There are some exceptions where you make adjustments such as against things with Taunt where I would just get hits in here and there without setting up, but that was essentially how it would play out.
Gyarados is pretty much a worse Salamence, but I feel he does have some advantages. The type change when mega evolving really does come in handy. I would often do this against things such as Lead Terrakion(and I saw A LOT of Terrakion, he has to be one of the most common pokemon) where I would dragon dance and mega evolve on turn 1. I also ran into a lot of sword Dance Mimikyu who on paper looks like it could be particularly dangerous for a Salamence-Aegislash-Chansey core. Moldbreaker makes Mimikyu sharkfood. Also useful for Sturdy and Levitate mons. I also believe Gyarados results in quicker matches since its less setting up, roosting, and subsituting (although most matches were still quite lengthy).
I also have no regrets of the Chansey choice and moveset. If I used Garchomp or the timid one(with subsitute over growl, speed investment over spdef) I would have never made it as far as I did. I really loved the unlimited PP of growl and the sheer bulk and unkillableness that the one I used offered. They were both extremely valuable. Chansey could even straight up neuter most physical attackers lacking a fighting move if it was already set up. With Chansey you very rarely felt actual danger or urgency. The advantage in the Timid Chansey was extremely niche in comparison (outspeeding 1HKO users to set up a subitute, ). but that advantage wouldn't have really applied to me(explained a bit down in threats). This Chansey was essentially more noob friendly and worked better for me, but if your goal is the highest streak possible to account for every single possible threat that could pop up while leaving smaller margins of error(meaning you are better at this and less prone to making mistakes, which I myself am prone to making) I am not going to argue that the timid one isn't the best in that instance.
Some Threats
Swords Dance users: If your not careful these guys are always particularly dangerous, I think this goes for pretty much every team.
Azelf-3: Has Nasty Plot and Psychock, and a Focus Sash. Chansey gets automatically sent out against Lake Guardians unless someone else is already set up, and man these hurt if it gets a nasty plot or two even to Chansey who is pretty much indestructible to anything other than Swords Dancers and Physical fighting attacks.
OHKO users: My team has no subsitute, and thus any carrier of a One Hit KO move had the potential to end it. Especially….
Walrein-4: probably the most famous meme-mon of the battle facilities? I was literally shitting my pants in fear of this guy. I never once ran into him, but if I did it would have probably been the loss. The absolute best case against this thing would either be Gyarados out there already with 4+ dragaon dances(which happened almost never), or Aegislash out there with a swords dance(Walrein would still AT LEAST one attempt to end it). My plan if I ran into him as a lead was just to throw Chansey out there as a sacrifice hoping to waste some of his PP. Followed by Aegislash who would Kings shield, Swords dance, KingS Shield, Sacred Sword hoping to waste additional Sheer Cold PP or kill him. And Gyarados as a last resort hoping that Sheer Colds PP would be out by this stage and I could just dragon dance until I can 1HKO him. A large part of my streak was probably in part to never running into this thing a single time (I never ran into Walrein-3 either, not sure if they are just super rare or don’t appear in Ultra Sun). As said before I am pretty sure people were running Timid Chansey exclusively for this thing. And since I never actually ran into it, the advantage of having all that extra bulk was HUGE for me and I didn't have any repercussions in doing so. (lol)
Mega-Lopunny: I lost to this thing so I have to give it a mention.
The Loss
1. Gyarados vs Arcanine. I dragon dance. Arcanine uses Flair Blitz. Good
2. Gyarados kills Arcanine with Waterfall.
3. Probopass enters and Gyarados mega evolves for the earthquake KO (in case he has sturdy).
So far so good
4. Lopunny comes in.
(shit, he is faster than MegaGyarados+1.)
5. I switch to Aegislash not thinking he would die to high jump kick. This thing has Scrappy(can hit ghost types with normal/fighting, Lol fuck)
(At this point the game is loss. Kings shielding Lopunny or having unmegaevolved Gyarados would have been the only way to win without getting lucky on this thing missing.)
6. M-Gyaradoes comes in and is killed.
7. Chansey comes in. Brought to 14 hp by high jump kick. Use Minimize.
8. it finishes chansey off next turn with quick attack.
(GG)
I should have known since I made that same mistake in an earlier battle with Aegislash, (being unaware of the Mega Lopunnys ability and switching to it when it came in on Chansey), but I believe I was able to recover in that instance since I still had Gyarados in its base form that offered an Intimidate and a not very effective resistance to High Jump Kick. definetly a silly loss, a bit sad, but also looking forward to moving on and doing Doubles and Multis.
All in all this was my fondest streak looking back on after me and my brother managed 450+ wins in Multis on ORAS(also done using a Gyarados!) so I wanted to conclude it with a write up that maybe I could look at in the future and get a smile. as well as sharing for once because I've got so much helpful information from people in this thread as well as the Gen 6 Maison one. much more than just the people I shouted out.
Team
Gyarados (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Crunch
Aegislash@ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- King's Shield
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
Chansey (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
Bold Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
- Minimize
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Growl
(all of Chanseys moves PP maxed and Kings Shield on Aegislash)
I’d like to credit a bunch of individuals whom I took ideas from.
@ AnonymousRandom and @DLNarshen : For the Lead Mega Gyarados(Gyarados happens to be my favorite pokemon so I was happy to see him be able to work)-Aegislash-electric switch in core. It also seems a bit poetic that my loss happened to be at the exact same match as Anonymousrandom meaning we now share the highest(reported) lead Mega Gary streaks. (lol)
@ GG Unit : I got the Chansey from him that I used in the previous Gen 6 games. The Growl Chansey moveset that he paired with Aegislash and Salamence (who I figured was similar enough to Garados that it should be pretty fun.) I chose Chansey over Garchomp primarily just because I like it more as a pokemon, but I also figured Chansey could cover all the switchins for Gyarados that Garchomp does(electrics) while also covering essentially every other special attacker and status user on top of electrics as well. I also copied his moveset and EV spread for Aegislash that I ended up deciding on after reading a number of posts on the speed debate of Aegislash. Perfect IV + 4 to break speed ties just made the most sense and was also the simplest haha.
@ turskain : his calculator website (https://turskain.github.io/) I would have probably lost before Match 50 Lol.
My initial attempt at Super singles was with a team of Dragonite instead of Gyarados. Along with the same Aegislash and Chansey. I ended up losing at match 46 to my first all legendary trainer. a lead Terrakion that used my initial switching as a chance to get swords dances off and then he proceeded to sweep my team.
I would have never believed this team would have got as far as it did as I’m not exactly the best Singles player for battle facilities. Last Gen my highest streak was in the 160s while copying turksain I believe it was who had a 1000+ streak with Dragonite-Aegislash-Greninja. And that was with multiple attempts at using the team with some attempts barely clearing 50. With Sun and Moon I kept reading that the facilities were even more daunting with Z-moves, and Megas so my angus was peppered to say the least and I went in with little expectations.
Most of the matches go one of 4 ways in order of how likely they happened.
- Switch to Chansey who either walls something completely(Special attackers), absorbs Status or wastes its PP(has Rest/a recovery move or something like Curse/Dragon dance where it can outgrowl it). Set up Minimizes, Heal when appropriate, and then Seismic Toss it to death.
- Switch to Aegislash who sets up Swords Dances between kings shields. (mostly Physical attackers without earthquake)
- Switch back and forth between Aegislash and Gyarados against something with Earthquake to neuter it to -6 attack and destroying its PP. I had experience doing this with Dragonite, but with the Intimidate debuff hitting it every turn it just felt incredible.
- Gyarados sets up and sweeps.
There are some exceptions where you make adjustments such as against things with Taunt where I would just get hits in here and there without setting up, but that was essentially how it would play out.
Gyarados is pretty much a worse Salamence, but I feel he does have some advantages. The type change when mega evolving really does come in handy. I would often do this against things such as Lead Terrakion(and I saw A LOT of Terrakion, he has to be one of the most common pokemon) where I would dragon dance and mega evolve on turn 1. I also ran into a lot of sword Dance Mimikyu who on paper looks like it could be particularly dangerous for a Salamence-Aegislash-Chansey core. Moldbreaker makes Mimikyu sharkfood. Also useful for Sturdy and Levitate mons. I also believe Gyarados results in quicker matches since its less setting up, roosting, and subsituting (although most matches were still quite lengthy).
I also have no regrets of the Chansey choice and moveset. If I used Garchomp or the timid one(with subsitute over growl, speed investment over spdef) I would have never made it as far as I did. I really loved the unlimited PP of growl and the sheer bulk and unkillableness that the one I used offered. They were both extremely valuable. Chansey could even straight up neuter most physical attackers lacking a fighting move if it was already set up. With Chansey you very rarely felt actual danger or urgency. The advantage in the Timid Chansey was extremely niche in comparison (outspeeding 1HKO users to set up a subitute, ). but that advantage wouldn't have really applied to me(explained a bit down in threats). This Chansey was essentially more noob friendly and worked better for me, but if your goal is the highest streak possible to account for every single possible threat that could pop up while leaving smaller margins of error(meaning you are better at this and less prone to making mistakes, which I myself am prone to making) I am not going to argue that the timid one isn't the best in that instance.
Some Threats
Swords Dance users: If your not careful these guys are always particularly dangerous, I think this goes for pretty much every team.
Azelf-3: Has Nasty Plot and Psychock, and a Focus Sash. Chansey gets automatically sent out against Lake Guardians unless someone else is already set up, and man these hurt if it gets a nasty plot or two even to Chansey who is pretty much indestructible to anything other than Swords Dancers and Physical fighting attacks.
OHKO users: My team has no subsitute, and thus any carrier of a One Hit KO move had the potential to end it. Especially….
Walrein-4: probably the most famous meme-mon of the battle facilities? I was literally shitting my pants in fear of this guy. I never once ran into him, but if I did it would have probably been the loss. The absolute best case against this thing would either be Gyarados out there already with 4+ dragaon dances(which happened almost never), or Aegislash out there with a swords dance(Walrein would still AT LEAST one attempt to end it). My plan if I ran into him as a lead was just to throw Chansey out there as a sacrifice hoping to waste some of his PP. Followed by Aegislash who would Kings shield, Swords dance, KingS Shield, Sacred Sword hoping to waste additional Sheer Cold PP or kill him. And Gyarados as a last resort hoping that Sheer Colds PP would be out by this stage and I could just dragon dance until I can 1HKO him. A large part of my streak was probably in part to never running into this thing a single time (I never ran into Walrein-3 either, not sure if they are just super rare or don’t appear in Ultra Sun). As said before I am pretty sure people were running Timid Chansey exclusively for this thing. And since I never actually ran into it, the advantage of having all that extra bulk was HUGE for me and I didn't have any repercussions in doing so. (lol)
Mega-Lopunny: I lost to this thing so I have to give it a mention.
The Loss
1. Gyarados vs Arcanine. I dragon dance. Arcanine uses Flair Blitz. Good
2. Gyarados kills Arcanine with Waterfall.
3. Probopass enters and Gyarados mega evolves for the earthquake KO (in case he has sturdy).
So far so good
4. Lopunny comes in.
(shit, he is faster than MegaGyarados+1.)
5. I switch to Aegislash not thinking he would die to high jump kick. This thing has Scrappy(can hit ghost types with normal/fighting, Lol fuck)
(At this point the game is loss. Kings shielding Lopunny or having unmegaevolved Gyarados would have been the only way to win without getting lucky on this thing missing.)
6. M-Gyaradoes comes in and is killed.
7. Chansey comes in. Brought to 14 hp by high jump kick. Use Minimize.
8. it finishes chansey off next turn with quick attack.
(GG)
I should have known since I made that same mistake in an earlier battle with Aegislash, (being unaware of the Mega Lopunnys ability and switching to it when it came in on Chansey), but I believe I was able to recover in that instance since I still had Gyarados in its base form that offered an Intimidate and a not very effective resistance to High Jump Kick. definetly a silly loss, a bit sad, but also looking forward to moving on and doing Doubles and Multis.
All in all this was my fondest streak looking back on after me and my brother managed 450+ wins in Multis on ORAS(also done using a Gyarados!) so I wanted to conclude it with a write up that maybe I could look at in the future and get a smile. as well as sharing for once because I've got so much helpful information from people in this thread as well as the Gen 6 Maison one. much more than just the people I shouted out.
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If you shuffle between Chansey/Aegi (on Close Combat)/Gyara on Arcanine4 lead, you can stall it out of Close Combat (this is to respect the crit chance), Growl it to -6 if it isn't already, and set up Gyarados to more than +1 (leaving aside that you could have gotten in more DDs against Probopass, since you couldn't control getting such a weak mon second). The initial switch to Chansey is useful anyway since it sets up on Arcanine3. That aside, I'm not seeing the targets for EQ, Substitute would be a better move (which also makes Walrein4 less effective; note that the Aegimensey team uses Salamence, not Chansey, to deal with it -- and it is no threat at all to that).
It is honestly astonishing that you mention Gyarados sweeping was the *least* likely scenario (unless you mean you sorted these in ascending order of likelihood), because on the Salamence team it is definitely most common (and safe, and the whole point) to have +6 Mence kill everything. I guess I can't argue with favoritism, though.
e: I'm also not sure how much the 252 SpD on Chansey helps at all, maybe against Raichu-A2 since it can't 2HKO you anymore at +6. You could achieve that with 164 SpD and have enough EVs for Speed to outrun base 60, which might help more than some extra points of SpD even if the overall stat total is lower (diminishing returns, "Speed is the most important stat", and all that). Or put the leftovers in HP to boost Chansey's physical bulk (against crits) a bit further.
It is honestly astonishing that you mention Gyarados sweeping was the *least* likely scenario (unless you mean you sorted these in ascending order of likelihood), because on the Salamence team it is definitely most common (and safe, and the whole point) to have +6 Mence kill everything. I guess I can't argue with favoritism, though.
e: I'm also not sure how much the 252 SpD on Chansey helps at all, maybe against Raichu-A2 since it can't 2HKO you anymore at +6. You could achieve that with 164 SpD and have enough EVs for Speed to outrun base 60, which might help more than some extra points of SpD even if the overall stat total is lower (diminishing returns, "Speed is the most important stat", and all that). Or put the leftovers in HP to boost Chansey's physical bulk (against crits) a bit further.
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Gyarados sweeping was the least likely because it was generally the least forgiving since he has no recovery(unlike Salamence who has Roost) and once you commit to the mega evolve you lose that trap card of changing your type and giving out further intimidate boosts, switching into earthquakes which was his main use. which did end up costing me. I didn't really like to take damage on him at all even miniscule. definetly things could have, should have done different in hindsight like the Chansey/Aegi switch(Once I got to 200 wins I generally played less safe in general lol), but the real kicker was simply overlooking/being ignorant of the ability of the LoPunny Mega and losing Aegislash for nothing. Just coming in on equal footing and give it a Kings Shield would have pretty much neutralized it.
there were a couple pokemon that Earthquake would let me kill without having to go for further dances and take further hits, and Earthquaking Levitate users just felt extremely satisfying. but your probably right haha.
Valid point on the 252 spD. perhaps a bit overkill. it did feel really good though. the HP may have been better? I just saw spdef investment as better since it stacks with his item and Chanseys HP stat is already much higher than SpD. I'm sure someones done some math at sone point. I will say though that there wasn't really a single time I felt I needed to be just a little faster I think if you choose to invest in speed you got to go all in on outspeeding Walrein at 85 or other big threats with 1HKO moves. thanks for your comment
Sorry I have never advocated for (or even used) Growl on Chansey. Substitute is definitely better. I used an EV spread that I knew was suboptimal just to show that I could get a higher streak with Chansey solely off the strength of a better moveset. As Coeur7 mentioned you can switch stuff around to make Arcanine set-up bait and that loss was more a function of you being greedy and trying to sweep at only +1.I have no idea if anyone plays this anymore or if this would help anyone, but if noting else I’d just like to report a streak of 342 in Super Singles just to have it archived somewhere since it would be fun to personally look back on as it exceeded any expectations I had and I didn't expect to get any berries out of it. (lol)
Team
Gyarados (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Crunch
Aegislash@ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
- King's Shield
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
Chansey (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
Bold Nature
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
- Minimize
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Growl
(all of Chanseys moves PP maxed and Kings Shield on Aegislash)
I’d like to credit a bunch of individuals whom I took ideas from.
@ AnonymousRandom and @DLNarshen : For the Lead Mega Gyarados(Gyarados happens to be my favorite pokemon so I was happy to see him be able to work)-Aegislash-electric switch in core. It also seems a bit poetic that my loss happened to be at the exact same match as Anonymousrandom meaning we now share the highest(reported) lead Mega Gary streaks. (lol)
@ GG Unit : I got the Chansey from him that I used in the previous Gen 6 games. The Growl Chansey moveset that he paired with Aegislash and Salamence (who I figured was similar enough to Garados that it should be pretty fun.) I chose Chansey over Garchomp primarily just because I like it more as a pokemon, but I also figured Chansey could cover all the switchins for Gyarados that Garchomp does(electrics) while also covering essentially every other special attacker and status user on top of electrics as well. I also copied his moveset and EV spread for Aegislash that I ended up deciding on after reading a number of posts on the speed debate of Aegislash. Perfect IV + 4 to break speed ties just made the most sense and was also the simplest haha.
@ turskain : his calculator website (https://turskain.github.io/) I would have probably lost before Match 50 Lol.
My initial attempt at Super singles was with a team of Dragonite instead of Gyarados. Along with the same Aegislash and Chansey. I ended up losing at match 46 to my first all legendary trainer. a lead Terrakion that used my initial switching as a chance to get swords dances off and then he proceeded to sweep my team.
I would have never believed this team would have got as far as it did as I’m not exactly the best Singles player for battle facilities. Last Gen my highest streak was in the 160s while copying turksain I believe it was who had a 1000+ streak with Dragonite-Aegislash-Greninja. And that was with multiple attempts at using the team with some attempts barely clearing 50. With Sun and Moon I kept reading that the facilities were even more daunting with Z-moves, and Megas so my angus was peppered to say the least and I went in with little expectations.
Most of the matches go one of 4 ways in order of how likely they happened.
- Switch to Chansey who either walls something completely(Special attackers), absorbs Status or wastes its PP(has Rest/a recovery move or something like Curse/Dragon dance where it can outgrowl it). Set up Minimizes, Heal when appropriate, and then Seismic Toss it to death.
- Switch to Aegislash who sets up Swords Dances between kings shields. (mostly Physical attackers without earthquake)
- Switch back and forth between Aegislash and Gyarados against something with Earthquake to neuter it to -6 attack and destroying its PP. I had experience doing this with Dragonite, but with the Intimidate debuff hitting it every turn it just felt incredible.
- Gyarados sets up and sweeps.
There are some exceptions where you make adjustments such as against things with Taunt where I would just get hits in here and there without setting up, but that was essentially how it would play out.
Gyarados is pretty much a worse Salamence, but I feel he does have some advantages. The type change when mega evolving really does come in handy. I would often do this against things such as Lead Terrakion(and I saw A LOT of Terrakion, he has to be one of the most common pokemon) where I would dragon dance and mega evolve on turn 1. I also ran into a lot of sword Dance Mimikyu who on paper looks like it could be particularly dangerous for a Salamence-Aegislash-Chansey core. Moldbreaker makes Mimikyu sharkfood. Also useful for Sturdy and Levitate mons. I also believe Gyarados results in quicker matches since its less setting up, roosting, and subsituting (although most matches were still quite lengthy).
I also have no regrets of the Chansey choice and moveset. If I used Garchomp or the timid one(with subsitute over growl, speed investment over spdef) I would have never made it as far as I did. I really loved the unlimited PP of growl and the sheer bulk and unkillableness that the one I used offered. They were both extremely valuable. Chansey could even straight up neuter most physical attackers lacking a fighting move if it was already set up. With Chansey you very rarely felt actual danger or urgency. The advantage in the Timid Chansey was extremely niche in comparison (outspeeding 1HKO users to set up a subitute, ). but that advantage wouldn't have really applied to me(explained a bit down in threats). This Chansey was essentially more noob friendly and worked better for me, but if your goal is the highest streak possible to account for every single possible threat that could pop up while leaving smaller margins of error(meaning you are better at this and less prone to making mistakes, which I myself am prone to making) I am not going to argue that the timid one isn't the best in that instance.
Some Threats
Swords Dance users: If your not careful these guys are always particularly dangerous, I think this goes for pretty much every team.
Azelf-3: Has Nasty Plot and Psychock, and a Focus Sash. Chansey gets automatically sent out against Lake Guardians unless someone else is already set up, and man these hurt if it gets a nasty plot or two even to Chansey who is pretty much indestructible to anything other than Swords Dancers and Physical fighting attacks.
OHKO users: My team has no subsitute, and thus any carrier of a One Hit KO move had the potential to end it. Especially….
Walrein-4: probably the most famous meme-mon of the battle facilities? I was literally shitting my pants in fear of this guy. I never once ran into him, but if I did it would have probably been the loss. The absolute best case against this thing would either be Gyarados out there already with 4+ dragaon dances(which happened almost never), or Aegislash out there with a swords dance(Walrein would still AT LEAST one attempt to end it). My plan if I ran into him as a lead was just to throw Chansey out there as a sacrifice hoping to waste some of his PP. Followed by Aegislash who would Kings shield, Swords dance, KingS Shield, Sacred Sword hoping to waste additional Sheer Cold PP or kill him. And Gyarados as a last resort hoping that Sheer Colds PP would be out by this stage and I could just dragon dance until I can 1HKO him. A large part of my streak was probably in part to never running into this thing a single time (I never ran into Walrein-3 either, not sure if they are just super rare or don’t appear in Ultra Sun). As said before I am pretty sure people were running Timid Chansey exclusively for this thing. And since I never actually ran into it, the advantage of having all that extra bulk was HUGE for me and I didn't have any repercussions in doing so. (lol)
Mega-Lopunny: I lost to this thing so I have to give it a mention.
The Loss
1. Gyarados vs Arcanine. I dragon dance. Arcanine uses Flair Blitz. Good
2. Gyarados kills Arcanine with Waterfall.
3. Probopass enters and Gyarados mega evolves for the earthquake KO (in case he has sturdy).
So far so good
4. Lopunny comes in.
(shit, he is faster than MegaGyarados+1.)
5. I switch to Aegislash not thinking he would die to high jump kick. This thing has Scrappy(can hit ghost types with normal/fighting, Lol fuck)
(At this point the game is loss. Kings shielding Lopunny or having unmegaevolved Gyarados would have been the only way to win without getting lucky on this thing missing.)
6. M-Gyaradoes comes in and is killed.
7. Chansey comes in. Brought to 14 hp by high jump kick. Use Minimize.
8. it finishes chansey off next turn with quick attack.
(GG)
I should have known since I made that same mistake in an earlier battle with Aegislash, (being unaware of the Mega Lopunnys ability and switching to it when it came in on Chansey), but I believe I was able to recover in that instance since I still had Gyarados in its base form that offered an Intimidate and a not very effective resistance to High Jump Kick. definetly a silly loss, a bit sad, but also looking forward to moving on and doing Doubles and Multis.
All in all this was my fondest streak looking back on after me and my brother managed 450+ wins in Multis on ORAS(also done using a Gyarados!) so I wanted to conclude it with a write up that maybe I could look at in the future and get a smile. as well as sharing for once because I've got so much helpful information from people in this thread as well as the Gen 6 Maison one. much more than just the people I shouted out.
Hey all,
A forum moderator told me to put my question here :
I lost to my irl rival. Her team :
- Gyarados
- Sylveon
- Kingdra
- Mega-Absol
- Infernape
- Sableye
My team was :
- Greninja
- Salamence
- Goodra
- Excadrill
- Nidoking
- Noivern
Any build suggestions for me ? It was a GEN VI (Oras/XY) 3DS fight, don’t hesitate to make suggestions, I’ve got plenty pokemons on my PC.
Rematch is due in two weeks.
See you around !
A forum moderator told me to put my question here :
I lost to my irl rival. Her team :
- Gyarados
- Sylveon
- Kingdra
- Mega-Absol
- Infernape
- Sableye
My team was :
- Greninja
- Salamence
- Goodra
- Excadrill
- Nidoking
- Noivern
Any build suggestions for me ? It was a GEN VI (Oras/XY) 3DS fight, don’t hesitate to make suggestions, I’ve got plenty pokemons on my PC.
Rematch is due in two weeks.
See you around !
Ah apologies for the miscredit. Looking back at the Maison article it was actually VaporeonIce that was the originator of Growl chansey, And @Psynergy used it to success this gen as well. thanks fellas. and yea it was just a huge misplay on my part.
a lot of your posts definetly helped me out regardless of that little mixup, so thanks again for all the info you put out.
