Battle Tree Discussion and Records

New to teambuilding for doubles, but I was toying with an idea of Mega Salamence and Lightning Rod Alolan Marowak leads, with Celesteela back up but Greninja is a bit of an issue for those three (not to mention I lack a special attacker). I thought about Tapu Fini, but Misty Terrain benefits neither Salamence nor Celesteela, not to mention it would be troublesome since I have Will-o-Wisp on Marowak and Toxic on Celesteela. What are some other good Greninja counters, or do I just have to scrap this plan?

Side note: I almost lost my first battle with Mega Salamence + Alolan Marowak lead after my opponent opened with Mega Alakazam and Electrode. Mega Alakazam traced Lightning Rod and absorbed whatever electric type attack Electrode went for. Luckily Shadow Bone took Alakazam out after it targeted my Salamence.
If you are worried about not having a special attacker, both Salamence and Celesteela can run special sets (although special Salamence needs hyper voice from ORAS). Salamence also has secondary STAB with Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor, and coverage with Flamethrower/Hydro Pump (the former is redundant with the rest of the team, the latter has low accuracy though.) Celesteela has solid STAB in Flash Cannon and Air Slash, and can use one or both of those with status moves (or go all out offencive with a fire/grass coverage move).

As for a Greninja counter, Tapu Koko is faster and can knock it out with both its STAB's, although it has bad synergy with Alolan Marowak and would probably have to use Thunderbolt/Volt Switch alongside Discharge, since neither Mega-Salamence nor Celesteela wants to take any of its electric attacks. An offencive set with Life Orb or a Z-Crystal is probably it's best bet.

Sure, I'd like some recommendations for Trick Room Pokemon. I can usually get Pokebank Pokemon through GTS, because Oranguru is highly sought-after. However, any movesets that require transfers are out, since I don't have Pokebank myself (or ORAS move tutors). I guess a Fighting type is recommended to beat Dark types for Oranguru, or maybe a Fairy.

Also, I probably can't get most legendaries.
Seconding Hariyama, it is a good lead. Once HA Incineroar comes out, it may be a good option if you want more bulk.

Right now, Drampa and Vikavolt are good special attackers, the former with a whole ton of coverage and multiple good abilities, the latter with a bit more power and stronger STAB options. Primarina might also work, trading a bit of power for a great defencive typing and good special bulk. Wishiwashi is yet another strong water type, and can run both physical and special sets.

There are plenty of strong physical attackers, including Araquanid, Golisopod, Dhelmise, and Mudsdale. Araquanid is a one trick pony, but can hit hard with Liquidation, and might run a good Choice Band set. Golisopod has enough priority to be able to work in and out of Trick Room, and combines good bulk with Leech Life. Dhelmize has a great attack stat and 3 STAB's, giving it good coverage to supplant its physical bulk. Mudsdale also has great bulk, and a solid set of coverage options.

While I haven't mentioned anything that requires Bank yet, Mega-Mawile is going to be good with its great bulk and insane attack. Mega-Ampharos might be good too once it comes out.
 
I've considered Mudsdale for a while. A Ground type that doesn't have to rely on Earthquake could come in handy.

As for movesets for the special attackers, will these work? I'm no good at defensive EV spreads, and I'm just throwing ideas out there. Wishiwashi's movepool looks really bad after checking Serebii, and even worse for special attacking sets. It has. . .pretty much just Water and Ice coverage on the special side.

Primarina @ Whatever its Z-Crystal is called
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense

Sparkling Aria
Moonblast
Energy Ball
Protect

Vikavolt @ Life Orb
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 HP

Thunderbolt
Bug Buzz
Protect
Filler (Volt Switch/Energy Ball/Flash Cannon?)


Drampa @ Life Orb
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense
Sap Sipper

Hyper Voice
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast? (It needs something for Steel types, but Fire Blast)
Protect

Wishiwashi's movepool looks terrible on the special side. Pretty much just Water and Ice coverage. I imagine a physical variant would be something like Waterfall/Earthquake/U-Turn/Protect with a Sitrus Berry.
 
Even Brave Wishiwashi has no reason not to run Ice Beam; it does enough damage to things to be relevant. Uturn is helpful but not Instructable. Also give Wishiwashi a (I believe) Wiki Berry for that 50% heal in order to keep School form after one or two hits removes it.

Life Orb on Drampa is sufficient to OHKO relevant steels with Flamethrower instead of Fire Blast. I don't really like Draco Meteor without the Drsgonium Z.

People hype Golisopod for priority priority priority but honestly on a TR team that just won't accomplish much other than setting off EE sooner. With Oranguru around, don't use shit like Aqua Jet; Instruct moves that will actually kill targets, like Liquidation. Mine happens to run Rock Slide for dual flinch chance cheese among being more useful than STABless Sucker Punch in general. Just my opinion. Golisopod has very good bulk running an Assault Vest.
 
So I see on the first page for multi battles, the win requirement may be 60 wins but its still subject to change. I just got a win streak of 68 wins. should I go ahead and post the team and video and everything?
 
I'm looking for some advice over which three of my 10 EV trained pokemon would be best for Battle Tree Super Singles. I know this isn't standard format for posting things here, but I made a spreadsheet of their stats when adjusted to level 50 by the tree, and their movesets etc:

http://i.imgur.com/ywHmSDj.png

All of them have fairly standard EV spreads and natures and all except Pheromosa, Ash Greninja, Kartana and Tapu Koko have perfect or 5 IVs (the previously mentioned three have, at least, good enough ones and natures). I gave Dragonite enough speed EVs to have 241 at level 100 and put the remainder in HP. I think it's something like 180 speed EVs (it's adamant).

Also open to suggestions for movesets, etc. I've been thinking of surf instead of scald on Greninja, I notice I have been missing a few KOs by a small amount. Also considering LO instead of Expert Belt on Greninja, as I did in Omega Ruby. My Dragonite runs DD/Outrage/Iron Head/Fire Punch, I'm thinking maybe EQ instead of Fire Punch. I don't want to delete Iron Head because I can't get it back (it's a gen 6 tutor move). Protean Greninja, Dragonite, and Kangaskhan got me to nearly 300 in Omega Ruby, but I'm not sure if Kangaskhan is still good enough with its nerf, and maybe my Battle Bond Greninja is better, even though it has +speed - spdef instead of Timid.

Currently I have been going with Dragonite (lead), Ash Greninja, and shuffling around the last one between Mega Kangaskhan, Kartana, Koko, and Pheromosa, and it's hard to choose.

In particular I was wondering if there is any good use of a z-move I could get with my team. It feels like kind of a waste to completely ignore them, but I can't think of a good use. I was thinking maybe Z-surf/dark pulse on my Ash-Greninja as a nuke to help guarantee a battle bond, but ehhh... I was also considering Z-Fly on Dragonite, but I don't want to forgo my lum berry.

I'm sure some of the things on that sheet are not useful for the tree at all (Nidoking, Archeops... I just trained them for fun), but I thought I'd include them anyway. Thanks for reading.
Hoping to get some opinions on my team.
 
I've considered Mudsdale for a while. A Ground type that doesn't have to rely on Earthquake could come in handy.

As for movesets for the special attackers, will these work? I'm no good at defensive EV spreads, and I'm just throwing ideas out there. Wishiwashi's movepool looks really bad after checking Serebii, and even worse for special attacking sets. It has. . .pretty much just Water and Ice coverage on the special side.

Primarina @ Whatever its Z-Crystal is called
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense

Sparkling Aria
Moonblast
Energy Ball
Protect

Vikavolt @ Life Orb
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 HP

Thunderbolt
Bug Buzz
Protect
Filler (Volt Switch/Energy Ball/Flash Cannon?)


Drampa @ Life Orb
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense
Sap Sipper

Hyper Voice
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast? (It needs something for Steel types, but Fire Blast)
Protect

Wishiwashi's movepool looks terrible on the special side. Pretty much just Water and Ice coverage. I imagine a physical variant would be something like Waterfall/Earthquake/U-Turn/Protect with a Sitrus Berry.
I havent tested the first and last one out, but I have used a similar Vikavolt set on a team with Oranguru/Hariyama/Vikavolt/Araquanid team, and it worked pretty well (the team isn't that good, big rock weakness and apparently weak to Mega Slowbro). Primarina has Scald as another water STAB if you don't want to target your ally, or Hydro Pump if you like taking a risk. Another set I heard for Drampa was running a similar set with Dragonium-Z to get a one time nuke that does not lower Special Attack, and Cloud Nine is an option if you fear weather teams.

Speaking about weather teams, I wonder whether Mega-Steelix and Gigalith would work well together in Trick Room, offering serious power despite their similar coverage moves. Would Tyranitar work better?
 
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I havent tested the latter first and last one out, but I have used a similar Vikavolt set on a team with Oranguru/Hariyama/Vikavolt/Araquanid team, and it worked pretty well (the team isn't that good, big rock weakness and apparently weak to Mega Slowbro). Another set I heard for Drampa was running a similar set with Dragonium-Z to get a one time nuke that does not lower Special Attack.
Yeah, I probably wouldn't run two Bug types on the same team, especially considering Aerodactyl's Rock Slide. For the Life Orb set on Drampa, I guess Dragon Pulse should be used instead of Draco Meteor? Dragon Pulse would be mainly there as a filler move to hit other Dragons.
 
Not really posting a streak, but I just have to share my experiences with this... thing. A while back I noticed how Suicune now gets Sheer Cold as a level up move, and after scouring the web for some data on that move that was up to date and turning up nothing, I decided to test it out in the Battle Tree, since that's a neat place to always face same-level opponents. I quickly ran through the Singles challenge with little issue, beating Red with only a few minor setbacks, and then I progressed from 50 to 69 (lost to Grimsley in battle 70) with this abomination:


The Cune and Friends:


Suicune @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Sheer Cold
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I had the week off from work since the pupils are on spring break, and I spent my free time (i.e. the time when my daughter and wife were asleep) catching, raising and hyper training a Suicune for myself. It was when I was deciding on moveset that I noticed he learned Sheer Cold these days, hence this thing. The set, as I used it for this part of the run, is designed to spam as many Sheer Cold as possible, until PP runs out. Very rarely he is KO'd without using up at least the 8 PP for Sheer Cold. It's also scary easy to stall out some opponent pokémon from their attacking moves with this thing. The goal was never to achieve a streak worth posting, but to say "f you" to all OHKO abusers in the Tree and also to do a little research on the accuracy of Sheer Cold, since the data doesn't seem to be available.



Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Softboiled
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

Man, this thing is hilarious to use. It sets up on quite a lot of things in the Tree and managed several complete sweeps in the 40 games I played with the team. I'm not convinced it's in any way better than Toxistalling Minimize Chansey, but it was designed to counter Ice types, specifically special attacking ones, and it does that with little trouble.



Scizor (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

Standard SD-Scizor, which was there to counter Ice types, just like Blissey. It does its job very well. The EVs might be sub-par, I'm not sure.


So, how did I do? Well, I lost in battle 70, as stated above, but more importantly, this is the total number of hits and misses (not counting turns where Protect was used or similar, I'm not sure if there's a difference in text prompts in battle when Protect is used against an OHKO-move that hits vs. an OHKO-move that misses):

Hits: 34
Misses: 116
Accuracy: ≈ 22,6%

There is obviously not enough data to draw any conclusions yet, but my findings hints at a lower-than-30% accuracy for Sheer Cold when used by Suicune/Kyogre. I had a blast using it though, there are few moments as fist-pumpy as hitting a Sheer Cold vs. Cresselia-2 after 2-3 Double Teams.
 
(the team isn't that good, big rock weakness and apparently weak to Mega Slowbro).
Only comment I have on this is that Vikavolt engineered optimally for TR both outspeeds and OHKOs Mega Slowbro with no item. My only experience with Araquanid involved a Life Orb and not the more standard Waterium, and I only encountered a single Mega Slowbro in my streak, but it was sufficient; LO Lunge did about 80% in two uses and MS' preferred attack Psychic couldn't even do more than half. It also outspeeds it under TR and so MS was pretty much checkmated. Leech Life would have been better in that situation, but the whole reason I had Lunge was for the theorymonned nightmare scenario where a Storm Drain user is paired with a rock user, and Araquanid needs the guaranteed -2 attack drop to see another turn. Situation hasn't come up yet lol

As for Drampa, I think it would really miss the insane firepower from Dragonium-Z, but if you're bent on using the Life Orb with it, yeah, Dragon Pulse is it. I was impressed enough with plain Hyper Voice so I suppose it would be a pretty useful move when Instructed with LO held. Give it a shot.
 
I tried Life Orb Drampa out, and I was really disappointed. Hyper Voice usually works fine, but it doesn't have enough bulk to work outside Trick Room. That, and even without the Tapus, the Battle Tree seems hostile to Dragons. I'm considering switching out Knock Off for Heavy Slam on Hariyama just to deal with those annoying Fairies.

As for Primarina with the Z-Crystal, Sparkling Aria is. . .underwhelming without the Z-move, even to some Pokemon weak to it. That, and it hits your partner, like Earthquake. I think I'll mainly stick with physical attackers for the Battle Tree.
 
...what are you running on Hariyama where you don't have both Knock Off and Heavy Slam? He needs both. Past battle 40 you're going to be fighting a lot of the lake pixies, who are killed quickly by Knock Off (especially Azelf and Mesprit) and Hariyama will appreciate having it against enemy setters on the first turn, particularly Jellicent and Slowking. It's important to get that powerful hit in, though for Jeliicent you're mostly just neutering Water Spout damage.

But, most importantly, whatever move Hariyama is using that makes you choose between Knock Off and Heavy Slam, lose that shit because it's hurting your badly needed coverage and utility. Fake Out/Knock Off/Heavy Slam/Close Combat is the only set it should be running.

What kind of situations is Drampa getting into? I almost never switched it in mid-turn that I can recall because, indeed, it has poor bulk for a normal type. The only poke I was very hesitant to use it against was Conkeldurr if it hadn't yet lost its Iron Ball. Ice types were a non-issue for multiple reasons.

Special attackers are helpful because they aren't crippled by Intimidate or Will-O-Wisp. Will-O is a fairly common status move on Ghosts and Rotom, and I personally have encountered the Punk using nothing but Intimidate pokes fairly often, as well as Mega Mence/Scrafty/Incineroar in general, which have frequently had the ability. I haven't yet used Primarina but I did breed one and I EV'd it to take advantage of Assault Vest or Life Orb. Its bulk is pretty decent and it has an excellent offensive movepool.
 
Only comment I have on this is that Vikavolt engineered optimally for TR both outspeeds and OHKOs Mega Slowbro with no item. My only experience with Araquanid involved a Life Orb and not the more standard Waterium, and I only encountered a single Mega Slowbro in my streak, but it was sufficient; LO Lunge did about 80% in two uses and MS' preferred attack Psychic couldn't even do more than half. It also outspeeds it under TR and so MS was pretty much checkmated. Leech Life would have been better in that situation, but the whole reason I had Lunge was for the theorymonned nightmare scenario where a Storm Drain user is paired with a rock user, and Araquanid needs the guaranteed -2 attack drop to see another turn. Situation hasn't come up yet lol

As for Drampa, I think it would really miss the insane firepower from Dragonium-Z, but if you're bent on using the Life Orb with it, yeah, Dragon Pulse is it. I was impressed enough with plain Hyper Voice so I suppose it would be a pretty useful move when Instructed with LO held. Give it a shot.
I screwed up at the start, in my second loss opponents lead was Slowbro and another psychic type, I was afraid of Hariyama getting targeted, so I switched out to Vivavolt, only to get it KOed first turn, and the loss snowballed from there. Perhaps part of it is I need to play better, but I still am worried about the rock weakness and Araquanid's lack of usable coverage. Thinking of trying Oranguru/M-Mawile/Drampa/Mudsdale, as it has less shared weaknesses, more bulk, better coverage, and I have been wanting to try Mudsdale out.

Something I forgot to mention is that Marowak-A might work in TR, and it has a good defencive typing that gives it a immunity to burns and can use Lightningrod to protect an electric-weak opponent, plus it has pretty good coverage. Can't really think of many good trick room special attackers, but Reuniclus might work with it's solid bulk and ability, albeit mediocre coverage. Magnezone is in a similar boat, high power, solid bulk and abilities, but poor coverage. Sylveon can work if you can get Pixilate Hyper Voice.
 
Not really posting a streak, but I just have to share my experiences with this... thing. A while back I noticed how Suicune now gets Sheer Cold as a level up move, and after scouring the web for some data on that move that was up to date and turning up nothing, I decided to test it out in the Battle Tree, since that's a neat place to always face same-level opponents. I quickly ran through the Singles challenge with little issue, beating Red with only a few minor setbacks, and then I progressed from 50 to 69 (lost to Grimsley in battle 70) with this abomination:


The Cune and Friends:


Suicune @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Sheer Cold
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I had the week off from work since the pupils are on spring break, and I spent my free time (i.e. the time when my daughter and wife were asleep) catching, raising and hyper training a Suicune for myself. It was when I was deciding on moveset that I noticed he learned Sheer Cold these days, hence this thing. The set, as I used it for this part of the run, is designed to spam as many Sheer Cold as possible, until PP runs out. Very rarely he is KO'd without using up at least the 8 PP for Sheer Cold. It's also scary easy to stall out some opponent pokémon from their attacking moves with this thing. The goal was never to achieve a streak worth posting, but to say "f you" to all OHKO abusers in the Tree and also to do a little research on the accuracy of Sheer Cold, since the data doesn't seem to be available.



Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Softboiled
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

Man, this thing is hilarious to use. It sets up on quite a lot of things in the Tree and managed several complete sweeps in the 40 games I played with the team. I'm not convinced it's in any way better than Toxistalling Minimize Chansey, but it was designed to counter Ice types, specifically special attacking ones, and it does that with little trouble.



Scizor (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

Standard SD-Scizor, which was there to counter Ice types, just like Blissey. It does its job very well. The EVs might be sub-par, I'm not sure.


So, how did I do? Well, I lost in battle 70, as stated above, but more importantly, this is the total number of hits and misses (not counting turns where Protect was used or similar, I'm not sure if there's a difference in text prompts in battle when Protect is used against an OHKO-move that hits vs. an OHKO-move that misses):

Hits: 34
Misses: 116
Accuracy: ≈ 22,6%

There is obviously not enough data to draw any conclusions yet, but my findings hints at a lower-than-30% accuracy for Sheer Cold when used by Suicune/Kyogre. I had a blast using it though, there are few moments as fist-pumpy as hitting a Sheer Cold vs. Cresselia-2 after 2-3 Double Teams.
I distinctly recall seeing something about it being 20% when used by non-ice types, with a sample of about 550 (also in tree, iirc jhon was the person who tested it although i may be wrong). I couldn't find the smogon post, but here's bulbapedia's reporting on it. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sheer_Cold_(move)#Generation_VII

Ironically, it instantly comes to mind that you are weak to the very beast that made your water boy so powerful. Walrein4, in the absence of substitutes and things that are immune to fissure, eats your team alive. At least, that's all I could think of after I stopped vomiting in my mouth after a look at the team.

On an unrelated note, on battle 90 of the same team that I used previously, I FINALLY GOT LEAD GARCHOMP3. Multis, ready yourself for the new and improved Jolly Garchomp3, now with a partner that isn't utter rubbish (coming soon...)
 
I distinctly recall seeing something about it being 20% when used by non-ice types, with a sample of about 550 (also in tree, iirc jhon was the person who tested it although i may be wrong). I couldn't find the smogon post, but here's bulbapedia's reporting on it. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sheer_Cold_(move)#Generation_VII

Ironically, it instantly comes to mind that you are weak to the very beast that made your water boy so powerful. Walrein4, in the absence of substitutes and things that are immune to fissure, eats your team alive. At least, that's all I could think of after I stopped vomiting in my mouth after a look at the team.

On an unrelated note, on battle 90 of the same team that I used previously, I FINALLY GOT LEAD GARCHOMP3. Multis, ready yourself for the new and improved Jolly Garchomp3, now with a partner that isn't utter rubbish (coming soon...)
Thanks for the input. As I said, the object was never to get a great streak, but to do some research on Sheer Cold. I guess I'll have to dig around in the research thread some more :) I'm not sure how to interpret the mouth vomiting, but I'm going to take it as a compliment.

EDIT: I found the post with the previous research, 520 tries for a total of about 18% accuracy. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...chanics-research.3586701/page-37#post-7088528
 
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I screwed up at the start, in my second loss opponents lead was Slowbro and another psychic type, I was afraid of Hariyama getting targeted, so I switched out to Vivavolt, only to get it KOed first turn, and the loss snowballed from there. Perhaps part of it is I need to play better, but I still am worried about the rock weakness and Araquanid's lack of usable coverage. Thinking of trying Oranguru/M-Mawile/Drampa/Mudsdale, as it has less shared weaknesses, more bulk, better coverage, and I have been wanting to try Mudsdale out.

Something I forgot to mention is that Marowak-A might work in TR, and it has a good defencive typing that gives it a immunity to burns and can use Lightningrod to protect an electric-weak opponent, plus it has pretty good coverage. Can't really think of many good trick room special attackers, but Reuniclus might work with it's solid bulk and ability, albeit mediocre coverage. Magnezone is in a similar boat, high power, solid bulk and abilities, but poor coverage. Sylveon can work if you can get Pixilate Hyper Voice.
Reuniclus hits like a truck; its main problems stem from its kind of poor bulk than coverage.

Mind you I have not yet used Reuniclus semi seriously without Gravity and Focus Blast was a key part of its arsenal. Energy Ball, Shadow Ball and Psychic rounded it out. Its offensive prowess is a little higher than that of Mega Ampharos who is also fairly effective.
 
With no Cameruptite or Ampharosite as of now, what could be a good Mega Evolution for a Trick Room team here?

I'm guessing it's Mega Blastoise (and that's why I bred a 0 Speed one yesterday)
 
With no Cameruptite or Ampharosite as of now, what could be a good Mega Evolution for a Trick Room team here?

I'm guessing it's Mega Blastoise (and that's why I bred a 0 Speed one yesterday)
Even with 0 speed Mega Blastoise is 'outsped' by quite a lot. M-Slowbro is your best bet speed wise and has similar special attack to M-Blastoise and also can set TR (no Water Spout spam though). Unfortunately the best TR megas aren't available yet so your best bet is probably slow non-megas with Z-moves to be your nuke instead.
 
...what are you running on Hariyama where you don't have both Knock Off and Heavy Slam? He needs both. Past battle 40 you're going to be fighting a lot of the lake pixies, who are killed quickly by Knock Off (especially Azelf and Mesprit) and Hariyama will appreciate having it against enemy setters on the first turn, particularly Jellicent and Slowking. It's important to get that powerful hit in, though for Jeliicent you're mostly just neutering Water Spout damage.
My Hariyama moveset is Fake Out/Knock Off/Close Combat/Rock Slide. I guess Rock Slide should be swapped out for Heavy Slam?

For Assault Vest sets, I guess you should max out Special Defense instead of HP? It seems like common sense, but recommended defensive EVs can look strange sometimes.

Drampa is usually sent out after Hariyama dies (the enemies tend to target it more than Oranguru).

I will admit that Primarina has decent special defenses, but Sparkling Aria is mediocre at best from my experience. It works more like Surf than Muddy Water.
 
There are a couple pokes that don't get much out of HP investment but most Assault Vest users are not among them. Without taking into account the EVs allocated to offense, AV users typically put as much investment into SpD as it takes to hit whatever threshhold needed to survive some specific attacks and then puts at least some into HP.

I wouldn't send Drampa out if there's still a lot of work to be done, but that's why you run calcs. You're less likely to get nasty surprises that way. I'm guessing you've been sending it out and simply attacking head on without really knowing what to expect.
 
What a joyous occasion! I made an account just to report that I hit a Super Singles streak of 106.

I lost due to some misplays against a salamence lead (thought ice beam would ohko it, but I guess not) and thinking the charizard mega was Y, which could be ohko'd by Mega Mence's Return.


Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Low Kick
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Poison Jab
With Life Orb Low Kick, the power loss from not using HJK is partially negated, avoiding the nasty miss chance and recoil, with a bonus of boosting Phero's other moves. If Phero can't OHKO the other team's lead, it's more safe to U Turn out to break any sturdys, sashes, and leave the pokemon a bit easier to kill by team mates. If she's still alive, she can come back later to clean up. She outspeeds almost every lead, save for Aero1 (which stops appearing later in the run anyway), Scarf Chomp, and Scarf Manetric, allowing her to at the very least, weaken or destroy fast threats to the rest of the team. The beast boost speed boost hasn't come in handy much, since it's unlikely Phero stays in for more than one Pokemon, and it's not very likely the enemy will have one of the scarfed threats right after she kills something.

You usually want to U-turn out to Celesteela if she kills with it, since switching to Salamence doesn't trigger intimidate when the opponent switches in.



Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
With these EVs, Salamence hits 180 speed, which is enough to outspeed most threats. Pokemon that hit 183 speed, which includes the lake spirits, musketeers, and the genies, are easily taken out by Pheromosa and Celesteela. Substitute is to avoid status and, if the enemy pokemon is unable to do much damage, Mega Mence can easily set up between substitute and DD. Really passive pokemon without damaging moves are setup bait for Mence, as long as you don't switch into status.

Unfortunately, without a DD, Mence misses out on some OHKOs on some threatening pokemon, or any pokemon that can outspeed, especially if Phero is down (and she can't be switched in unless a pokemon is sacked, due to her frail nature) Probably my team's best answer to fire types.


Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
Despite her weakness to electric types, She's a very good special wall and can actually stall out many pokemon with a mix of leech seed and protect. Weaker electric types can actually lose to her, especially since the best electric moves are special. Generally you want to switch into her if you don't know what's next, since she can scout with protect and set up leech seed, which helps out Mega Mence especially.


Threats:
Thunder Spam:
This is a hit or miss with this team. Mega Mence is the only one not weak to Thunder, (Phero is gonna get killed by it no matter what, lets be real) and despite Celes's weakness, can sometimes survive a 2HKO thunder spam and get a leech seed out. If Celes can get a special defense boost, she can deal with it a bit easier, but it's not the best.

Mega Charizards:
Mega Charizard X can survive a Return from mega mence and OHKO the entire team with a mix of Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz. Your only hope is to get some damage with Phero and sack her to switch into Mega Mence, who can hopefully do enough damage to kill.
Y is a bit easier if not allowed to set up. Mega Mence beats it 1v1, but if allowed to get a DD up, Mence is a shaky check since Heat Wave and Air Slash can 2HKO mence and threaten to burn. This actually happened earlier in the run, but Mence somehow managed to survive because Air Slash missed.

Mega Kanga:
If Celesteela is down, Mega Kanga can Fake Out Phero and then Sucker Punch her, most likely killing her, if LO recoil doesn't. Somehow managed to survive a 1v1 of Phero and Mega Kenga because she didn't lead with fake out, but that was the AI blessing me.

Porygon Z-3
Phero can't reliably OHKO Porygon Z-3 with low kick, and Celesteela will cause it to start spamming charge beam, which will start boosting it's special attack. Not good. Your best bet is to switch into Salamence who can kill with return and doesn't take too much damage from Charge Beam, but if Mence is gone, then you're kinda shit outta luck unless you can somehow kill it before it gets too many boosts.



Loss:
3DEW-WWWW-WWW5-HH9Z

Self explanatory. I made some mistakes with dealing with Salamence, leading me to lose Pheromosa at the beginning. I likely could have survived U turning into Celes and stalling with protect/seed before switching to mence to get that sweet, sweet leech seed heals. It seems the Mega Charizards are a problem for my team, with X's stabs able to threaten my entire team, and Y is really dangerous if allowed to get a DD up.
 
Hey guys,

Been lurking for a couple years and transitioning my Maison team over to the Tree. In general, how are the Maison teams if you copy paste them into the tree? I am on Battle 53 currently with iVolke's team (except a Bold natured/Stall Tapu Fini) and I love that team as it has two of my favorites, but when I inevitably lose I wanted to try something else.

I have always loved Protean Greninja lead, so I was thinking the old team of Greninja, M-Scizor, and Gliscor. I know that team was great in the Maison, has anyone tried it in the tree?

Or any other teams that work well with Greninja?

Thanks for all the info, this thread is fantastic.
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor
As an aside, I'm also open to the idea creating an "informational" category in the OP for interesting or useful streaks that may not be leaderboard eligible, either due to length or possible hacking. Listings could include things like Smuckem's streaks using PokeGened Pokemon with identical sets and stats as those used by the AI, or research into how the AI evaluates certain situations which might be easiest with a customized and possibly illegal team.
I've been sitting on a response to this for a while, but I now feel I can say: I would be heartily behind establishing this. Why?
- While it wasn't formally for such a purpose, the Trophy Hall of Fame in the Maison thread ended up serving as a sort of repository for teams that fit this category. Mainly, these were filled with teams for different formats that were just good enough to hit 50 wins (and often times, a little further than that), and for a number of people, that was all they were really shooting for. Since there aren't enough formats in the Tree to warrant a "Stamp Hall of Fame", and I doubt such a thing will be created this time around, an Informational section would basically take the place of this and give stamp hunters an easy library of teams to try out
- There have been tons of interesting/gimmicky/potentially viable ideas presented in past facility threads that have been lost to time and the sheer weight of these threads, never to be unearthed, because they were never placed in their own section where they could be easily accessed via the OP or any quick reference posts. Such teams could be later tried by others and possibly taken to greater heights, maybe even to the leaderboards, or serve as an reminder to their creators down the line if they decide to pick such experiments back up for tweaking or further testing. The team Purgatory recently posted is an example of something that will suffer the same fate as so many others--once this thread hits 150 pages or so--if some method of 'preservation' isn't employed now
- Hacked teams, legal or not, if given a section of their own, might be a way to help out those folks who specialize in game mechanics/programming research (they have their own territory in the forums, right?) by them more data to comb through, or streamline some of their work. Also, it would be one small way to connect two somewhat disparate communities within the larger Smogon community--unity is always good, or so I've heard
- Would likely serve as the precursor to a QR Team section of the OP (importantly, teams made outside of Smogon), or simply as the place where such teams would best fit
- Would give me more stuff to read

Snack for thought.
 
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Got another Doubles team to show (not Trick Room this time), which is currently sitting at 250 wins. (sorry for the oversized picture)



I wanted to build a team around a certain Alola mon, which you'll see down below; and no, it's not the first one. Admittedly it doesn't have any standout qualities on its own (or ones worthy of using in the Battle Tree at least), but I still felt that potential was there if I could offer proper team support. Thus for the rest of the cast I looked over what people here have already been using for inspiration; mons with favourable typing and stat distribution that can quickly put your opponent on the back foot. It just so happens the other 3 members are also VGC '17 metagame staples, so why not apply similar principles for Tree Doubles and see how they perform? Granted I don't actually play VGC, but it's nevertheless a great reference tool, since experience in almost any battling format has a carryover effect from one to the other.



Tapu Lele ("Psy Kid") @
Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest
Ability: Psychic Surge
IVs: 31/28/31/x/x/31 (Bottle Capped)
EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball
HP: 147
Attack: 93
Defense: 96
Sp. Attack: 200
Sp. Def: 136
Speed: 145

I didn't really have a say in the matter since nothing else can support my chosen Pokemon in quite the same way Tapu Lele does, but it's a very strong pick regardless. I felt like Scarf was the most solid, obvious option with this kind of team for outspeeding the vast majority of the Tree and punching large holes in the opponent from Turn 1. Psychic is a super spammable move thanks to the auto-Terrain boost, and the one you'd prefer to be locked into most of the time. Moonblast is for quickly disposing of threats like Mega Salamence & Mega Altaria before they get a chance to do anything, while Dazzling Gleam still does respectable damage for a spread attack and works great against dual frail leads, especially from the likes of Grimsley. Energy Ball is the superior coverage move over Focus Miss (yeah nah) or Thunderbolt (I always click Moonblast in front of Gyarados to cover for Mega), since it OHKO's Mega Swampert; fortunately a rare occurrence, but that thing is extremely threatening if I let it set up the Rain. I didn't bother with max Speed EVs since the only thing that achieves is a tie with Darmanitan4, which I wouldn't risk staying in on anwyay; 217 (factoring in the Scarf boost) gets the jump on Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile & Accelgor3/4, and there's nothing between those and Darmanitan4 at 220, so I'm pretty confident in saying this is an ideal spread for Modest Scarf Lele. I also didn't want to reduce damage output by running a Timid nature.




Garchomp (M) ("Sharknado") @
Groundium Z
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Rough Skin
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Earthquake {Tectonic Rage}
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Protect
HP: 184
Attack: 182
Defense: 115
Sp. Attack: 90
Sp. Defense: 105
Speed: 169

Prior this team I hadn't used Garchomp in quite a while, in saying that I'm no stranger to its well-rounded stats and general ability to put the hurting on. Also a worthy candidate for a Z-Crystal, Garchomp is my answer for problematic Steel/Rock/Ground Pokemon that Lele has trouble breaking through, especially ones that use Sandstorm to further reduce its effectiveness. Tectonic Rage obviously doesn't damage Lele (and my other teammates), and is great for taking out anything troublesome (Double Team Regigigas); even with the necessary Jolly nature over Adamant, it might not be the most potent Z-Move out there, but it deals with what I need it to. And thanks to Garchomp being a solid option on its own, I haven't been disappointed in that regard. A fair few Turn 1's play out with Lele + Chomp heavily damaging or outright KO'ing both leads due to this, putting my opponent at a significant deficit right away. Dragon Claw is underwhelming in power without a boosting item, but it's the only reliable Dragon STAB I can use; it still OHKO's Haxorus3/4 100% of the time though, which is nice. Poison Jab is handy for smacking Whimsicott/Shiinotic (preventing the latter from getting a potential Spore off), and also KO's Ribombee in combination with Dazzling Gleam; which could otherwise be a nuisance if I let it Quiver Dance.




Bruxish (M) ("ColgateSmile") @
Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Strong Jaw
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/1 (Bottle Capped)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Protect
HP: 143
Attack: 157
Defense: 90
Sp. Attack: 81
Sp. Defense: 91
Speed: 158

I guess my initial attraction to this beautiful fish was with its shiny new signature move, and an ability that takes advantage of it. Psychic Terrain support was an immediate thought in my attempt to carve a niche for Bruxish in the Tree; it's frail yet quite powerful with Strong Jaw, so slapping a Focus Sash on and emphasizing that attacking prowess with Tapu Lele seemed to be the most logical path. Bruxish could maybe see some moderate success in other formats with Dazzling instead (why give it nonexistent bulk with that ability?-ugh), but in the Tree where you need to be prepared for so many situations and where aggression is rewarded, the only thing it should be doing is firing off Terrain/Strong Jaw-boosted attacks until it dies. Speaking of which, the aforementioned Psychic Fangs' power is not be taken lightly, and it being 100% accurate as opposed to the far inferior old Fang moves is much appreciated. Its additional effect of breaking through Screens has also proven useful, albeit situational against the likes of Alolan Ninetales and the Pixies. Crunch provides good coverage against Psychic-resists like Bronzong, Reuniclus, Musharna etc., also getting a Strong Jaw boost. While I was experimenting with leads early on, Lele + Bruxish was surprisingly effective...for a while; my main issue was that I was very vulnerable to Steel/Rock leads, making Bruxish pretty dead weight in that position. Keeping him in the back and leading with Garchomp instead has been working out a lot better for me; while this means I'm not able to use Bruxish as often in battles as I'd sometimes like, he has still proven to be a worthy sac, or as a safe switch-in with the Sash still intact. Waterfall has been used sparingly on Psychic-immune or x4 weak mons such as Incineroar/Rhyperior/Golem since neutral Psychic Fangs under Psychic Terrain still does more damage. Waterfall therefore leaves a bit to be desired, so a Water STAB that benefits from Strong Jaw would be really cool in the future.




Arcanine (M) ("Superberus") @
Sitrus Berry
Nature: Modest
Ability: Intimidate
IVs: 31/0/31/31/31/31
EVs: 228 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 20 SpD / 68 Spe
- Burn Up
- Helping Hand
- Protect
- Toxic
HP: 194
Attack: 103
Defense: 120
Sp. Attack: 137
Sp. Defense: 103
Speed: 124

The idea for a Burn Up Arcanine first came to fruition when turskain brought it up on the Discord server. At this stage the last member needed to be something that could handle the likes of Scizor and Ferrothorn, so a reasonably defensive Arcanine with Intimidate and Helping Hand support seemed ideal. Rather than simply using Flamethrower however, I was excited to get a little creative and test how much mileage I could get out of its newfound toy. Here's the two main reasons why Burn Up is good:
1. Thanks to its impressive 130 Base Power, I was able to focus on a more defensively oriented EV spread with minimal Sp. Attack investment; just enough to secure OHKO's on Mega Metagross & Mega Mawile. Yeah, I still need to run a Modest nature, but Calm/Bold would require significantly more SpA EVs and therefore less to dump elsewhere.
2. Burn Up's side effect makes Arcanine typeless after use, meaning he is now hit neutrally by every type and can't use Burn Up a second time (this resets upon switching out). In conjunction with the defensive investment, Sitrus Berry recovery, Toxic and Protect, this means he can actually 1v1 a slew of Water-types and other bulky annoyances that he is faster than, stalling them out if needed. Having to switch out Arcanine to use Burn Up again isn't great, so you need to make the most out of when and who you target with the move; by playing smartly enough however, you can still switch Arcanine out safely and preserve another Intimidate/Burn Up for later. Just be wary of that typeless status if you do stay in, since Ice or Grass moves will now deal neutral damage, for example. On the flipside to that, if I ever need to HH EQ while typeless Arcanine's on the field...

252 Atk Garchomp Helping Hand Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine in Psychic Terrain: 96-114 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

... a very good chance of putting him into Sitrus Berry activation range from full HP.

Arcanine sits at 124 Speed with the EVs, allowing him to outspeed a large portion of things on the bulkier side up to Tyrantrum4, the majority of which he'd either Burn Up on or try for a last-ditch Toxic. Here's some calcs:
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 76-91 (39.1 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 228 HP / 20 SpD Arcanine: 169-199 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 150-176 (77.3 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 228 HP / 20 SpD Arcanine: 81-96 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 76-90 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 228 HP / 156 Def (typeless) Arcanine: 102-121 (52.5 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 82-97 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sawk Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 161-190 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 228 HP / 20 SpD Arcanine: 169-199 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 228 HP / 156 Def Arcanine: 148-176 (76.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
36+ SpA Arcanine Burn Up vs. 0 HP / 168 SpD Excadrill: 188-224 (101.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Battle No. 250 vs Grimsley: KMSW-WWWW-WWW5-Y88H [Liepard/Honchkrow/Drapion/Mega Houndoom]
- Over in two turns, this team always has a (very) favourable matchup against whatever Grimsley throws at me.

Battle No. 71 vs Veteran Aino: WGXG-WWWW-WWW5-Y8BD [Uxie/Mega Gardevoir/Rotom-Wash/Oranguru]
- Poison Jab KO the Gardevoir after DG chip damage, and I could actually put Psychic Fangs to good use by shattering Uxie's Reflect!

Battle No. 91 vs Bellhop Gilroy: MSFW-WWWW-WWW5-Y8AE [Zoroark/Lapras/Dusknoir/Breloom]
- A very bad start due to that sneaky Zoroark disguised as Breloom, and Lapras Ice Beaming into Lele, but I knew I could finish off Lapras later if I preserved Chomp and simply sac Lele after getting a hit in, and SD Zoroark would need at least two SD's to be threatening since it was at -1 to begin with.

Battle No. 134 vs Youngster Brady: C6ZG-WWWW-WWW5-Y8A5
- Switch out Lele to scout for Scarf Heatran, or Sash, which it was. Dual Pixies come out, and after Thunder Waving, Reflecting and being annoying, what do they end up doing? Copycat Memento, of course! Another thing to add to the list of questionable tactics from the AI. Arcanine proving invaluable again with Toxic and its generally impressive bulk.
 
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Welp I just finished 70 with Z Move Chomp, M-Scizor, and Tapu Fini. Man this team feels great. Had a couple close calls (Lead Gyarados2/3 and Sheer Cold Articuno) but so far so good.

After battle 50 I got Chomp up to 100 and used a gold bottlecap on him, which saved my ass against an Ice Fang from Gyarados (had 4 hp left).

What a fun team.
 

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