Battle Tree Discussion and Records

Quick probability primer for Battle Tree

Pokémon is a game that occasionally rewards knowing (very) basic probability theory and having a calculator at the ready (your computer will do).

Before we jump to solving problems, we need a definition of a probability. Suggestion: a probability is a number between 0 and 1 (inclusive) assigned to an event as its chance to happen, where an event of probability 0 cannot happen, and an event of probability 1 is inevitable. Furthermore, to each event, there is its opposite ("success" -- "failure", or to the same effect, "happening" -- "not happening") and if an event has a probability p, the opposite event has the probability (1 - p). (This ensures that adding them gives 1 -- meaning that it's inevitable that an event either happens, or does not happen: "tertium non datur".)

As a fundamental rule, probabilities that depend on each other are multiplied, not added. If I flip a fair coin, the chance of heads is 1/2; if I flip it twice, the chance of only heads is 1/4, since the second toss depends on the first one landing heads.

(The "%" sign simply means "/100", thus 100% = 1, 80% = 4/5, and 23.81% = 0.2381; whether you express probabilities in percentages is arbitrary.)
* -- multiplication, / -- division, ^ -- exponentiation (raise to power), ! -- factorial, log -- logarithm (to arbitrary base; only in problem 3)

Now we can jump to solving problems:

(1) Given n chances, what's the probability that an event, whose individual chance to happen is p, happens k times?
Concrete example: Across n = 5 turns on which it gets to act, what's the chance of an enemy holding Quick Claw triggering that item (exactly) k = 3 times? (The Quick Claw trigger chance is p = 1/5 = 20%)

Solution: We're looking for the result of
Code:
(n choose k) * p^k * (1-p)^(n-k)
which is generally called the binomial distribution for n, p, k. In our concrete example, (5 choose 3) * (1/5)^3 * (4/5)^(5-3).

(n choose k) is the binomial coefficient. To give a rudimentary explanation, it counts the number of ways you can choose k items from a pool of n total items. After all, we have to consider every possible ordering of three QC turns and two non-QC turns.

You can compute it as n! / (k! * (n-k)!) -- or, which is more convenient manually, from Pascal's triangle (named after Blaise Pascal, although he did not invent it first):
Code:
        1
       1 1
      1 2 1
     1 3 3 1
    1 4 6 4 1
    [...]
Start counting the rows at 0, then (n choose k) is the k-th number in the n-th row, also counting from 0. This means n is the 1st (not 2nd) number in the n-th row, whereas the 0th number is always 1, as is the n-th number. In this case, we need (5 choose 3) -- I've left out the 5th row as an exercise to the reader.
10 = 6 + 4; the complete row is 1 5 10 10 5 1, with the number that we want highlighted. Incidentally, note the triangle's symmetry.

The chance of three QC activations in five turns is thus 5.12%.

If n and k are identical, e.g. you want to know the chance of n = 3 QC activations in a row (i.e. on k = 3 turns), (n choose n) = 1 (there is only one ordering) and (1-p)^(n-n) = 1, so you can simply calculate p^k; in the example, (1/5)^3 = (1/125) = 0.8%.

(2) Under "normal conditions", what's the chance of taking a freeze from an opposing Blizzard in Doubles? (Assume both targets will survive it.)

Solution: We have to consider multiple scenarios leading to the same outcome. Blizzard has to hit (7/10) and freeze (1/10) at least one target, which will happen if Blizzard
Code:
(i)    hits both targets, freezing at least (!) one
(ii)   hits one target, freezing it, and misses the other
You could illustrate this as a (binary) tree of branching scenarios (targets named A and B):
Code:
                                           100% ("Blizzard is used")
                        70% hits A                                    30% doesn't hit A
            70% hits B                 30% doesn't             70% hits B            30% doesn't
    10% freezes A / 10% freezes B     10% freezes A           10% freezes B         0% freezes anything
The basic rule to determine the total probability with such a tree-model is that you multiply probabilities when going vertically through the levels of the tree (i.e. when events depend on previous events), and add them when you're looking at multiple branches on the same level. (In fact, the probabilities associated with the scenarios on any level will always add to 100%: e.g. the third level has 49%, 21%, 21%, 9% outcomes.) If you're puzzled, I'll show you in a minute.

Moreover, you can use inversions to pack several branches into one. For instance, on the path where Blizzard hits both targets, we could just look at the event where both hits fail to freeze, since we're interested in its opposite; if the chance to succeed is 1/10, the chance to fail is (1 - 1/10) = 90%. By the above rule regarding events that depend on each other, we have to multiply the chances of freeze failure. Thus, the chance of failing to freeze either target is (9/10)*(9/10) = 81%, which makes the chance of freezing at least one target (100% - 81%) = 19%, by the rule of opposite events' probabilities.

Ensure you understand that it is not 20%; don't simply add the probabilities of events that depend on each other. However, another correct way to obtain 19% is to consider the overlap between events: there's a 10% chance to freeze A, a 10% chance to freeze B, and a 10% * 10% = 1% chance to freeze both A and B. Indeed, 20% is wrong because you're counting the double-freeze event twice (it's included within the chance to freeze A, as well as within the chance to freeze B); subtracting its probability once corrects the error.

Generally, for sets of events X, Y,
Code:
P(union of X, Y) = P(X) + P(Y) - P(intersection of X, Y)
Either way, for the aforementioned scenarios, we traverse the tree top-to-bottom, multiplying the probabilities:
Code:
(i)     1 * 7/10 * 7/10 * 19%   = 9.31%
(ii)    1 * 7/10 * 3/10 * 10%   = 2.1% -- count this twice, once for A, once for B
Sum:    9.31% + 2 * 2.1%        = 13.51%
We sum up the scenarios in accordance with the basic rule, because they are all leaves (or "end nodes") at the (same) bottom level of the tree. Thus we obtain 13.51%.

Exercise: Assume the Blizzard user is Mesprit4 (@ Wide Lens). What's the probability of taking at least one freeze now? (The Wide Lens increases the accuracy of the holder's moves by 10% of its original value.)
14.8071% -- which is not quite a 10% increase from the previous result.


(3) Assume (arbitrarily) that every battle you fight with your Tree team has a 1% chance of loss; otherwise you win. What's the highest streak number that you have at least coinflip odds (50%) to obtain?

Solution: We're looking to solve (100%-1%)^n = 50%, which means log 0.5 / log 0.99 ~= 68.9, rounded down. That's 68.

Exercise: Same as above, but assume your chance to lose any given battle is 0.1%.
Then you have coinflip odds of a 692 streak.

This does not mean you need exactly two tries to hit said number, but rather that after two tries, you have a 75% chance to have hit said number at least once (if the estimate for your victory chance is correct...).

End guide. If I've forgotten or screwed up anything, or it didn't help you (and you didn't know all this before), let me know.
what are the odds of aroma4 stalling out these huge power iron heads with enough mist pp left to also deplete 16 play roughs

iron heads are stabbed if that boosts the odds. on battle 691 and not feelin that great after your lesson

edit: turns out five gleams will kill mawile so clock is ticking harder
 
I recently grabbed my USun and start to think to try this again after playing ORAS Battle House's Triples, but....

Well, playing a little with Lillie is somewhat fun, but soon I'll have to think more.
I'm thinking of Doubles core based on Triples draft I set up when SuMn was still slowly announced (which well... Triples never happened here),
based on Tapu Koko / Mega-Sceptile / Alo-Raichu core of fast lightning storm on double Discharge + Rod-powered Scept-Snipe.
But I don't even have the material for Mega-Sceptile and I feel somewhat lazy to catch the Tapu (recently caught Tetefu/Lele? and ugh it already took long)....

Hmm, I'm thinking, if I want to make the Tapu Koko / Mega-Sceptile front, what the back row can be?
This is not to mention the weakness, such as Discharge being generally weak as it is spread, bearing many chance of leaving at least one opponent alive.
Admittedly, this will be boring if I'm just in for the BP (I prefer Mantine Surf), but I'm thinking after playing with Lillie, I want to probably try this again for the fun of meeting various NPC to scout. My experience is mostly in Triples though (and not in the high ranks either in Gen 6, and that's years ago). I know the less mon in the field, the more unpredictable it will be; Triples are especially suitable as it is much easier to set formations up against opponents who will mostly need to rely to having us players second-guess their possible target or plain haxx to fight it, hence the much more extensive leaderboard list (plus, to me the more the merrier). But now that it is not in Gen 7, I have to think on Doubles which is less predictable. No more easy setting with our past formations.
And Lillie was fun, but by the end of streak 10 we're already on our last legs :psycry: (admittedly it was because we face Shirona (that Sinnou champion) + Kukui, running full Fairy set; His Primarina managed to OHKO my Mega-Mawile just when I thought I could laugh at her Spiritomb).

(Because I play Japanese USun, I'll also have to either find full list of trainers in other languages, or find Japanese guide, but I already felt more home in Smogon since my ORAS Triple streak. I only remembered that Occult Maniac Anastasia/BezolbeJp and Worker Rasmus/BarelliJp...)
 
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You're probably looking at ice resists and maybe poison / fairy resists for your backline. Or Fake out support for example. Water Types can both act as resist and benefit from Lightning Rod, but will have issues once Koko dies due to taking further damage from terrain boosted electric hits, as well as risking eating your own Discharges.

Bear in mind, Mega Sceptile is atrociously frail despite the high speed, and his moveset is also atrocious. You could look at a stab stab + nature power (will turn into thunderbolt) as moveset I suppose, it looks good in paper but in practice it gets easily murdered by lot of tree sets (expecially scarfers) plus since it'll generally go after Koko, will end up lacking raw power as it will only have the +spatk boost on second turn assuming you use Discharge.
(Also note, you have to run U-turn on Koko instead of Volt Switch, and cannot run Z-crystal due to L-rod redirecting it.)
 
You're probably looking at ice resists and maybe poison / fairy resists for your backline. Or Fake out support for example. Water Types can both act as resist and benefit from Lightning Rod, but will have issues once Koko dies due to taking further damage from terrain boosted electric hits, as well as risking eating your own Discharges.

Bear in mind, Mega Sceptile is atrociously frail despite the high speed, and his moveset is also atrocious. You could look at a stab stab + nature power (will turn into thunderbolt) as moveset I suppose, it looks good in paper but in practice it gets easily murdered by lot of tree sets (expecially scarfers) plus since it'll generally go after Koko, will end up lacking raw power as it will only have the +spatk boost on second turn assuming you use Discharge.
(Also note, you have to run U-turn on Koko instead of Volt Switch, and cannot run Z-crystal due to L-rod redirecting it.)
Ah, quite a detailed answer. I've been thinking of the possible flaws and true, it may have probably worked better in Triples (even though it's probably not as good as many other formations). I was worried of the lack of power in first turn, but... now I also need to think of speed control like always too, is it?

Hmm... maybe I'll try something else. Maybe it's time to move my 0 Spe Celesteela from vanilla Moon and try TR team instead. I'll think of a good core for that.
 
Ah, quite a detailed answer. I've been thinking of the possible flaws and true, it may have probably worked better in Triples (even though it's probably not as good as many other formations). I was worried of the lack of power in first turn, but... now I also need to think of speed control like always too, is it?

Hmm... maybe I'll try something else. Maybe it's time to move my 0 Spe Celesteela from vanilla Moon and try TR team instead. I'll think of a good core for that.
The main issue with Tree compared to previous gen facility is that the power creep of the AI sets is pretty massive.

There's both more/harder specialists (post-legend trainers expecially feature plenty of weather and trick room specialists, as well as some type specialists and some special cases like godforsaken Ezra's full 110+ Spatk compendium), and the AI does have access to both Megas AND Z-moves.
That combined with being doubles and having access to only 4 pokemon limits your opportunity to "carry" more deadweight pokemon.

I love M-sceptile, and while I'm not exactly an almightly god of Tree, all my attempts to make it past 50 with it haven't gone well (I even tried a meme team with megasceptile + primarina lead for the Pledge combo, was funny to play), mainly due to how fragile and comparably weak sceptile himself is (also if you run into a double ice lead it's sad times). There's definitely ways to make him work out, I doubt Koko is one, though, as it's more detrimental than good for Sceptile himself.

If you're keen into going for TR shenenigans... I'd suggest you to poke ReptoAbysmal , he can probably help you craft a good enough team to let you use any of your favourite Pokemon, even less "conventional" ones. I used to love playing TR myself, but I've taken a break from facilities until SwSh release (my last streak was several months ago at this point) as I really can't stand the 3DS screen anymore, the Switch spoiled me :>
 

NoCheese

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Hey folks. Sorry about my absence. I won't go into the details, but serious family stuff arose and took precedence. I myself am fine. I'm extremely grateful to DHR-107 and Eisenherz for getting things updated. While I should be more available now, as you can see I've been (properly) de-moded for inactivity during recent months. I'm happy to return to maintaining this thread if people would like, but if anyone hungry to take on a more prominent role would like to step up and take over, that works too.

Whatever happens, I don't plan to disappear, and I look forward to more discussion about the Tree and whatever facilities follow in the next gen!
 

Eisenherz

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Man with FEAR team uses Tsareena to block priority in the Battle Tree... he never thought THIS would happen!!! :v4::v4::v4:
[DONT CLICK IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH]

Eisenherz was casually trying to improve Togedemaru's lifespan by preventing priority moves from the AI - one of the most common ways the AI uses to stop the cute little level 1 spiky ball from using Endeavor repeatedly. By having Tsareena as a switch-in, he wanted to give the rodent a few extra turns when Fake Out and such were obviously coming their way. However, he was NOT prepared for what he discovered next!

But first, a word from our sponsors, without which this content would not be possible, so make sure to check them out, they are the only reason we exist. Today's sponsor is Iapapa Berries. In a world where the demand for 50% berries is increasing, the offer has become overwhelmingly diverse, and it can be hard to pick the highest quality that our Pokémon really deserve. Iapapa Berries provide the quality and taste that your Pokémon really want, without any of those flashy colours the competitors lure you with. Iapapa Berries are safe for consumption by Physical and Special attackers alike, and are approved for usage in Trick Room as well by certified specialists. Don't wait, order your Iapapa Berries today from Mohn Crops, and use coupon code EISEN for 40% off your first order. That's 40% off an entire crate of sweet, juicy, Iapapa Berries that your Pokémon will thank you for!

It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker. Eisenherz prides himself on offering you the best content, please consider whitelisting him so he can continue to do so.
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In a stupendous turn of events, it turns out that the AI does not learn from attacking into Queenly Majesty with priority, and will continue attempting to do so on the following turns.
This was unexpected, since it is now well-known that the AI learns instantly from Lightning Rod and will not be fooled into using an Electric move again after it has activated. We also know that the AI respects the effects of Psychic Terrain and will only use priority on Flying or Levitating targets when it's in effect. It looks like Queenly Majesty was just overlooked when coding the AI.

Thus, it appears Queenly Majesty (and surely Dazzling as well) can be abused by cosmic brain players to fool the AI.

Here is the HARD PROOF backing up these INSANE claims:


Thank you for watching, please make sure to LIKE, COMMENT, SUBSCRIBE and SHARE. Check me out on Twitter, Twitch and Instagram, and if you enjoyed this post, consider becoming a Patreon, it really helps me out, and you get access to exclusive content on my subscriber-only Discord channel, as well as my private Snapchat ;))) PEACE OUT!
 
Man with FEAR team uses Tsareena to block priority in the Battle Tree... he never thought THIS would happen!!! :v4::v4::v4:
[DONT CLICK IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH]

Eisenherz was casually trying to improve Togedemaru's lifespan by preventing priority moves from the AI - one of the most common ways the AI uses to stop the cute little level 1 spiky ball from using Endeavor repeatedly. By having Tsareena as a switch-in, he wanted to give the rodent a few extra turns when Fake Out and such were obviously coming their way. However, he was NOT prepared for what he discovered next!

But first, a word from our sponsors, without which this content would not be possible, so make sure to check them out, they are the only reason we exist. Today's sponsor is Iapapa Berries. In a world where the demand for 50% berries is increasing, the offer has become overwhelmingly diverse, and it can be hard to pick the highest quality that our Pokémon really deserve. Iapapa Berries provide the quality and taste that your Pokémon really want, without any of those flashy colours the competitors lure you with. Iapapa Berries are safe for consumption by Physical and Special attackers alike, and are approved for usage in Trick Room as well by certified specialists. Don't wait, order your Iapapa Berries today from Mohn Crops, and use coupon code EISEN for 40% off your first order. That's 40% off an entire crate of sweet, juicy, Iapapa Berries that your Pokémon will thank you for!

It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker. Eisenherz prides himself on offering you the best content, please consider whitelisting him so he can continue to do so.
Are you sure?
In a stupendous turn of events, it turns out that the AI does not learn from attacking into Queenly Majesty with priority, and will continue attempting to do so on the following turns.
This was unexpected, since it is now well-known that the AI learns instantly from Lightning Rod and will not be fooled into using an Electric move again after it has activated. We also know that the AI respects the effects of Psychic Terrain and will only use priority on Flying or Levitating targets when it's in effect. It looks like Queenly Majesty was just overlooked when coding the AI.

Thus, it appears Queenly Majesty (and surely Dazzling as well) can be abused by cosmic brain players to fool the AI.

Here is the HARD PROOF backing up these INSANE claims:


Thank you for watching, please make sure to LIKE, COMMENT, SUBSCRIBE and SHARE. Check me out on Twitter, Twitch and Instagram, and if you enjoyed this post, consider becoming a Patreon, it really helps me out, and you get access to exclusive content on my subscriber-only Discord channel, as well as my private Snapchat ;))) PEACE OUT!
That was a very electrifying post there, God bless Tsareena.
 

NoCheese

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Taking some advice from Eisenherz, I've updated the OP to better organize the linked resources, and add Coeur7's probability guide. I've also added a link to the Gen III battle frontier records page. In updating things, I observed that fusionsage's trainer/pokemon search tool appears to be down, replaced by VGC Stats. Any chance of your tree search tool coming back, fusionsage?

EDIT: Looks like the Tree Tool is still live. I probably just accidentally clicked on a VGC link and so couldn't get back to the Tree stuff.
 
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Eisenherz

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Taking some advice from Eisenherz, I've updated the OP to better organize the linked resources, and add Coeur7's probability guide. I've also added a link to the Gen III battle frontier records page. In updating things, I observed that fusionsage's trainer/pokemon search tool appears to be down, replaced by VGC Stats. Any chance of your tree search tool coming back, fusionsage?
Hmmmm it looks like the tool is now hosted on VGC Stats, but still works the same as it used to (at least when using the link of the OP). Does it not load on your end?
 

NoCheese

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Hmmmm it looks like the tool is now hosted on VGC Stats, but still works the same as it used to (at least when using the link of the OP). Does it not load on your end?
Odd. It loads fine now. When I first clicked, I just got the VGC stuff. Maybe I accidently clicked one of the section headers, since playing around with it now it doesn't seem there's a button to get back to the Tree tool once you click on a VGC link. So probably a misclick on my end. But I'm very happy the tool remains live!
 

NoCheese

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After a while away, I came back to my Tree streak. And rather quickly lost. At least it gives me an incentive to complete the long-delayed 1000 win write up. Accordingly: as promised but long delayed, it’s Glisor / Chansey / Mega Slowbro with a completed streak of 1064 wins in Ultra Sun Super Singles!

The team is an outgrowth of my 1067 win Dragonite / Chansey / Mega Slowbro team from the Maison. Yes, my best Super Singles streaks in the past two generations ended just a few wins apart. Crazy! Battles in the 1060s are not nice to me. The Maison team worked (but less effectively) in the Tree. Dragonite is still a good lead, but in the Tree, with most trainers using both sets 3 and 4, fewer enemy leads provide clear safe set-up opportunities for Dragonite. Even worse, the set 3/4 dilemma means Dragonite doesn’t always immediately know which Pokemon it should switch to, and in such a situation is forced to stay in a turn even if it likely will have to switch out. This is pretty frustrating, since Dragonite is a terrible scout, and really wants to either set up or switch out immediately, to either take advantage a favorable matchup or preserve Multiscale.

So the big question for me was whether I could find a lead that could scout effectively, continue to draw favorable attacks for Chansey and Slowbro to switch into, and still have the ability to beat a lot of Pokemon by itself. Gliscor seemed an ideal fit. With Protect, Substitute, and Poison Heal, Gliscor can safely scout on turn 1, stall out a ton of attacks, and usually set up a safe switch. While things don’t always go quite that smoothly, the basic Scout, stall if necessary, switch, set-up, and win approach got me a large fraction of my wins.

Note that this because this team is an outgrowth of my earlier Chansey / Mega Slowbro teams, it’s worth reading my previous writeups about those teams, as some details of team design and proper play are surely better presented there.

Here are the links:
1067 wins with Dragonite / Mega Slowbro / Chansey in the Maison
319 wins with Dragonite / Mega Slowbro / Chansey in the Moon Tree


Gliscor @_Toxic Orb
Train: Poison Heal
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, - Spa)
-Earthquake
-Protect
-Substitute
-Toxic

Stats: 177 / 115 / 145 / 58 / 103 /159
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 212 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 60 / 236


-

Chansey @_Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
-Seismic Toss
-Minimize
-Substitute
-Soft Boiled

Stats: 326 / 17 / 57 (85) / 56 / 126 (189) / 111
IVs: 31 / X / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 4 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 244

-

Slowbro @_Slowbronite
Trait: Regenerator —> Shell Armor
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Att)
-Scald
-Iron Defense
-Calm Mind
-Rest

Stats (pre-Mega Evolution): 201 / 85 / 178 / 121 / 101 / 51
Stats (post-Mega Evolution): 201 / 85 / 255 / 151 / 101 / 51
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 244 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 4

The Gliscor spread is VaporeonIce’s Jolly Gliscor spread from the Maison, used on his Mega Lopunny / Gliscor / Quagsire team. I bred the Pokemon in 5th gen, EVed it much later to a Maison spread, and then set it aside for years. I didn’t re-theorymon it, besides deciding I wanted to try Jolly over a defensive nature since I find it much easier to play fast Substitute users. I now know I do want to continue to outspeed Mega Sharpedo. Currently Gliscor has 159 Speed, and the Sharpedo has 157. So at most, I could drop by 8 EV (1 stat point). Sadly (foreshadowing!) Gliscor can’t outspeed Mimikyu3 and its 162 Speed even at full investment.

Gliscor is a beautiful lead. On foes that assuredly lack a set-up move, Gliscor can freely Protect on turn 1, giving Toxic Orb time to activate, usually revealing the enemy’s set, and letting me know whether I can immediately switch to Chansey or Gliscor, whether I should stall out a threatening move before making such a switch, or, less frequently, whether I need to attack or Toxic. Where the foe might be able to set up, first turn Protect can be a liability, so in those situations, I’m often better of leading with Substitute, so that Gliscor doesn’t effectively lose a turn while scouting. The Sub then makes it easier to Sub-stall (even if the foe is now faster), or Earthquake or Toxic, if the enemy’s set is not a good one for trying to stall out. The one place Gliscor badly loses to Dragonite is that against foes that use Taunt or are too threatening to try to stall or buy a turn for a switch, Gliscor’s smashing power is much lower. Outrage, even unboosted, cuts down a lot more threats than does Earthquake.

Gliscor’s typing is delightful, drawing Ice-type attacks (which Chansey and Slowbro handle well) while providing immunities to Ground-type and Electric-type attacks (allowing for lots of switch stall fun). The Ground-type immunity also protects from Fissure, making Snorlax4 and Dugtrio3 less dangerous. Better yet, since Giscor will be poisoned after the first turn of battle, it’s immune to status in later turns, giving the opportunity to freely switch back into status moves, which turn even more foes into easy stall bait. While this spread is not the bulkiest, Gliscor still can survive enough attacks to start the Sub-stall chain even against faster Pokemon. And it’s amazing how fast Gliscor can heal back up once damaged. An extra Protect before switching, a missed attack here or there, and a badly wounded Gliscor seemingly fit only for stalling can rapidly Poison Heal itself into being able to absorb another attack.

--

Chansey still uses my “fast Chansey” spread from the Maison. One slight change is that Speed isn’t maxed now, since 112 has a number of Speed-ties, while 111 only Speed ties with Clawitzer4, which beats Chansey if locked into Aura Sphere and loses otherwise.

Chansey is amazing. Very few Special Attackers can threaten it, and once set up, it can beat a large number of physical attackers too, especially those it outspeeds, since moving faster means you know exactly when you need to re-Sub and when you can safely attack. Even though it doesn’t do much damage, Seismic Toss can still sweep a lot of teams! Sub is so much easier to use on things you outrun, so I love the fast spread. Although Gliscor is already good at this, Chansey is useful against OHKO users like Articuno2 and Walrein4 (a further advantage of fast Chansey is outspeeding Articuno2), but remember not to switch it directly into a potential OHKO move.

Chansey’s PP are limited, so need to be careful about stalling too aggressively with it, especially when you don’t yet know all of your opponent’s team. Where switch-stalling can save PP, do it! Chansey is also hindered by the inability to hit Ghost-types. Stalling (especially switch-stalling) can often handle things, but certain Ghost-types can cause more trouble. Mega Gengar prevents switch-stalling, and stalling it demands a ton of PP, while the especially evil Mimikyu3 can set up on you. Against most Ghost-types, however, Chansey usually looks to switch-stall, if its partners can’t set up unaided. Thankfully, Ghost-types create lots of switch-stall opportunities since Chansey can freely switch into Ghost-type attacks, so if the enemy Pokemon will use an attack that either plays into Gliscor’s immunities (Thunderbolt, for example) or can be healed off by Slowbro’s Regenerator (Froslass’s Icy Wind and Ice Shard come to mind), then you are set.

Also remember the danger of moves like Dragon Rush and Body Slam which hit automatically and do double damage if you’ve used Minimize. Snorlax4, for example, can mash Chansey, even if it’s fully set up.

--

Slowbro is the Jelly to Chansey’s peanut butter. The two play together so well. Where Chansey can easily set-up on most special attackers, Gliscor loves to set-up on physical ones. The spread is a fairly standard max Defense, with a slight modification to take advantage of Level 50 EV mechanics. Slowbro’s huge luxury is that, thanks to its immunity to critical hits (post Mega Evolution), and protection from status through Scald and Sleep, it can get away with using two boosting moves, rather than needing to carry Substitute. OHKO moves are still an issue, of course, but otherwise, once Slowbro is able to set up, there are few things that can stop it, even on the special side. But it’s important to remember that Slowbro isn’t quite as reliable an immediate switch-in to physical attackers as Chansey is to special ones. Slowbro’s extremely low Speed means that when switching against most opponents, it will need to take two attacks before it gets to act itself, one on the switch turn, and one before on the next turn. Moreover, on the switch turn, Slowbro will not be Mega Evolved, and so will be vulnerable to critical hits, which can turn a safe switch into a risky one. Where you have doubts, run the calcs! Sometimes one has to use Gliscor stall out the attack that is most dangerous to Slowbro before switching in and setting up.

Mega Sharpedo is an example of a physical attacker that scares Slowbro. Consider a 252 / 252 Mega Slowbro, identical to mine save for one more HP. On a free switch, Slowbro Mega Evolves and Iron Defenses, taking 114 - 134 from Crunch. On the next turn, at +2 (and aiming to Rest) he takes 56-68. Max rolls on both sum to 202, exactly enough to KO. This 1/256 risk would be tolerable, except for two things. First is that a free switch requires letting something else faint, which is not typically recommended. And where the free switch is not available, a switch into Ice Fang, normally not a problem, becomes a big issue, since that small damage is enough to make the 2HKO much more likely. Worse, Crunch can drop Defense. So with bad luck on Defense drops from Crunch, even on a free switch, the risk is real. Jolly Gliscor saves the day here. It outspeeds Mega Slowbro, and can stall out Ice Fang. Ideally, we’d then stall out Crunch and switch over to Slowbro, but since the AI is erratic once it can’t OHKO, one often gets a Substitute to survive a Poison Jab, allowing for an easy kill with Toxic.

While Slowbro usually wants to Mega Evolve as soon as it’s in battle, Regenerator is nonetheless very important to the set. Most important is that Regenerator allows many more switch stall opportunities, since it can keep Slowbro at full health even after taking a bunch of hits from a low damage attack. Regenerator also eases the occasional double switch to Chansey. Consider an opposing lead Mega Alakazam, identified after a first turn Protect form Gliscor. Naturally, I want to get Chansey in, but I don’t want to risk a painful Special Defense drop from Psychic, as that would make Focus Blast more scary. So instead of switching directly to Chansey, I instead switch first to Slowbro, who takes the (resisted) Psychic. Even resisted, the move does a good bit of damage to Slowbro, but Regenerator really reduces the sting once I switch out next turn. And switch out I will, knowing that Chansey will face an ineffective Shadow Ball on the switch. Double switches aren’t incredibly common, but they are useful enough that you should always keep them in mind, and Regenerator makes them easier to pull off. Regenerator’s final advantage is that it can help cover for mistakes. Over a long streak, one is prone to screw up occasionally. When you have that “Oops!” moment after improperly switching to Slowbro, Regenerator often undoes much of the damage.

Particular care must be taken when facing the following Pokemon. This list is not intended to be 100% comprehensive (lots of odd interactions can arise over a long streak), but these are Pokemon I always try to keep in mind.

Virizion4: Extremely threatening on paper. Leaf Blade is super effective against Slowbro, Sacred Sword bypasses Defense and Evasion Boosts and so eats Chansey, Swords Dance makes its attacks much more threatening, and Rest checks Toxic stalling. In practice, while it remains a threat, Virizion4 is less scary than it seems. The key is that its attacks are weak enough that even boosted, Mega Slowbro can tank them. At +6 Attack (facing a +6 Defense Mega Slowbro) Leaf Blade only does 23.8-27.8%, while +6 Sacred Sword (even ignoring Slowbro’s Defense boosts) only does 21.8-25.8%.

Azelf3: Nasty Plot + Psyshock means that even Chansey is vunerable to this Special Attacking beast. Happily, it likes to over-boost and Nasty Plot multiple times before attacking. Against a lead Azelf where Azelf3 is a possibility, it’s essential to Substitute first with Gliscor. Protecting into Nasty Plot is potentially disasterous. After Subbing, land a Toxic, and Sub/Protect stall with Gliscor.

Gyarados4: Mega Gyarados can boost with Dragon Dance, while Mold Breaker + Crunch means it can threaten to beat Mega Slowbro with a critical hit. The correct play is to Sub first turn (to determine whether Gyarados is mega or not, and not waste a turn with Protect into a potential Mega Dragon Dance, which would be disasterous). Mega Gyarados likes to over-Dance (often Dancing 3 times before attacking), so after Subbing, the plan is to Toxic, stall, and win.

Sharpedo3: As discussed earlier, Mega Sharpedo is one of the very few non-boosting physical attacking Pokemon that can threaten Slowbro even with a free switch. Thankfully, Gliscor can beat it, either by stalling out Ice Fang and then Crunch and allowing Slowbro to set up, or more commonly, due to the AI’s erratic attack selection when nothing OHKOs, getting a Sub to survive against Poison Jab and then winning with Toxic.

Haxorus4: This looks like it should be a scary lead, since it can both set up and phaze, but it typically over Dances. You could go for the Substitute and stall approach, but that plays very poorly against Haxorus3, which will outspeed you and hit you hard before you sub. Thus, it’s correct to just attack against lead Haxorus.

Serperior4: Harmless 2/3 of the time, but incredibly deadly if it is Contrary. This is one of the few pure special attackers that can muscle through Chansey. Faster than Gliscor, with a good initial damage roll it can do enough damage to prevent a turn 2 Sub. Protect on turn one, Sub on 2 is the correct play. If the damage roll is low on turn 2, you’ll be able to resolve a Substitute and stall it. If the damage is high, the Sub will fail, but at least you’ll be able to Protect again on 3. Hope to get lucky with a second consecutive Sub on turn 4, but if you fail, Leaf Storm will KO Gliscor, and then Chansey has to come into +4 Serperior with 1 PP left. Happily, +4 Leaf Storm only OHKOs Chansey on a crit, so barring that, Serperior will be out of PP and you’ll be alright. But the biggest fear is a crit on turn 2, which will OHKO Gliscor, and leave you facing a +2 Contrary Serperior with 3 PP left, which can beat Chansey even on a free switch, reducing you to just Slowbro to cover the remaining two foes. Note that this is a place where going with Jolly Gliscor hurts, because with more Special Defense, Gliscor could reliably (barring a crit) Sub on turn 2 and then win easily.

Mimikyu3: Mimikyu all prove really annoying for this team, as the relatively high Speed, immunity to Seismic toss, and need to break Disguise are all very irksome, but Mimikyu3 is especially scary, since it can boost and then hit very hard. In a lead situation, Gliscor needs to break the Disguise immediately. Since even after Disguise is broken, Earthquake only 3HKOs, I prefer to Toxic and stall. Note that Mimikyu3 outspeeds Gliscor, however, so there is serious risk here, especially if Toxic misses. I lost to this Pokemon.

Skarmory4: A big pain, especially in the lead. Gliscor can’t touch it, so I have to give it a free turn, and the combination of hazards, Whirlwind, and Toxic can be dangerous, and soften me up for teammates, while limiting future switching options.

Scizor3 and 4: Scizor3 can set up and hit extremely hard, making an immediate switch to Slowbro unreliable. Scizor4 can’t set up, but hits like a tank even unboosted and can Roost off damage, especially frustrating to Gliscor, which can’t Toxic it. The best approach to lead Scizor is to open with an Earthquake from Gliscor. If it’s Scizor3, Gliscor can muscle through it, while if it’s Scizor4, sacing Gliscor gives Slowbro a free switch, which lets it set up and win.

Reuniclus4: Not a true threat if you pay attention, but keep in mind that just like in the Maison, the Tree AI will still try to Trick “newer” mega stones like Slowbronite. Accordingly, it’s a bad idea to switch Slowbro into Chansey against Reuniculus, as you risk getting Chansey crippled on the switch turn.

Snorlax4: Fissure prevents Slowbro from setting up, and Body Slam means that fully minimized Chansey, instead of winning easily, is a sitting duck. Thankfully, Gliscor beats Slowbro4 (don’t forget that Immunity can stop Toxic, requiring a slower grind), but if you’ve been forced to lose Gliscor earlier (thankfully rare), Snorlax can spell trouble.

Naturally, since most of these videos show close calls, they don’t typically show the team (and often my play) at their best. But I think it’s useful to show what happens when things get tough.

413: My first “should have lost" moment
RXJW-WWWW-WWX6-ZNA4

Thundurus1, Cobalion2, Terrakion2. I should have lost here. Bad play (losing Gliscor unnecessarily) set me up to lose to Thundurus1. Worst part is because of the switch out on turn 1, I knew it was Thundurs1 already, I knew I should save Gliscor, and yet I stuck with “default” Terrakion strategy rather than updating my play to apply the extra information. Saved by the fact that the AI, as it does, randomly used Protect on a turn it could have stuck a Toxic on my solo Chansey. Scary.

575: A little bit of everything
R9SW-WWWW-WWX6-ZN96

Mega Alakazam / Gengar3 / Porygon-Z. Protect followed by the double switch to identify Mega Alakazam and get Chansey in cleanly, followed by Chansey stalling Gengar out of Energy Ball, follwed by abusing Regenerator to switch-stall Gengar the rest of the way to preserve Chansey’s PP. One of those easy battles that nonetheless takes forever, but at least shows some of the team’s nuances.

603: The second “should have lost” battle
35ZG-WWWW-WWX6-ZNW6

Azelf3, Tornadus3, Kommo-o3: Shows the extreme danger of switching turn 1 against a possible Azelf3 Nasty Plot. Sub, then Toxic is correct. In any case, I should have lost here, but was saved by the inexplicable switch from a set up Azelf that was ready to Psyshock my Chansey dead into Tornadus. Why!? I’ll take it, but still confuzzled. This battle also shows the danger of battling while distracted.

923: The AI tries to switch-stall me
LRHG-WWWW-WWX6-ZMRU

Venusaur3 / Decidueye4 / Serperior4. A silly situation where, with only Chansey and Slowbro alive, the AI’s Decidueye4 and no-PP Serperior4 tried to essentially switch stall me, Serperior switching to Decidueye who would Baton Pass back. Note: Contrary Serperior could have been problematic here.

1000: Nothing too special, save for the lovely 4th digit win
725G-WWWW-WWWV-Q6XU

Altaria3, Gallade3, Magnezone4. Wally led with Mega Alatria. I correctly Subbed rather than Protected so didn’t get punished by the Dance. Missed first Toxic, but Altaria over-Danced so no problem. I got slightly sloppy on Gallade3, and didn’t carefully check for X-Scissor Defense drops, and so threw in an extra unnecessary Iron Defense as a precaution, but otherwise, super straight forward fight, once the AI showed it was Gallade3 (and not a Mega Evolution locked out Gallade4, which has Destiny Bond and so requires more care).

1065: The loss
E58G-WWWW-WWX6-Z3LV

Florges1, Mimikyu3, Primarina4. After a free set-up and easy win for Chansey against Florges1, one of the biggest joke Pokemon in Super Singles, Mimikyu3, a great Chansey counter, comes in. I have two options here. The first is to try to stall out Wood Hammer and Play Rough. I’m set up behind a Sub with max evasion, and only have to stall out 25 PP of attacks. The difficulty is that Mimikyu can set up with Swords Dance and also outspeeds me, so after two Dances any turn I don’t preemptively Substitute potentially leaves me vulnerable to a hit breaking the Sub and a second hit, KOing me on the next turn, before I can resub. Stalling is still probably my best line here, since having to switch back into Gliscor and then having to break the Disguise gives Mimikyu several turns to beat on me or set up. But I went with the Gliscor option. Now I had to break Mimikyu’s Disguise and Toxic it with Gliscor. But rather than using Toxic right away, I went for a Sub first. Risky call, but it looked like I got rewarded when Mimikyu used Swords Dance. And then I made a bigger error. Rather than using Toxic as soon as the Sub was up, I got greedy and ran a Protect to gain a few more HP before using Toxic next turn. The idea was that I was behind a Sub and using Protect, so of course I’d be safe to Toxic the next turn, making the Protect a free way to gain some health. Except I forgot about Mimikyu’s Z-stone. Mimikyu used Twinkle Tackle, and even through Protect, it broke my Sub! So Gliscor fainted next turn before I got to Toxic. Whoops! Obviously, Mimikyu3 is always scary, especially here when I chose to switch Gliscor back into it, and a miss on Toxic would have ended me even if I had played correctly, but this is still an example of a seemingly small misplay, failing to identify the chance of a Z-attack breaking my Sub through my Protect, proving fatal. It admittedly came after other misplays, but the lesson remains the same regardless. The little things matter on big streaks. It’s possible I misplayed even more with Chansey in the end, too; after Gliscor fainted I tried to luck into pilfering a KO with Wood Hammer recoil damage by spamming Soft Boiled; I probably should have tried to get really lucky with Minimize. But once I’m in Minimize land, we’re back to asking why I didn’t just tough things out with my set up Chansey earlier. Yuck.

The team is good, and I like it. Mega Slowbro can’t just be thrown onto a random team and expected to succeed, but paired with Chansey, it really does nice work. And given the greater need for scouting in the Tree relative to the Maison, thanks to the plethora of trainers using both sets 3 and 4, I believe Gliscor clearly earns its keep over Dragonite as a lead. All that said, I do think I was reasonably fortunate on this streak, and I don’t think I’m going to use this team again in the Tree to shoot for a higher win total. As my videos show, I escaped two “should have lost” battles before my final loss on battle 1065. Though good play could have avoided those close calls, there is something of a ceiling (albeit a high one) on this team. Threats like Mimikyu3 and Azelf3 exist, and untimely misses with Toxic against them could prove fatal. Being honest, I think I’d struggle to play this team to 2000, so chasing that number one spot is out. But that’s hardly a disaster. Very few teams really have what it takes to chase the top spot on the leaderboard by the end of a generation, and getting to 1000 wins still satisfies me. In short, this team was well worth the time and effort to build and play. I had fun with this squad, and if you give it a try, I suspect you will too.
 
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After a while away, I came back to my Tree streak. And rather quickly lost. At least it gives me an incentive to complete the long-delayed 1000 win write up. Accordingly: as promised but long delayed, it’s Glisor / Chansey / Mega Slowbro with a completed streak of 1064 wins in Ultra Sun Super Singles!

The team is an outgrowth of my 1067 win Dragonite / Chansey / Mega Slowbro team from the Maison. Yes, my best Super Singles streaks in the past two generations ended just a few wins apart. Crazy! Battles in the 1060s are not nice to me. The Maison team worked (but less effectively) in the Tree. Dragonite is still a good lead, but in the Tree, with most trainers using both sets 3 and 4, fewer enemy leads provide clear safe set-up opportunities for Dragonite. Even worse, the set 3/4 dilemma means Dragonite doesn’t always immediately know which Pokemon it should switch to, and in such a situation is forced to stay in a turn even if it likely will have to switch out. This is pretty frustrating, since Dragonite is a terrible scout, and really wants to either set up or switch out immediately, to either take advantage a favorable matchup or preserve Multiscale.

So the big question for me was whether I could find a lead that could scout effectively, continue to draw favorable attacks for Chansey and Slowbro to switch into, and still have the ability to beat a lot of Pokemon by itself. Gliscor seemed an ideal fit. With Protect, Substitute, and Poison Heal, Gliscor can safely scout on turn 1, stall out a ton of attacks, and usually set up a safe switch. While things don’t always go quite that smoothly, the basic Scout, stall if necessary, switch, set-up, and win approach got me a large fraction of my wins.

Note that this because this team is an outgrowth of my earlier Chansey / Mega Slowbro teams, it’s worth reading my previous writeups about those teams, as some details of team design and proper play are surely better presented there.

Here are the links:
1067 wins with Dragonite / Mega Slowbro / Chansey in the Maison
319 wins with Dragonite / Mega Slowbro / Chansey in the Moon Tree


Gliscor @_Toxic Orb
Train: Poison Heal
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, - Spa)
-Earthquake
-Protect
-Substitute
-Toxic

Stats: 177 / 115 / 145 / 58 / 103 /159
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 212 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 60 / 236


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Chansey @_Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
-Seismic Toss
-Minimize
-Substitute
-Soft Boiled

Stats: 326 / 17 / 57 (85) / 56 / 126 (189) / 111
IVs: 31 / X / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 4 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 244

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Slowbro @_Slowbronite
Trait: Regenerator —> Shell Armor
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Att)
-Scald
-Iron Defense
-Calm Mind
-Rest

Stats (pre-Mega Evolution): 201 / 85 / 178 / 121 / 101 / 51
Stats (post-Mega Evolution): 201 / 85 / 255 / 151 / 101 / 51
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 244 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 4

The Gliscor spread is VaporeonIce’s Jolly Gliscor spread from the Maison, used on his Mega Lopunny / Gliscor / Quagsire team. I bred the Pokemon in 5th gen, EVed it much later to a Maison spread, and then set it aside for years. I didn’t re-theorymon it, besides deciding I wanted to try Jolly over a defensive nature since I find it much easier to play fast Substitute users. I now know I do want to continue to outspeed Mega Sharpedo. Currently Gliscor has 159 Speed, and the Sharpedo has 157. So at most, I could drop by 8 EV (1 stat point). Sadly (foreshadowing!) Gliscor can’t outspeed Mimikyu3 and its 162 Speed even at full investment.

Gliscor is a beautiful lead. On foes that assuredly lack a set-up move, Gliscor can freely Protect on turn 1, giving Toxic Orb time to activate, usually revealing the enemy’s set, and letting me know whether I can immediately switch to Chansey or Gliscor, whether I should stall out a threatening move before making such a switch, or, less frequently, whether I need to attack or Toxic. Where the foe might be able to set up, first turn Protect can be a liability, so in those situations, I’m often better of leading with Substitute, so that Gliscor doesn’t effectively lose a turn while scouting. The Sub then makes it easier to Sub-stall (even if the foe is now faster), or Earthquake or Toxic, if the enemy’s set is not a good one for trying to stall out. The one place Gliscor badly loses to Dragonite is that against foes that use Taunt or are too threatening to try to stall or buy a turn for a switch, Gliscor’s smashing power is much lower. Outrage, even unboosted, cuts down a lot more threats than does Earthquake.

Gliscor’s typing is delightful, drawing Ice-type attacks (which Chansey and Slowbro handle well) while providing immunities to Ground-type and Electric-type attacks (allowing for lots of switch stall fun). The Ground-type immunity also protects from Fissure, making Snorlax4 and Dugtrio3 less dangerous. Better yet, since Giscor will be poisoned after the first turn of battle, it’s immune to status in later turns, giving the opportunity to freely switch back into status moves, which turn even more foes into easy stall bait. While this spread is not the bulkiest, Gliscor still can survive enough attacks to start the Sub-stall chain even against faster Pokemon. And it’s amazing how fast Gliscor can heal back up once damaged. An extra Protect before switching, a missed attack here or there, and a badly wounded Gliscor seemingly fit only for stalling can rapidly Poison Heal itself into being able to absorb another attack.

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Chansey still uses my “fast Chansey” spread from the Maison. One slight change is that Speed isn’t maxed now, since 112 has a number of Speed-ties, while 111 only Speed ties with Clawitzer4, which beats Chansey if locked into Aura Sphere and loses otherwise.

Chansey is amazing. Very few Special Attackers can threaten it, and once set up, it can beat a large number of physical attackers too, especially those it outspeeds, since moving faster means you know exactly when you need to re-Sub and when you can safely attack. Even though it doesn’t do much damage, Seismic Toss can still sweep a lot of teams! Sub is so much easier to use on things you outrun, so I love the fast spread. Although Gliscor is already good at this, Chansey is useful against OHKO users like Articuno2 and Walrein4 (a further advantage of fast Chansey is outspeeding Articuno2), but remember not to switch it directly into a potential OHKO move.

Chansey’s PP are limited, so need to be careful about stalling too aggressively with it, especially when you don’t yet know all of your opponent’s team. Where switch-stalling can save PP, do it! Chansey is also hindered by the inability to hit Ghost-types. Stalling (especially switch-stalling) can often handle things, but certain Ghost-types can cause more trouble. Mega Gengar prevents switch-stalling, and stalling it demands a ton of PP, while the especially evil Mimikyu3 can set up on you. Against most Ghost-types, however, Chansey usually looks to switch-stall, if its partners can’t set up unaided. Thankfully, Ghost-types create lots of switch-stall opportunities since Chansey can freely switch into Ghost-type attacks, so if the enemy Pokemon will use an attack that either plays into Gliscor’s immunities (Thunderbolt, for example) or can be healed off by Slowbro’s Regenerator (Froslass’s Icy Wind and Ice Shard come to mind), then you are set.

Also remember the danger of moves like Dragon Rush and Body Slam which hit automatically and do double damage if you’ve used Minimize. Snorlax4, for example, can mash Chansey, even if it’s fully set up.

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Slowbro is the Jelly to Chansey’s peanut butter. The two play together so well. Where Chansey can easily set-up on most special attackers, Gliscor loves to set-up on physical ones. The spread is a fairly standard max Defense, with a slight modification to take advantage of Level 50 EV mechanics. Slowbro’s huge luxury is that, thanks to its immunity to critical hits (post Mega Evolution), and protection from status through Scald and Sleep, it can get away with using two boosting moves, rather than needing to carry Substitute. OHKO moves are still an issue, of course, but otherwise, once Slowbro is able to set up, there are few things that can stop it, even on the special side. But it’s important to remember that Slowbro isn’t quite as reliable an immediate switch-in to physical attackers as Chansey is to special ones. Slowbro’s extremely low Speed means that when switching against most opponents, it will need to take two attacks before it gets to act itself, one on the switch turn, and one before on the next turn. Moreover, on the switch turn, Slowbro will not be Mega Evolved, and so will be vulnerable to critical hits, which can turn a safe switch into a risky one. Where you have doubts, run the calcs! Sometimes one has to use Gliscor stall out the attack that is most dangerous to Slowbro before switching in and setting up.

Mega Sharpedo is an example of a physical attacker that scares Slowbro. Consider a 252 / 252 Mega Slowbro, identical to mine save for one more HP. On a free switch, Slowbro Mega Evolves and Iron Defenses, taking 114 - 134 from Crunch. On the next turn, at +2 (and aiming to Rest) he takes 56-68. Max rolls on both sum to 202, exactly enough to KO. This 1/256 risk would be tolerable, except for two things. First is that a free switch requires letting something else faint, which is not typically recommended. And where the free switch is not available, a switch into Ice Fang, normally not a problem, becomes a big issue, since that small damage is enough to make the 2HKO much more likely. Worse, Crunch can drop Defense. So with bad luck on Defense drops from Crunch, even on a free switch, the risk is real. Jolly Gliscor saves the day here. It outspeeds Mega Slowbro, and can stall out Ice Fang. Ideally, we’d then stall out Crunch and switch over to Slowbro, but since the AI is erratic once it can’t OHKO, one often gets a Substitute to survive a Poison Jab, allowing for an easy kill with Toxic.

While Slowbro usually wants to Mega Evolve as soon as it’s in battle, Regenerator is nonetheless very important to the set. Most important is that Regenerator allows many more switch stall opportunities, since it can keep Slowbro at full health even after taking a bunch of hits from a low damage attack. Regenerator also eases the occasional double switch to Chansey. Consider an opposing lead Mega Alakazam, identified after a first turn Protect form Gliscor. Naturally, I want to get Chansey in, but I don’t want to risk a painful Special Defense drop from Psychic, as that would make Focus Blast more scary. So instead of switching directly to Chansey, I instead switch first to Slowbro, who takes the (resisted) Psychic. Even resisted, the move does a good bit of damage to Slowbro, but Regenerator really reduces the sting once I switch out next turn. And switch out I will, knowing that Chansey will face an ineffective Shadow Ball on the switch. Double switches aren’t incredibly common, but they are useful enough that you should always keep them in mind, and Regenerator makes them easier to pull off. Regenerator’s final advantage is that it can help cover for mistakes. Over a long streak, one is prone to screw up occasionally. When you have that “Oops!” moment after improperly switching to Slowbro, Regenerator often undoes much of the damage.

Particular care must be taken when facing the following Pokemon. This list is not intended to be 100% comprehensive (lots of odd interactions can arise over a long streak), but these are Pokemon I always try to keep in mind.

Virizion4: Extremely threatening on paper. Leaf Blade is super effective against Slowbro, Sacred Sword bypasses Defense and Evasion Boosts and so eats Chansey, Swords Dance makes its attacks much more threatening, and Rest checks Toxic stalling. In practice, while it remains a threat, Virizion4 is less scary than it seems. The key is that its attacks are weak enough that even boosted, Mega Slowbro can tank them. At +6 Attack (facing a +6 Defense Mega Slowbro) Leaf Blade only does 23.8-27.8%, while +6 Sacred Sword (even ignoring Slowbro’s Defense boosts) only does 21.8-25.8%.

Azelf3: Nasty Plot + Psyshock means that even Chansey is vunerable to this Special Attacking beast. Happily, it likes to over-boost and Nasty Plot multiple times before attacking. Against a lead Azelf where Azelf3 is a possibility, it’s essential to Substitute first with Gliscor. Protecting into Nasty Plot is potentially disasterous. After Subbing, land a Toxic, and Sub/Protect stall with Gliscor.

Gyarados4: Mega Gyarados can boost with Dragon Dance, while Mold Breaker + Crunch means it can threaten to beat Mega Slowbro with a critical hit. The correct play is to Sub first turn (to determine whether Gyarados is mega or not, and not waste a turn with Protect into a potential Mega Dragon Dance, which would be disasterous). Mega Gyarados likes to over-Dance (often Dancing 3 times before attacking), so after Subbing, the plan is to Toxic, stall, and win.

Sharpedo3: As discussed earlier, Mega Sharpedo is one of the very few non-boosting physical attacking Pokemon that can threaten Slowbro even with a free switch. Thankfully, Gliscor can beat it, either by stalling out Ice Fang and then Crunch and allowing Slowbro to set up, or more commonly, due to the AI’s erratic attack selection when nothing OHKOs, getting a Sub to survive against Poison Jab and then winning with Toxic.

Haxorus4: This looks like it should be a scary lead, since it can both set up and phaze, but it typically over Dances. You could go for the Substitute and stall approach, but that plays very poorly against Haxorus3, which will outspeed you and hit you hard before you sub. Thus, it’s correct to just attack against lead Haxorus.

Serperior4: Harmless 2/3 of the time, but incredibly deadly if it is Contrary. This is one of the few pure special attackers that can muscle through Chansey. Faster than Gliscor, with a good initial damage roll it can do enough damage to prevent a turn 2 Sub. Protect on turn one, Sub on 2 is the correct play. If the damage roll is low on turn 2, you’ll be able to resolve a Substitute and stall it. If the damage is high, the Sub will fail, but at least you’ll be able to Protect again on 3. Hope to get lucky with a second consecutive Sub on turn 4, but if you fail, Leaf Storm will KO Gliscor, and then Chansey has to come into +4 Serperior with 1 PP left. Happily, +4 Leaf Storm only OHKOs Chansey on a crit, so barring that, Serperior will be out of PP and you’ll be alright. But the biggest fear is a crit on turn 2, which will OHKO Gliscor, and leave you facing a +2 Contrary Serperior with 3 PP left, which can beat Chansey even on a free switch, reducing you to just Slowbro to cover the remaining two foes. Note that this is a place where going with Jolly Gliscor hurts, because with more Special Defense, Gliscor could reliably (barring a crit) Sub on turn 2 and then win easily.

Mimikyu3: Mimikyu all prove really annoying for this team, as the relatively high Speed, immunity to Seismic toss, and need to break Disguise are all very irksome, but Mimikyu3 is especially scary, since it can boost and then hit very hard. In a lead situation, Gliscor needs to break the Disguise immediately. Since even after Disguise is broken, Earthquake only 3HKOs, I prefer to Toxic and stall. Note that Mimikyu3 outspeeds Gliscor, however, so there is serious risk here, especially if Toxic misses. I lost to this Pokemon.

Skarmory4: A big pain, especially in the lead. Gliscor can’t touch it, so I have to give it a free turn, and the combination of hazards, Whirlwind, and Toxic can be dangerous, and soften me up for teammates, while limiting future switching options.

Scizor3 and 4: Scizor3 can set up and hit extremely hard, making an immediate switch to Slowbro unreliable. Scizor4 can’t set up, but hits like a tank even unboosted and can Roost off damage, especially frustrating to Gliscor, which can’t Toxic it. The best approach to lead Scizor is to open with an Earthquake from Gliscor. If it’s Scizor3, Gliscor can muscle through it, while if it’s Scizor4, sacing Gliscor gives Slowbro a free switch, which lets it set up and win.

Reuniclus4: Not a true threat if you pay attention, but keep in mind that just like in the Maison, the Tree AI will still try to Trick “newer” mega stones like Slowbronite. Accordingly, it’s a bad idea to switch Slowbro into Chansey against Reuniculus, as you risk getting Chansey crippled on the switch turn.

Snorlax4: Fissure prevents Slowbro from setting up, and Body Slam means that fully minimized Chansey, instead of winning easily, is a sitting duck. Thankfully, Gliscor beats Slowbro4 (don’t forget that Immunity can stop Toxic, requiring a slower grind), but if you’ve been forced to lose Gliscor earlier (thankfully rare), Snorlax can spell trouble.

Naturally, since most of these videos show close calls, they don’t typically show the team (and often my play) at their best. But I think it’s useful to show what happens when things get tough.

413: My first “should have lost" moment
RXJW-WWWW-WWX6-ZNA4

Thundurus1, Cobalion2, Terrakion2. I should have lost here. Bad play (losing Gliscor unnecessarily) set me up to lose to Thundurus1. Worst part is because of the switch out on turn 1, I knew it was Thundurs1 already, I knew I should save Gliscor, and yet I stuck with “default” Terrakion strategy rather than updating my play to apply the extra information. Saved by the fact that the AI, as it does, randomly used Protect on a turn it could have stuck a Toxic on my solo Chansey. Scary.

575: A little bit of everything
R9SW-WWWW-WWX6-ZN96

Mega Alakazam / Gengar3 / Porygon-Z. Protect followed by the double switch to identify Mega Alakazam and get Chansey in cleanly, followed by Chansey stalling Gengar out of Energy Ball, follwed by abusing Regenerator to switch-stall Gengar the rest of the way to preserve Chansey’s PP. One of those easy battles that nonetheless takes forever, but at least shows some of the team’s nuances.

603: The second “should have lost” battle
35ZG-WWWW-WWX6-ZNW6

Azelf3, Tornadus3, Kommo-o3: Shows the extreme danger of switching turn 1 against a possible Azelf3 Nasty Plot. Sub, then Toxic is correct. In any case, I should have lost here, but was saved by the inexplicable switch from a set up Azelf that was ready to Psyshock my Chansey dead into Tornadus. Why!? I’ll take it, but still confuzzled. This battle also shows the danger of battling while distracted.

923: The AI tries to switch-stall me
LRHG-WWWW-WWX6-ZMRU

Venusaur3 / Decidueye4 / Serperior4. A silly situation where, with only Chansey and Slowbro alive, the AI’s Decidueye4 and no-PP Serperior4 tried to essentially switch stall me, Serperior switching to Decidueye who would Baton Pass back. Note: Contrary Serperior could have been problematic here.

1000: Nothing too special, save for the lovely 4th digit win
725G-WWWW-WWWV-Q6XU

Altaria3, Gallade3, Magnezone4. Wally led with Mega Alatria. I correctly Subbed rather than Protected so didn’t get punished by the Dance. Missed first Toxic, but Altaria over-Danced so no problem. I got slightly sloppy on Gallade3, and didn’t carefully check for X-Scissor Defense drops, and so threw in an extra unnecessary Iron Defense as a precaution, but otherwise, super straight forward fight, once the AI showed it was Gallade3 (and not a Mega Evolution locked out Gallade4, which has Destiny Bond and so requires more care).

1065: The loss
E58G-WWWW-WWX6-Z3LV

Florges1, Mimikyu3, Primarina4. After a free set-up and easy win for Chansey against Florges1, one of the biggest joke Pokemon in Super Singles, Mimikyu3, a great Chansey counter, comes in. I have two options here. The first is to try to stall out Wood Hammer and Play Rough. I’m set up behind a Sub with max evasion, and only have to stall out 25 PP of attacks. The difficulty is that Mimikyu can set up with Swords Dance and also outspeeds me, so after two Dances any turn I don’t preemptively Substitute potentially leaves me vulnerable to a hit breaking the Sub and a second hit, KOing me on the next turn, before I can resub. Stalling is still probably my best line here, since having to switch back into Gliscor and then having to break the Disguise gives Mimikyu several turns to beat on me or set up. But I went with the Gliscor option. Now I had to break Mimikyu’s Disguise and Toxic it with Gliscor. But rather than using Toxic right away, I went for a Sub first. Risky call, but it looked like I got rewarded when Mimikyu used Swords Dance. And then I made a bigger error. Rather than using Toxic as soon as the Sub was up, I got greedy and ran a Protect to gain a few more HP before using Toxic next turn. The idea was that I was behind a Sub and using Protect, so of course I’d be safe to Toxic the next turn, making the Protect a free way to gain some health. Except I forgot about Mimikyu’s Z-stone. Mimikyu used Twinkle Tackle, and even through Protect, it broke my Sub! So Gliscor fainted next turn before I got to Toxic. Whoops! Obviously, Mimikyu3 is always scary, especially here when I chose to switch Gliscor back into it, and a miss on Toxic would have ended me even if I had played correctly, but this is still an example of a seemingly small misplay, failing to identify the chance of a Z-attack breaking my Sub through my Protect, proving fatal. It admittedly came after other misplays, but the lesson remains the same regardless. The little things matter on big streaks. It’s possible I misplayed even more with Chansey in the end, too; after Gliscor fainted I tried to luck into pilfering a KO with Wood Hammer recoil damage by spamming Soft Boiled; I probably should have tried to get really lucky with Minimize. But once I’m in Minimize land, we’re back to asking why I didn’t just tough things out with my set up Chansey earlier. Yuck.

The team is good, and I like it. Mega Slowbro can’t just be thrown onto a random team and expected to succeed, but paired with Chansey, it really does nice work. And given the greater need for scouting in the Tree relative to the Maison, thanks to the plethora of trainers using both sets 3 and 4, I believe Gliscor clearly earns its keep over Dragonite as a lead. All that said, I do think I was reasonably fortunate on this streak, and I don’t think I’m going to use this team again in the Tree to shoot for a higher win total. As my videos show, I escaped two “should have lost” battles before my final loss on battle 1065. Though good play could have avoided those close calls, there is something of a ceiling (albeit a high one) on this team. Threats like Mimikyu3 and Azelf3 exist, and untimely misses with Toxic against them could prove fatal. Being honest, I think I’d struggle to play this team to 2000, so chasing that number one spot is out. But that’s hardly a disaster. Very few teams really have what it takes to chase the top spot on the leaderboard by the end of a generation, and getting to 1000 wins still satisfies me. In short, this team was well worth the time and effort to build and play. I had fun with this squad, and if you give it a try, I suspect you will too.
I've alluded to this before on the discord as an option for Gliscor, but looking at the team's threats it seems like at least a few of them could be handled more easily if Gliscor had Bulldoze and slowed them down for itself or a teammate (plus the extra PP probably can't hurt for such a stall-focused team) without making any noticeably worse. Is the extra damage from Earthquake really needed when you're mostly just using it to finish off something that's been taking Toxic damage?

Virizion: you're just trying it induce it to rest and bring in Slowbro, so the actual damage doesn't matter that much

Azelf: no difference

Gyarados: slowing it down makes it more likely to Dragon Dance, but it seems like you need Toxic to hit either way

Mega Sharpedo: Gliscor is sub-stalling it either way as a lead, and if it comes out 2nd/3rd and Gliscor's low on PP you have the option of 100% lowering its speed so Chansey can outspeed and more easily stall out the remaining Crunches rather than relying on Toxic

Haxorus: Bulldoze makes it even more likely to continue Dragon Dancing

Serperior: not attacking with Gliscor either way

Mimikyu: Gliscor and Chansey both outspeed after a Bulldoze

Skarmory: no difference

Scizor: Substitute turn 1. Set 3 is then LO stalled and set 4 is outsped by Slowbro after 2 Bulldozes and can be set up on without having to sacrifice Gliscor

Reuniclus: no difference

Snorlax: no difference other than you take a few more turns to KO it with Bulldoze (probably makes more sense either way to switch Chansey in on Crunch once it's out of Body Slam and set up with that instead, and of course from there you could run it out of Fissure and set up Slowbro)

and then in addition to all of those you probably have a few leads that Gliscor handles on its own but with Bulldoze you can instead set up the safer sweepers
 
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NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
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I've alluded to this before on the discord as an option for Gliscor, but looking at the team's threats it seems like a few of them could at least be handled more easily if Gliscor had Bulldoze and slowed them down for itself or a teammate (plus the extra PP probably can't hurt for such a stall-focused team). Is the extra damage from Earthquake really needed when you're mostly just using it to finish off something that's already been Toxiced?
Ooh! I'm intrigued. Bulldoze might really help against things like Contrary Serperior (Protect, Bulldoze, Protect, Sub, Protect wins barring a crit on the turn 2 Leaf Storm, while my current strategy leaves me losing Gliscor much of the time), and I love easier setups for teammates. Chansey especially loves getting to play Substitute games when faster. And on sufficiently slow threats, a Bulldoze (or 2?) would allow Slowbro to move first, which turns certain risky setups into safe ones. Plus, the PP issue is a real one. I'll have to experiment, as there are Pokemon where attacking repeatedly is currently the correct play and I'll need to see if the Speed drop opens better alternative options against these foes, since I'll be losing a lot damage in these situations, but I'm quite tempted!

[edited since, as pointed out by GG Unit and Sadistic Mystic, Bulldoze would in fact boost Contrary Serperior's Speed! Whoopsie!]

It also opens the possibility of a slower, bulkier spread, since initial Speed will be less important if I can slow the foe down. That would leave me more vulnerable to Mega Sharpedo though, since it will outspeed me and can OHKO with Ice Fang on the Bulldoze turn, and I can't stall out Ice Fang without being faster to begin with. Same for Flying-types / Levitators that I currently outspeed but wouldn't with a slower spread, but offhand I'm not sure how important that might be, and would have to dig through the speed tiers and sets.

But at the very least, Bulldoze is an interesting idea, and perhaps it's a brilliant one. I may just have to amend the conclusion of my streak writeup and give Gliscor / Chansey / Mega Slowbro another Tree run!
 
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Ooh! I'm intrigued. Bulldoze might really help against things like Contrary Serperior (Protect, Bulldoze, Protect, Sub, Protect wins barring a crit on the turn 2 Leaf Storm, while my current strategy leaves me losing Gliscor much of the time), and I love easier setups for teammates. Chansey especially loves getting to play Substitute games when faster. And on sufficiently slow threats, a Bulldoze (or 2?) would allow Slowbro to move first, which turns certain risky setups into safe ones. Plus, the PP issue is a real one. I'll have to experiment, as there are Pokemon where attacking repeatedly is currently the correct play and I'll need to see if the Speed drop opens better alternative options against these foes, since I'll be losing a lot damage in these situations, but I'm quite tempted!

It also opens the possibility of a slower, bulkier spread, since initial Speed will be less important if I can slow the foe down. That would leave me more vulnerable to Mega Sharpedo though, since it will outspeed me and can OHKO with Ice Fang on the Bulldoze turn, and I can't stall out Ice Fang without being faster to begin with.

I may just have to amend the conclusion of my streak writeup and give Gliscor / Chansey / Mega Slowbro another Tree run!
Well Contrary Serperior would still outspeed Gliscor after getting +1 from Bulldoze, but other than that it seems like it would open up more options
:p

I don't know what the Special Defense benchmark is for, but you might even be able to go the other way and get Gliscor to 161 speed, where it outspeeds Scarf Terrakion after a Bulldoze. It seems like there's a few trainers where a set-up Slowbro or Chansey = automatic win and maybe you could get through some tricky leads by just Bulldozing repeatedly as you sacrifice Gliscor (or just switch it out at low health) rather than take longer stalling or allowing for the chance to lose via Toxic misses or something. And then in those rare cases where you're repeatedly attacking to take down some Toxic immunity and the AI switches in a Ground resist, that speed drop on the switch is a nice bonus.
 
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Bulldoze might really help against things like Contrary Serperior (Protect, Bulldoze, Protect, Sub, Protect wins barring a crit on the turn 2 Leaf Storm, while my current strategy leaves me losing Gliscor much of the time)
If Serperior is indeed Contrary, then you just gave them a speed boost on turn 2, and get KO'd on 4 before the sub can go up (barring a miss). No help there.

Gliscor also has access to Steel Wing, which doesn't do as much damage as Bulldoze and is less likely to be useful coverage. But it does have even more PP, can mise the occasional defense boost to make some matchups easier (as opposed to Metal Claw, which has more PP still but puts the miser's boost in a less useful stat), and its typing may convince the opponent to make a resist switch to a Water-type, possibly giving up a matchup they might have been able to brute-force through eventually for one where Slowbro can often come in for nearly free and laugh all the way to the bank. If you decide to go the route of "I don't particularly care how much use Gliscor gets out of the damage formula, period", that's also an option.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If Serperior is indeed Contrary, then you just gave them a speed boost on turn 2, and get KO'd on 4 before the sub can go up (barring a miss). No help there.

Gliscor also has access to Steel Wing, which doesn't do as much damage as Bulldoze and is less likely to be useful coverage. But it does have even more PP, can mise the occasional defense boost to make some matchups easier (as opposed to Metal Claw, which has more PP still but puts the miser's boost in a less useful stat), and its typing may convince the opponent to make a resist switch to a Water-type, possibly giving up a matchup they might have been able to brute-force through eventually for one where Slowbro can often come in for nearly free and laugh all the way to the bank. If you decide to go the route of "I don't particularly care how much use Gliscor gets out of the damage formula, period", that's also an option.
Oh crap! I forgot that Contrary would turn the Bulldoze Speed drop into a boost. Whoops!
 
If Serperior is indeed Contrary, then you just gave them a speed boost on turn 2, and get KO'd on 4 before the sub can go up (barring a miss). No help there.

Gliscor also has access to Steel Wing, which doesn't do as much damage as Bulldoze and is less likely to be useful coverage. But it does have even more PP, can mise the occasional defense boost to make some matchups easier (as opposed to Metal Claw, which has more PP still but puts the miser's boost in a less useful stat), and its typing may convince the opponent to make a resist switch to a Water-type, possibly giving up a matchup they might have been able to brute-force through eventually for one where Slowbro can often come in for nearly free and laugh all the way to the bank. If you decide to go the route of "I don't particularly care how much use Gliscor gets out of the damage formula, period", that's also an option.
lolwut, obviously lowering the opponent's speed 100% of the time (while hitting Steels and Poisons super effectively) is the main draw of Bulldoze. Speed is much more important than any other stat in the Battle Tree.
 
Hmmmm it looks like the tool is now hosted on VGC Stats, but still works the same as it used to (at least when using the link of the OP). Does it not load on your end?
Hi. Yes my battle tree tool is still live but due to my recent collaboration with vgcstats there is not direct way of entering my battle tree tool from vgcstats page. However the link from smogon forum is still active and you can bookmark the battle tree page for you convenience.

CC: NoCheese
 
Hello folks! First time caller, long time listener. I have a long-winded question about stall in the super-singles setting:

Background:

I've made a few runs in the tree but none were very successful. My best team yet has only reached a win streak of 53 and was composed of Greninja, Mimikyu, Umbreon. An offensive team with Umbreon as a backup/just-in-case mixed wall for things the other two couldn't break. After loosing a few runs I realized that I was gradually playing more and more of my toxic wall Umbreon. This eventually lead me to set up a full on wall team. However, none of the tanky combinations I've tried have made it past the 30s. I've heard that pure stall teams have difficulty in the tree but I'm wanting to keep trying.

Question:

I understand that my choices in play, and my team composition have more of an impact than EV spreads, but I'm still curious about where I should be putting those extra stats. I'm now begining to suspect my approach to EV spreads may be incorrect. Since a team of 3 is so limiting I thought it would be a better idea to have general use blockers and use 3 mixed walls instead of having dedicated special and physical walls. Would it be better if I rearranged their EVs to have a more focused application? Or is having full HP investment plus a 50/50 special/phsyical split the right way to go?

TLDR:

Is it wise for a stall team to choose Pokemon for roles as specific special and physical tanks? Or is a generalist "mixed wall" approach more suited to the tree?
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
TLDR:
Is it wise for a stall team to choose Pokemon for roles as specific special and physical tanks? Or is a generalist "mixed wall" approach more suited to the tree?
First, welcome! Always good to have more Tree discussion.

Sadly, as to your question, the answer is "it depends." I got to four digits with a pretty stallish Gliscor / Chansey / Mega Slowbro. Gliscor, while more oriented towards physical defense just due to base stats, was essentially a mixed defender. It's goal was stall out what move could threaten it or its teammates and then ideally switch to a teammate to set up, or else use Toxic to win. Thanks to Protect + Substitute + Poison Heal, Gliscor could stall out the worrisome attacks from a large number of both physical and special foes. Chansey and Slowbro, on the other hand, were both heavily slanted. Chansey could switch into and set up on most special attackers but few physical ones, and Mega Slowbro was the reverse. So on my team, both generalist and specialist defender set-ups were important.

Even if there's no one correct answer to your question, I can give a couple of pointers. First, if you are using "biased" defenders, you probably want them to be able to set up. That way, dominating one foe will make it easier to beat subsequent ones. This is the big weakness of relying too heavily on something like Milotic. It's a great Toxic-staller, but if it switches into a foe it dominates, it will still be at a disadvantage if a threatening foe comes in next. If Milotic could set up, it might be able to handle that follow-up foe too. Keep this in mind if you build your team around Toxic Umbreon. A corrolary to this is that if your defensive Pokemon can set up, you'll probably want it to have at least reasonable game against both types of attack once it has successfully boosted. It's not worth spending a ton of time setting up if you'll just be forced out the moment an attacker of the "wrong" type comes out. Note that having enough boosted attack to OHKO a threat with the "wrong" type even if it does moderate damage in return is an acceptable approach to the set-up game, so you don't necessarily need to be boosting both defenses to still have post-boosting strength against different types of attacker.

Second is that if you do choose to EV a Pokemon to be a mixed Defender, make sure it can actually handle the role. I'll use two Pokemon I've used a bunch as examples. Suicune is great as a more mixed Defender. Both its Defense and Special Defense start at pretty high levels, and it can boost itself on the Special side with Calm Mind. So give it a Bold Nature, a lot of Defense EVs, and Calm Mind, and you can naturally tank a lot of physical attacks, while you can set up into being hard to crack with special attacks. And Suicune's default special bulk is good enough to safely switch into many special attackers and start the set-up process. Mega Slowbro, on the other hand, fails at the mixed role. I tried a Calm, Max Special Defense spread, but the cost was just too high. Even with Special Defense maxed, Slowbro wasn't able to switch into as many Special Attackers as I'd have liked, and losing the Defense EVs and Bold nature meant that certain high powered physical attackers could now break Slowbro, especially given the lack of critical hit protection on the switch turn, and the almost universal need to take a hit before acting on the Mega Evolve turn (owning to Slowbro's horrible Speed). Trying to do two things ended up meaning that I did neither well. Make sure your Pokemon can truly handle the role you are assigning it.

Best of luck!
 
Hello folks! First time caller, long time listener. I have a long-winded question about stall in the super-singles setting:

Background:

I've made a few runs in the tree but none were very successful. My best team yet has only reached a win streak of 53 and was composed of Greninja, Mimikyu, Umbreon. An offensive team with Umbreon as a backup/just-in-case mixed wall for things the other two couldn't break. After loosing a few runs I realized that I was gradually playing more and more of my toxic wall Umbreon. This eventually lead me to set up a full on wall team. However, none of the tanky combinations I've tried have made it past the 30s. I've heard that pure stall teams have difficulty in the tree but I'm wanting to keep trying.

Question:

I understand that my choices in play, and my team composition have more of an impact than EV spreads, but I'm still curious about where I should be putting those extra stats. I'm now begining to suspect my approach to EV spreads may be incorrect. Since a team of 3 is so limiting I thought it would be a better idea to have general use blockers and use 3 mixed walls instead of having dedicated special and physical walls. Would it be better if I rearranged their EVs to have a more focused application? Or is having full HP investment plus a 50/50 special/phsyical split the right way to go?

TLDR:

Is it wise for a stall team to choose Pokemon for roles as specific special and physical tanks? Or is a generalist "mixed wall" approach more suited to the tree?
Even for slower Pokemon, being able to PP stall and protect against status moves/critical hits by outspeeding and setting up a Substitute is often more important than just repeatedly tanking hits since sooner or later you'll get hit by a OHKO move or frozen for many turns or whatever. This doesn't mean everything needs to have max speed, but in a lot of cases you can outspeed several more Pokemon with just a few speed EVs, which will be more helpful than having another point or two in defenses. A lot of the time Toxic isn't really doing much because if you wall something the AI's not gonna switch out, so you can just use another attack (ideally one with 100% accuracy that is walled by fewer things than every steel or poison type, Rest user, and Pokemon with an ability like Immunity, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, etc.) to KO it at your leisure while ideally getting your own Pokemon behind a Substitute and/or boosting its stats.

If you have Chansey + a lead with Intimidate, you can switch Chansey in against basically anything that can't boost its attack or hit it with physical Fighting STAB and beat it while having full HP with a Substitute and +6 evasion for whatever comes out next. It is much more effective to lean heavily on the most overpowered Pokemon that brute force their way through the most teams/sets on their own and support them with specialized teammates that can come through in the rare bad matchups (relatively easy to prepare for because the pool of opposing Pokemon is fixed) than to try for a 'well-balanced' team that walls lots of stuff on paper but in reality falls victim to relatively common forms of bad luck. For example, I'd consider something like Mega Salamence to be a better member of a 'stall' team than most things that would be better mixed walls because it's fast, can PP stall with Substitute/Roost, and complements Chansey with Intimidate and its good matchup against the physical fighting types Chansey has trouble with; Salamence's relative lack of special defense doesn't matter because Chansey already beats any special attacker.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most walls need Leftovers to be at their best, which makes Pokemon that use other items such as Chansey or Gliscor even more valuable if you're trying to make a stall team.
 
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