Resource BBP Balance and Play Experience Watchlist

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LouisCyphre

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BBP Balance and Play Experience Watchlist
This is a living, non-exhaustive list, of the balance and play experience issues found in very viable BBP game pieces.

This list is PvP-focused. Inclusion in the watchlist does not promise action.​

A piece is a candidate for balance scrutiny if, by being very viable, it makes a large group of nominally-playable Pokemon, moves, items, or strategies non-viable for play.
Example: A Pokemon with Unnerve dominates the meta, making Berry strategies largely unfeasible. ​
If Pokemon with Unnerve are only a portion of the metagame, this scrutiny doesn't apply.​

A piece is a candidate for play experience scrutiny if, by being very viable, it makes BBP demand more time and labor than is reasonable, or makes BBP matches more difficult for referees.
Example: A prior version of Frisk was frequently forgotten by referees and players, who would forget to offer a chance to declare item names.​
If that version of Frisk is not common in the metagame, or if refs eventually remember to offer Frisk, this scrutiny doesn't apply.​

Balance and Play Experience Watchlist
The following pieces have been found to be possibly harmful to serious PvP:​

:choice band::choice specs:
Choice Band and Choice Specs
These items are contributing to a volatile, high-damage environment. They outperform most competing damage items, and make weaknesses and low Speed a greater liability than they should be.

This contributes to many seemingly-unconnected player concerns. Players have expressed concern about Flinch combos, but the skipped turn matters more when Pokemon don't survive in play as long as they should. Pokemon who feature low offenses but high BAP on their attacks look silly when other Pokemon can do similar damage with all of their regular attacks.

Expected Remedy: It may finally be time for the multiplier on these items to be reduced, or replaced with a flat increase. Various attempts at sculpting a balanced restriction have failed to address the issue. Players will willingly endure basically any restriction to defeat their opponent a step sooner.​
​
As a result of this damage decrease, I'm interested in new and easier-to-remember restrictions. The current restriction is appropriately lenient for a weaker version of these items, but annoying to track.​

:swoobat:
Boosting Combos
Like Choice Band and Choice Specs above, combinations that increase offensive stages by 2 are currently causing Pokemon to fall over much sooner than they are expected to.

However, it's unclear if these combinations alone would be out of line. They are currently being used with Choice items, and they do cost a precious Technique Control. They also provide untyped damage, meaning they don't specifically make Pokemon with many weaknesses unviable, like Choice items do.

Expected Remedy: None at this time. These combinations will likely remain on the watchlist after Choice items are actioned.​
​
If they remain too good even after Choice items are actioned, certain boosting moves will have to be made CL: Banned.​

:smeargle:
Triple Combos
Players have theorycrafted certain Triple Combos that seem frightening in theory. Most are pie-in-the-sky Population Bomb brews, but Triple Combos consisting of two stage-increasing moves and an attack seem both boring and terribly effective.

Expected Remedy: None at this time. It remains to be seen if other ways to spend Technique Control wither and die as Triple Combos become more widely available.​
​
If they prove to be oppressive, the first thing I would prefer to try is to make them cost more Energy than regular Combos. If that fails, I'm willing to make players combine only two components from their "Triple" Combo slot, such that the unlock essentially acts as extra Combo Slots. I would like to avoid having to resort to this, as it is terribly boring.​

:golduck:
Golduck
Currently, this Pokemon can hold Pure Incense to have virtual 9's in every stat, while being terribly fast and invalidating opposing Weather control. Thanks to Damp, Golduck can ignore the shared Attack Forte and Defense Forte.

Expected Remedy: Probably remove the effect of Damp that grants Penalty-Proof. It's fine if Golduck holds Pure Incense as if it granted Defenses; and it's fine if Golduck holds other Incenses. Only the interaction with specifically Pure Incense is out of line.​

:lilligant-hisui:
Lilligant-Hisui
This Pokemon does not need the Free Technique trait.

Expected Remedy: :puff:​

:medicham:
Endure
So long as Endure exists in its current state, Type Gems will be nonviable in Level 4 battles.

This has a few effects on competitive play, but the largest is that offensive pivots and revenge-killers need to have as much type coverage as possible in order to function. Type Gems are meant to be the item of choice for Pokemon who plan to drop a neutral Draco Meteor or Explosion and leave, as just two examples, but they currently cannot do so.

Expected Remedy: We will probably make this move grant Bonus-Proof and Defense Aid only for the step it is used. This does still allow Type Gems to be wasted if spent carelessly, but this doesn't differ meaningfully from Protect.​


We'll add pieces to this list if we feel they are harming the balance or play experience of serious PvP. For the time being, that means League Circuit, The Legend Gauntlet, and Super Contests.

:sv/spidops:
Watchlist Updates
Between big balance patches, we'll use this thread to keep players in the loop as to what we're watching. We'll post in this thread periodically, updating the watchlist and addressing the mood of the thread.

If there's a balance hotfix brewing (as opposed to a rules-related hotfix, or a mere correction), players will be able to see the writing on the wall in this thread.

:sv/whismur:
Can I suggest adding—?
Yes, this is a complaint thread.

Post here about pieces you think are harming to either the balance or the play experience of serious PvP, and articulate why it's harmful. Explain what harm the piece is doing. If the piece has healthy features, include those and try to explain why those features are outweighed. You may also post in response, to try to run defense for your favorite pieces. You might offer additional positive features the piece has, or explain why a certain concern is negligible.

Try to steer dialogue towards identifying what a piece's problems actually are. Also, try to identify the healthy aspects of problematic pieces, that are worth maintaining if the piece is acted upon. And above all, try to recognize whether or not the part you love about a piece is worth keeping.

I want to emphasize: I know many of you are aspiring developers, but this is not a thread for showcasing "clever" solutions. Discuss potential changes, but do not halt conversation with your all-in-one, comprehensive self-authored solution.

Bugged or inaccurate pieces (missing descriptions, etc) go in the Bug and Feedback thread.
 
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Thanks, all of you, for the loud responses. We're adding Absorbtion Abilities to the watchlist for play-experience reasons.

WatchedPleasing FeaturesConcerning Features
:lanturn:
Absorbing Abilities​
1. The capacity to self-trigger means they're not completely inert in BBP.1. They currently trigger from non-attacks, which is attractive to players in the same smelly way that becoming damage-immune is. This complicates any work done to non-attacks of the relevant types.
2. The timing at which they trigger is poor (that is, they there's no good way to make them trigger "When the user would have been hit"), leading to non-intuitive interactions.
3. Tying them to the Recovery ecosystem was necessary but left them mostly unexciting as a result.
 
I guess this is a good place to organise my existing complaints.

Belly Drum
Play pattern is fun, balance point seems like a lot.
If you can execute 4 attacks after it then you are looking at something like -20 life to use, +96 damage. 76 is a rather large damage swing in a single move, without even counting ways to potentially extend it.

OTK's
I like them being more granular instead of straight yes/no questions, but they seem incredibly difficult to track for players and refs.
I think at some point someone is going to suddenly die because they pressed a recovery move 5 rounds and 2 swaps ago and they can now be executed from 40, or that lots of people are going to have to check exactly how many screens and wishes someone used in the battle for fissure counts. Seems very fiddly.

Second Order Comboes
This is known but not on the list for this thread, so why not add it to the mix. Current second order comboes are more expensive than before, but have the same look up cost as pre patch, because you still need to evaluate their cost/benefit and see if it is ok to let them resolve, even if they are weaker than before.

Spinda
Funny panda looks really unfun to play against with perma evasive. Unsure the exact how strong he is, but he looks like he has the exact kind of annoying play pattern that got ninetales-a reworked a billion times but has dodged the scrutiny since no one has one leveled. The move pool of this thing seems really annoying to fight through even if you have theoretical answers, dizzy punch, counter, disable, fake out, sing. Very obnoxious mon and probably league quality.

"Evasion Defeating" Moves
Related to the spinda complaint but why a lot of things are/were annoying like spinda and bright powder a9 is because the theoretical counter moves such as swift do not interact favourably with permanent evasive abilities. Sure the swift itself will hit, but you are right back to missing again afterwards into the bright powder or tangled feet/own tempo

Mew
The balance issues are clearly already under the microscope. I think there is an issue with Mew's current rules where optimal play is often just finding the highest BAP attack and spamming it at the opponent. There are lots of legendaries that let players type high damage attacks to smack down their opponents, I don't think that is the theoretical appeal of mew to the player base. That said I also am not sure it is ok to give one mon the best hazard control, best set up diffuse, best set up, etc even if the straight up damage of mew's move pool was reduced.
Also not the biggest issue, but current design forces an extra post if the mew player is second order.

Weather
I like that new weather is simpler than the previous version. I think it has reverted to a lot of the old problems with unreliability. Specifically the current weather is pretty reliable on pokemon that are setting their own weather, (a9, tyranitar, groudon), but very unreliable if you are trying to pass weather to someone else (tangrowth, excadrill)

Combined Switching Phase
Every time swap nonsense comes up I just ask discord how to resolve it. My current understanding is if you switching marker into pokemon A and then manual swap to pokemon B, rocks and drought will not work, but regenerator will. Who knows.
 
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Torment seems like a really brutal second action gottcha because it allows pokemon to recieve intents but not execute.
For example people very commonly use "if able, use x" as a defence against move disruption, and if you do that vs torment you skip your second and third action.

It also blocks comboes which is probably intended but I at least didn't realise until the 4th time or more that I read it. The effect feels a bit disconnected from the rest of the move.
The combo is also blocked on execute not intent, so I believe you would pay full tech and en costs before being blocked.
 
Somewhat related.
I believe if you encore someone onto a move and then seal that move, they will struggle.
this does not seem imbalanced in the sense that you are spending 2 actions to deny 2 actions, but does seem like it might be against the patch intent of letting first player actually do things that resolve.
 
Encore is delayed for a reason; it + Disable is fine. They also work well together in the source games.

Torment would be a nice add to the list. "Executed" is error on my part. What do we currently like about it, other than, "we like having strong, slow disruption"?
 
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I think it's the one disruption effect that is both good enough to use (even post hotfix) and primarily about its long-term effects.
(To clarify - lots of disruption is good enough to use, the main uniqueness of Torment is the long-term part.)
If you're clicking Disable it's because you have noticed it breaks your opponent's current orders right now.
Encore has similar theoretical play patterns to Torment but I think it's much weaker (as befits a level 1 move) because of just how long it requires you to survive; Torment has much more of a short-term impact, and also set up a threat where they will become neutered in a couple rounds if they don't switch out.
 
I feel like Torment is really strong, especially when you're down to your last mon. I feel like that's probably intended, but it feels really strong being able to force your opponent into using weak or resisted moves, especially with Pokémon that have small movepools. (This may or may not come from my experience being Tormented in one of my battles)
 
Updates for the September Patch Follow-Up:

WatchedPleasing FeaturesConcerning Features
:mew:
Mew​
1. Offers a fantasy of versatility and game mastery.
2. Now only ever brings a sane, answerable number of moves to a battle.		1. If dominant, 115 is the (rather high) meta Speed to beat, rather than 80-92.
2. Selection mechanic incentivizes discarding the most interesting moves Mew learns, in favor of workhorse moves.
3. 15 moves per level may prove still oppressive, or may prove non-viable. Unknown without field experience.
:weavile:
Torment​
1. This move now has clear moments of power and of weakness.
2. The delay in partial effect means that opponents can order mostly normally until Torment is used; but must be cautious with combos when Torment is present.		1. The effect being partially immediate, and partially delayed, may cause confusion.
2. The move may prove rather weak even when used; when it should exert pressure to switch and switch soon.
:metal powder:
Ditto Powders​
1. Now offer flexibility of use to Mew and Necturna, while favoring Ditto.
2. No longer scale exclusively with the stats of the Pokemon being transformed into. They should now play nicely with custom arenas, PvE, and so on.		1. The degree to which they favor Ditto over other holders may be too small.
2. Malleable Powder may cause rules confusion down the line.

These watched items are in addition to prior watched items.

I also want to extend my hide-tag ramble from Torment's changes, a little, now that I feel more lucid: The issue with most of the disruptive moves in BBP is the pressure they exert before ever being used. I think I failed to articulate that specific issue in my prior post.

I still believe the comments I made about a Pokemon's threatening moves informing their "texture". It's important that each Pokemon have a slightly different set of threatening moves, and force opponents to order somewhat differently against them. Deciding how strong that influence is, and which moves can healthily be a part of that texture, is an inexact science that we're all still learning together.

I think "this move is good without ever being used" is a valid line of balance and play experience critique. As the game evolves, I'm sure we'll develop a sense for moves that should or should not exert immediate sub/order pressure; and how much pressure they should reasonably exert.

As above, the September version of Torment exerted pressure across the entire orderset—main and sub—of every opponent in play, which was quite out of line.
 
I want to bring up :choice-band: Choice Band and :choice-specs: Choice Specs.

If Choice Scarf is under scrutiny for the memory issues its restriction can cause, then I think its siblings with the same restriction should also be noted. While the reduced sub count means there are less subs to goof on, I have seen goofing on the overall sub count, too.

I think these items' positive is the message they send: "I'm here to get a KO, and quickly, without fear of what you can do to me". There is certainly enjoyment to be found in equipping Specs on Reshiram and Blue Flaring whatever dare stand in your way to smithereens, for example.
 
Going to get this on here while it's on the mind.

WatchedPleasing FeaturesConcerning Features
:lucky egg:
Lucky Egg​
1. Helps players get excited for low-statted Pokemon.
2. Lends common relevance to Penalty-Proof in particular.
3. Excels in offensive and defensive roles.		1. For every low-statted or even medium-statted Pokemon, this item is often regarded as their best-in-slot.
2. Disproportionately rewards Pokemon for having all of their stats in HP.
3. Even for Pokemon with heaps of stats, they still sometimes slot this item for a free +3 to their lowest rank.
4. Excels in offensive and defensive roles at once.
5. Further diminishes the relevance of ranks, when smaller Pokemon can get a massive injection of ranks from one item.

Parroting from Discord: Lucky Egg hasn't really done its job of bringing relevance to players' favorite underdogs, like Furret and Beedrill. Instead, Pokemon with a large supply of well-rounded stats (Slowbro-Galar, Clefable), with a large amount of HP (Cetitan, Hariyama), or with a single defense needing patching (Donphan, Blissey).

With the arrival of free-tech Traits, most of the Pokemon that Lucky Egg was designed to help are instead being improved at a system level. This leaves Lucky Egg adrift. It yet remains popular, as a one-stop solution to common offensive and defensive needs in a single backpack slot, crowding out competitors with specific purpose like Ability Shield, Assault Vest, or Life Orb.

There are also a couple items I'd like to mention, that are escaping watch for the time being. Think of this as "we know they're strong and that's fine for now":
  • :leftovers:Leftovers: This is probably the real current best generic defensive item in the game. It rewards passivity and interacts weirdly with trigger logic for users at full HP. However, it is a known defensive icon from the source games. It also lends purpose to healing interaction (especially Psychic Noise) so long as it remains strong; making users of these moves attractive.
  • :weakness policy:Weakness Policy: This item has traction despite its typically-weak design: The opponent gets to decide if they would prefer to take and deal more damage by hitting the holder's weakness. Other items with this functionality have floundered, but both "modes" of Weakness Policy—where the opponent refrains from hitting super-effectively, or where the opponent grants the holder large boosts—have proven to be extremely strong. Because of the agency this item gives to opponents, we're cautiously optimistic about its place in the metagame overall.
 
Did you know that mechanics, and mechanical states can go on here, too?

WatchedPleasing FeaturesConcerning Features
:reuniclus:
Manual Switching​
1. It's difficult to call this a "feature". Changing the matchup is a fundamental function of the game.
2. We want players to skillfully manage their reserve and jockey with each other for field presence. Cost-free switching enables that to some degree.		1. Because it happens in its own special phase, and spends nothing; the only potential cost of manually switching is having to order first in your prefered matchup.
2. Instead, counterswitching and counter-Tera incur a heavy cost: Having to order first.
:archaludon:
Archaludon​
1. It's nice to have a public enemy whose win condition isn't "players literally give up reading its moves and quit BBP."2. It accrues stat stages with little cost. Defense stages just from being hit, and Sp.Atk stages just from using its strongest attacks.


Manual Switching - Much fuss has been made of the horrors of ordering first in BBP. Whether it be the need to look up combos, the difficulty of writing airtight substitutions, or even the knowledge that the opponent will have more agency than them this round; BBP players want to spend as little time as possible ordering first.

It would seem a little surprising, then, that the most successful circuit strategies have involved aggressively switching in switching phases, whenever it's reasonable. This is kind of a reverse-watchlist: Manual switching can't be said to be "broken" any more more than "equipping items" could.

It's clear to all onlookers that something is off, though. The acts of phazing, pivoting, and even trapping seem to be regarded as niche tools for securing a KO instead of key pieces of a matchup-control ecosystem. The central conceit is this: Manually switching currently needs no support from these tools—it's already the best form of matchup control.

When you switch manually; either the opponent stays in a matchup you hand-picked; or the opponent cedes second order to you by counterswitching. You've gained a large advantage just by having switched, no matter what they choose. Even if the opponent does switch to a counter, you're given the opportunity to greatly harm or even defeat that counter, because you have most of the agency in the outcome of the round.

Most clear remedies seem unpalatable to players asked; mainly because most suggestions would redefine BBP entirely. We're unlikely to:
  • Reduce the standard step count to 2,
  • Remove the Switching Phase and make manual switching a command,
  • "Stun" incoming manually-switched Pokemon for a round, or else make them Sluggish,
  • Remove counterswitching and counter-Tera for being "noobtraps",
  • Assign an Energy cost or other penalty for starting a switch,
  • Remove the function of pivoting or counterswitching that yields second order,
  • or several other highly-drastic measures.
Instead of immediately upending a fundamental axis of the game as a whole, we're just hoping to make players aware that counterswitching and counter-Tera are often harmful. Yes, this is in part because second order has a majority of the agency in a round. We're loathe to leave this be for too long, but combo changes slated for January will already greatly ease ordering first in almost every battle. We'd currently like to see how things land then, before making new and drastic changes.

If you want to sway us otherwise, though; this is the place to do it.


Archaludon - I expect this Pokemon to weather the changes in January barely scathed. Stamina's function to shut out all but the strongest physical attackers just by existing made no meta splash from Venomicon or Mudsdale—Archaludon's possibly-problematic feature is their dual stat-boosting attacks. Because Archaludon gains the stages to win most damage races, just from damage racing itself; most passive countermeasures to its boosts such as Haze, phazing, and Power Swap look rather silly in front of it. Because of Light Screen and Mirror Coat, even special attackers struggle with it.
 
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I keep getting tripped up when trying to remember what the current torment does.

It has 2 seperate effects that trigger at 2 seperate timings.

My brain keeps going "torment was explicitly changed so that you have to deal with it next round." but actually I should be thinking "torment was changed so that half of it only has to be dealt with next round."

It is also unclear to me why first order comboes need a predator to stop people trying to order them.
 
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Some thoughts on manual and counter swapping.

The better manual swapping is, the easier it is to first order.
First ordering is already a bit of a nightmare, having to first order into a bad match up instead of a good match up would be even worse.

The easier first order is, the better counter swapping is.
Players want to counter swap if they think first ordering with their choice of match up is better than second ordering with their opponents.

The better manual swapping and counter swapping are, the better match up control is.
Trapping is actually quite strong right now when used to deny the opponent a manual swap, forcing them to first order into a bad match up unless they pay a tax.
Switching as first order is "counter swapping", it turns your second order into a first order in return for mu control. Switching as second order denies the opponent counter swapping. If counter swapping is weak, you rarely want to initiatiate a counter swap or deny the opponent the ability to counter swap.
Phazing has the problems of swapping, but also letting the opponent free entry with a move pool monster or a choice item user is a terifying prospect. No matter how bad your previous match up was, second order choice band groudon is unlikely to make it easier.

With all that said, both match up control tools and counter swapping do see some play, even if it is more situational than idela.
In my recent league I was trapped and would have counter swapped (sending out first order butterfree to g-max an exeggutor-A).
In my recent pinacle I healing wished to stop ferrothorn counter swapping, forcing it to fight a groudon that could 2 shot it and stopping ferrothorn shedding gastro acid + embargo debuffs.
In the Ryuki I am reffing Lou has counter swapped for good value because my pokemon have double weaks and 40 moves in their pool.
 
could maybe be worth renaming crit stages to a volatile status called "criticality" or something? like focus energy could say "the user gains criticality with degree 3 for their next 6 turns". then the ignoring stats/screens could be bundled into the criticality status itself. theres probably a better potential name out there this was just the first one i thought of
 
TheEver said:
I want to bring up :choice-band: Choice Band and :choice-specs: Choice Specs.

If Choice Scarf is under scrutiny for the memory issues its restriction can cause, then I think its siblings with the same restriction should also be noted. While the reduced sub count means there are less subs to goof on, I have seen goofing on the overall sub count, too.

I think these items' positive is the message they send: "I'm here to get a KO, and quickly, without fear of what you can do to me". There is certainly enjoyment to be found in equipping Specs on Reshiram and Blue Flaring whatever dare stand in your way to smithereens, for example.
Click to expand...
I think these are worth bringing up for their strength as well. It is often possible to work around their weaknesses by bringing them in when one of your mons faints, or by swapping into a low hp opponent.

They also greatly magnify the swings of first and second order, where first order choice items may be worse then having no item at all while second order choice items are the best item in the game.

1732707100301.png
 
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