Resource BBP Bug and Feedback Thread - Generation 9 Edition!

Keriel said:
TheEver
In Guild, is Sabotage meant to check the base stat ranks like Sneak, or only the current ones?
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Current, currently. I'm not married to this if base better fits people's intuitions.

LouisCyphre said:
TheEver to decide if durations are effects
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Durations always elapse. The combat rule is for things like Sandstorm damage. Thread has been clarified.
 
sub rake we could potentially clean up: "ignore other substitutions" clause says other specifically, so a sub like "and ignore all of this Pokemon's substitutions until the end of the round" is actually illegal (has to be written with [once] and other instead)
 
to transfer thoughts from discord to here since it was mentioned this is the place for this:
it feels extremely bad losing to time in an otherwise-unloseable gamestate after playing 15 rounds in 11 days.
in my opinion the "hour gap" rule does not make sense in a context where most of the match time was not used. rewarding fast play does make some sense, but this is not detecting fast play, it is detecting "did you have something come up when you wanted to order", "was there anything going on in your life", etc.
at the same time, we don't want to have a situation at the end of a battle where the player with a time advantage has to stall a precise amount to cause the game to end while they are winning.

So, I have two proposed improvements (not compatible with each other). The first is more "I think this is just a direct improvement on the current system", the second is more my thoughts on a change that would work in general.

- Incremental Hour Gap:
Instead of always checking for a static 36 hour gap, the gap must be more than the number of hours left before the battle deadline.
Reasoning: If the battle ends with several days left before the deadline, both players must have played fast anyways.
- Block Hours
If we actively want Circuit to specifically test the ability to play very quickly, and so consider it desirable, I think it's still important to not punish players for "having one thing come up/one irl commitment" (for example in the form of "I'm busy this weekend"). But it's even more unfair if someone doesn't finish their match because of this.
Therefore I suggest:
Players have 24 Round Hours, 24 traditional Battle Hours, and one 48-hour "Hour Block". The way this works is that the single round you spent the most hours in uses up your "Hour Block" (and possibly additional hours, if you spent more time on that round), and that amount of time does not affect tiebreakers, except if fewer rounds than the round limit were played. In other words, you get one round on which you can take as long as the previous rules allowed, and it doesn't cost you the game to do so (for example, if you need to go for a weekend), but incrementally spending a few battle hours every round isn't safe. I think this has a nice balance of rewarding playing fast and not punishing something coming up.
(And what if two things come up? ...Well, then you probably can't play circuit. But that was also true under the old rules, that's just too much time to be away.)
 
Update on my type berries feedback. I think they are meant to be permanent but it was never added to the DAT?
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Wondering if we could get a reminder somewhere in the Silvally kit that the memories are immutable similar to the reminder text on the mega stones :pleading:

Currently it's not on any part of the item, the ability, the mon, or 5.10 (the section the mon trait directs you to) it's only in 6.3a
 
I wanted to get my thoughts on disciplines written down in a more organized way, both so players not on the Discord can be privy to the conversation, and to articulate my thoughts in a more coherent form. Much of this is rehashed from the Discord convo a few days ago, though some of it is new.

Disciplines, in their current state, currently do not encourage customization, nor do they fulfill the fantasy of training a pokemon in a unique way. Instead, they present an optimization puzzle in much the same vein as natures, albeit notably more complex. Players are thus geared to view discipline choices as either 'right' or 'wrong', which has resulted in some friction due to the current extremely high cost of fixing 'wrong' discipline choices.

I believe this boils down to four main issues:
  • Firstly, Disciplines mostly represent very small, niche, and situational bonuses that are hard to get excited for. In many cases, it's hard to see the choice you made having any impact at all on how it feels to play the pokemon, or in how battles play out. This in turn makes it difficult to feel any attachment to these choices, especially if you can see a potentially better option. This only becomes more likely to be true the less geared you are towards optimization in general, as such players are less likely to notice and appreciate these types of bonuses.
  • Secondly, Disciplines are poorly balanced at the present. Many disciplines are just vastly weaker than others. Stout, Headstrong, Imitative, Mischievious, Hubristic, Elitist, and all versions of Hungry are all most likely trap options with few or no use cases. Meanwhile Precise, Graceful, and Devious often make it hard to justify taking any of the other options at their level, even the useful ones. As a result, there are many less options than it initially appears.
  • Thirdly, many disciplines are geared towards rewarding pokemon for having highly specific traits. Tenacious rewards users of Guts, Poison Heal, and similar and is seldom worthwhile otherwise. Toxic and Frigid reward pokemon who want to inflict specific status effects in specific ways. Efficient rewards pokemon who have high-energy moves they want to click. Patient rewards users of Delayed attacks. And so on. Disciplines like this highly incentivize picking them if your pokemon has the trait that's being rewarded, and highly disincentivize picking them otherwise. This effect further narrows down the pool of viable options for each pokemon. It also sets people up to feel bad if there aren't any disciplines that reward their mon's specific traits.
  • Finally, disciplines are highly restrictive in which ones can be taken together. You can only take one discipline of each level, and you can also only take one discipline of each tag. This drastically reduces the possible combinations of disciplines available.
All of these issues taken together mean each pokemon has only a scant few viable discipline sets to choose from, if they even have more than one. As a result, it is exceedingly likely that players (especially less optimization-minded ones) end up with discipline sets they aren't happy with or excited to use. Indeed, rather than trying to come up with their own unique discipline sets, many players are likely to be better served by simply looking at what the most competitive players are doing and copying them.

I do believe disciplines can be a good mechanic, and a good replacement for natures. However, these problems will need to be addressed if they are to reach their full potential.
 
Some dat bugs;

Priority tag is missing from Accelerock
Self-switching tag is missing from U-turn
Self sacrifice tag is missing from Final Gambit
Ability ignoring tag is missing from Light That Burns the Sky
(Identifying which ones are missing seems to be which ones had a typo/case sensitive difference in the patch notes)

Torch Song has an accuracy of 100 not 100% currently
 
Please have a close look at the updated rules 10.4, 10.5, and 10.6, before I implement them:

LouisCyphre

Resource Post in thread 'BBP Bug and Feedback Thread - Generation 9 Edition!'

here, i'll be writing up the "final draft" of sub rules before moving them to the handbook, for public scrutiny. it'll take me a while to fully build them out.

this work will also help consolidate and address inconsistencies that cropped up over the new sub system's dev cycle

regular bug/feedback posts can continue after this post


update: I've stored the old 9.3 Sub rules here.

[10.4]​

Evaluating Substitutions

A substitution is checked, or "evaluated", at each moment specified by its timing clause. If the substitution's trigger component is...
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I'd like to be sure they work before I implement them.
 
Should the :rillaboom::cinderace::inteleon: Galarian Starters have 16 BAP on their G-Max moves?
While other G-Max moves have variable BAP, the starters specifically have 16 BAP on their G-Max moves regardless of their original move.
 
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by my reading, Counter will still execute vs a low-damage physical attack will still execute, so it's a fixed damage hit with 0 bap, which has a minimum damage of 1

unsure if this is intentional but it feels bad that it'll proc things like sticky barb and damage decoys
 
HONEY GATHER IS TOO STRONG-
:sv/ribombee:
Each foe's Evasion stage is reduced by one (1).

While it is a round where the user entered play: The user has Recovery Forte 12.
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Regardless of my circuit match against it, I do think honey gather's healing is currently overtuned. Regardless of Ribombee's bulk I don't think healing basically 24 every time is healthy for balancing.
While there is counter-play in moves such as psychic noise, heal block, and burn, I do not think that the number should be this high. Look at Regenerator, that thing is like, 10, and this is more twice that amount...

It would be one thing for it to just exist but Ribombee just has tools to mitigate this. Most instances of burn can be blown out by powder or blocked by shield dust (psychic noise gets blocked too, by the way), as a bug Ribombee can deal an okay amount of damage to most psychics. It's a fine user of pure incense with its low stats and can also easy hold a life orb due to its healing factor. Even then it can just click imprison because its just so darn fast. Even if you wanted to make the healing useless by not attacking, you're somewhat limited setup-wise due to it also knowing the near unstoppable psych-up. Access to U-turn also makes it harder to properly trap and properly trapping it might even let it make more progress against you anyway.

It's a little insane that I could say "34 damage per step" and this would not 3hko Ribombee even if it were to just stand there. It take 78 damage and would have 7 HP remaining.
(I could also argue with these points that Ribombee should not be free tech but that's a little more rough.)
 
In Switch=OFF battles, Technique Conditions can be discarded by Switching and Phazing. They can also be discarded by Purge Conditions, but that is probably necessary.

Switching said:
This condition can't be transferred.

When this condition is created: Discard Phazing from the subject.

When this condition is created, if the match rules do not allow switching for the subject's trainer: Reset the subject's stages to 0, and discard all non-Major conditions from them. (Including this one.)

At the start of the Switching Phase: Return the subject to their trainer's Bench. The subject must be replaced with a different Pokemon if possible.
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Phazing said:
When this condition is created: Discard Switching from the subject.

When this condition is created, if the match rules do not allow switching for the subject's trainer: Reset the subject's stages to 0, and discard all non-Major conditions from them. (Including this one.)

At the start of the Switching Phase, if the subject's trainer has any inactive Pokemon they could send out: Return the subject to their trainer's Bench. The subject must be replaced with a different Pokemon if possible.
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Purge Conditions said:
(This is an exclusive command. If the user is not a Raid Pokemon, opposed by one or more Raiders, this command can't be attempted. If this command has been executed during this step or the prior step, this command can't be attempted.)

This command can also target the user.

While attempting or performing this command: Conditions created by Raiders are ignored.

Create a unique condition on the defender named Purged; for the next three (3) steps if the defender is a Raider and for the next one (1) step otherwise; noting the names of each other Condition on the defender that was created by Raiders, with the following effect:
● Stack Limit: Infinite
● Each stack of this condition has its own duration.
● The subject is unaffected by the noted conditions.
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round should probably do something that doesn't behave badly with round + explosion (I suggested Amplify or fixed power bonus of 6 or power bonus of bap to a max of 12 on discord, Lou said just make it set to 12 which makes more sense if we want it to not work with combos at all)
 
pokemon with fainting have minimum and maximum of 0 in every stage. this means that explosion ignores the user's atk stages.
(suggest "while no pokemon is acting: " on stage caps, though not totally sure that fixes it)
 
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