Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[VannAccessible]

PREFACE: I AM SO SORRY!

So I took a good look at BDSP meta trends and a few things became clear while looking at what's popular:
Azelf Screens HO
Stall
Hazard stacking
Few viable dark types, namely Tyranitar and Weavile (and sometimes Honchkrow and Drapion)
Unaware Clefable
Gengar
Breloom
Gliscor
Heatran
Defensive Scizor

With all that in mind I whipped up a team that utilized not one but TWO sleeper threats I felt the BDSP meta was totally and utterly unprepared for, Espeon and Sableye. While I won't post the actual team as I feel it can still be vastly improved, it hit high 1500s, so there is some definite merit with these two, either together or seperately.

The Espeon set I came up with is this meta's equivalent of SS OU's Demon Mew. Here's Demon Espeon... Demonpeon?

Espeon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Curse
- Morning Sun

I thought to myself, with so few dark types around, a mono-Stored Power sweeper could absolutely tear shit apart, and I was right. I tried Reflect Type Latias for a sec, but it was clear it was very inconsistent, as Latias can't raise its defense and needs to invest in speed to use Reflect Type well, which means its less bulky over all. Latias also couldn't sweep worth a damn as it was prone to status and Taunt and phazing. However, Espeon here has Magic Bounce, and it doesn't give a damn about any of that. Taunt? Toxic? Thunder Wave? Whirlwind? Roar? Spore? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Espeon takes absolutely advantage of any passive mon on your foe's team and becomes an utter wrecking ball after a turn or two of set up and can 6-0 Shedninjaless stall, as many of them rely on Blissey and Unaware Clefable. I had a replay it didn't save I guess :/

Look at the list of passive things Espeon can set up in front of:
Blissey
Gliscor
Skarmory
Heatran
Tangrowth
Quagsire
Slowbro/Slowking
Empoleon
Defensive Defog Scizor (no Swords Dance)

Rundown: So as I'm sure you're aware, Stored Power is a Psychic type move that accumulates 20 BP for every boost you've accumulated. Calm Mind raises Special Attack and Special Defense, that's a given, but the real secret to making Espeon pull off sweeps is actually Curse of all things! With full defensive bulk investment, and naturally decent special bulk, and Curse and Calm Mind raising raising its defenses, Espeon quickly becomes unbreakable (besides crits, gl). After a boost or two, the lowered speed becomes a nonissue as it is traded for pure bulk. The other genius thing about Curse is that the Attack and Defense boosts STILL continuously add to Stored Power's strength but 40 BP with every use. Wowie.

With a double dance set, Espeon has the ability to select which of its defenses it needs to raise first depending on what's in front of it, or the threats waiting in the back. For instance, use of Curse in front of a Gliscor or Skarmory, or when the foe has a Breloom or Garchomp in the back, or use Calm Mind in front of Heatran or if the foe has a Gengar or Latios waiting in the back. Espeon quickly becomes absolutely overwhelming. It can beat Gengar if it's accumulated some Calm Mind boosts, but as I said earlier, Espeon needs to stay totally clear of dark types, as it cannot touch them. Since many Scizors are running defensive Defog sets, and U-Turn exits on use, Curse Espeon often beats Scizor too. Burning it with Sableye (as I did) or Flame Body Heatran would also help Espeon's odds of success against Scizor.

Espeon is also not just an endgame sweeper. Midgame, Espeon is absolutely useful too, switching into hazard setting things like Skarmory or Gliscor or Heatran or Empoleon to yeet back hazards.

I didn't run screen support with this thing, as I opted to run a stall build with it, but theoretically, Espeon could absolutely be run on HO with screens to great effect. Its manner of boosting is a little slow for HO's style but Magic Bounce does have some nice utility as it helps control hazards, and even more impressively, MAGIC BOUNCE PREVENTS DEFOG FROM REMOVING SCREENS.

---------------------------------------------------------

Professor Chaos

Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover

Math time!
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Rapid Spin Starmie and Donphan good again = Sableye spinblocker good
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Defog good = Taunt Sableye good
Screens HO Explosion Azelf good = Taunt Sableye good
Final Gambit leads good = Sableye good
Stall good = Taunt Sableye Stallbreaker good
Few Fairy types = Sableye good
Few Dark types = Will o' Wisp Sableye good
Gengar + Alakazam good = Sp Def Sableye good
Mach Punch Breloom and Extreme Speed Dragonite / Lucario good = Sableye good
Limited Knock Off = Sableye good

Sableye is just insanely good at disruption in this meta. Prankster gives it priority on Taunt, Will o' and Recover. It excels on hazard stack builds, which is why I chose to run it along with Spikes Skarmory, as it beats Starmie, Donphan, Forretress (anyone use that?) and with Taunt Defog Scizor and Empoleon and Latias. It beats Gengar. It drives stall crazy, walling Blissey, Skarmory, Knocking Off Leftovers on Clefable and Tangrowth, preventing recover and Taunt with hazards, burning everything. Gliscor and Heatran hate losing their items. Offense hates it too, as it prevents screen set up on Azelf, hazard set up, burns things that have already set up. I don't know what else to say. It's Sableye. He's chaos incarnate.

Just remember Prankster does not work on dark types like Tyranitar and Weavile, and it cant do much to Infernape, so when using Sableye, be sure to cover those weaknesses. I did not cover Infernape so well on my team, which is a big reason of why it still needed improvement.

-------------------------

LET'S POST SOME EXAMPLES OF ESPEON AND SABLEYE BEING A FRIGGIN NIGHTMARE AGAIN I'M SO SORRY:

The Espeon fun starts turn 12. Look at that damage on Bronzong. I'd quit too:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469917943-rb2j6cbyis3ug2mlgeuvdqz6470724opw

Espeon beats Def Scizor 1v1, it was a crit, but I don't think it mattered:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469976114

Sableye just harassing this whole team really. I felt bad :(
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469890733

Sableye doing more Sableye shit, whittling down Rotom, preventing offensive Starmie from spinning rocks showing its use on hazard stack builds. Otherwise, taunting, burning, Knock Off. Also a nice double with Espeon on Jirachi to keep Stealth Rock off the field.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470014822

My favorite game with Espeon and Sableye against a very solid balance team. Manfuba gets a little sassy, so I start sassing back. He totally mocks Curse Espeon and proceeds to be wrecked by it, karma. Plus Sable messing up Gliscor and Scizor. Also illustrates how Sableye burning Defog Scizor helps Clefable break it, clearing an Espeon sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470072474-ekf1w82zojqvimgeiic0bdnv2e01vibpw

 

[Liquidocelot]

The fact that it bears Spiritomb and Sableye? Or the fact it can spin + provide consistent offensive pressure + while having longevity (which is not true! ) Unfortunately Starmie does not have 5 moveslots, and it cant run all the offensive moves it wants, you either not run TBolt and get walled by by all the waters, or you dont run Ice Beam and become a free switch in for one of the best offensive breakers in the metagame (Latios) and a few other miscellaneous things (Alongside not forcing out stuff like Dragonite immedietely).

Fair enough though IMO I still think Starmie is the best or second best mon in the meta ATM.

It's a spinner that doesn't lose to a single spinblocker (outside of Shedninja who loses to hazards). In a metagame where spikes and SR are extremely strong. Which IMO makes spinning stronger than fogging as fogging removes hazards from the other side as well as your own.

It has an absolutely deadly speed tier. Being faster than every non scarf OU mon except Kazam, Azelf and Aerodactly. And with rapid spins +1 to speed it can then outspeed everything else in the game easily.

While true it has 4mss. It also can run a variety of sets. To defensive spinner, with recover + Spin + 2 moves with nat cure or a more offensive version of this with Analytic

It can run LO Analytic spin + 3 attacks of which Hydro + Bolt Beam is the best and its near unsswitchable into. (The only mon that really can is Gastro.) With this set it's also a good revenge killer due to its crazy speed tier.

And if you are running fog, it can just straight up run a LO 4 attacks moveset and be an incredible wall breaker on its own freeing up room for another mon to clean up and a final note is it's resistant to the 2 most common forms of priority in the tier in BP and Mach Punch which is a bonus.

I'm not saying Starmie is broken. It's not, it has flaws such as suffering from 4MSS and being relatively frail. However it's mix of utility both support wise, offensively and defensively make it the best mom in the tier IMO. Except maybe Scizor.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think it’s been mentioned but so impressed with Vileplume in BDSP OU.

Always the kiddie pool in earlier generations— way way down the list of meh Grasses, but this tier I think if you’re looking for a good physically defensive grass for this meta... I mean sure Tangrowth can do similar and Regenerator busted as usual but Plume’s Fighting and Fairy resists are a Godsend in this meta (Breloom, Azu, Lucario, U-Turn the meta) and Strength Sap is just soooooo good. Effect Spore doing Effect spore things definitely cool too. But 110 Base Special attack, Sludge Bomb’s poison chance, and Sleep Powder against a meta with no Ferrothorn and only other grasses terrified of the aforementioned Sludge Bomb... just gives this thing so many opportunities to make progress even while investing primarily in defenses. While I like more attacking moves b/c it seems such a waste to be mono-attacking from 110 special, Leech Seed and Stun Spore also hits all these mons with grasses terrified to switch-in, including the Steels switching into expected Sludge Bombs.

Oh and of course Sludge Bomb Vileplume is great to have as a late-game check to Clefable.
You don't want to switch into it often (unless you know it lacks Fire Move/Ice Beam), but it's so easy for Clefable to out-last most of its checks with Magic Guard and so easy for teams to forget to save some way to kill it-- but Vileplume's constant healing means it has a decent shot of sticking around to finish off the Pink Blob with Sludge Bombs at the end; and sometimes having some way to make sure you can finish off Clefable is ALL you need to wrap a game up. I think people should see Plume as a legit B-ish rank mon.

 

[QY_CS]

Not having counters =/= broken, and vice versa. It really sucks to have to reiterate this every single day ong. Anyways, I am curious to see where you found the person using 4 attacks Garchomp. Anyways, you forgot to mention a lot of issues about Garchomp, it has to predict on the switch in for most of this to actually matter, and the fact that it is extremely easily worn down, especially with Life Orb. Unfortunately and fortunately for Garchomp, it happens to have a great defensive profile, which means you can rely on it to switch it in to soft check stuff like Infernape, Heatran, Tyranitar, and Magnezone. This means oftentimes its amazing offensive prescence is quite quickly neutered by common offensive plays. Yes, if you play extremely passively and give Garchomp 20 free turns and lose every predict it will dismantle your team, but realistically this wont happen. What will happen though is (VS a good team and a player who knows a semblance of the meta), at best Garchomp might get the opportunity to claim one kill or so, and still has to predict to do that, but it will exert pressure to the team and still soft check the aforementioned threats well and will basically always do something, its really on the player to choose how much Garchomp will do to your team, and thats why it is a A tier Pokemon in peoples eyes, no doubt about that. Another issue with it is Garchomp has great utility. When I use Garchomp I want it to also be my rocker, hey thats 1 less move now that my Garchomp cant use ! Realistically, it is hard and uncommon for Garchomp to be able to fit every move it wants, ans it definitely isnt a “click the wrong button and lose” Pokemon.

I completely agree that not having counters =/= broken, but when you pair it with the great speed it has it is seriously a threat. Any attackers can of course be dented by offensive presence: even Blaziken can get one shot by some heavy priorities! But that's not the point. The point is that Garchomp can already spam earthquake to kill most pokemons slower than it, and me not listing the cases doesn't mean the ability to spam is less so. I only listed the passive pokemons because they are the most common one that doesn't get crumbled by earthquake and can somehow force Garchomp to predict. But remember: its never the Garchomp's side's pressure to make a predict, when he knows that you will swap something else in. 333 speed is higher than a vast majority of the meta, yes it is not as quick as the common offensive plays, and when you put yourself into the view of Garchomp VS HO ofc it aint going to hurt a lot. You could also argue that HO are common but guess what: its literally Garchomp and Manaphy that killed off all the balance! Imagine running a team where 4-5 pokemons are slower than Garchomp. You'd literally just autolose unless you are full stall, because nothing swaps into chomp. Its nothing like 20 free turns to chomp when you literally have to be forced to swap in something that takes its earthquake (and not get ko'd by the follow up SE or fire blast) whenever chomp swaps in. Oh wait, dont forget that you also need to predict that he doesn't use Swords Dance whenever you swap in. Your arguments on the 4 attacks chomp also makes no sense, as its your responsibility to tell which move the garchomp is running. Unless u bring 3 mons that all can take earthquake easily and needs a specific moves to kill, you won't be able to safely play against any SD chomp. Needing a stealth rocker is your own problem for teammaking, and shouldnt be referenced at all to address its 4mss: it does suffer a little from 4mss, but SR is not a valid reason to say it suffers from it. Lastly, Garchomp isn't even that easy to chip: its resist Stealth Rocks and can survive better than most LO attackers you can think of.

tldr:
1. Don't consider HO only because Garchomp's problem (and Manaphy's) is that it literally murdered balance.
2. Garchomp have much more chances to tear the opposing team open than what the opponents could respond to during its lifespan in a game.
3. 4MSS is not a valid argument: it neither is forced to or needs to run 4 attacks to break though most teams without specific counter that requires a special move to break through.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Overall I’d say Garchomp feels wayyyyy more balanced than it did in early DP. Having Latios/Latias around as faster dragons totally changes the dynamic, especially when we can’t Pursuit them with TTar/Special Defensive Scizor. Those two and Starmie being soooo much better really changes how Chomp can play. The fairies also matter because Azumarril and Clefable are just such dominant mons regardless of whether Chomp is played or not and affect when/how Chomp can go for the sweep even if they’re not strict counters.

Oh and of course Weavile, who had just a terrible move pool in DP and felt like a terrible liability because it let CB Scizor in almost for free to get an almost guaranteed gut-busting U-Turn on your team and if not the Weavile Kill than at least 25% SR damage to Weavile next time. Steel losing Dark resist is huge even with Throat Chop as main stab.

I think having a player base used to modern Metas where Chomp is a standard middle-of-the-road and not a radical super mon as it was well perceived by early DP players also affects its efficacy, with the players themselves knowing a lot more about Chomp’s shortcomings and techniques to play around it than we had back then.

Generally the much higher Speeds (Lati@s, Starmie, Gengar, Weavile, Alakazam, Infernape all being better mons than back then) and greater priority (Aqua Jet Azu, Tech Loom, Adaptability Crawdaunt, and even ExtremeSpeed Dragonite and Tech Bullet Punch Scizor were not legal in early DP when Garchomp was Perfect Chomp) just prevents Chomp from being what it was back then. The rest of Sinnoh’s mons have spend a bit too much time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber since then.

Maybe Chomp still proves busted to the modern player base— but as someone who played early DP though I can’t help but feel amazed by how much weaker it is to what it was.

 

[MadFattieChef]

H A U N T E R

I've been using Haunter this generation instead of Gengar in most of my offensive teams looking for a scarf user. Gengar is so strong so Haunter makes enough sense to me for it to be strong

W H Y ?

Ground immunity, spikes and sticky webs immune

S O __ W H A T ?

Ground immunity - Gives it more opportunities vs Gliscor, especially if they're not carrying Knock Off. Can create mind games for VSing non-scarf Garchomp, makes Earthquake less of a free move to throw out overall. If you do end up switching into an Earthquake with Haunter then you may have swung the momentum of the game

Spikes immunity - from what I noticed when playing: stall enjoys using their spikes. Most of the time anything Haunter can't kill vs stall; the same goes for Gengar. With spikes immunity it means that Haunter can come in vs entry hazards more freely. With a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up: Gengar only has 4 switch-ins while Haunter has 8

Sticky Web immunity - Though sticky webs aren't as common: it still is something that Gengar would not appreciate, especially if its faced VS the likes of Starmie, Weavile and Alakazam. Even a scarf Gengar can't do much with Sticky Web below its feet. Haunter does not have this issue meaning that it can blow past these kinds of offensive teams with less pressure

W H Y __ N O T __ M I S M A G I U S ?

I have tried Mismagius. It's good but trust me when I say I believe that Haunter is better than it offensively. With a very powerful offensive typing its able to deal with fairies really well. Mismagius does have better bulk which can be abused but it's so much weaker that it needs a boosting item with Mystical Fire or Psychic alone for it to KO Breloom. Mismagius also cannot deal with Fairies nearly as well.

W H E R E __ T O __ U S E __ H A U N T E R

idk just replace a scarf Gengar in one of your teams for a scarf Haunter and try it out. The power difference is 10% and bulk is way less but that's why I use it as a scarfer - I don't expect it to take a hit. Haunter is very frail but it's not going to die to weaker resisted hits like U turns. The pokemon is fun and levitate is a very strong ability to have

H A U N T E R __ S E T S:

Choice Scarf
4def / 252+ spA / 252 speed
- Shadow Ball
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- ########


OLDER SET I USED TO USE
Black Sludge
4 def / 252 + spA / 252 speed
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute


My favourite one is the choice scarfer. I use Modest instead of Timid because it still outspeeds base 80 scarfers like Gardevoir. I also want it to hit as hard as possible. Timid in my opinion is kind of useless because its such an awkward speed tier. I use Hex on this for Gliscor. Modest Haunter is 361: 2 points stronger than Timid Gengar so I don't feel like showing calcs are necessary

Haunter is interesting. Try it out instead of Scarf Gengar in one of one of your teams can afford it. You'll be rewarded more in certain matchups if you play it right

===========================================================================================

R E P L A Y S

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1463130632-gz0duh1fncbxb6q4uwx67jm83sv2no6pw - Switched in vs Gliscor's EQ giving me a free turn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1471360542 - vs sticky webs. Outsped non scarf Gengar
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469167053 - vs Facade EQ Gliscor. It had nothing it could touch Haunter with
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469167053 - vs another Facade EQ Gliscor

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1471943870 -- vs Gliscor with U turn and Earthquake. Haunter was taking miniscule amounts of damage vs Gliscor's U turn. If this was a scarfed Gengar in this instance then it would have been much more vulnerable to it

I will begin saving my replays when Haunter makes any relevant plays and updating this for people to see. I had many clutch games where the ground immunity came in handy though I never documented the majority of them

=============================================================================================

 

[AM]

Bro just use Gengar lol.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Bro just use Gengar lol.

I don't know if I'm feeling the Haunter in OU choice myself, but you sure didn't waste any time in letting us know you didn't read the post you were responding to. The point was to provide a Ground immunity as well. As the post alludes to, Mismagius would be the primary replacement in this role

 

[AM]

I read the whole thing actually, like I do with most posts. It's clearly a worse option to use. I'm all for creativity if it's actually practical. Where are the replays? Why do we not encourage the use of replays to support these niche options?

 

[VannAccessible]

I mean I’ve used Haunter in doubles with Trick Room for its lower speed, priority immunities and synergy with and against Earthquake.

I could see it having a niche as a scarf mon when you want to have a ground immunity. It could also be paired with Gengar for some ghost spam since dark types are few and far between and Blissey struggles against Sub Gengar. Someone should whip up a double ghost team, I’d like to see it in action. :)

 

[Lalaya]

I mean I’ve used Haunter in doubles with Trick Room for its lower speed, priority immunities and synergy with and against Earthquake.

I could see it having a niche as a scarf mon when you want to have a ground immunity. It could also be paired with Gengar for some ghost spam since dark types are few and far between and Blissey struggles against Sub Gengar.

We're not in Doubles right now (and I argue you can find better TR setters, like Bronzong if you desire that Levitate), and if you want to do a ghost spam-kind of team, which can work... why not Mismagius?
Point is, gimmicks that have a place in the tier should have some examples of them working, otherwise it's just... theorymonning at best, which won't win you games or prove a point. Why should anyone use Haunter at all? Please provide clear examples in which it would make it better to have *overall*, not just counterteaming certain, specific builds; Levitate, for instance, doesn't really matter in why we're using Gengar in the place of all the other Ghosts.

 

[VannAccessible]

We're not in Doubles right now (and I argue you can find better TR setters, like Bronzong if you desire that Levitate), and if you want to do a ghost spam-kind of team, which can work... why not Mismagius?
Point is, gimmicks that have a place in the tier should have some examples of them working, otherwise it's just... theorymonning at best, which won't win you games or prove a point. Why should anyone use Haunter at all? Please provide clear examples in which it would make it better to have *overall*, not just counterteaming certain, specific builds; Levitate, for instance, doesn't really matter in why we're using Gengar in the place of all the other Ghosts.

Haunter shares good qualities of both Gengar and Mismagius with its 115 Sp Atk.

Haunter hits harder than Mismagius and like Gengar has Poison STAB, which is invaluable against Fairies and Breloom. It's the best offensive ghost Trick Room setter, as its slower than either of them. I would also argue that Stall struggles with Sub Taunt Haunter as much as Sub Plot Gengar, as Haunter is immune to Quagsire and Gliscor's EQs. Note that I didn't make the original post bringing up Haunter. I too would like some replays. That doesn't make it not worth discussing. I'm just agreeing that yes, I believe Haunter does have competitive merit, and no, not just in Doubles.

Ghost spam could be really soild in this meta. I may get around to making such a team, but if someone else wants to work shop such a team, Haunter is worth consideration.

 

[MadFattieChef]

I read the whole thing actually, like I do with most posts. It's clearly a worse option to use. I'm all for creativity if it's actually practical. Where are the replays? Why do we not encourage the use of replays to support these niche options?

I've edited the post and posted some replays. I will have more prepared at some point as I am using Haunter in OU anyway

 

[MadFattieChef]

Haunter shares good qualities of both Gengar and Mismagius with its 115 Sp Atk.

Haunter hits harder than Mismagius and like Gengar has Poison STAB, which is invaluable against Fairies and Breloom. It's the best offensive ghost Trick Room setter, as its slower than either of them. I would also argue that Stall struggles with Sub Taunt Haunter as much as Sub Plot Gengar, as Haunter is immune to Quagsire and Gliscor's EQs. Note that I didn't make the original post bringing up Haunter. I too would like some replays. That doesn't make it not worth discussing. I'm just agreeing that yes, I believe Haunter does have competitive merit, and no, not just in Doubles.

Ghost spam could be really soild in this meta. I may get around to making such a team, but if someone else wants to work shop such a team, Haunter is worth consideration.

I've built a team with Haunter + Gengar before both running Choice Scarf. That team was very interesting. It capitalized on the power of their STABs. If I ever choose run that team again I'll edit this specific post with some fun results
here's the team. Highest I hit was around 1420 in 1 sitting ==== https://pokepast.es/c6c512d9c607452c

Also yeah when facing stall I've had Haunter live 2 scalds from Quagsire from my memory, which is infinitely better than getting dropped by an EQ / EQ w/ rocks/spikes

Haunter + Gengar chaos team
I don't have replays of this team because the night I used it I just wanted to click buttons. Double ghost was interesting. It denied practically every rapid spinner ever because the damage these guys would do to the spinners would either OHKO or damage them so hard that they couldn't get the spin off. It was funny to use

 

[QY_CS]

I was really interested in the idea of Haunter over Gengar, but after repeated usage I realized that its biggest weakness is not Ground, but priorities. 45/45 is significantly weaker than 60/60 and it really hurts against stuff like scizor, azumarill, and weavile.
Edit: much better than i expected in ghost spam, but i guess this is just because meta doesn't resist ghost too well

 

[Hobie]

I can't really say that I agree about the result of Latios staying in the tier but tbh I didn't get voting reqs so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ at least I find Latios to be fun. Now it seems the discussion will begin to focus on Manaphy who I also see as an unhealthy presence in the tier but is a lot less fun (I'll def make a post about why I think that in the suspect thread when it comes up). What're your guys thoughts on Manaphy?

 

[VannAccessible]

I didn’t bother to pursue voting recs for Latios, even though I think I would’ve qualified. But yeah, Latios ain’t broken. Every playstyle has something to deal with it, be it priority and Scarfs on offense (and let’s not forget screens), defensively you have Protect scouting for Specs sets, Blissey, Scizor, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Gardevoir, and CM Clef. Trick Room is pretty solid as a playstyle in this meta and Latios is totally dead weight against that. Latios is fine.

Manaphy though? This thing deserved to be quickbanned more than Blaziken IMO. Manaphy has no place in this tier. At least Blaziken had to deal with priority, Slowbro, Defensive Starmie, Dragonite, Latios, and more niche things like Qwilfish and Tentacruel, and otherwise intelligent sacks to Flare Blitz recoil. Manaphy just can’t be countered appropriately, offensively or defensively.

The only true checks are Calm Mind Blissey and Haze Mantine, both of which are suboptimal Pokémon, and the fact that these sets are being run shows how overcentralizing Manaphy is. Skill Swap blanks Unaware Clef, so don’t say that’s a true check. Then Shedinja is a niche pokemon that can be dealt with in a number of other ways, my favorites being Garchomp/Flame Body Heatran switch ins, swapping in Mew on Will o’ Wisp, weather chip and Hazards + Whirlwind/Roar.

(Edit: Thank you for correcting me that Skill Swap doesn’t work or Shedinja anymore, JustinCaseD. My point stands that needing Shed for Manaphy shows its brokenness, while playing around Shed is still doable for the Manaphy player.)

Empoleon can Roar Manaphy (once) but can’t do anything else to it, so if Manaphy is saved as the last poke of the team, RIP. Also, Empoleon is easily worn down since it doesn’t have recovery besides leftovers. AND IT’S MAGNEZONE DEATH FODDER.

Ok, defensively checking Manaphy is hard. What about offense? More doable right? Guess again! Manaphy is a staple on HO Screens and with some modest bulk investment, it is almost guaranteed 1-2 kills per game. God forbid someone puts Healing Wish on Screens HO so they have two Manaphies. Oh Lordy.

(This is also not an argument for this current meta but once home releases, Manaphy will have access to HP Electric, so even Mantine won’t be safe.)

Tl;dr: Ban this blue bastard.

 

[Lalaya]

And of course the jet survived, much to my disappointment, since seeing Latios banned would have opened a lot more in checking how messed up things are in the meta and how - ironically - Latios is both a symptom and the hiding place of them
First off, without Latios the most solid and splashable check of Manaphy would have been gone, which would have opened the can of worms and most likely led Manaphy to its death; second, again, thanks to Latios' splashability in most teams, we can't get to see things like Zam thrive even more than we're already seeing, and that's just covering the iceberg
I still can't get how a Pokèmon that's free to throw Meteors in the face of everyone and make the oppo choose in either lose momentum and heal, or keep momentum and turn away, making their checks more susceptible to other Meteors being allowed; you can't punish a Latios in making the wrong move, at most you're just punishing the player making bad choices in what to follow after the Meteor, although at least it enables setuppers in beating the shit outta another switch-in - but checking broken with broken doesn't mean Latios should stay; also, a side effect of Latios remaining here is in how it WILL hog the spotlight off other threats (again, most prominently Manaphy, but not only), since he's both the problem solver and a problem all by itself. I, and not only me, had so many build ideas that can't just be applied with Latios and Manaphy staying, because they're just so overwhelming both in building and in practice, even if offensive counterplay exists; why should I be forced into running SpDef steels because the tier has so many issues is beyond me, and the one thing we could have done to ease the pressure a bit, we fucked it up.

Ofc whoever runs HO or stall won't probably care about this, but why should I be forced with dealing with having half of the possible archetypes getting bad or just unusable because the tier is so offensive-geared I'm starting to see Ditto stall again is beyond me
Latios is one of the causes, but not the only one, and I very well know that; still, it WOULD have been a step in the right direction to ease a lot of pressure off the tier, and now we have to deal with the Manaphy suspect with one of its strongest checks being available, and other people that will think Manaphy is balanced because Latios is still present

Well, most of the cord already knows all the things I said about this so I don't wanna do a super giant WoT over this; I'm just gonna hope yall don't screw it up again

 

[JustInCaseD]

Skill Swap blanks Unaware Clef and Shedninja, so don’t say those are true checks, because they are not. (Also, Shedninja is a niche pokemon that can be dealt with in a number of ways.)

Just a heads up that Skill Swap doesn't work on Shedinja, Wonder Guard is one of the few abilities immune to the move. It cannot be copied or taken outside of being Traced. Had a few folks try it on me when I was running a Shedinja team during the Lati suspect.

That bit of corrected information aside, I agree that Shedinja is not a "good" overall answer for Manaphy. It does full on wall it (unless you're that 1 madman who'd run Shadow Ball over all its better options), but is very easy to play around given Manaphy's common partners of Rough Skin Chomp, Flame Body Tran, hazard setting phasers like Skarm or Emp, or occasional weather setter that instantly disposes of it. I definitely have strong opinions on the blue blob and will write them out once the suspect thread opens and commences, and (spoilers) hope to see it leave the tier after it runs its course. The fact we're having to resort to gimmicks like Shedinja as one of the top answers to handle this monstrosity is a testament that speaks for itself.

 

[nimzowitsch]

I didn’t bother to pursue voting recs for Latios, even though I think I would’ve qualified. But yeah, Latios ain’t broken. Every playstyle has something to deal with it, be it priority and Scarfs on offense (and let’s not forget screens), defensively you have Protect scouting for Specs sets, Blissey, Scizor, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Gardevoir, and CM Clef. Trick Room is pretty solid as a playstyle in this meta and Latios is totally dead weight against that. Latios is fine.

Manaphy though? This thing deserved to be quickbanned more than Blaziken IMO. Manaphy has no place in this tier. At least Blaziken had to deal with priority, Slowbro, Defensive Starmie, Dragonite, Latios, and more niche things like Qwilfish and Tentacruel, and otherwise intelligent sacks to Flare Blitz recoil. Manaphy just can’t be countered appropriately, offensively or defensively.

The only true checks are Calm Mind Blissey and Haze Mantine, both of which are suboptimal Pokémon, and the fact that these sets are being run shows how overcentralizing Manaphy is. Skill Swap blanks Unaware Clef, so don’t say that’s a true check. Then Shedinja is a niche pokemon that can be dealt with in a number of other ways, my favorites being Garchomp/Flame Body Heatran switch ins, swapping in Mew on Will o’ Wisp, weather chip and Hazards + Whirlwind/Roar.

(Edit: Thank you for correcting me that Skill Swap doesn’t work or Shedinja anymore, JustinCaseD. My point stands that needing Shed for Manaphy shows its brokenness, while playing around Shed is still doable for the Manaphy player.)

Empoleon can Roar Manaphy (once) but can’t do anything else to it, so if Manaphy is saved as the last poke of the team, RIP. Also, Empoleon is easily worn down since it doesn’t have recovery besides leftovers. AND IT’S MAGNEZONE DEATH FODDER.

Ok, defensively checking Manaphy is hard. What about offense? More doable right? Guess again! Manaphy is a staple on HO Screens and with some modest bulk investment, it is almost guaranteed 1-2 kills per game. God forbid someone puts Healing Wish on Screens HO so they have two Manaphies. Oh Lordy.

(This is also not an argument for this current meta but once home releases, Manaphy will have access to HP Electric, so even Mantine won’t be safe.)

Tl;dr: Ban this blue bastard.

I agree that Latios is not the primary source of the rot in the metagame; Manaphy is. Manaphy nearly invalidates bulkier structures, even those with Unaware Clefable as it can Skill Swap. I think teams that run Scizor aren't suddenly going to stop running Scizor if Latios got banned, but the fact that Blissey has to run Calm Mind just to deal with Manaphy is pretty absurd.

 

[adem]

Just a heads up that Skill Swap doesn't work on Shedinja, Wonder Guard is one of the few abilities immune to the move. It cannot be copied or taken outside of being Traced. Had a few folks try it on me when I was running a Shedinja team during the Lati suspect.

That bit of corrected information aside, I agree that Shedinja is not a "good" overall answer for Manaphy. It does full on wall it (unless you're that 1 madman who'd run Shadow Ball over all its better options), but is very easy to play around given Manaphy's common partners of Rough Skin Chomp, Flame Body Tran, hazard setting phasers like Skarm or Emp, or occasional weather setter that instantly disposes of it. I definitely have strong opinions on the blue blob and will write them out once the suspect thread opens and commences, and (spoilers) hope to see it leave the tier after it runs its course. The fact we're having to resort to gimmicks like Shedinja as one of the top answers to handle this monstrosity is a testament that speaks for itself.

I agree that Latios is not the primary source of the rot in the metagame; Manaphy is. Manaphy nearly invalidates bulkier structures, even those with Unaware Clefable as it can Skill Swap. I think teams that run Scizor aren't suddenly going to stop running Scizor if Latios got banned, but the fact that Blissey has to run Calm Mind just to deal with Manaphy is pretty absurd.

ok manaphy beats stall / fat it has been doing this fr 3 generations already so cool can u find smtg new about it please. The fact that this gen stall can actually fit consistent cplay to mana (multiple forms of hazard control + shed, mixdef unaclef + bliss, cm bliss + physdef unaclef, haze mantine + bliss etc etc) means its worse than it has been. even if mana is banned, fat and balance will still be a middlimb playstyle because there are 20 more breakers in the tier. and no, you arent forced to have defensive answers to mana, because thats manas whole shtick, it doesnt have a lot of defensive answers, bar the aformentioned ones. thats why bo‘s and offenses and HOs dont have much issues with it. also, shed does completely counter mana if you dont play because the stalls shed fits on usually has double / triple forms of hazard control. complaining that defensive teams cant deal with mana is a terrible argument because mana has been doinh this since its existence.

e: skill swap mana only cucks teams with unaclef as their sole mana cplay (which shouldnt be w thing because balance and fat are bad, and if u r using it on anything more offensive than that then its just bad building lol)

 

[donttrustlando]

Honestly I don't know how to feel about Latios staying. I haven't personally had a lot of trouble with it, but it's definitely an S tier threat in this metagame. CM sets seem really scary on paper, but in practice I haven't had a lot of trouble dealing with them, and I think choice sets are pretty easy to deal with as long as you have a bulky steel or clefable/blissey. Not to mention how succeptible non-recover sets are to priority. People keep emphasizing how Latios is supposedly limiting to teambuilding, but imho even if Lati and Manaphy were gone pokemon like Spdef scizor, Blissey, and spdef clef would still be super common just due to the lack of decent special tanks in this metagame. I definitely understand arguments from both sides, and IMO if it regains access to Mystical Fire and Trick when Home comes out it'll probably be worth re-suspecting, but right now I don't feel too strongly about it.

That being said I think Manaphy needs to go. Imo it's WAY harder to deal with due to its bulk, great typing, and resistance to some of the more common priority in Ice Shard/Bullet Punch. 100 base speed is pretty damn fast in this meta, and there are basically only two pokemon (Specs Raikou, Scarf rotom-mow) that can actually outspeed it and OHKO it. Neither of these pokemon are even particularly viable, leaving Clefable as the only real Manaphy counter in the entire meta. I guess technically speaking some sun sweepers like Venusaur/Victreebel also obliterate Manaphy, but these are also super niche picks. There's maybe something to be said for sash counterplay with mons like Breloom or Alakazam, but even then they require something else to chip Manaphy so they can reliably 2hko. Any other defensive counters like Shedinja, Vaporeon aren't really worth mentioning due to how generally bad they are vs the rest of the metagame. There are very very few matchups in which Manaphy doesn't get at least one kill, and if it stays healthy into the late game it's probably the most reliable win con in the entire tier. I want it gone!!!

 

[H momento]

That being said I think Manaphy needs to go. Imo it's WAY harder to deal with due to its bulk, great typing, and resistance to some of the more common priority in Ice Shard/Bullet Punch. 100 base speed is pretty damn fast in this meta, and there are basically only two pokemon (Specs Raikou, Scarf rotom-mow) that can actually outspeed it and OHKO it. Neither of these pokemon are even particularly viable, leaving Clefable as the only real Manaphy counter in the entire meta. I guess technically speaking some sun sweepers like Venusaur/Victreebel also obliterate Manaphy, but these are also super niche picks. There's maybe something to be said for sash counterplay with mons like Breloom or Alakazam, but even then they require something else to chip Manaphy so they can reliably 2hko. Any other defensive counters like Shedinja, Vaporeon aren't really worth mentioning due to how generally bad they are vs the rest of the metagame. There are very very few matchups in which Manaphy doesn't get at least one kill, and if it stays healthy into the late game it's probably the most reliable win con in the entire tier. I want it gone!!!

It's impossible for a Manaphy to stay healthy, the true counterplay is outspeeding it and chipping it until it dies, this is done with Choice scarfers and/or a fast strong attacker like the unfortunately-still-here Latios
It's true that Manaphy is very good at forcing a KO, the nature of the metagame allows this because it's very offense-centered though, defensive counterplay, however, exists too: Calm mind Blissey, Unaware clefable, Water asborb Mantine, so on and so forth
Sure it's resistant to Bullet punch and Ice shard, but it also takes spikes damage and is forced to take a hit while tail glowing generally due to 100 special attack not being threatening enough unboosted
While I agree that Manaphy is unhealthy I do not agree that it's unhealthier than Latios, And a Latios ban would've made it truly cross the line since Latios is one of our best offensive checks to it

 

[Finchinator]

Latios has this really awkward stronghold on the metagame where, despite being a very offensive Pokemon, it makes the tier far more reactionary and, as an extension of that, defensive. Stall teams contain Latios easily with a couple of pink blobs and I know of a large handful of people that cruised through the suspect ladder because of this.

The thing is that the reason why these teams have grown so common and virtually every other team is Scizor balance/BO is because of Latios. Perhaps you have not struggled with it in practice due to conforming to these norms, but the lengths we had to go to check it alone are a testament to how restrictive Latios is. That’s why I voted ban and that’s why I worry about where we are headed.

I don’t think Manaphy needs to go in part because it has far more consistent counterplay than Latios, which we just allowed, on both the offensive and defensive end. However, another thing is that we are just looking to suspect for the sake of suspecting or banning for the sake of banning as per the logic in these posts. Perhaps letting things settle after a hectic start and prompt suspect can lead us to a healthier conclusion, especially if the current conclusion involves wasting a page of posts on Haunter of all things.

 

[Lalaya]

Latios has this really awkward stronghold on the metagame where, despite being a very offensive Pokemon, it makes the tier far more reactionary and, as an extension of that, defensive. Stall teams contain Latios easily with a couple of pink blobs and I know of a large handful of people that cruised through the suspect ladder because of this.

The thing is that the reason why these teams have grown so common and virtually every other team is Scizor balance/BO is because of Latios. Perhaps you have not struggled with it in practice due to conforming to these norms, but the lengths we had to go to check it alone are a testament to how restrictive Latios is. That’s why I voted ban and that’s why I worry about where we are headed.

I don’t think Manaphy needs to go in part because it has far more consistent counterplay than Latios, which we just allowed, on both the offensive and defensive end. However, another thing is that we are just looking to suspect for the sake of suspecting or banning for the sake of banning as per the logic in these posts. Perhaps letting things settle after a hectic start and prompt suspect can lead us to a healthier conclusion, especially if the current conclusion involves wasting a page of posts on Haunter of all things.

I was agreeing to this until the last part but to be fair I'm also agreeing through half of it
The meta is in a very hectic state, and that's true, but honestly I just think we're at the point we need to shoot down someone or we won't get out of the current mess the tier is in, imo
and our options got limited since we can't axe Tios anymore, and we still have incredibly strong threats like Manaphy (which is, in my opinion, banworthy just of the amount of pressure it forces your team every time it clicks the funny +3 move), Alakazam, Gengar and probably others
but ye, I just feel we're going nowhere for now and if Mana stays we'll have a month of good nothing except people going in circle about how this meta is just blatantly offense-driven, to a point you have to fight extremes with extremes-

edit: can we drop a pair of Men in Black real quick to make the forum forget about the Haunter accident ty