this is great news - thank you to the council
With Manaphy's suspect test concluding in its ban, the BDSP OU Council has concluded their vote on Gengar, and we have unanimously agreed to hold a suspect test for Gengar! We won't keep you waiting too long- expect the action to commence in a day or two. Thanks for all your great posts on the matter!
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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
Sorry for nitpicking but this is not really a relevant argument ; the consistency of a pokemon is not always correlated with its brokeness, and Gengar is a good example of that. Sure, Focus Blast is far from being reliable, but the point of Gengar being potentially broken is the lack of reliable counterplay to it, and since you cannot rely on Gengar missing, Focus Blast poor accuracy does not make it less broken.
Most generally, arguing that a Pokemon is not broken in any given metagame because of its susceptibility to be RNG'd is misleading.
I am indifferent on the gengar suspect test as a whole (if it was a quickban I would be annoyed) but I quite frankly don't like the fact that there is an emphasis on making "balance" more viable. It could just be me but seeing the changes of DPP from the very beginning the tiers current DPP is a lot more balance orientated and a significant amount of the metagame boils down to Rachi/Clef T-Wave hax because as games become slower just having hax win you a match up becomes a lot more viable and with balance a single miss still often screws the entire game.
I'm not asking for DPP LC levels of offense but after 3 generations of balance I don't see the need to blatantly push it so much.
I'm not asking for DPP LC levels of offense but after 3 generations of balance I don't see the need to blatantly push it so much.
i think this is the suspect test im actually going to take seriously + actually get reqs
Tbh if you think balance is too dominant in smogon in general its bcoz of the tiering policy. What do you expect to happen when the tier bans all that cannot be walled? Balance rises :D So if its a problem about balance, the argument is really against the policy as a whole.
That being said i dislike balance dominant metas too, i dont find it super fun going in long battles and win by outmaneuvering/outlucking opponent, i much prefer metas where teambuilding and short decisions are emphasized.
Let's start with the losers of this:
Good news is that it's pretty much low tier mons that were seeing usage large in part due to Manaphy, which is a sign that the decision was admitedly overall - a healthy one. Shedinja will persist and still maintain a place in the tier, but being a lot less critical for stall - which is good. Sticky Webs offense losses their arguably most defining component, and while there are still plenty of options available they definitely will miss Manaphy's reliability and potency. Same goes for dual screens H.O. Mantine is definitely the biggest loser of this change and it's usage/viability will greatly reduce - if not fall out entirely; Manaphy was almost the sole reason this thing was being used for. Funnily enough, the Stall playstyle is actually a big loser in the departure of Manaphy. That may sound insane, but as folks have talked about at some length over the fast few weeks in this thread: one of the biggest reasons for stall's recent prominence and dominance has been it's ability to handle threats like Manaphy. I bring this up because of the unforunate common, uneducated arguement that "smogon bans anything that beats stall" really isn't true. This is not directed at anyone that's been posting here, but for the potential possible person who decided to view this thread trying to figure out why Manaphy was banned: I encourage you to go through the past couple of weeks to read through what folks have been saying, it might change your perception.
Now for the winners:
Clef is finally freed from being pigeonholed into it's sp.def unaware set now that Mana is removed from the equation. It still has reasons to be ran, but not as mandatory and can be transitioned comfortably now into phys. def varriants to better hold off sweepers like Chomp, dnite, weavile, and even certain varriants of Scizor. It'll also be nice to hopefully start seeing Magic Guard coming back (knock on wood, though watch me eat my words later as I get sick of seeing clef everywhere after a few months). Blissey also having one less special attacker that can break it to worry about is nice, though unfortunately it's need for running CM is still forced upon it by Gengar (can't wait for the suspect, get this thing outta here). Defensive waters like Empoleon, the slow twins, Tentacruel, Quag and Gastro notably become more consistent walls that don't have to worry about letting Mana in for free and using them to boost up. Rotom's scarf sets remain potent but are less vital, which is nice. We might also some lower tier mons find new life in tier's viability with Mana gone, time will tell. Overall there were a lot more big winners than there were losers.
This also arguably helps balance teams, but... where are they still? Let's talk about that.
Balance:
The big "mission" of the recent tiering action has been, generally, trying to bring back balance into relevance as a playstyle. Will the Manaphy ban bring balance back? By itself: no. It's nice that defense can breath a little easier and diversify a bit more with their sets and viable options, but we still haven't fixed several key components that have held the playstyle. Blissey's almost mandatory presence for protection from arguably the most dangerous mon in the tier - Gengar - still has the style pinned down hard. Until it's removed, I don't foresee balance resurfacing to relevancy.
I'll also bring up Latios's impact for a sec. Manaphy leaving the tier doesn't change a thing about it (I guess 1 less reliable partner that was often paired with to overload their shared special wall checks) and the Scizor infestation continues. Though I wouldn't say this is personally affecting the nature of balance directly, at least far less than Gengar is. Ios is fantastic against offense, on par with gar, but against common defensive pivots, walls, and hard stall it struggles - these types of teams really doesn't care about ios. There's a lot more that reliably defensively checks it, which is not the case for gar: Plot gar destroys offense and stall alike. For the moment Ios is "fine", but my opinion has gone from firmly DNB from it's previous suspect to mixed. Once Gar is removed from the tier and we hopefully see the meta stablize, assessing the blue dragon's influence on the meta will be much easier and we can come to a more concrete conclusion. Also Zam to a lesser extent.
I'm not thrilled by the removal of Manaphy, I don't think it was the right decision for the right time, but I can respect it. The impact knocks H.O down a peg, and stall to some extent. It frees up defense a bit to run a slighly wider variety of options which is generally good too. But it's not gonna bring about the rapid or major meta change a lot of folks want, for that we're gonna need Gar out of the tier. I eagerly await the date for the spooky ghost's suspect to commence so we can start making some real progress.
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Lalaya
Banned deucer.
I honestly wasn't even expecting Manaphy to leave at this point, but I'm still grateful we got rid of it now than later making us wait another two weeks if it ever rose to be a problem later on, which it definitely would have in a tier without Latios and Gengar (imo the two possible banworthy mons left, not sure about Alakazam still)
That being said, I and other users have expressed the point enough that everyone should just know it at this point, but Gengar is really a busted force that should leave the tier, more than anything else banned so far (hey, at least Blaziken kills itself by recoil damage!); there's literally no actual counterplay other than "outoffensing it", which it should automatically pinpoint where the problem lies with it and with how unhealthy it is to the tier since it has no actual switchin until you guess the set (which could be multiple, since there's Specs, Scarf, Hex, Plot, Sub, Wisp and various combinations of the non choiced ones, there's even Bulky Gengar specifically made to tank Shadow Ball Blissey...), and even then you have to guess the move the Gengar is throwing at you, otherwise you lose a Pokémon for a CHANCE to kill it back (daily reminder switches exist, fortunately for the other Pokémon), and gaining advantage this freely is genuinely against any resemblance of "good presence" the ghost might have in the tier. No, being reliant on prediction isn't a good anti-ban argument unless the Pokémon can only work with it, and it's definitely not the case with Gengar since unless you have a Tyranitar in the back there's literally no drawback into firing Shadow Balls repeatedly, since Ghost resists are very few and far in between, not to mention the few that tank one +2 Shadow Ball are either straight up too niche that you would give in important slots in your team or are just very difficult to field and justify (SpDef Hippo), only playable in stall (SpDef Gastro), or die with other moves (Tyranitar, Drapion and so on), and being able to out offense a Gengar isn't either because it's a 50-50 argument, going both ways (like, just predict the Cinderace/Dracovish/Kyurem/*insert other stupid threat, easy, no?). There's genuinely no bigger threat to the tier than Gengar right now, and just because it was OU (or worse) until now doesn't justify the fact that the ghost is a menace *right now*, other than the fact that Gengar never found itself in a restricted meta with Nasty Plot and no Pursuit and no Steel resistance to fight against all together. I genuinely don't want to explain how building 30 HO/Stall (that are also forced to run countermeasures such as Shadow Ball Blissey, the last use of which was for Spectrier in SS) because the chokehold in the tier is THAT strong to build anything else is a good thing because you should be able to figure out yourselves, even if you like using Gengar
tl;dr ban this ghost so the tier may progress at once
not... really? While Manaphy greatly benefitted from Screens, they're perfectly functioning without them too, since if you want to waterspam there are still Fera, Azu and Cloyster, all great threats in their own right (and while a combination of two of three might not be as solid as one of them + Mana, they're still EXTREMELY competent), while alone I honestly would use a Water with a priority or better speed control than it
I agree Webs and Screens lost a bit, but way less than you seem to believe imo
Also I agree saying Balance won't magically spring up without Mana and/or Gengar, but they would definitely had more breathing room for some formulas that didn't work so far (like, for example Slowbro balance)
I mentioned with the sticky webs bit that the styles weren't dead, just the loss of Manaphy hurts them a notable degree. Didn't feel writing it out a 2nd time for the screens portion because I thought it was sufficient and clear, guess it wasn't :/
To clarify: yes they still function and have suitable alternatives, but will certainly suffer from losing their arguably best asset.
Confused by this bc the alternative is the 23 voting users get no say and the council members alone are able to shape the meta. I was vocal about not wanting a quick ban because I want users like myself and those who voted in the Manaphy suspect who play this game all the time to have the opportunity to contribute and participate in the shaping of this tier.
Perhaps my intentions were not hashed out well enough. I am of the opinion that Gengar may be too strong and deserves a suspect test, but i do not think it's so overwhelming in the current meta that it needs to be quick banned.
I also think more suspect tests means more opportunity for players who take the tier seriously to get reqs and feel like they are participating, something I think undeniably is healthy for the longevity of the BDSP OU tier and augments discussion, theory, and meta development. I have never participated in a Smogon tier as much as this one and I think it's really rewarding to know my voice is counted and contributes to this game I love to play.
Don't confuse wanting my vote and others votes to be heard with voting Do Not Ban Gengar.
This meta is new and developing, I think we will all survive a Gengar suspect and the BDSP OU tier will be stronger after whatever decision is made by voters.
You are very passionate about this tier which is amazing, let other passionate players have a voice and remember to be patient with the suspect test that the council unanimously agreed to hold.
You were completely fine, some people just like sucking up to mods and/or are really impatient. Metagames are in no need of a hurry and most gens evolve even as the gens move on. If people are that impatient they can just wait and do something else the fact that this is a niche metagame means that the playerbase opinions arguably matters more since there is a smaller difference between the experienced and inexperienced. Quite frankly the metagame already has a 7-8 on the enjoyment factor my concern with banning all these balance breakers to someone who hasn't enjoyed any recent gen is that it will become just like them I hope their goal isn't to make BDSP close to those gens.
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the Manaphy vote had both sides of the spectrum present solid points during the suspect thread where I was admittingly unsure where I would vote for a bit but ultimately I do think banning it was the right decision. As for Gengar, I personally am leaning towards ban. Immunity to the best priority move (Espeed), and mach punch limits the amount of priority users that can attempt to take it out via priority. There's also cursed body that sometimes just screws over Scarf users which is a common way to beat non-scarf gengar and cursed body hax forces scarfers to switch out and possibly give a free turn of setup. Also the tier as of rn doesn't really have enough consistent answers where ur best bet to beating it is generally out-offense the mon or running bliss and it basically has a speed tier that's hard to top. Also ditto to what dudebones said abt letting the playerbase have an opportunity to voice their opinions.
Unpopular opinion but, someone had to say it... SLEEP HAS TO GO!!!
Insta ko's are uncompetitive... enough said. But ill deliberate further in hopes of convincing some skeptics.
I don't think sleep is fundamentally broken, it's a fine mechanic on its own but it's place in the meta game is extremely questionable. When sleep essentialy equates to a ko especially in the current offensive meta, having at least one sleep immune on the team is required less you like your teams crippled. In most other meta games it's been part of, the counter play options and sleep immune pokemon are bountiful and splashable ie Ferrowthorn, Amoongus, Serp, Kart, Rilla etc...while is bdsp the options are... Roserade, a uu mon that needs teams specifically built around it to be effective, Tangrowth the slow Def wall and Breloom which gets easily punished by either a faster mirror or Sludge Bomb. I'd argue this constrains teambuilding similarly to how Gengar and Alakazam do, all but requiring you to run a less-than-optimal dedicated check in every team.
That said, the biggest issue with sleep currently isn't it's devastating potential or even it's roulette like mechanic, instead it is it's number one abuser:
Breloom runs many different, all equally viable sets, each requiring different forms of counterplay. The problem arises when the already limited number of answers to it's multiple potential sets are further limited by the presence of sleep. Suddenly Latios isn't an answer unless it likes it's odds with sleep talk and Unaware Clef is having to sack one of its teamates to sleep just so it can properly deal with SD variants. Alot of talk is going around about what is causing the current state of Balance, and the fingers are being pointed (correctly) at Gengar and Zam but I'd argue Sleep has an equally devastating effect on team building and should be looked at. And I don't think it would make Breloom any less viable, if anything it would open up more options.
Insta ko's are uncompetitive... enough said. But ill deliberate further in hopes of convincing some skeptics.
I don't think sleep is fundamentally broken, it's a fine mechanic on its own but it's place in the meta game is extremely questionable. When sleep essentialy equates to a ko especially in the current offensive meta, having at least one sleep immune on the team is required less you like your teams crippled. In most other meta games it's been part of, the counter play options and sleep immune pokemon are bountiful and splashable ie Ferrowthorn, Amoongus, Serp, Kart, Rilla etc...while is bdsp the options are... Roserade, a uu mon that needs teams specifically built around it to be effective, Tangrowth the slow Def wall and Breloom which gets easily punished by either a faster mirror or Sludge Bomb. I'd argue this constrains teambuilding similarly to how Gengar and Alakazam do, all but requiring you to run a less-than-optimal dedicated check in every team.
That said, the biggest issue with sleep currently isn't it's devastating potential or even it's roulette like mechanic, instead it is it's number one abuser:
Breloom runs many different, all equally viable sets, each requiring different forms of counterplay. The problem arises when the already limited number of answers to it's multiple potential sets are further limited by the presence of sleep. Suddenly Latios isn't an answer unless it likes it's odds with sleep talk and Unaware Clef is having to sack one of its teamates to sleep just so it can properly deal with SD variants. Alot of talk is going around about what is causing the current state of Balance, and the fingers are being pointed (correctly) at Gengar and Zam but I'd argue Sleep has an equally devastating effect on team building and should be looked at. And I don't think it would make Breloom any less viable, if anything it would open up more options.
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Well, the breloom are not that broken to be fair.
Despite the sleep on spore is annoying, it doesn't mean that it is the end of the world.
There are many offensive and defensive checks on breloom in this OU meta that doesn't care about its mach punch.
For example:
Togekiss: Air blade is really a big threat to Breloom, and it resists both of Breloom's stab, pairing with roost which makes togekiss a good reliable check for breloom
Gengar: The typing that let you immune to Breloom's mach punch and resisting Bullet Seed let you switch in at least once against it despite the spore
The high speed stats and sludge bomb which highly ko non sash variant and non subsitute variant makes gengar a good offensive check to Breloom
I have much more check to say but i am too lazy to say it
Overall, I agree that Spore is really annoying, but u can make some good counterplays with it
Also Sleep Clause is a thing
And Breloom is such a big threat in meta that u need at least 1 wall against it
This is my 1st time writing a paragraph here so please mark my mistake if i have a mistake in the paragraph (Both in vocabulary and the pokemon knowledge)
Absolutely agree, completely broken mechanic from the start and sleep clause is just a terrible legacy. If you cant make sleep have a static amount of turns, every counterplay vs it apart from being immune to sleep is unviable. I'd like to quote R8 's claim: "Most generally, arguing that a Pokemon is not broken in any given metagame because of its susceptibility to be RNG'd is misleading." Sleep is the exact same. In Breloom's case, it pretty much restricts the counterplay to tangrowth, roserade and vileplume. Given some lucky rolls on sleep, this is much more restrictive than manaphy and even gengar (w/o hypnosis). And this is without mention that your pokemon that got put to sleep still has to take part in the other potential counterplays while getting put asleep for at most 3 turns. The fact that sleep can roll their luck on a 3 turn sleep is just insane and it should've never existed in competitive play.
Some may claim that breloom has offensive checks. Sure, so does Manaphy, Gengar and even Blaziken, but as long as you have 1 pokemon that gives a chance for breloom to switch in, it can start to become nasty.
But imagine the fate of webs after gengar ban :(
Im not a big fan of sleep either but baning the mechanic is the wrong path, specially when your argument only apply to one user, if forms of sleep exists but is only uncompetitive/broken/unhealty/whateverwedecidetocallit in one user then is more likely the solution should be banning the abuser, as there is no problem with any of the sleep powder mons, and every other spore user is either unviable (parasect) or too niche (smeargle).
It would be like banning speed boost instead of Blaziken despite it being fine in Sharpedo and Ninjask.
But regardless, i dont think there is need to ban Breloom anyway, outside of tang and rose there is also Gliscor as another viable way to handle it, and Breloom is slow and frail so it has problems putting something to sleep without sash so it require skill beyond just clicking the move. Now im not against the idea of a suspect either but maybe after Latios 2, as if we remove both Gengar and Latios then a lot of teams may become weaker to breloom as we would have less offensive checks for it, but is better to wait and see if it is actually necessary.
Lalaya
Banned deucer.
fyi we have a thread on sleep clause discussions in Policy Review if anyone's interested since I fear it will soon deevolve into that
Sleep is definitely a RNG mechanic, but I think Breloom is the only real abuser of it (Gengar can probably evolve into being a Hypnosis user but that's the definition of being inconstant, and the other Sleep Powder abusers are not as good as Loom or they don't care as much about sleeping a target at all), and even if Loom is a top threat right now, it's not just because of Spore imo
That being said, Loom definitely gets helped by it, but there's still counterplay off of it (outside of not being able to risk the 1turn sleep most times) and most top tier Pokémon can deal with it regardless, especially considering Gliscor as a sleep absorber, but I agree on the fact that is a RNG mechanic and should at least be treated as such
Also could hurt Loom's Poison Heal sets since they actually rely on getting a free Sub
(fyi Gengar is not an answer since Bullet Seed hurts, and any Pokémon mentioned could be an answer if you have a Pokémon sleeping already, although I agree Togekiss gets the crown there, alongside possibly Sleep Talk or Roost Latios)
edit: if you want to post in Policy Review follow this link!
Sleep is definitely a RNG mechanic, but I think Breloom is the only real abuser of it (Gengar can probably evolve into being a Hypnosis user but that's the definition of being inconstant, and the other Sleep Powder abusers are not as good as Loom or they don't care as much about sleeping a target at all), and even if Loom is a top threat right now, it's not just because of Spore imo
That being said, Loom definitely gets helped by it, but there's still counterplay off of it (outside of not being able to risk the 1turn sleep most times) and most top tier Pokémon can deal with it regardless, especially considering Gliscor as a sleep absorber, but I agree on the fact that is a RNG mechanic and should at least be treated as such
Also could hurt Loom's Poison Heal sets since they actually rely on getting a free Sub
(fyi Gengar is not an answer since Bullet Seed hurts, and any Pokémon mentioned could be an answer if you have a Pokémon sleeping already, although I agree Togekiss gets the crown there, alongside possibly Sleep Talk or Roost Latios)
edit: if you want to post in Policy Review follow this link!
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Got my previous post deleted bcoz i was saying something bout policy review, but back to my other point: Gengar's hypnosis being inconsistent isn't in nature different to how Focus Blast is inconsistent, only that it requires even more luck. I still hold my opinion on the fact that any rng'd progress towards victory that cannot be countered is still uncounterable, and hence need to be dealt with.
On the other side though, I don't mind both breloom and gengar (and perhaps venomoth too) be banned for the purpose (they are both extremely oppressive if their sleep lands for the right amount of turns), that would be another way to ensure that no sleep users would be busted. I do, however, still think that leaving the meta with no sleep move is better and healthier for the long run
oh dont mind me im just gonna list some ways i get around sleep
- uhh let someone goto sleep to activate sleep clause and then switchout so one of my mons takeover 50% to focus punch
- and thats rlly it cuz sleep is kinda broke or i run tangrowth idk idk idk
Anyways, i do agree that sleep is kinda broke but i feel like it's brelooms only real niche in the meta.
Breloom is pretty good alongside setup breakers, sporing them and switching out into the setup Pokémon, or setting up a substitute for focus punch (which btw is like WAY TOO EASY for breloom to pull off most of the time) it can even put scarf to use by getting only about 396 speed iirc and getting a free spore and suprising the opponent quite easily.
I've seen a breloom set that ran sludge bomb in order to counter tangrowth on the switch,
120 SpA Breloom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 SpA Life Orb Breloom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and tangrowth can sludge bomb back yes but breloom is probably already under a sub or tangrowth is already in the 2hko range and needs to switch out.
I imagine if you took away brelooms spore, It would change how it would work significantly, between team cores and general viability. With spore it fits on so many teams that have setup sweepers, And the fact that breloom is a pretty good counter to water spams, and like previously mentioned, sleep has quite the effect on teambuilding.
What am i trying to say here? it's just that i feel like sleep is kinda broke but it also is what makes breloom, breloom as if spore is gone, im failing to see any other viable option for breloom as its quite slow and frail. What do you think would happen if spore was banned for breloom?
- uhh let someone goto sleep to activate sleep clause and then switchout so one of my mons takeover 50% to focus punch
- and thats rlly it cuz sleep is kinda broke or i run tangrowth idk idk idk
Anyways, i do agree that sleep is kinda broke but i feel like it's brelooms only real niche in the meta.
Breloom is pretty good alongside setup breakers, sporing them and switching out into the setup Pokémon, or setting up a substitute for focus punch (which btw is like WAY TOO EASY for breloom to pull off most of the time) it can even put scarf to use by getting only about 396 speed iirc and getting a free spore and suprising the opponent quite easily.
I've seen a breloom set that ran sludge bomb in order to counter tangrowth on the switch,
120 SpA Breloom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 SpA Life Orb Breloom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and tangrowth can sludge bomb back yes but breloom is probably already under a sub or tangrowth is already in the 2hko range and needs to switch out.
I imagine if you took away brelooms spore, It would change how it would work significantly, between team cores and general viability. With spore it fits on so many teams that have setup sweepers, And the fact that breloom is a pretty good counter to water spams, and like previously mentioned, sleep has quite the effect on teambuilding.
What am i trying to say here? it's just that i feel like sleep is kinda broke but it also is what makes breloom, breloom as if spore is gone, im failing to see any other viable option for breloom as its quite slow and frail. What do you think would happen if spore was banned for breloom?
The main sets would definitely be scarfed Technician or Sub Poison Heal. These sets already have strong niche roles outside of spore usage due to Breloom's unique typing in this metagame, and decent coverage. These sets certainly wouldn't be as threatening as a Spore, but Rock Tomb on the switch neuters a lot of setup opportunists and can ruin sweep opportunities. Sub Focus Punch still deals big damage, and now it would run seed bomb instead.
basically its secondary roles would come into the forefront as it found itself on less teams, because it would be a big hit to viability
I see your point, but i feel like if breloom couldn't run spore anymore, it might as well find viability in uu where it properly can pull of these sets better, as the uu's speed tier would be kinder to breloom and it has the ability to break pass bulky waters like slowbro and milotic, i sadly fail to see sporeless breloom work in ou.
Scarf technician would be an excellent way to break past pokemon in ou don't get me wrong but the subpunch poison heal set would most definitely struggle the most, Breloom doesn't have the best speed tier and bulk, If it successfully pulls off a sub, they could switch into a physically defense pokemon, maybe like latias or something that resists it in order to take it and break pass breloom if it chooses to stay in.
Breloom would keep its ability to break pass waters but all in all, it would indeed be a big hit to it's viability and can find itself on less and less teams, and i imagine it could maybe even drop to uu??
This has become very derailed- this thread is for discussion about the current metagame, not how Breloom would do in a prospective post-sleep ban OU metagame and how it could work in a similar UU. Discussion about Sleep in the current format is fine, but please drop this tangent
Gengar gets 2hko'd by Bullet Seed and Togekiss can be dealt with by either Rock Tomb or Toxic. And let's say you need your togekiss for another matchup, suddenly it's out of commission and the other mon it was supposed to be checking is sweeping you, again, you're forced into sacking a mon to sleep.
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Togekiss: 168-198 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gliscor is not a sleep absorber, as long as you've activated Poison Heal you can try predicting around choiced sets... sure, but the moment Breloom clicks a grass move your getting 3hk'od on even phys Def sets and the only way to ko back is to run acro. Acrobatics Gliscor is not what I'd call a healthy answer to sleep. So the point remains, the limited answers to Breloom are being further limited because of 1 broken mechanic. Breloom should not be winning 1v1s against Togekiss, Latios, or Gengar but it can because of 1 broken mechanic.
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Gliscor: 138-165 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 153-180 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 120-144 (39.8 - 47.8%) -- approx. 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Togekiss: 168-198 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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Aye I'm very glad that you actually hear the community thoughts and commited to a suspect rather than a qb. I completely understand the rush on this pokemon and that waiting 2 weeks will prolongue the outcome but on the other hand making a balance between metagame needs and community standpoints its a great way of addressing tiering action. So props to the council here n.n
With Manaphy's suspect test concluding in its ban, the BDSP OU Council has concluded their vote on Gengar, and we have unanimously agreed to hold a suspect test for Gengar! We won't keep you waiting too long- expect the action to commence in a day or two. Thanks for all your great posts on the matter!
Regarding the suspect itself, I don't know if someone has proposed this already but seeing the lack of voters between the Manaphy and Latios suspect I'd like to ask for lowering the GXE needed for reqs in this next suspect. Idk if back to 78 but at least 79% would be ok. This because I think a major quantity of voters will reflect better the actual thoughts and GXE is very punishing on this ladder. (This is totally not because my run got killed at the end by the worse trail of bad luck like missing 4 hydros in a row or losing a stall game that I was winning cuz of timer ¬¬). In the end, bdsp still a side metagame even with the amount of popularity it has, so it would be nice for you to consider this c:
Now talking about the mon itself.
If no one has realised yet, with the development of bdsp ou, Gengar has risen as the most menacing threat in the current metagame. Even above the ones already suspect tested (Manaphy and Latios) and other potent issues like Alakazam imo. So if you still wondering why Gengar over Latios? Or why straight after the Manaphy suspect?. Well, simply Gengar has the least amount of consistent counterplay, in fact, unlike Latios which has Scizor or Jirachi for example, Gengar has no consistent counterplay at all. Defensively your best way of dealing with it would be Shadow ball Blissey or some obscure pokemon like spdef Drapion or Skuntank, offensively its def a better way of dealing with it. But the difference between this and Alakazam for example is that Gengar isn't narrowed to one linear set. Zam would most likely run Lo or sash with the same attacks 95% of time. Gengar has a variety of powerful sets including Specs, Scarf,NP Lo/Sash, SubHex and more tools to its arsenal which makes it harder to outplay and scout. So offensively sometimes you just gotta hope they are the set you think they are and play it from there. Also, Focus Blast being an inaccurate move is not an argument for not banning it, as a player you have to play around said move will land unless there's no other play than hoping for a miss, if thats not unhealthy then idk what it is. Imo, this reasoning is enough to give an idea of why there was such a rush on quickbanning this pokemon. And even tho this isnt the Gengar thread which hasnt been created yet. I'd probably vote ban on Gengar for the reasons aforementioned.
Thx for reading ^^
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Oh yeah my bad i forgot the menacing rock tomb
yeah i really agree that the breloom is a very menacing threat to meta, has many sets and you need different counterplay for each set