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Metagame BDSP PU (Tier shifts @ Post #79)
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
double post ik but i'm here with a viability list for PU just before alpha ends, it seems like some people are trying to get into this tier and they're just not too sure about what things do so I'm here to help out with that. It will be very similar to the one I did for BDSP RU
Altaria (no dd or defog kek but specs is a strong breaker and even non specs with dragon/fire coverage hits the whole tier)
Ampharos (i don't see much of a reason to run this over any other electric other than like dual screens but fan rotom is better)
Arbok (Arbok is honestly kinda underrated. Coil with poison/ground coverage hits pretty hard and the speed tier isn't that bad)
Ariados (ladder is enjoying this fsr but it's just bad. Better webbers)
Armaldo (bulky hazard removal with good mixed bulk. Gets the job done well)
Banette (spinblocker and decent mixed attacker with tbolt)
Beedrill (mon doesn't exist but tspikes niche ig)
Butterfree (sleep qd sounds nice on paper but that x4 rocks weakness)
Camerupt (this thing is good when Raichu eventually gets the boot)
Charizard (versatile with DD sub BD Specs but held back by rocks)
Combusken (speed boost sd can be a late game wincon)
Corsola (regen + bulky rocker)
Dugtrio (I thought this mon would suck but being the fastest viable mon has its perks when edgequake is good)
Flareon (bulky spdef with wish. Guts is bad)
Floatzel (fast water that can go either physical or special. Special slightly better)
Gabite (good scarfer, band is scary since its STABs are hard to switch into)
Girafarig (grumpig better but this is faster lol)
Glaceon (the scariest special attacker in the tier with specs. People are experimenting with bulkier sets too with Wish)
Glalie (spikes go brr)
Golem (good suicide lead with Custap Sturdy)
Grumpig (best psychic imo nice glace check and has Nasty Plot)
Huntail (shell smash)
Jumpluff (sleep + sd or subseed work)
Kadabra (don't think this mon is just stuck to sash. LO hits offence incredibly hard especially after a charge beam boost)
Kecleon (protean double priority)
Leafeon (SD)
Lumineon (bulky defogger with pivoting)
Luxray (Flame Orb Guts)
Machoke (flame orb guts)
Manectric (LO, Specs, Scarf)
Marowak (Trick room attacker)
Mawile (spdef is a decent glace check and is the best answer for Sneasel. Rocker too)
Meganium (electric check + SD sets + screens)
Misdreavus (nasty plot + spinblocker)
Monferno (one of the best scarfers. SD and NP are solid wincons)
Mothim (QD works but Band is surprisingly good thanks to Tinted Lens)
Muk (curse muk is good)
Ninetales (Nasty Plot)
Pelipper (bulky defogger with recovery and pivoting)
Pidgeot (offensive Pidgeot isn't that bad)
Pinsir (scarf revenge killer or SD)
Porygon2 (specs download is good, can set up trick room too)
Probopass (bulky rocker with pivoting. Best Glaceon check)
Purugly (fake out + good speed tier + pivoting)
Raichu (this mon is probably getting banned)
Rampardos (Rampardos makes webs a menace to face up against)
Rapidash (Lost Wild Charge but SD is fine if there's no bulky water)
Regigigas (some bulky set is getting traction)
Relicanth (competition as a rocker from Golem but it's faster and Rock Polish is more threatening on this)
Roselia (spikes + electric check)
Rotom-Fan (scarf trick or screens. Nasty Plot can work too)
Shuckle (you know what Shuckle does)
Smeargle (hazards + I'm saying belly drum LMAO)
Sneasel (amazing speed tier with band or SD)
Stantler (normal wallbreaker with good coverage)
Staryu (spin + boltbeam combination with Analytic make this mon hard to switch into)
Tangela (bulky physically defensive with regen)
Victreebel (probably the most forgotten PU mon but LO special attacker hits hard)
Whiscash (raichu's best check + DD is a solid wincon)
Wormadam-Trash (glaceon check rocker but its a momentum sink)
Altaria (no dd or defog kek but specs is a strong breaker and even non specs with dragon/fire coverage hits the whole tier) Ampharos (i don't see much of a reason to run this over any other electric other than like dual screens but fan rotom is better) Arbok (Arbok is honestly kinda underrated. Coil with poison/ground coverage hits pretty hard and the speed tier isn't that bad) Ariados (ladder is enjoying this fsr but it's just bad. Better webbers) Armaldo (bulky hazard removal with good mixed bulk. Gets the job done well) Banette (spinblocker and decent mixed attacker with tbolt) Beedrill (mon doesn't exist but tspikes niche ig) Butterfree (sleep qd sounds nice on paper but that x4 rocks weakness) Camerupt (this thing is good when Raichu eventually gets the boot) Charizard (versatile with DD sub BD Specs but held back by rocks) Combusken (speed boost sd can be a late game wincon) Corsola (regen + bulky rocker) Dugtrio (I thought this mon would suck but being the fastest viable mon has its perks when edgequake is good) Flareon (bulky spdef with wish. Guts is bad) Floatzel (fast water that can go either physical or special. Special slightly better) Gabite (good scarfer, band is scary since its STABs are hard to switch into) Girafarig (grumpig better but this is faster lol) Glaceon (the scariest special attacker in the tier with specs. People are experimenting with bulkier sets too with Wish) Glalie (spikes go brr) Golem (good suicide lead with Custap Sturdy) Grumpig (best psychic imo nice glace check and has Nasty Plot) Huntail (shell smash) Jumpluff (sleep + sd or subseed work) Kadabra (don't think this mon is just stuck to sash. LO hits offence incredibly hard especially after a charge beam boost) Kecleon (protean double priority) Leafeon (SD) Lumineon (bulky defogger with pivoting) Luxray (Flame Orb Guts) Machoke (flame orb guts) Manectric (LO, Specs, Scarf) Marowak (Trick room attacker) Mawile (spdef is a decent glace check and is the best answer for Sneasel. Rocker too) Meganium (electric check + SD sets + screens) Misdreavus (nasty plot + spinblocker) Monferno (one of the best scarfers. SD and NP are solid wincons) Mothim (QD works but Band is surprisingly good thanks to Tinted Lens) Muk (curse muk is good) Ninetales (Nasty Plot) Pelipper (bulky defogger with recovery and pivoting) Pidgeot (offensive Pidgeot isn't that bad) Pinsir (scarf revenge killer or SD) Porygon2 (specs download is good, can set up trick room too) Probopass (bulky rocker with pivoting. Best Glaceon check) Purugly (fake out + good speed tier + pivoting) Raichu (this mon is probably getting banned) Rampardos (Rampardos makes webs a menace to face up against) Rapidash (Lost Wild Charge but SD is fine if there's no bulky water) Regigigas (some bulky set is getting traction) Relicanth (competition as a rocker from Golem but it's faster and Rock Polish is more threatening on this) Roselia (spikes + electric check) Rotom-Fan (scarf trick or screens. Nasty Plot can work too) Shuckle (you know what Shuckle does) Smeargle (hazards + I'm saying belly drum LMAO) Sneasel (amazing speed tier with band or SD) Stantler (normal wallbreaker with good coverage) Staryu (spin + boltbeam combination with Analytic make this mon hard to switch into) Tangela (bulky physically defensive with regen) Victreebel (probably the most forgotten PU mon but LO special attacker hits hard) Whiscash (raichu's best check + DD is a solid wincon) Wormadam-Trash (glaceon check rocker but its a momentum sink)
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Ive got a few suggestions for mons ive been experimenting with :3
Combusken @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Blaze Kick
- Endure
- Reversal
Combusken is one of the only fighting types in the meta, but sadly it's overshadowed in popularity by Monferno thanks to it's access to CC and more immidietely threatning results. Combusken isnt useless however; it has a great stab combination, and one of the best abillities in the game, which means that after a Swords Dance, it can threaten to KO much of the metagame. Endure is a way to get around it's coverage problem, as even resist like Peliper don't swap into a +2 Liechi boosted Reversal. Of course this set is prone to getting revenge killed by priority users like Weavile, but it is good enough to be worth considering in the VR.
+3 252+ Atk Combusken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 241-284 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (nice resist)
Combusken @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Blaze Kick
- Endure
- Reversal
Combusken is one of the only fighting types in the meta, but sadly it's overshadowed in popularity by Monferno thanks to it's access to CC and more immidietely threatning results. Combusken isnt useless however; it has a great stab combination, and one of the best abillities in the game, which means that after a Swords Dance, it can threaten to KO much of the metagame. Endure is a way to get around it's coverage problem, as even resist like Peliper don't swap into a +2 Liechi boosted Reversal. Of course this set is prone to getting revenge killed by priority users like Weavile, but it is good enough to be worth considering in the VR.
+3 252+ Atk Combusken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 241-284 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (nice resist)
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Ok one more suggestion :3
when I did CTRL F and looked up pid and all i saw was Rapidash i realized how fucked this tier is, but here:
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Protect / Defog / Double Edge
- U-turn
- Roost / Defog
Pidgeot is a pretty versitile mon, thanks to it's great speed tier, U-Turn and STAB Brave Bird. It can have many diffrent sets, and has no walls thanks to its acess to Uturn. It can run Choice Band sets to nuke balance teams, bulky protect sets to scout out scarfers like Manectric and Monferno while getting leftovers recovery, and even roost potentially making it a long term threat throughout a game. It can be used well on offensive teams as a fast and threatning defogger, and even run Choice Scarf sets to outspeed everything short of a Scarf Manectric.
when I did CTRL F and looked up pid and all i saw was Rapidash i realized how fucked this tier is, but here:
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Protect / Defog / Double Edge
- U-turn
- Roost / Defog
Pidgeot is a pretty versitile mon, thanks to it's great speed tier, U-Turn and STAB Brave Bird. It can have many diffrent sets, and has no walls thanks to its acess to Uturn. It can run Choice Band sets to nuke balance teams, bulky protect sets to scout out scarfers like Manectric and Monferno while getting leftovers recovery, and even roost potentially making it a long term threat throughout a game. It can be used well on offensive teams as a fast and threatning defogger, and even run Choice Scarf sets to outspeed everything short of a Scarf Manectric.
Lemme rapid-fire a few more >:)
Croconaw @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch
Croconaw is one of the best setup sweepers in the meta, but it's thought to be largely outclassed by Huntail (defo banned soon), but it does offer a lot of good things to the table. It has decent defenses, letting it set up multiple Dragon Dances easily. It prefers runnin jolly in pu, as it lets it outspeed electrics at +1. Mixed variants can also be used effectively thanks to their ease of dealing with natural walls like Leafeon and physdef grasses like Tangela. It pairs extremely well with Jumpluff, as it can check bulky grasses for it, as well as memento or uturn into Croconaw.
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Coverage
Wigglituff is one of the best wishpassers in PU, thanks to it's enormous HP stat giving it some sizeable bulk. It can also act as a stealth rocker on balance teams, as well as potentially being a blocker to raichu with a more specially defensive set. Although very weak, it's Fairy STAB is almost completely unresisted in the tier, allowing it to easily wear down opposing teams with reletively little risk. It can also be a good user of Thunder Wave to support it's team more, and even potentially use coverage moves from it's impressive movepool, like Gyro Ball, Focus Blast, Flamethrower, Grass Knot and Tbolt. Since it's only weaknesses are Steel and Poison, it makes a perfect bulky core with Wiscash and Probopass, as it can pass them huge wishes.
Dusclops @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Impish Nature
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Shadow Sneak / Support / Coverage
Even without Eviolite, Dusclops is quite bulky and sports a lot of valuable supporive options such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Haze, Memento, Destiny Bond etc. These options let it be highly adaptive, and let it easily fit on defensive teams as a natural Monferno check. Thanks to it's reliable bulk and Memento, it can also act as a Trick Room setter.
Hypno @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball / Focus Blast
Hypno is sadly slept on hard by many players, despite it offering a lot of good things. It's one of the bulkiest Psychics in the tier, as well as packs Nasty Plot; letting it act as an offensive Trick Room setter. Sadly, it's outclassed in many niches by Grumpig and Kadabra, but it has a few noteable traits. It has Insomnia, letting it swap into many yawn users in the tier, as well as having it's own sleep inducing move in Hypnosis. Unlike Grumpig and Kadabra however, it has a decent attack stat, letting it be a decent mixed attacker with Drain Punch, Thunder Punch and Fire Punch. Thanks to it's bulk, it can also run a physically defensive set with Calm Mind, potetially ending games as there are no reliable dark types in the tier other than Sneazel, which can't OHKO it even with a banded Throat Chop.
Croconaw @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch
Croconaw is one of the best setup sweepers in the meta, but it's thought to be largely outclassed by Huntail (defo banned soon), but it does offer a lot of good things to the table. It has decent defenses, letting it set up multiple Dragon Dances easily. It prefers runnin jolly in pu, as it lets it outspeed electrics at +1. Mixed variants can also be used effectively thanks to their ease of dealing with natural walls like Leafeon and physdef grasses like Tangela. It pairs extremely well with Jumpluff, as it can check bulky grasses for it, as well as memento or uturn into Croconaw.
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Coverage
Wigglituff is one of the best wishpassers in PU, thanks to it's enormous HP stat giving it some sizeable bulk. It can also act as a stealth rocker on balance teams, as well as potentially being a blocker to raichu with a more specially defensive set. Although very weak, it's Fairy STAB is almost completely unresisted in the tier, allowing it to easily wear down opposing teams with reletively little risk. It can also be a good user of Thunder Wave to support it's team more, and even potentially use coverage moves from it's impressive movepool, like Gyro Ball, Focus Blast, Flamethrower, Grass Knot and Tbolt. Since it's only weaknesses are Steel and Poison, it makes a perfect bulky core with Wiscash and Probopass, as it can pass them huge wishes.
Dusclops @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Impish Nature
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Shadow Sneak / Support / Coverage
Even without Eviolite, Dusclops is quite bulky and sports a lot of valuable supporive options such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Haze, Memento, Destiny Bond etc. These options let it be highly adaptive, and let it easily fit on defensive teams as a natural Monferno check. Thanks to it's reliable bulk and Memento, it can also act as a Trick Room setter.
Hypno @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball / Focus Blast
Hypno is sadly slept on hard by many players, despite it offering a lot of good things. It's one of the bulkiest Psychics in the tier, as well as packs Nasty Plot; letting it act as an offensive Trick Room setter. Sadly, it's outclassed in many niches by Grumpig and Kadabra, but it has a few noteable traits. It has Insomnia, letting it swap into many yawn users in the tier, as well as having it's own sleep inducing move in Hypnosis. Unlike Grumpig and Kadabra however, it has a decent attack stat, letting it be a decent mixed attacker with Drain Punch, Thunder Punch and Fire Punch. Thanks to it's bulk, it can also run a physically defensive set with Calm Mind, potetially ending games as there are no reliable dark types in the tier other than Sneazel, which can't OHKO it even with a banded Throat Chop.
Porygon2 @ Chople Berry
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Tri Attack
I just started playing this tier today, but I noticed this could actually be used as a pretty cool hard counter to a lot of mons. And with Lumineon, Ninetails, and Raichu it procs the special attack boost from the traced abilities, while also leaving them unable to really do much of anything against you with their other moves thanks to it's respectable bulk. In some matchups it's less than optimum but I feel that you don't have to fish to hard to find an immune ability currently. (Chople berry is for Raichu blast)
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Tri Attack
I just started playing this tier today, but I noticed this could actually be used as a pretty cool hard counter to a lot of mons. And with Lumineon, Ninetails, and Raichu it procs the special attack boost from the traced abilities, while also leaving them unable to really do much of anything against you with their other moves thanks to it's respectable bulk. In some matchups it's less than optimum but I feel that you don't have to fish to hard to find an immune ability currently. (Chople berry is for Raichu blast)
BDSP PU TIER LIST
S+
HUNTAIL - Shell Smash sweeper. Physical/Mixed
RAICHU - Specs wallbreaker, Nasty Plot sweeper, Encore
WEAVILE - Choice Band wallbreaker, Swords Dance sweeper
MONFERNO - Choice Scarf, Life Orb, Choice band - wallbreaker, pivot, Stealth Rocks
S
Whiscash - Defensive RestTalk, Dragon Dance sweeper
Porygon-2 - Defensive, Choice Specs wallbreaker
Peliper - Defensive pivot, Defog, Rain Dance wallbreaker
Pinsir - Scarf sweeper, Swords Dance wallbreaker, Stealth Rocks
Probopass - Defensive pivot, Magnet Pull, Stealth Rocks
S-
Leafeon - Swords Dance wallbreaker, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, SubSeed, Wishpasser
Glaceon - Choice Specs wallbreaker, Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Wishpasser
Armaldo - Defensive, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rocks, Swords Dance wallbreaker
Smeargle - Sticky Webs, Spore
A+
Golem - Stealth Rocks Lead
Grumpig - Defensive, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf
Tangela - Defensive, Leech Seed
Mawile - Life Orb wallbreaker, Defensive, Rocks
Floatzel - Choice Band/ Choice Specs/ Life Orb/ mixed wallbreaker
A
Gabite - Defensive, Stealth Rocks, Choice Band, Choice Scarf
Lumineon - Defensive Pivot, Defog
Muk - Curse sweeper, Choice Band
Meganium - Defensive, Leech Seed, Aromatherapy, DualScreens
Luxray - Guts Wallbreaker
Victreebell - Life Orb mixed wallbreaker, Defensive, Choice Scarf, Swords Dance wallbreaker
A-
Jumpluff - Supportive pivot, Swords Dance sweeper, SubSeed,
Rampardos - Trick Room sweeper, Choice Scarf, Rock Polish sweeper, Life Orb wallbreaker
Regigigas - Defensive, Mixed wallbreaker
Kadabra - Teleport pivot, Calm Mind wallbreaker, Life Orb wallbreaker, Focus Sash, Encore
B+
Ninetales - Calm Mind/ Nasty Plot wallbreaker, Choice Scarf sweeper, supportive
Dugtrio - Choice Band, Substitute attacker, Life Orb wallbreaker, Stealth Rocks
Combusken - Swords Dance sweeper
Piloswine - Choice Band, Life Orb wallbreaker, Stealth Rocks
Roselia - Spikes, Toxic Spikes
Wartortle - Defensive, Rapid Spin, Shell Smash
Arbok - Coil sweeper - Intiminate
B
Lickcylicky - Curse Sweeper, Mixed attacker, Swords Dance wallbreaker
Pidgeot - Offensive Pivot, Defog, Choice Band wallbreaker
Staryu - Rapid Spin
Lapras - Defensive, Choice Specs Wallbreaker
Machoke - Guts wallbreaker, Defensive
Misdreavus - Nasty Plot wallbreaker, Supportive
Golduck - Rain Dance, Life Orb wallbreaker
Banette - Choice band, Supportive
Altaria - Choice Specs, Defensive
Regice - Defensive, Rock Polish sweeper
Dusclops - Defensive
Charizard - Life Orb mixed/ Choice Specs/ Choice Scarf wallbreaker, Dragon Dance sweeper
B-
Purugly - Offensive Pivot
Relicanth - Lead, Stealth Rocks, Rock Polish Sweeper, Choice Band
Kecleon - Mixed Life Orb wallbreaker, Trick Room setter
Dustox - Quiver Dance sweeper
(personal tier list uwu)
Hey y'all! At first I wanted to make a personal VR but the lack of experimentation with the new ladder made my list from B and below very obscure and speculative which I didn't want. So I decided to go with something else that I'm sure it's on point.
1. Problems
The first two mon that should be gone imo. Both are extremely menacing and restricting in building in their own ways and excel at their offensive roles having very little counterplay. Neither is stupid broken like we've had in other new bdsp metas but enough to have them look at. Both have amazing speed tier and burst through the meta w different capabilites. Sneasel by combination of powerful and spammable STABs and Raichu by having stupid good coverage and access to Nasty Plot.
Offensively they're both pretty frail but have quite enough chances to play agro between Raichu's Lightning Rod and Sneasel coming on psychic moves. So for offense having a way to revenge kill these guys with Monferno or Pinsir won't be that hard, cuz they are damn good too. Defensively on the other hand its a little bit different.
Raichu's 'answers' are mostly grass types, as its coverage doesnt allow ground types to act as checks, even Whiscash fears getting grass knotd. So Roselia, Victreebel and Meganium are the most reliable checks. Problem is that all of them get Volt Switched on by an AoA set. There's also stuff like Gabite which may work once. Also Shedinja, Chinchou (?. Ye its not looking good.
Sneasel is even more narrowed in terms of defensive counterplay, its only true answers are Mawile and phys def Regigigas, Probo can get bopped by Brick Break, while Phys def Machoke and Corsola are ok but kinda shaky. Everything else gets either 2hkod or oneshot by CB Sneasel with little chip/support. And not taking potential SD sets in consideration. Sneasel its easier to play around unlike Raichu and has less opportunities to claim a kill cuz no pivot move option, rock weakness and stuff but still not enough to be balanced imo.
Overall if both get banned the handling of Electric and Ice-types would get a lot more consistent and balanced
2. SHELL SMASH BROKEN!?
So mixed feelings here. On paper is super broken and this goes further with screens/webs support which is the next section. Its a mon to be on the radar, definintely. But Idk if it is that urgent as the previous two. It needs to find the proper turn to setup and weaken everything nice and sound for it to perform as end game sweeper or use it to make holes in early/mid game. Which it doesn't struggle that much to find out. Its just fast enough for scarfers like Monferno and Pinsir, but not faster than Rotom-Fan and Manectric which easily take it out. Tho Sucker Punch is also super annoying. Theres also mons like Lapras and Politoed who invalidate it but they struggle themselves to perform. It also sucks that Pelipper and Lumineon cant do other than U-turn back. I don't know yet, but with more testing on this will have a stronger opinion.
3. HO (Webs / Screens)
/
So these comps of HO teams specially Webs are spammed a lot on ladder and for a good reason. Like all lower tiers in bdsp, hazard removal kinda ass so they are very consistent. Both archetypes enable different types of sweepers and breakers to perform way better. Best example would be Rampardos for webs and the aforementioned Huntail for screens. Smeargle is that annoying as a lead that I've seen multi-hit shit anti-smeargle, so Shuckle is a good alternative for that. Screeners are kinda bad but the abusers are good enough (I'd rather use Grumpig for offensive purposes), you can also get creative on your sweepers cuz theres def stuff to use.
4. Might be issues
Monferno is just way too good. Its the type of mon that never gets banned but its way too consistent, so splashable and excellent on its role. Its prob the closest to an S we have.
I hate that they brought that specs Porygon2 set to life. Only Probo comes somewhat safely on it.
The fact that Victreebel can double its speed in one turn and access to Weather Ball its insane. Its also not the only set in can run. Super versatile and hard to scout between Sunny Day, Scarf, SD, access to Knock and Strength Sap in general.
Regigigas is actually so stupid, RestTalk + Knock and Bpress its super solid as a blanket tank. Mon just doesnt die and its bulk may be too much for the power creep of the tier. Use it pls this mon its unkillable .
1. Problems
The first two mon that should be gone imo. Both are extremely menacing and restricting in building in their own ways and excel at their offensive roles having very little counterplay. Neither is stupid broken like we've had in other new bdsp metas but enough to have them look at. Both have amazing speed tier and burst through the meta w different capabilites. Sneasel by combination of powerful and spammable STABs and Raichu by having stupid good coverage and access to Nasty Plot.
Offensively they're both pretty frail but have quite enough chances to play agro between Raichu's Lightning Rod and Sneasel coming on psychic moves. So for offense having a way to revenge kill these guys with Monferno or Pinsir won't be that hard, cuz they are damn good too. Defensively on the other hand its a little bit different.
Raichu's 'answers' are mostly grass types, as its coverage doesnt allow ground types to act as checks, even Whiscash fears getting grass knotd. So Roselia, Victreebel and Meganium are the most reliable checks. Problem is that all of them get Volt Switched on by an AoA set. There's also stuff like Gabite which may work once. Also Shedinja, Chinchou (?. Ye its not looking good.
Sneasel is even more narrowed in terms of defensive counterplay, its only true answers are Mawile and phys def Regigigas, Probo can get bopped by Brick Break, while Phys def Machoke and Corsola are ok but kinda shaky. Everything else gets either 2hkod or oneshot by CB Sneasel with little chip/support. And not taking potential SD sets in consideration. Sneasel its easier to play around unlike Raichu and has less opportunities to claim a kill cuz no pivot move option, rock weakness and stuff but still not enough to be balanced imo.
Overall if both get banned the handling of Electric and Ice-types would get a lot more consistent and balanced
2. SHELL SMASH BROKEN!?
So mixed feelings here. On paper is super broken and this goes further with screens/webs support which is the next section. Its a mon to be on the radar, definintely. But Idk if it is that urgent as the previous two. It needs to find the proper turn to setup and weaken everything nice and sound for it to perform as end game sweeper or use it to make holes in early/mid game. Which it doesn't struggle that much to find out. Its just fast enough for scarfers like Monferno and Pinsir, but not faster than Rotom-Fan and Manectric which easily take it out. Tho Sucker Punch is also super annoying. Theres also mons like Lapras and Politoed who invalidate it but they struggle themselves to perform. It also sucks that Pelipper and Lumineon cant do other than U-turn back. I don't know yet, but with more testing on this will have a stronger opinion.
3. HO (Webs / Screens)
So these comps of HO teams specially Webs are spammed a lot on ladder and for a good reason. Like all lower tiers in bdsp, hazard removal kinda ass so they are very consistent. Both archetypes enable different types of sweepers and breakers to perform way better. Best example would be Rampardos for webs and the aforementioned Huntail for screens. Smeargle is that annoying as a lead that I've seen multi-hit shit anti-smeargle, so Shuckle is a good alternative for that. Screeners are kinda bad but the abusers are good enough (I'd rather use Grumpig for offensive purposes), you can also get creative on your sweepers cuz theres def stuff to use.
4. Might be issues
Monferno is just way too good. Its the type of mon that never gets banned but its way too consistent, so splashable and excellent on its role. Its prob the closest to an S we have.
I hate that they brought that specs Porygon2 set to life. Only Probo comes somewhat safely on it.
The fact that Victreebel can double its speed in one turn and access to Weather Ball its insane. Its also not the only set in can run. Super versatile and hard to scout between Sunny Day, Scarf, SD, access to Knock and Strength Sap in general.
Regigigas is actually so stupid, RestTalk + Knock and Bpress its super solid as a blanket tank. Mon just doesnt die and its bulk may be too much for the power creep of the tier. Use it pls this mon its unkillable .
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wanted to make a post outlining a few of the things i think are really problematic for this meta and are holding it back from being really really fun to both build and play.
Raichu is definitely the most restrictive force on the teambuilder right now. While it often can underperform in practice, the fact that this thing can comfortably beat almost every single electric immunity in the tier with proper coverage makes it a complete nuisance to account for in the teambuilder. Nasty Plot, Volt Switch, Thuderbolt, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Surf, and even Encore are all fantastic moves that allow Raichu to be a complete menace in nearly any matchup, and it also has one of the best speed-tiers in PU, only being naturally out-sped by Floatzel, Purugly, Sneasel, and a handful of other mons that are more or less unviable (like Electrode and Ninjask). I think this guy is the single most un-fun thing about PU, as it's pretty much impossible to feel confident that any team you've built is comfortable against an opposing Raichu.
In many ways, Huntail can feel like the opposite of Raichu. While it isn't insanely constricting on teambuilder, in practice, this thing devours most builds. It also finds a surprising number of free turns, particularly against offense, because the general power level of the tier is somewhat low and Huntail has workable 55/105/75 bulk. Huntail also has the freedom to tech itself versus whatever it wants to handle offensively. Ice Beam 2HKOs physically defensive Pelipper and disposes of Grass-Types, while Body Slam is much stronger against opposing bulky waters like Lapras or Lumineon. Sucker Punch is obviously great, both as hard-hitting priority and useful coverage. I think the wealth of free turns this thing gets is a little too much for how powerful it is as a sweeper, and its ability to pick-and-choose what does and does not answer it reliably makes it feel problematic.
Probably my most controversial opinion about this tier is that Smeargle is pretty broken. I've heard and read a lot of arguments about Sticky Web and how the lack of hazard removal makes the playstyle far too consistent and overtuned. However, I would argue that the primary reason these teams are so powerful and consistent is actually because of Smeargle, not because of Sticky Web itself. Smeargle has a great speed-tier as an anti-lead, as the only faster Taunt users in the tier are Misdreavus, Glalie, Floatzel (I guess), and Purugly (sometimes). This means that in a wide array of matchups, Smeargle is virtually guaranteed to throw off a Spore, as well as get down Sticky Web and sometimes Stealth Rock as well. Smeargle also, of course, has the freedom to run whatever it wants, meaning it can run Explosion to prevent Substitute sweepers from instantly setting up and winning against it turn 1, Magic Coat to block fast Taunt users, Memento to help its teammates be broken, or its own Taunt to stop opposing hazard leads. I believe that Smeargle is the enabler of Sticky Web as a playstyle, as when Sticky Web teams are forced to use sub-optimal leads like Ariados or Shuckle, they become *far* less consistent in accomplishing their goals. Smeargle also functions as a fantastic lead rocker on non-Sticky-Web teams, and the Belly Drum E-Speed set is actually pretty good too. I'm not ruling out the possibility that maybe Sticky Web is just too powerful for this tier, as that could turn out to be true later down the line. However, as the tier currently stands, I think Smeargle's consistency as a lead is the primary reason for the playstyle being so problematic in the eyes of many and is a little too powerful for PU.
Not much that really needs to be said about Sneasel I think. Unbelievably great speed-tier, best priority in the tier in Ice Shard, and a fantastic ability. With essentially 0 Fairy-Types and like 3 viable Steel-Types, Sneasel ends up being by far the biggest threat to offensively oriented teams in almost any matchup. Choice Band sets hit like an absolute truck, and Swords Dance (while hard to find free turns with) eats basically any team for breakfast. Swords Dance sets also maintain the ability to switch moves, which is invaluable against offense - primarily because Ice Shard is such amazing priority to have for things like Jumpluff, Butterfree, Victreebel under Sun, and Gabite. Mawile is pretty much the only steadfast counter to Sneasel, and fitting Mawile on teams is hard to do as is. Base 115 Speed makes Sneasel the premier revenge killer in PU, as it outspeeds offensive staples like Raichu, Purugly and Kadabra, as well as speedy threats like Jumpluff, Rapidash, and Manectric. I just think that Sneasels combination of raw power, phenomenal offensive typing, great priority, and blazing speed-tier make it a bit too strong for PU.
These four are really the only things that I find to be constrictive on teambuilding or too powerful in practice, and I feel like the tier would be far better off with them gone than with them present. I'd be strongly in favor of banning all four.
Raichu is definitely the most restrictive force on the teambuilder right now. While it often can underperform in practice, the fact that this thing can comfortably beat almost every single electric immunity in the tier with proper coverage makes it a complete nuisance to account for in the teambuilder. Nasty Plot, Volt Switch, Thuderbolt, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Surf, and even Encore are all fantastic moves that allow Raichu to be a complete menace in nearly any matchup, and it also has one of the best speed-tiers in PU, only being naturally out-sped by Floatzel, Purugly, Sneasel, and a handful of other mons that are more or less unviable (like Electrode and Ninjask). I think this guy is the single most un-fun thing about PU, as it's pretty much impossible to feel confident that any team you've built is comfortable against an opposing Raichu.
In many ways, Huntail can feel like the opposite of Raichu. While it isn't insanely constricting on teambuilder, in practice, this thing devours most builds. It also finds a surprising number of free turns, particularly against offense, because the general power level of the tier is somewhat low and Huntail has workable 55/105/75 bulk. Huntail also has the freedom to tech itself versus whatever it wants to handle offensively. Ice Beam 2HKOs physically defensive Pelipper and disposes of Grass-Types, while Body Slam is much stronger against opposing bulky waters like Lapras or Lumineon. Sucker Punch is obviously great, both as hard-hitting priority and useful coverage. I think the wealth of free turns this thing gets is a little too much for how powerful it is as a sweeper, and its ability to pick-and-choose what does and does not answer it reliably makes it feel problematic.
Probably my most controversial opinion about this tier is that Smeargle is pretty broken. I've heard and read a lot of arguments about Sticky Web and how the lack of hazard removal makes the playstyle far too consistent and overtuned. However, I would argue that the primary reason these teams are so powerful and consistent is actually because of Smeargle, not because of Sticky Web itself. Smeargle has a great speed-tier as an anti-lead, as the only faster Taunt users in the tier are Misdreavus, Glalie, Floatzel (I guess), and Purugly (sometimes). This means that in a wide array of matchups, Smeargle is virtually guaranteed to throw off a Spore, as well as get down Sticky Web and sometimes Stealth Rock as well. Smeargle also, of course, has the freedom to run whatever it wants, meaning it can run Explosion to prevent Substitute sweepers from instantly setting up and winning against it turn 1, Magic Coat to block fast Taunt users, Memento to help its teammates be broken, or its own Taunt to stop opposing hazard leads. I believe that Smeargle is the enabler of Sticky Web as a playstyle, as when Sticky Web teams are forced to use sub-optimal leads like Ariados or Shuckle, they become *far* less consistent in accomplishing their goals. Smeargle also functions as a fantastic lead rocker on non-Sticky-Web teams, and the Belly Drum E-Speed set is actually pretty good too. I'm not ruling out the possibility that maybe Sticky Web is just too powerful for this tier, as that could turn out to be true later down the line. However, as the tier currently stands, I think Smeargle's consistency as a lead is the primary reason for the playstyle being so problematic in the eyes of many and is a little too powerful for PU.
Not much that really needs to be said about Sneasel I think. Unbelievably great speed-tier, best priority in the tier in Ice Shard, and a fantastic ability. With essentially 0 Fairy-Types and like 3 viable Steel-Types, Sneasel ends up being by far the biggest threat to offensively oriented teams in almost any matchup. Choice Band sets hit like an absolute truck, and Swords Dance (while hard to find free turns with) eats basically any team for breakfast. Swords Dance sets also maintain the ability to switch moves, which is invaluable against offense - primarily because Ice Shard is such amazing priority to have for things like Jumpluff, Butterfree, Victreebel under Sun, and Gabite. Mawile is pretty much the only steadfast counter to Sneasel, and fitting Mawile on teams is hard to do as is. Base 115 Speed makes Sneasel the premier revenge killer in PU, as it outspeeds offensive staples like Raichu, Purugly and Kadabra, as well as speedy threats like Jumpluff, Rapidash, and Manectric. I just think that Sneasels combination of raw power, phenomenal offensive typing, great priority, and blazing speed-tier make it a bit too strong for PU.
These four are really the only things that I find to be constrictive on teambuilding or too powerful in practice, and I feel like the tier would be far better off with them gone than with them present. I'd be strongly in favor of banning all four.
Hi! Sorry for the delay, but we've established a council for BDSP PU, consisting of the following people:
AstilCodex
Eve
glock in my toyota
TONE
Toy Time King
And then approximately 10 minutes after appointing the council, we moved on to sorting out quickbans. No reason to delay any more...
Raichu, Sneasel, Huntail, and Smeargle have been quickbanned from BDSP PU by council vote!
Raichu should need very little explanation beyond previous posts in this thread- its Nasty Plot set forces unreasonably specific prep to survive against and it can be extremely threatening even without setting up. Sneasel takes this level of immediate threat and launches it through several roofs, with its strong STAB combination being something very few Pokemon can deal with alongside its blazing Speed, which is only backed up further by Ice Shard. Huntail is an absolutely devastating sweeper by PU's standards, with very little being able to stand in its way at all- even bulky Water-types struggle to actually do much back to it outside of Lapras, especially with Water Veil providing it an immunity to Scald burns and making its physical set even harder to stop. Smeargle easily enables Sticky Web teams, which are immensely potent in a tier with awkward removal options that overlap weaknesses and fairly poor defensive tools all-round, and to make matters worse it also had deadly versatility in its Belly Drum set, which can shred players expecting Sticky Web Smeargle.
We have a few other Pokemon on our radar, but they aren't anywhere near as meta-warping as the above Pokemon, and as such we'd like to see how the tier plays out without the above Pokemon before voting on them. Stay tuned!
AstilCodex
Eve
glock in my toyota
TONE
Toy Time King
And then approximately 10 minutes after appointing the council, we moved on to sorting out quickbans. No reason to delay any more...
Raichu, Sneasel, Huntail, and Smeargle have been quickbanned from BDSP PU by council vote!
Raichu should need very little explanation beyond previous posts in this thread- its Nasty Plot set forces unreasonably specific prep to survive against and it can be extremely threatening even without setting up. Sneasel takes this level of immediate threat and launches it through several roofs, with its strong STAB combination being something very few Pokemon can deal with alongside its blazing Speed, which is only backed up further by Ice Shard. Huntail is an absolutely devastating sweeper by PU's standards, with very little being able to stand in its way at all- even bulky Water-types struggle to actually do much back to it outside of Lapras, especially with Water Veil providing it an immunity to Scald burns and making its physical set even harder to stop. Smeargle easily enables Sticky Web teams, which are immensely potent in a tier with awkward removal options that overlap weaknesses and fairly poor defensive tools all-round, and to make matters worse it also had deadly versatility in its Belly Drum set, which can shred players expecting Sticky Web Smeargle.
We have a few other Pokemon on our radar, but they aren't anywhere near as meta-warping as the above Pokemon, and as such we'd like to see how the tier plays out without the above Pokemon before voting on them. Stay tuned!
Some thoughts on mons that have potential in the tier
- weather setter since Volbeat left for RU
Specifically for Illumise, she also has great utility moves, like Thunder Wave, Charm and even Wish and Aromatherapy, making her an overall very good supporter
Nice list overall, but I have a serious question: have you tried offensive Meganium?
He still has nice bulk and can be a good wallbreaker for other offensive teammates, easily tanking at least one strong hit and answering back with an attack.
Meganium @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Petal Blizzard
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
Yes I have it was a decently large factor to it's placement although I feel like it might go down in popularity after Raichu ban, but maybe even more usage since sneazel got banned... We'll seeNice list overall, but I have a serious question: have you tried offensive Meganium?
He still has nice bulk and can be a good wallbreaker for other offensive teammates, easily tanking at least one strong hit and answering back with an attack.
Meganium @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Petal Blizzard
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
my influence
it grows
This is my first post, and I have no idea how to use the animated sprites.
I think Wormadam-Sandy is really good.
I either use
Wormadam-Sandy (F) @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Bug Bite
- Sucker Punch / Stealth Rock
The main reason I use it is because it's unique typing completely counters common Probopass sets. Body Press even at +2 does very little to Wormadam, while it's Earthquake does decent damage in return. As well due to it's ground typing, Probopass can't use Volt Switch. Wormadam can set up Stealth Rock if the Probopass decides to switch out.
+2 172+ Def Probopass Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%)
252+ Atk Wormadam-Sandy Earthquake vs. +2 248 HP / 172+ Def Probopass: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%)
Another Pokémon Wormadam is good against is Scarf Moxie Pinsir. Wormadam takes very little damage from CC or Earthquake, and with good Rock Blast RNG, it's possible to OHKO Pinsir.
252+ Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 56-66 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 67-79 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Wormadam-Sandy Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 265-310 (97.7 - 114.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
I think Wormadam-Sandy is really good.
I either use
Wormadam-Sandy (F) @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Bug Bite
- Sucker Punch / Stealth Rock
The main reason I use it is because it's unique typing completely counters common Probopass sets. Body Press even at +2 does very little to Wormadam, while it's Earthquake does decent damage in return. As well due to it's ground typing, Probopass can't use Volt Switch. Wormadam can set up Stealth Rock if the Probopass decides to switch out.
+2 172+ Def Probopass Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 94-111 (29 - 34.2%)
252+ Atk Wormadam-Sandy Earthquake vs. +2 248 HP / 172+ Def Probopass: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%)
Another Pokémon Wormadam is good against is Scarf Moxie Pinsir. Wormadam takes very little damage from CC or Earthquake, and with good Rock Blast RNG, it's possible to OHKO Pinsir.
252+ Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 56-66 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wormadam-Sandy: 67-79 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Wormadam-Sandy Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 265-310 (97.7 - 114.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
Cool niche, although it should be noted that Wormadam-S is a Ground-type that loses to both Manectric and Rotom-Fan
Now that we are finally in a post-ban PU meta, I've played my games, tested many pokemon and I believe I've cracked the formula for this tier. Here is my personal VR coming from a council member for the current PU meta. Some of my choices may be surprising but this tier is probably the most diverse in what you can use. The amount of stuff "on paper" that can work is immense.
S:
None
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C-rank:
D/Unranked:
Everything else. You didn't make the cut because you're awfully outclassed so there's no reason to use you (Girafarig) or you're just straight up trash (plusle)
You can click on the sprites to see my thoughts on the mon or just watch this video. I've done up to B+ and I skipped over to C rank. Thanks for reading!
S:
None
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C-rank:
D/Unranked:
Everything else. You didn't make the cut because you're awfully outclassed so there's no reason to use you (Girafarig) or you're just straight up trash (plusle)
You can click on the sprites to see my thoughts on the mon or just watch this video. I've done up to B+ and I skipped over to C rank. Thanks for reading!
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if you want to use the 3d model, use: :ss/pokemon name:
for the 2d moving sprites, use :bw/pokemon name:
for a 2d non-moving sprite, use :dp/pokemon name:
for example, here's how to do so with sandy wormadam:
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Trying to revive this now that I've got a rest from college. Been playing here and there and want to address some potential issues and hopefully create some further discussion about them. Let's start:
1. Big cuts
Most menacing mon in the meta and the one that has the radar on right now. Even though its STAB ain't the strongest, its combination of great coverage and powerful base moves in Edgequake + CC and its ability so easily snowball with Moxie makes it one of the best if not the best scarfer in the tier. This wouldn't be an issue on its own if it wasn't because of potential Band or SD sets, which Pinsir can take advantage of with its decent enough base speed, Pinsir acts as both a revenge killer, wallbreaker and mid-end game sweeper.
Offensively its best way of being handled is by faster Scarfers like Rotom-Fan, Charizard or Manectric, but none of those can come in if Pinsir had clicked the right move, so you basically need to outplay the move they'll be locked in. Defensively, ghost types like Dusclops and Bulky Misdreavus are the best and only consistent answers. Even so, Dusclops might lose a 1v1 to a potential SD lum set:
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 127-150 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Do you think Pinsir is too much for PU? Or is it manageable enough? Would like to hear others thoughts!
2. DUG
Oh boi, Dugtrio is nasty good. I'm not straight on my thoughts on this thing yet, but its definitely a mon that more people should talk about. What makes Duggy top tier its basically that Edgequake switch-ins are pretty much non-existent, combined with the 2nd highest relevant speed tier (Yes Ninjask is good :<) it wrecks havoc into everything that isn't Meganium or Dusclops, needing little chip to get mons in range of its strong EQ. I def think LO its is best set, as CB is a lot more prediction reliant. Aerial Ace and Sucker Punch are good fillers for Leafeon and KOing weakened scarfers. (Even Sludge Bomb if u hate Tangela is fine). Use duggy is really good, maybe too good?
3. Get your probo in or lose: The Pokemon
vs
As glock stated in an NU post recently, you either pick Ice-type p2 or Normal-type Glaceon. They both do similar roles and get walled by similar pokemon. The difference between them is mainly their typing and versatilty, which made the current opinion I have on these currently. While Glaceon is manageable because of how narrowed it is and the offensiveness of the tier. Porygon2 stands out for being a consistent Normal-type which have versatility in coverage, and potential moves for non choiced sets, like Recover, Twave and Trick Room. Furthermore, its coverage combined with Download makes it way scarier imo, as it is bulky enough and not SR weak.
tl; dr Glaceon ok, p2 kinda broken. Tho I know this isn't what most think.
I don't think there's anything worthy of mentioning atm, both Leafeon and Floatzel are top but not broken in the slightest to my eyes. I'd like to hear what people think. Hopefully we'll be working on an official VR soon. ^^
1. Big cuts
Most menacing mon in the meta and the one that has the radar on right now. Even though its STAB ain't the strongest, its combination of great coverage and powerful base moves in Edgequake + CC and its ability so easily snowball with Moxie makes it one of the best if not the best scarfer in the tier. This wouldn't be an issue on its own if it wasn't because of potential Band or SD sets, which Pinsir can take advantage of with its decent enough base speed, Pinsir acts as both a revenge killer, wallbreaker and mid-end game sweeper.
Offensively its best way of being handled is by faster Scarfers like Rotom-Fan, Charizard or Manectric, but none of those can come in if Pinsir had clicked the right move, so you basically need to outplay the move they'll be locked in. Defensively, ghost types like Dusclops and Bulky Misdreavus are the best and only consistent answers. Even so, Dusclops might lose a 1v1 to a potential SD lum set:
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 127-150 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Do you think Pinsir is too much for PU? Or is it manageable enough? Would like to hear others thoughts!
2. DUG
Oh boi, Dugtrio is nasty good. I'm not straight on my thoughts on this thing yet, but its definitely a mon that more people should talk about. What makes Duggy top tier its basically that Edgequake switch-ins are pretty much non-existent, combined with the 2nd highest relevant speed tier (Yes Ninjask is good :<) it wrecks havoc into everything that isn't Meganium or Dusclops, needing little chip to get mons in range of its strong EQ. I def think LO its is best set, as CB is a lot more prediction reliant. Aerial Ace and Sucker Punch are good fillers for Leafeon and KOing weakened scarfers. (Even Sludge Bomb if u hate Tangela is fine). Use duggy is really good, maybe too good?
3. Get your probo in or lose: The Pokemon
As glock stated in an NU post recently, you either pick Ice-type p2 or Normal-type Glaceon. They both do similar roles and get walled by similar pokemon. The difference between them is mainly their typing and versatilty, which made the current opinion I have on these currently. While Glaceon is manageable because of how narrowed it is and the offensiveness of the tier. Porygon2 stands out for being a consistent Normal-type which have versatility in coverage, and potential moves for non choiced sets, like Recover, Twave and Trick Room. Furthermore, its coverage combined with Download makes it way scarier imo, as it is bulky enough and not SR weak.
tl; dr Glaceon ok, p2 kinda broken. Tho I know this isn't what most think.
I don't think there's anything worthy of mentioning atm, both Leafeon and Floatzel are top but not broken in the slightest to my eyes. I'd like to hear what people think. Hopefully we'll be working on an official VR soon. ^^
Trying to revive this now that I've got a rest from college. Been playing here and there and want to address some potential issues and hopefully create some further discussion about them. Let's start:
1. Big cuts
Most menacing mon in the meta and the one that has the radar on right now. Even though its STAB ain't the strongest, its combination of great coverage and powerful base moves in Edgequake + CC and its ability so easily snowball with Moxie makes it one of the best if not the best scarfer in the tier. This wouldn't be an issue on its own if it wasn't because of potential Band or SD sets, which Pinsir can take advantage of with its decent enough base speed, Pinsir acts as both a revenge killer, wallbreaker and mid-end game sweeper.
Offensively its best way of being handled is by faster Scarfers like Rotom-Fan, Charizard or Manectric, but none of those can come in if Pinsir had clicked the right move, so you basically need to outplay the move they'll be locked in. Defensively, ghost types like Dusclops and Bulky Misdreavus are the best and only consistent answers. Even so, Dusclops might lose a 1v1 to a potential SD lum set:
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 127-150 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Do you think Pinsir is too much for PU? Or is it manageable enough? Would like to hear others thoughts!
2. DUG
Oh boi, Dugtrio is nasty good. I'm not straight on my thoughts on this thing yet, but its definitely a mon that more people should talk about. What makes Duggy top tier its basically that Edgequake switch-ins are pretty much non-existent, combined with the 2nd highest relevant speed tier (Yes Ninjask is good :<) it wrecks havoc into everything that isn't Meganium or Dusclops, needing little chip to get mons in range of its strong EQ. I def think LO its is best set, as CB is a lot more prediction reliant. Aerial Ace and Sucker Punch are good fillers for Leafeon and KOing weakened scarfers. (Even Sludge Bomb if u hate Tangela is fine). Use duggy is really good, maybe too good?
3. Get your probo in or lose: The Pokemon
vs
As glock stated in an NU post recently, you either pick Ice-type p2 or Normal-type Glaceon. They both do similar roles and get walled by similar pokemon. The difference between them is mainly their typing and versatilty, which made the current opinion I have on these currently. While Glaceon is manageable because of how narrowed it is and the offensiveness of the tier. Porygon2 stands out for being a consistent Normal-type which have versatility in coverage, and potential moves for non choiced sets, like Recover, Twave and Trick Room. Furthermore, its coverage combined with Download makes it way scarier imo, as it is bulky enough and not SR weak.
tl; dr Glaceon ok, p2 kinda broken. Tho I know this isn't what most think.
I don't think there's anything worthy of mentioning atm, both Leafeon and Floatzel are top but not broken in the slightest to my eyes. I'd like to hear what people think. Hopefully we'll be working on an official VR soon. ^^
I 100% agree with regard to what you're saying about the bug. Pinsir is extremely hard to check, and has not a single perfect wall to it's name. PU is also an extremely offensive oriented meta, meaning that many teams don't have any switchins whatsoever into it, made even worse by it's abillity making it snowball and sweep with exceptional ease. The biggest pushing factor to this is it's versitility in sets, and it's speed, which allows it to outspeed offensive team's only speed control in Scarf Monferno.
I'm not too sure about duggy being a huge threat. It can't set up at all, unless running a hone claws set, and has a few good walls to it, as it's attack stat is manageable. Bulky Grasses, and even Leafeon can easily check it as Aerial Ace is a 60 BP move and Sludge Bomb is coming off of an uninvested special attack. Many of these grasses also have easy recovery in Wish, Regenerator, or Synthesis. It's typing also leaves it very vulnerable to common moves like Scald, meaning that it can never swap in, even on electrics. Regigigas is also a huge annoyance to it, as it can easily tank it's earthquakes and rest them off, and OHKO duggy. Since it relies on EQ to deal damage, it can also be easily exploited by pivoting, as many bulky waters can swap into the likes of Stone Edge. Overall it's a very good pokemon against offense, and can rip huge holes in defesive teams, but not in the level of Pinsir.
Porygon-2 is not broken, until you look at the stats of PU, and see that 90% of everthing is physically defensive, meaning that P2 can have 2 Choice Specs equipped. Another factor to it's insanity is it's great natural bulk, Recover, and the lack of proper resists in the tier. The only pokemon that hard walls it is Probopass, who lacks healing and tends to run physical defense for Body Press, meaning that it can still be worn out quickly. It's versitility also makes it very unpredictable, as it can even run defensive sets effectively with Twave and Recover.
Glaceon is in a simmilar boat to P2, in that it's only counter is Probopass, but unlike P2, Glaceon has a move to hit it with, in Water Pulse. Although it's prediction reliant, Glaceon has no counters in the tier, but it struggles a bit more than P2 as it's a slow Ice Type. On account of personal bias, I like Glaceon in the tier, as I love using it as a bulky wishpasser that can counter other Glaceon.
I've made some changes in my personal VR which is above or click here, been testing out some few things and I'll share my new thoughts.
Rises
B to A-: yeah Dusclops is actually pretty cracked. I did respect the bulk it had and I told people it was probably the best single Pinsir check in the tier but in addition to that, it just walls a big amount of the physically inclined metagame. Lack of Dark types in this tier plus the lack of Ghosts too make Dusclops pretty hard to take down, it hardly gets 2hkod by everything and it just throws out burns and chips everything with Night Shade. Really pairs well with stuff like Probo too.
B to B+: I think this has potential to even go higher but I seemed to have underestimated how free EdgeQuake is in this tier. It's the reason why Dugtrio is amazing (that also has a godlike speed tier but anyway), Marowak is probably the next best rocker after Armaldo and Golem. It's essentially a bulkier Rampardos with a better defensive typing. Rampardos already nuked the whole tier. Marowak does the same thing. It also blanket checks stuff like Pinsir and other physical threats thanks to its good natural defence stat. If they have a ground resist, you don't even need to necessarily click Stone Edge, Rock Head Double Edge is pretty free too.
Drops
A to A-: I think it's a no brainer that I want to drop this down one subrank. Pelipper and Lumineon being in the same tier isn't accurate to me anymore. Lumineon always feels like the better option to run nowadays. If you go a bulky ground stealth rocker + defensive water core, Pelipper just lets it down more than Lumineon. Rocks weakness really lets this thing down, being forced to roost isn't the greatest thing in the world and sure Lumineon has no recovery but it doesn't have to waste a turn healing because it can't. It's less bulkier on the physical side but you really hardly notice that. Lumineon still checks Monferno better and doesn't instantly die to any of Pinsir's moves at +1 like Peli does with Edge.
B+ to B: I think I got a bit too overhyped on Golduck thanks to had sweep but yeah this mon should not be this high. When all is considered, this is an inferior Floatzel, yes it can set up its own Rain Dance and it breaks better than Floatzel, setting up that Rain Dance is always harder in practice tbh. This mon isn't bad, it can still do a lot if it gets going but Floatzel is still just superior.
B to B-: Meganium is hella washed ngl. I wanted to drop it into C but it's not anywhere near the C rank mons in viability i'll be honest. It's just such a... Do nothing mon that really only checks Dugtrio but so does Leafeon. Offensive Meganium sets, also outclassed by Leafeon and Jumpluff. It's the worst "not bad" grass type in this tier and I slowly lose more reason to run this mon. It still has screens I suppose but that doesn't stop this from dropping for me.
Thanks for reading!
Rises
B to A-: yeah Dusclops is actually pretty cracked. I did respect the bulk it had and I told people it was probably the best single Pinsir check in the tier but in addition to that, it just walls a big amount of the physically inclined metagame. Lack of Dark types in this tier plus the lack of Ghosts too make Dusclops pretty hard to take down, it hardly gets 2hkod by everything and it just throws out burns and chips everything with Night Shade. Really pairs well with stuff like Probo too. B to B+: I think this has potential to even go higher but I seemed to have underestimated how free EdgeQuake is in this tier. It's the reason why Dugtrio is amazing (that also has a godlike speed tier but anyway), Marowak is probably the next best rocker after Armaldo and Golem. It's essentially a bulkier Rampardos with a better defensive typing. Rampardos already nuked the whole tier. Marowak does the same thing. It also blanket checks stuff like Pinsir and other physical threats thanks to its good natural defence stat. If they have a ground resist, you don't even need to necessarily click Stone Edge, Rock Head Double Edge is pretty free too.Drops
A to A-: I think it's a no brainer that I want to drop this down one subrank. Pelipper and Lumineon being in the same tier isn't accurate to me anymore. Lumineon always feels like the better option to run nowadays. If you go a bulky ground stealth rocker + defensive water core, Pelipper just lets it down more than Lumineon. Rocks weakness really lets this thing down, being forced to roost isn't the greatest thing in the world and sure Lumineon has no recovery but it doesn't have to waste a turn healing because it can't. It's less bulkier on the physical side but you really hardly notice that. Lumineon still checks Monferno better and doesn't instantly die to any of Pinsir's moves at +1 like Peli does with Edge. B+ to B: I think I got a bit too overhyped on Golduck thanks to had sweep but yeah this mon should not be this high. When all is considered, this is an inferior Floatzel, yes it can set up its own Rain Dance and it breaks better than Floatzel, setting up that Rain Dance is always harder in practice tbh. This mon isn't bad, it can still do a lot if it gets going but Floatzel is still just superior. B to B-: Meganium is hella washed ngl. I wanted to drop it into C but it's not anywhere near the C rank mons in viability i'll be honest. It's just such a... Do nothing mon that really only checks Dugtrio but so does Leafeon. Offensive Meganium sets, also outclassed by Leafeon and Jumpluff. It's the worst "not bad" grass type in this tier and I slowly lose more reason to run this mon. It still has screens I suppose but that doesn't stop this from dropping for me.Thanks for reading!
Also would like to share a VR I made. Played a lot of BDSP pu and messed with a lot of stuff.
Some thoughts:
Far from its glory in BW and DPP, Charizard doesn’t like the loss of options like Hidden Power, Toxic, and Dragon Dance. For all the support it needs, I find it doesn’t really need hazard removal to function - rather, Charizard can be threatening right out the gate with a 3 attacks + roost set alongside leftovers. A faster Speed tier than leafeon and the ability to reliably recover in a tier without many recovery options, Charizard is still a strong attacker that lasts longer than one would expect. Its typing allows for it to uniquely pivot into most Monferno variants and check opposing Fire-types, all while striking back with Flying STAB. It can function as a decent emergency check to Scarf Pinsir and Band Duggy when they’re locked into the wrong move, which gives it some switch-in opportunities with good prediction. Lastly, Choice Specs makes it a terrifying wallbreaker early-game while Life Orb does the same but gives freedom in switching moves. Personally, Charizard is still excellent here and I’ve found success in it when paired with good checks to Water-types and bulky Pokemon to stomach revenge killers.
Despite losing Return, Body Slam, and Power-Up Punch, three useful moves in its kit, Regigigas is quite fearsome and is one of the hardest Pokemon to take on in a 1v1 scenario. As one of the few users to have Knock Off, and for how well Facade synergizes with RestTalk, Regigigas is extremely difficult to deal with over the course of a longer game. Rock-types like Golem and Probopass that can normally switch into both of these moves absolutely hate being whittled down by Knock Off, and even through their Great bulk, they’re still prone to getting worn down since neither of them have any reliable recovery. Worse, Golem doesn’t have reliable options to set up in front of Regi, so it either has to explode when worst comes to worst. Probopass does well with its trademark Iron Defense set, but it can still be taken advantage of by most Pokemon through a Ground-type, strong special attackers, or super effective hits, making it prone to being overwhelmed. I personally elect for Substitute + Protect to take advantage of passive Defoggers like Lumineon and Pelipper, while also providing a second layer of protection so slow start can wear off. Physical Body Press sets are decent at deterring Probopass, but I’d go for Drain to provide extra recovery at that point, since Gigas doesn’t like having to rely on Rest as its only form of recovery. This is more than a niche Pokemon - i think it’s the second best Normal-type, behind Porygon2. The changes make Gigas from one of the worst Pokemon in the game to a fantastic PU Pokemon.
The most well-known Spiker have always intrigued me since PU’s introduction. The rise in Dusclops allows Rose to perform a bit better through Natural Cure and Sleep Powder, as it can outlast the cycle of Night Shade through Black Sludge. However, I personally think Glalie does a better job at Spiking than Roselia, which may seem strange given its much worse defensive typing, lower SpA, and lack of sleep. This is through Taunt, a higher Speed tier, a more valuable offensive typing, and better physical bulk. Roselia is so physically frail that most strong neutral hits from wallbreakers like Dugtrio, Pinsir, and Monferno can deal massive damage to it or just outright KO it. While Tangela cannot bear to deal with Rose, even Pokemon it is supposed to check, like Manectric and Pellipper, can often beat it anyways because they have super effective coverage that preys on its low stats.
The two most dangerous wallbreakers and cleaners are not to be trifled with. Pinsir is consistent with multiple offensive sets, the most well-known being the Scarf Moxie. Swords Dance sets have also seen use to ease prediction against bulkier teams, ones that often have Probopass, Tangela, Pelipper, and Lumineon overlapping. Lead Stealth Rock sets can be used for surprise factor, and while still potent due to its good matchups against Pelipper, Probopass, and Golem, it’s generally a waste for its offensive potential and generally prefers the other two sets.
Dugtrio is especially nasty for how the two bulky Grasses (Leafeon and Meganium) are worn down so easily. For those who played BDSP NU, think of Aerodactyl’s influence. Dugtrio somewhat mirrors this by having the best Speed tier in the meta (Ninjask is extremely hard to build with and Electrode is terrible), and its power is high enough that most neutral targets take a lot of damage from Earthquake. Pelipper and Pidgeot hate dealing with Stone Edge, and scarfers must be healthy enough to not get picked off by sucker punch. Leafeon is the most splashably bulky check, but it gets worn down easily by Rocks damage and resisted hits, and synthesis can be taken advantage of with smart prediction, and scarfers aren’t realistically going to be healthy enough most of the time to maintain enough health to check duggy.
I think these two are banworthy by how hard it is to deal with their offensive capabilities. That’s pretty much it for now, thanks for reading!
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Far from its glory in BW and DPP, Charizard doesn’t like the loss of options like Hidden Power, Toxic, and Dragon Dance. For all the support it needs, I find it doesn’t really need hazard removal to function - rather, Charizard can be threatening right out the gate with a 3 attacks + roost set alongside leftovers. A faster Speed tier than leafeon and the ability to reliably recover in a tier without many recovery options, Charizard is still a strong attacker that lasts longer than one would expect. Its typing allows for it to uniquely pivot into most Monferno variants and check opposing Fire-types, all while striking back with Flying STAB. It can function as a decent emergency check to Scarf Pinsir and Band Duggy when they’re locked into the wrong move, which gives it some switch-in opportunities with good prediction. Lastly, Choice Specs makes it a terrifying wallbreaker early-game while Life Orb does the same but gives freedom in switching moves. Personally, Charizard is still excellent here and I’ve found success in it when paired with good checks to Water-types and bulky Pokemon to stomach revenge killers.
Despite losing Return, Body Slam, and Power-Up Punch, three useful moves in its kit, Regigigas is quite fearsome and is one of the hardest Pokemon to take on in a 1v1 scenario. As one of the few users to have Knock Off, and for how well Facade synergizes with RestTalk, Regigigas is extremely difficult to deal with over the course of a longer game. Rock-types like Golem and Probopass that can normally switch into both of these moves absolutely hate being whittled down by Knock Off, and even through their Great bulk, they’re still prone to getting worn down since neither of them have any reliable recovery. Worse, Golem doesn’t have reliable options to set up in front of Regi, so it either has to explode when worst comes to worst. Probopass does well with its trademark Iron Defense set, but it can still be taken advantage of by most Pokemon through a Ground-type, strong special attackers, or super effective hits, making it prone to being overwhelmed. I personally elect for Substitute + Protect to take advantage of passive Defoggers like Lumineon and Pelipper, while also providing a second layer of protection so slow start can wear off. Physical Body Press sets are decent at deterring Probopass, but I’d go for Drain to provide extra recovery at that point, since Gigas doesn’t like having to rely on Rest as its only form of recovery. This is more than a niche Pokemon - i think it’s the second best Normal-type, behind Porygon2. The changes make Gigas from one of the worst Pokemon in the game to a fantastic PU Pokemon.
The most well-known Spiker have always intrigued me since PU’s introduction. The rise in Dusclops allows Rose to perform a bit better through Natural Cure and Sleep Powder, as it can outlast the cycle of Night Shade through Black Sludge. However, I personally think Glalie does a better job at Spiking than Roselia, which may seem strange given its much worse defensive typing, lower SpA, and lack of sleep. This is through Taunt, a higher Speed tier, a more valuable offensive typing, and better physical bulk. Roselia is so physically frail that most strong neutral hits from wallbreakers like Dugtrio, Pinsir, and Monferno can deal massive damage to it or just outright KO it. While Tangela cannot bear to deal with Rose, even Pokemon it is supposed to check, like Manectric and Pellipper, can often beat it anyways because they have super effective coverage that preys on its low stats.
The two most dangerous wallbreakers and cleaners are not to be trifled with. Pinsir is consistent with multiple offensive sets, the most well-known being the Scarf Moxie. Swords Dance sets have also seen use to ease prediction against bulkier teams, ones that often have Probopass, Tangela, Pelipper, and Lumineon overlapping. Lead Stealth Rock sets can be used for surprise factor, and while still potent due to its good matchups against Pelipper, Probopass, and Golem, it’s generally a waste for its offensive potential and generally prefers the other two sets.
Dugtrio is especially nasty for how the two bulky Grasses (Leafeon and Meganium) are worn down so easily. For those who played BDSP NU, think of Aerodactyl’s influence. Dugtrio somewhat mirrors this by having the best Speed tier in the meta (Ninjask is extremely hard to build with and Electrode is terrible), and its power is high enough that most neutral targets take a lot of damage from Earthquake. Pelipper and Pidgeot hate dealing with Stone Edge, and scarfers must be healthy enough to not get picked off by sucker punch. Leafeon is the most splashably bulky check, but it gets worn down easily by Rocks damage and resisted hits, and synthesis can be taken advantage of with smart prediction, and scarfers aren’t realistically going to be healthy enough most of the time to maintain enough health to check duggy.
I think these two are banworthy by how hard it is to deal with their offensive capabilities. That’s pretty much it for now, thanks for reading!
Just in case no one noticed, BDSP PU finally has a Viability Rankings and Role Compendium, which are here and here
Regarding what is going to happen in the future, the council is considering the problematic things in the tier and we will get back to you on what we will do. Sample teams should be coming soon as well so be on the lookout for that.
Regarding what is going to happen in the future, the council is considering the problematic things in the tier and we will get back to you on what we will do. Sample teams should be coming soon as well so be on the lookout for that.
I would like to nominate Charizard to an A Tier Threat
Despite a crippling stealth rocks weakness this mon functionally has no counters that can switch into it's sheer firepower.
The more popular water types of this tier just can't switch into Charizard's Life Orb boosted air slashes. Leaving only niche counter play.
Water Type Counterplay
Bulky pivot Lumineon
cleanly 2HKO'ed by Air Slash
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 161-191 (47 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Max Spdef sets can't switch in well. They just can't do enough damage to Charizard even if they don't get flinched
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lumineon: 113-134 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In this scenario it can retaliate with scald, failing to deal enough damage
0 SpA Lumineon Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 146-174 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky Pivot Pelipper
fairs even worse
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 129-152 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
fairs better than both Lumineon and Pelipper, but only if it is an extremely spdef set
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 126-149 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 187-220 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 187-220 (51.8 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can't take Air Slashes unless it invests it's special defense. Which takes away from the point of using it as a calm mind sweeper
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 169-200 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even the most specially bulky
Lapras Dies to Flamethrower + Focus Blast with stealth rocks up
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 126-149 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 71.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 224-265 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rock Type Counterplay
Bulky Pivot Probopass
also stands no chance without the help of a type reducing berry
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 322-385 (99.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Max Spdef Golem
dies to resisted hits + Focus Blast
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 72.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Other Counterplay
Grumpig might sound like a sound counter given it's modest bulk and fire resistance, but the standard offensive sets just can't stand up to LO Air Slash after stealth rocks, even with leftovers.
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 133-156 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Is a sound counter to fire blasts, but fails to defend against Air Slash as it often runs very offensive sets in this meta.
Even a theoretical leftovers set is 2HKO'ed after rocks.
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 136-161 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 136-161 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With a majority of Pokemon unable to contest it's powerful air slashes there is only a small amount of Pokemon capable of fully countering this Charizard. These Pokemon include specially defense variants of Politoed, Flareon, Lunatone and Whiscash. The list ends here as the amount of fire resistant, non-fighting weak specially defense Pokemon with the stats or typing to take a couple air slashes just aren't here and very rarely used. This leaves Charizard uncontested with it's base 100 speed tier where nothing faster than it can safely switch in at all.
I think the council should definitely watch this Pokemon. I've used it and it doesn't feel very healthy for the tier
Despite a crippling stealth rocks weakness this mon functionally has no counters that can switch into it's sheer firepower.
The more popular water types of this tier just can't switch into Charizard's Life Orb boosted air slashes. Leaving only niche counter play.
Water Type Counterplay
Bulky pivot Lumineon
cleanly 2HKO'ed by Air Slash252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 161-191 (47 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even Max Spdef sets can't switch in well. They just can't do enough damage to Charizard even if they don't get flinched
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lumineon: 113-134 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In this scenario it can retaliate with scald, failing to deal enough damage
0 SpA Lumineon Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 146-174 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky Pivot Pelipper
fairs even worse252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 129-152 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
fairs better than both Lumineon and Pelipper, but only if it is an extremely spdef set252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash: 126-149 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 187-220 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 187-220 (51.8 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can't take Air Slashes unless it invests it's special defense. Which takes away from the point of using it as a calm mind sweeper252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 169-200 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even the most specially bulky
Lapras Dies to Flamethrower + Focus Blast with stealth rocks up252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 126-149 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 71.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 224-265 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rock Type Counterplay
Bulky Pivot Probopass
also stands no chance without the help of a type reducing berry 252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 322-385 (99.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Max Spdef Golem
dies to resisted hits + Focus Blast 252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 72.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golem: 283-335 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Other Counterplay
Grumpig might sound like a sound counter given it's modest bulk and fire resistance, but the standard offensive sets just can't stand up to LO Air Slash after stealth rocks, even with leftovers.252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 133-156 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Is a sound counter to fire blasts, but fails to defend against Air Slash as it often runs very offensive sets in this meta.Even a theoretical leftovers set is 2HKO'ed after rocks.
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 136-161 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 136-161 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With a majority of Pokemon unable to contest it's powerful air slashes there is only a small amount of Pokemon capable of fully countering this Charizard. These Pokemon include specially defense variants of Politoed, Flareon, Lunatone and Whiscash. The list ends here as the amount of fire resistant, non-fighting weak specially defense Pokemon with the stats or typing to take a couple air slashes just aren't here and very rarely used. This leaves Charizard uncontested with it's base 100 speed tier where nothing faster than it can safely switch in at all.
I think the council should definitely watch this Pokemon. I've used it and it doesn't feel very healthy for the tier
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