Berry Juice

[Heysup]

Often a Pokemon's weakest Attack + its strongest attack doesn't KO a Pokemon. That's the ideal thing to do even in the Oran Berry metagame, but most Pokemon can't pull it off.

And....what's the delay with getting Berry Juice up? This delay is killing Little Cup's chance to get new members playing because of the lack of analysis on site.

 

[ChaosAkita]

If berry juice is allowed, what would happen? A way more defensive metagame or what?

 

[Matthew]

If berry juice is allowed, what would happen? A way more defensive metagame or what?

There is no way to say what will exactly happen in a metagame where Berry Juice is allowed, the changes it will bring affect the entire metagame, as Oran Berry is now 100% outclassed. Walls are more bulky, yes, but sweepers also are able to shrug off stronger hits and set up easier.

Frankly until Berry Juice is implemented on Shoddy we have no way to tell what exactly will happen.

 

[Sledge]

I believe that berry juice will end up being extremely broken. Oran berry is very potent as is and has the potential to ruin or a least make it much more difficult to sweep if not prepared for it. Berry juice would have the potential to fully heal some not-as-bulky pokes. That being said, I don't think it would be bad to test it as long as its not a major operation. In the end, i think it will most certainly be banned, but a test could still be worth it.

 

[The Grand Babido]

it will obviously be broken, but a little test cant hurt

 

[umbarsc]

You'd be surprised. If you think that it is "obviously" broken, it is by far easier to ban it now than waste months arguing with a small minority that thinks it's just fine.

However, I think it's more that "we have no idea what the full impact of this will be so we should at least find out".

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Well, we have strict testing protocol planned, so it should be no problem.

 

[little gk]

Berry Juice is up on SU everyone! Yay!

no, I'm not just a random guy who noticed it, I'm a semi-random guy with permission to announce!

 

[Matthew]

Though this doesn't mean Berry Juice testing has officially started, consider this more of a taste before the official testing begins (when it is either implemented on CAP or when ShoddyBattle2 comes out).

 

[Banryu]

Pretty much this. I fail to see how it will be broken. With Oran Berry your 22 HP or whatever pokemon goes down to 10 HP. Oran heals 10 HP and you are back at 20 HP. In this case Berry Juice heals 20 and you are back at 22. Hardly a massive difference. Berry Juice is only going to be significant on pokemon with HP above 26 or so, which are few and far between. And it's not like walls are particularly sturdy anyway. If anything Berry Juice will help keep other borderline/powerful hard hitters in check.

This may be the case, but suppose the hit deals 20 damage or so, and the defending Pokemon goes down to 2 HP. I hardly need to explain what would happen here, and the result is that what would normally be a 2HKO through Oran Berry becomes a 3HKO. I feel that this is a substantial difference, but I can't say that it would be considered 'broken'. I would agree that some tests are due for this...

But let's try to get through them quickly, huh? I'd like to see some more LC analyses... D:

 

[askaninjask]

I'd like to propose a specific definition of 'broken', for when we have to make a decision as to whether we will include this item or not.

If an item gets rid of more viable Pokemon than it creates, then it is broken, and should be banned.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions on what makes an item objectively broken.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

As much as we appreciate the effort, we've already determined a hard and fast definition.

If the inclusion of an item requires an inordinate number of bans to balance, or requires the implementation of Item Clause or any other form of subjective restriction, it will be banned.

I think we decided that the "inordinate number of bans" would be ~5 new hard suspects in addition the the five current ones (Gligar, Misdreavus, Yanma, Meditite, Murkrow (only in berry juice metagame) on IRC between me, Gen, and a couple others.

 

[Despotar]

I don't think it's broken, as latios said, little cups LC is very offensive.

 

[little gk]

well with berry juice around, I'm seeing WAY more bulky stuff. Wynaut is simply opening huge holes for set-up sweepers such as Dratini to DD up and easily sweep. This is because of Berry Juice making hings more bulky, so yes LC is still offensive, but that doesn't mean Berry Juice is having a minimal impact

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think this thread has kinda outlived its usefulness, and I wanna get rid of the poll and stuff.

Closed. Expect a new thread up shortly.