Berry Juice

[eric the espeon]

I would expect it to be highly game changing, but until we test it its impossible to see if the effect will actually be negative. Its a choice of do we want to keep roughly the current metagame, or go for a large metagame wide change. I'm not sure personally.

Edit: Agreeing that the word "broken" is misleading.

 

[Stagnant]

Can it be Plucked?

 

[eric the espeon]

No. Nor can it be Bug Bitten.

 

[Heysup]

Why is this a poll thread? Of course someone who doesn't really know / play LC will say 'Omg test everything'. It's very irrelevant imo. Anyway, I think since Berry Juice has an actual fact-based argument to be 'banned before testing', I don't see why it's a bad idea.

I wasn't really clear, what I mean is that I wouldn't complain if it was banned immediately. A metagame where 2HKOes are impossible (yes, i actually mean it is IMPOSSIBLE, you cannot 2HKO something with Berry Juice) makes for a very unstable one, clearly, favoring any naturally high BST Pokemon like Missy and Gligar who are already being discussed for suspect status. So, as I was saying, people who don't understand LC wouldn't realize this and that's why a discussion thread would prove more useful, rather then having an irrelevant (imo) poll added on to mislead some people.

Also I would really dislike what it would do to the testing priorities of the LC metagame. I can see people screaming "OMG TEST SCYTHER, BERRY JUICE MAKES POKEMON LIVE THROUGH ITS +2 90 BP STAB ATTACKS COMING OFF OF ITS 105 BASE ATTACK STAT". It's already started actually.....

So overall, a test wouldn't hurt, but I think it would just be annoying or a waste of time, or both.

 

[franky]

We had a brief discussion in IRC and I'm convinced that Berry Juice needs that theorymon ban. The reasoning behind this is because the target will either get the OHKO or a 3HKO, and will never even come close to a 2HKO. The entire tier will be dominated by set-up sweepers with Berry Juice slapped on them. With Berry Juice, it will be a one dimensional metagame filled with set-up sweepers and sturdy walls to stop them.

Although some may argue that this will increase Choice users to grab the OHKOes, but this only leads to set-up users from having an easier time to set up. Its virtually unstoppable for them once they get their boost (take it from Missy and Gligar with Berry Juice). Overall the impact would just be terrible in this metagame.

Some may say that testing will never hurt, but its ultimately a waste of time when theorymon banning is the best option. Just take a brief moment to the impact of Berry Juice, and ban it from there. I support theorymon ban.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Voted for testing. As previously mentioned, if it's found to be broken, then it is indeed broken.

 

[Mailman]

Voted for testing although it sounds broken we will realize right away when we playtest it so I don't believe the testing will take to long.

 

[Slice]

voted tested for reasons already stated.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

no way does everyone here play LC. You should probably make sure that the people here actually know what there talking about, maybe post this again on the LC forums to make sure the vote isn't ruined by people who think that 20 hp recovery sucks. I usually ladder against the same three people, so no way do 93 other people actually play LC.

 

[ThePatriot]

im no expert on little cup, but i think we should at least test it out before we ban it.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

I understand, and I mostly agree with you. I am just saying that the vote should be kept to people who mostly know what they are talking about.

 

[Naxte]

im no expert on little cup, but i think we should at least test it out before we ban it.

Same. My position and reasoning would remain the same even if I did play Little Cup matches frequently. Without an actual test, I can't be confident over whether it's actually broken or not. It's certainly going to be quite the potent force, but I'm not sure how it will actually work out, and whether it will quite hit the line of being broken or not. Plus, a test does not hurt anyway, so there's nothing to be lost by doing so; at least there's no doubt after a test, and we'll be able to actually conclusively say whether it's broken or not. And if it is clearly broken, of course we won't have to keep it on for the whole month or whatever: it can just be removed ala Deoxys-S. Putting this together, I can't see the harm in at least giving it a shot.

 

[Matthew]

I understand, and I mostly agree with you. I am just saying that the vote should be kept to people who mostly know what they are talking about.

Gary the gengar, you should know that everyone that even bothers to come to this thread is a potential new player to the Little Cup Metagame. So I would expect their opinions to count just as much as the others, if they want to start playing in a metagame filled with Berry Juice, then I do not see why they shouldn't get a say.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Because votes regarding tiering should be restricted only to skilled players who understand the metagame, thus why all suspect tests are limited to proven skilled battlers who through their skill have proven their ability to evaluate the metagame.

 

[capefeather]

But this isn't actually a vote regarding tiering. The vote is biased, sure, but it's not a binding statement about banning anything.

I don't really see why people consider testing a waste of time. The claim seems to be that if a test doesn't change anything, it was a waste of time. Very little could be further from the truth. When someone asks why Deoxys-S is Uber, we have a couple of days of evidence. If the initial doubles test changes nothing, we still have the evidence as to why the entire Uber list is there. I think even doing it for the lulz, just to see what happens, is totally worth it. We don't have to be all political about this.

Then again, if a short test is conducted on a single object, that would be rather counterproductive to the point of testing, wouldn't it?

Actually, I could have posted this in any competitive discussion forum at all and have it make some sense.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This has been decided. Berry Juice WILL be tested as soon as it is implemented on Shoddy Battle. However, if it becomes obvious that it is broken in the opinion of a number of experienced battlers (list to be decided on and populated later), it will be banned, similar to what happened with Deoxys-S in OU. Otherwise, it will be up for a full vote at the end of the testing period.

Once Berry Juice has been decided on, tiering decisions regarding Suspect Pokemon will begin.

 

[Mattman324]

Look, in Gen 3, where the walls were less powerful (imagine this metagame without Munchlax or Gligar...), we had an item that was MORE useful then the berry juice: The Sitrus Berry. Maybe, if it is _slightly_ dominating, (which it will be.) whatever was allowed in advanced should be allowed here.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

In Gen 3, Item Clause was enabled. If that's what it takes to balance Berry Juice, then I'd rather ban it than impose such a wide restriction on the metagame.

 

[Bologo]

Also, Sitrus Berry was banned in ADV LC anyway.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Not true. ADV LC permitted Sitrus Berry because it implemented Item Clause. If it takes forcing Item Clause in order to balance Berry Juice, then I'd sooner ban Berry Juice.

 

[MegaKick]

although little cup has a lot of things to test (gligar/misdreavus/machop), I feel like we can't rush this. I never would have thought murkrow broken if there was only theorymon.

 

[Dubulous]

although little cup has a lot of things to test (gligar/misdreavus/machop), I feel like we can't rush this. I never would have thought murkrow broken if there was only theorymon.

i don't think we'll be testing machop very soon as it's most effective set (choice scarf) is easily countered/revenged.

edit: that's exactly what i meant, thanks.

 

[Heysup]

i don't think we'll be testing machop very soon as it's most effective set (choice band) is easily countered/revenged.

lol?...I hope you meant Choice Scarf.

Anyway, I think that Berry Juice will be banned within the first couple days its available. Every Pokemon with Recycle will be banned, every Pokemon with Dragon Dance will also likely be banned. Even stuff like Agility + Swords Dance or Nasty Plot will be banned, likely. Wynaut will probably even get banned.

I think it's brokeness will be obvious quite quickly.

 

[Erazor]

Theorymon much, Heysup?

I don't play little cup yet, but you should definitely give berry juice a test.

 

[Hipmonlee]

How hard is it to 2hko by hitting with a weaker move on your first attack and a stronger one on your second?

It seems to me that 2hkos are still plausible, just probably not from choice users..

Then again I havent played lc dp, but it seemed like this might be something that could easily have been missed.

Have a nice day.