Non-official BH7 Suspect #7: Sleep Clause Voting

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E4 Flint

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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BH7 Suspect #7 - Sleep Clause (Voting)
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This is the official thread containing all the votes for the BH Gen 7 Suspect on Sleep Clause, as seen from here.

Voting Specifics: should be simple and just like before -
  • Procedure:
    1. Go here, and click on "Post new thread" on the right hand side
    2. Title your thread "BH7 Suspect 7 Sleep Clause" or anything similar
    3. In the body of your post, put your vote. You may vote IMPLEMENT/IMP or DO NOT IMPLEMENT/ DNI.
      Here is a sample post**:
      Sleep Clause- IMP
      Click to expand...
      • For this suspect, I'd also be interested to know your reasons why, so you can post them in the body of your vote
    4. If you wish to participate in the Voter Alt Competition, also add your suspect alt name to the post
    5. Hit "Create thread". The deadline to vote is March 3, 11:59PM (EST). No votes posted after will be counted
The list of registered voters are as follows:
(Ordered Sequentially from Voter ID)
ElMustacho
a loser
Anaconja
highlighter
morogrim
Chloe
tysequaine
Naoki-sama
Greenheroes
Klang
DarkRisingRay
Magii
Früchte
Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
Dj Breloominati♬
Chessking345
MAMP
PhantomVortex
GL Volkner
Funbot28
Balanced Freakmons
Hassin627
Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)
Willdbeast
DF-Shock
Drachen Schwertkampfer

E4 Flint
A decision will be made when there is a majority of 60%. We have 27 voters*, so that should be 17 votes* either way. Note that I am not allowing abstain as a vote.

Thanks for participating.
(*Subject to change before/after approvals and abstain votes)
(**note that this sample has no ties with my own personal vote)​
 
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Sleep Clause: DNI

After playing a substantial amount of BH over the last few months, I've found myself finding sleep as less of a problem for the metagame than I initially believed. While I'm unsure of whether sleep is something that should be addressed, I am strongly against the notion that a sleep clause is the optimal solution here.
 
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Sleep Clause - Implement IG
Its better than nothing, even though I would prefer a ban on sleep moves instead. Sleep Clause gives the player some wiggle room to avoid getting sweeped by certain sleep users although it could mean they can get sweeped by another attacker the mon that is asleep is supposed to check. Overall assuming that a sleep ban suspect is not coming I guess this is ok.
Alt used - Free Spore
 
do not implement

edit: also narcolespy

Sleep Clause means well, but it's really only a patching up to the problem of sleep in general: Spore and Lovely Kiss disables potential checks to mons, which I find to be the real uncompetitive aspect of sleep. Oftentimes I don't find myself to have multiple of my mons slept, in fact.
 
IMPLEMENT Sleep Cause

I want keep sleeping competitive (like any coverage move) without the snowball effect (You sleep once, you can sleep all the pokemon because you are faster).
With the sleep clause, you can bring your check more safety if one of your mon is sleeping.

Spyro Bandicoot
 
DO NOT IMPLEMENT

Sleep Clause in the ladder has done nothing but exacerbate the issues sleep has had; abusers like PH Xern/Gigas, MMY, etc. Don't need more than one mon to be asleep at a time, because what they're doing is giving themselves a single turn to set up in most cases, or just kill the sleeping opponent in others. Once this happens, they're free to either sweep or continue sleeping opposing mons as the one they've previously slept has fainted.

Sleep Clause effectively kills the sleep spam playstyle, but teams that relied on putting everything to sleep hardly prospered anyway, because they're too focused on spreading sleep and not enough on dealing damage.

The bigger problem is the combination of Spore and Lovely Kiss in the metagame. Spore is hardly am issue, because while it alone makes Safety Goggles a viable item, Safety Goggles hard counters it unless the mon is running Knock Off, which reduces their general effectiveness. Lovely Kiss, however, turns these sleep management strategies into liabilities. Together, Spore and Lovely Kiss make sleep strategies much more difficult to prepare for, which is when people get overwhelmed by the strategy.

BAN Lovely Kiss


also SpayedAndNeutered is the #1 alt
 
Sleep Clause- IMP

I want sleep clause because sleep itself is too powerful and relies too much in the luck and not in the skill of the player.
 
Sleep clause - implement

I've been a fan of a potential clause for a while and I think the clause meta is healthier to play in. It contains sleep a bit but doesn't take it completely out of the game, which I think is good. Also, the points I made in this post in the suspect thread reflect my thoughts.

Suspect alt - zoosporangium (its a long and neat word with a Z in it and also makes you think of spore. what more could you ask for lol?)

Edit: typo in alt name
 
Sleep Clause - IMPLEMENT

My reasons have already been discussed in great detail in the relevant threads. The short version is that sleep is uncompetitive in some situations.
 
Implement sleep clause

I don't think it completely solves the problem but it mitigates it at least

Alt name: angry spam
 
Sleep Clause - Do Not Implement

While Sleep is definitely splashable, it has a plethora of both checks and counters that are, themselves, common enough to make Sleep ineligible for the "Requires unique preparation" guideline. Many of the same tools that can be used to stop most forms of sleep (goggles, magic bounce, grass types) are already powerful in their own right, as goggles is splashable, while Magic Bouncers and Grass Types require the opponent to either run niche items to land their sleep moves consistently, or risk the possibility of failing to hit even Mons which aren't immune, and in a format like BH, one cannot afford to miss a turn, lest they get K.O.'d (Same applies for Magic Bounces/Goggle users, the Sleep-Sweep Mon won't know which of your Pokes actually has Goggles or Magic Bounce, since these abilities aren't broadcasted like Fairy/Dark Aura).

There's also the issue of Imposter. Whether it be using a Pikachu and gaining x1.5 offenses, or using Chansey and gaining x1.75-x2 defenses (accounting for both HP and Eviolite) in addition to any boosts the target mon may have acquired prior to the Transformation, there are very few ways to actually counter this ability, even if you know the set you're playing against. x4 Contrary Mewtwo Y, for instance will at least 2 shot (factoring Unaware) anything that opposes it, and while Spectral Thief may slow it down, it won't deal nearly enough damage to kill, since Mewtwo Y's only weakness (low defenses), gets patched by Chansey and Eviolite. When placed in situations like these, the only answer is to either resort to extreme gimmicks (FEAR, for instance), Destiny Bond, or use Unaware or Sash + Sleep. If ever Imposter had solid reasons not be banned, implementing a Sleep Clause would negate all of them, because as it stands, outside of desperate kamikaze tactics, there's no reliable way to ensure that a player's "Improofing" methods actually stick, and don't just force a switch so they can come back with more tools to play with. If Sleep as it exists gets killed, then Imposter should go down with it to ensure the meta stays competitive.

With that said, I think that Electrify should at least get suspected, as, while it may not be splashable, the Pokemon that benefit from it (Prankster Steels/Volt Absorb Deoxys), become invincible with this move. This, more than sleep--requires unique preparation, and this problem should be killed while it's still in its early stages. As it stands, Electrify functions as Wonder Guard-lite, and just like Its more broken counterpart, It too, deserves to be banned.
 
Sleep Clause- Imp

I think that out of all my games, sleep Clause only mattered in five of them, but I think that the meta was too focused around it before the suspect. Many people brought up good points in the thread, but I won’t repost them here. Suffice it to say that imo sleep needs a nerf, and this solution feels better than a sleep ban.

Sorry for taking so long I forgot this existed
 
Sleep Cause -> DO NOT IMPLEMENT

I vote against the Sleep Cause.
I think adding a sleep cause can make bulky/balance PH users like Regigigas and Xerneas much more useless. It impairs whole archetypes. On the other hand, several other pokémon will remain dangerous and adding a sleep cause helps nothing in the fight against them: Adaptability Mega Mewtwo X, Specs Aerilate Booburst Mega-Rayquaza still are free to nuke everything in their path, Contrary is even more free to spam and snowball through entire teams and, people can't use sleep anymore as a last resort to buy time against Pokémon like Entrainment Normalize Mega-Gengar, or a Contrary Sweeper itself preventing them from destroying their entire/rest of the team. Sleep does a lot of utility and good stuff in BH, with so many powerhouses out there and set up sweepers they will be "more free" to do their jobs.
There are some top tier abilities like Magic Bounce, Poison Heal and Misty Surge that i think are pretty enough to handle the possible "sleep spam problem" and, adding to this, Electric Surge, Safety Googles and grass types like Ferrothorn (which is viable in some teams) are always good options. Also, Prankster Spore spam is not used anymore due to Dark types being immune to Prankster and priority blocking abilities.
 
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