Project Break This Team (Week 42)

New Standards are up and Voting is Closed. I'll post the new team momentarily
Posting Standards Cores and Voting
  • Meme Core's or 4 super effective moves Mega + Healing wish user are not acceptable outside of joke Weeks.
  • Replays are encouraged but not mandatory however Core's posted must be viable with decent explanation's of how they work against the team. This is a solid example as it explains how it makes plays vs the team while being a proven core in the meta. This works to. Consider these the quality standard.
  • If your using Niche stuff such as scarf Garde or anything D rank you'll need to demonstrate its effectiveness.
  • When you place your 2 votes a small explanation for each is required even if its just 1 sentence.
Discussion
  • During this part of the week Cores are not posted but instead we discuss how a team works and what it struggles against. Take ABR stall. It hates fairies but it does not auto lose to them, you need to explain what it actually takes to beat the team etc
  • Same Standards as above apply. Make sure you explain things well
  • Buddying up with someone to test the team or review replays and explain results before posting Cores is encouraged as you can actually see if your proposed core works before posting it. If AM or bludz come in here and rip your core to shreds you only have yourself to blame. Remember even if you fail you can still detail what you learn't


Voting is over for the week and We have a new Hall of famer to our list. Despite the new changes about to be implemented nothing takes the luster out of your win Congrats to paper dreams for winning with his Mega latias + Keldeo Core

Voting
Core 1 -0
Core 2 -0
Core 3 -4
Core 4 -1
Core 5 -1
Core 6 -6


For This week I have again without a semblence of originality raided the Team sample thread but this team is a gem and I think a good oppurtunity to try out the new system. Its a Stall team built by the recently retired Subjugator and unlike other stall teams doesn't use mega sab and thus lacks the glaring fairy weakness many modern Stall teams have. Instead its built around Mega Venusuar, Rhyperior and Defensive volconian in an attempt to exploit the perceptions many have about stall to get wins.

rhyperior.gif
venusaur-mega.gif
chansey.gif
volcanion.gif
clefable.gif
tentacruel.gif


Sets
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 212 HP / 44 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 144 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Aromatherapy

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 32 SpD / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 28 SpD / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Acid Spray
- Toxic Spikes

Explanation: Everyone seems to love Specs Volcanion right now because of its lack of reliable counters, scoring 2HKOs on Keldeo and Rotom-Wash. However, I believe that the true beauty of Volcanion lies in a Defensive Role. With high bulk, and moves such as Haze, Will'O'Wisp, Scald, and Flamethrower, Volcanion is a great component on Stall teams, stopping Tangrowth, Keldeo, Jirachi, Bisharp, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Amoonguss, Celebi, Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, and Dragonite in their tracks. I decided to pair Volcanion with Mega Venusaur because they have a great Fire/Water/Grass synergy, with Volcanion beating things that Mega Venusaur loses to such as Mega Gardevoir, Dragonite, and Gyarados. Mega Venusaur in turn is a fat wall that can take on other threats that break past Volcanion like Terrakion, Rotom-Wash, and offensive Electric-types like Thundurus. After that I put on Hippowdon to stand a chance against Bisharp, and Mega Charizard X, but then I decided against that for Rhyperior because of the fact that it doesn't help Excadrill win, and looks cooler, and is better at taking physical hits. After this I added Chansey for that fatness and Aromatherapy support. Then I added Unaware Clefable to ensure that I don't die to setup if Volcanion dies before it uses Haze. Clefable also has backup Heal Bell and Wish support. I decided at first to add Latios because of its neutrality to rocks, and I thought this team needed some offensive backbone, but it's lack of bulk left me hanging a lot, so I went for Tentacruel instead.
 
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Begin Discussion: Since this is a new concept I'll explain. For the first 2 or 3 days of the week Cores cannot be posted. Instead you'll discuss the teams Weakness's, How the team being broken works and if you want buddy up with someone to test ideas and just learn about the team. At the end of the discussion period then you can post core. The new Thread rules are in the OP as well as in the post above this one so Read them. I will be enforcing the new standards as will my Co-hosts and the Mods.

Anyway Enough I say enjoy and Get posting. BTW give a warm welcome to our new Co-host Sobi He's a little busy ATM but once he's free he'll be making regular contributions to the thread. :D

Discuss the team now
 
This team is completely grounded which is kind of baffling to me. Any offensive grounds are gonna be majorly problematic for this team, particularly Excadrill.

I don't see much form of offensive pressure or momentum grabbing either so offensive teams will have an easy time dictating the flow of the game. This is further emphasized by the lack of Spikes to wear down teams, where TSpikes aren't going to excel in this role. No real counterplay to Taunt either, hello Mew

Major issues with common mons used to threaten stall like LO Torn, Gardevoir (though its not a studly stallbreaker any more) and Manaphy, let alone nukes like Medicham.

I don't think people are going to have a very difficult time breaking this team. Loses to Sableye Stall too.
 
I actually Dont think manaphy is that threatening to the team unless it is Carrying Psychic but that is rare right now. Gardevoir can put in Work to but doesn't auto win either. Your right about Grounds tho. Biggest threats to the team right now on paper anyway are Excvadrill, Garchomp and Phsycic Diancie as none really need to set up to do decent dmg. Infact Phychic type moves are fantastic against most of the team since once you've lured either tenta or Venu to there grave they would be forced into chansey to protect there other fairy check which makes for easy double switching into Medicham, Bisharp or Lopunny.

That said I would like to test a core of Psychic Diancie, Bisharp and Scizor to see how it fares because on paper it looks like it monsters the team
 
The typical stallbreaker Manaphy set is RD TG Scald and Psychic so that's the one I was referring to. Unaware Clef needs to run some SpD to attempt to take it on

Bisharp certainly looks like a threat as well. Not really sure what Psychic Diancie is doing for you given the Chansey, Venu shouldn't be coming in unless you end up revealing max Attack ... But then Clef can be used.
 
so looking at this team, what i can gather is that it pretty much folds to psychic types, especially megagross and stuff like zam once chansey has been knocked off.

it also has no ground immunity which is total groan zone, and like bludz mentioned, it's really weak to common breakers like mana/cham/gard etc.

team can also be exploited very easily by spikes creating an easy matchup for stuff like lopunny / bisharp etc
 
Looking Closely at this team it reminds me alot of XY stall teams and the various issue's they had where there very strong verse's some mons/Playstyles (Set up sweepers for example) But completly struggle with others (Offence Psychics, Psychic Coverage in general in this). Of course there's tenta to deal with Hazards but it cant come in on Rocks SD chomp for example who can nail it before going to town on the team. Clef can play Mind game's etc. The teambuilder seems to have overcompensated for fairies yet can still lose to them.

I mentioned Psychic Diancie and while I still want to test it I'm actually thinking a partnership of Latis + Offencive ground with hazard/Status support is probably the worst nightmare this team can face. Sub Encore Lopunny is another interesting one.

I'll reply tommorow but would anyone be interested in testing some cores out?
 
What does rhyperior do that defensive lando doesn't? IMO it would make the team a lot better. Gets rid of the excadrill problem, still checks birds, and also helps with Sd grounds like Chomp and Lando.

Anyways, i'll test the team with lando>rhyperior
 
This team gets boned by pretty much any powerful ground type like sd eplate landot, subsd chomp can dominate after clef takes some chip (rly easy to chip unaware clef), drill. Also, most offensive psychic types like mmeta and megacham own this team with their STAB moves pretty easily. TBH, this build is really weak to common breakers and prolly needs like rhype swapped out for drill and another mon swapped out for a better pinsir check
 
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littlelucario said:
rhyperior means the team doesnt get 6-0'd by pinsir. Will edit the thoughts that I was thinking of before.
Click to expand...

Rhyperior still has a 50% chance to lose

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 294-346 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Whereas Lando always lives a hit

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but yeah i could see how talonflame or zardx 6-0's without rhyperior
 
This team also has major problems in being so reliant on wish passing. If the opponent has anything to stop clefable from wishing, the other members get worn down very fast. The team has far too many mons that don't have any recovery.

Also a whole slew of mons like mew, dugtrio, basically anything with taunt, manaphy, spinblockers, etc put in ridiculous amounts of work against this team.

Mew basically 6-0s this team with little to no support lol not a lot to say.

Specifically discussing dugtrio, sub sets are a huge menace to chansey, and with spikes + sr if paired with a spinblocker, it's basically a click x matchup.
 
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The team overall does work and can put it play just that the majority of its meta answers are 1 offs without clefs wish support or role condensation provided by chansey. This leaves the team very susceptible to double predictions and lure moves from stuff like psychic diancie. I also question the use of tenta over say starmie or skarm as a hazard remover.

Starmie can force medicham and other slow megas out even with a defensive set while skarm protects against grounds and diancie.

Any reason for tenta?
 
hi, this team is really weak to bisharp, rain dance psychic manaphy, offensive lando-t to an extent / swords dance earth plate lando-t and swords dance ground-types, earthquake spammers like exca in sand, and a lot more other mons that i won't go into too much detail with cuz they've been already mentioned. of course this team can be improved a bit to counter the above pokemon. the first thing imo is to find a ground resist or immunity because that's mandatory on like nearly every ou team. i feel inclined to take out rhyperior for some reason but it was the first pokemon subjugator put on the team so i'm guessing it's the main mon on this team so replacing it wouldn't really be ideal. i'd like to know what changes you guys would suggest though :)
 
At a glance this team kinda folds to a lot of stuff. Teams which utilise slow VoltTurners alongside powerful wallbreakers really take their toll. In addition, its relince on the easily-pressured Tentacruel to clear hazards combined with its general lack of offensive presence or any kind of wincon just gives the team a hard time versus lots of metagame trends; it folds to powerful Ground-types such as Excadrill, Lando-T, SD Garchomp and Nidoking which are all in favor atm, and given the omnipresence of slow VoltTurn+powerful wallbreaker cores like Rotom-W+Nidoking or Lando-T+Volcanion in the current meta--which the team also folds versus--and Earth Power variants of Volcanion just kinda run through it once Chansey is taken out or weakened substantially. The entire team is grounded and there are no Magic Guard users, meaning that Spikes kinda tears through it if Tentacruel can be pressured (not hard given Black Sludge is its only form of recovery). Adamant Zen Headbutt Mega Medicham does a number on the team if it comes in versus something like Chansey due to how disgustingly slow the team is (nothing exceeds Venusaur's speed tier, which is pretty irredeemable in a meta such as this one especially when teams lack priority) and due to its STABs dealing massive damage to every Pokémon on the squad, and in general any Psychic-types kinda take a dump on it. Reuniclus gets a special mention here as it comes in for free versus literally everything on the team (I calced for all six team members and nothing can net much more than 40% on a high roll versus it when Reuni is at +0) and sets up--meaning that once Volcanion is down to 30-35% or less (Focus Blast KO range) and as such can't use Haze anymore your set--and similarly Mega Metagross gets a free switch-in versus Chansey or Clefable and can score either a kill or at the very least net some v. heavy damage on something every time, although it needs to be careful to keep an eye on the amount of Seismic Toss damage that its taking.

Ultimately I'm gonna need to do some testing to see how many of these weaknesses hold up in practice (I will if I can find the time), but based on what's in the importable and based on the calcs that I've done these are the things that I noticed at a glance.
 
Having used Rhyperior+Grass cores since Aegi was in OU, this team is pretty decent. The awkward thing is your grass mon SHOULD block off ground attacks for you (Ches, Tangrowth are the two I've always found to work best). However, Rhyperior CAN face tank most ground attacks once or twice. You just have to make sure you're getting wishes to him fast and furious.

I think the major issue is using Volcanion over a different water with regen or reliable recovery. At first I thought this was his hard killer to Scizor, who beats most Rhy+Grass cores (Bullet Punch and then bug moves grass, meaning the best you can do is carry fire coverage on Rhy to threaten switches). However, venu's carrying HP Fire and isn't weak to bug so he's got a double coverage there. Volcanion's slot specifically should not be ground weak because the normal core position it takes (Catch all, specifically mega scizor) isn't needed.

Probably obvious for anyone who knows me but I've already experimented with defensive volcanion and came away unsatisified. It has nice raw power but offers literally nothing but offensive presence and a decent defensive typing. So much better off with a steel like skarm here. It would open up avenues for mitigating the ground weakness.

Lastly, I'm not convinced by the chansey set. Even though you have wish, I'd almost drop one of the two attacks and take a second wish just because the team is soooo reliant on getting them. And clefable's aren't really all that helpful to a bulk monster like rhyperior or venusaur-m. Wish passing is a major opportunity cost and very predictable so you want to maximize your reward for a successful wish.

Anyways. I always like to look at defensive teams for improvement/ideas. Breaking this team won't be too much of a struggle. The entire team just kinda cries if it faces physical momentum teams. Venu, Rhyperior, and Volcanion ALL need to return fire to maximize their use since they don't have recovery (Aka 'long term bulk'). They rely on having that damage come out in short 1 or 2 turn trades to completely bone the opponent with raw short term power. Then you're supposed to play slow for a few turns and position a wish to the one that just broke a mon. If you get something like landorus, especially a knock off variant, and just keep spamming u-turn into a decent rock resist/neutral threat [manaphy?] (or regen like TornT) the team is going to fall apart.

It looks like a fun tank team, but the team's got 0 ability to function under pressure from physical mons.
 
Surprised how no1 talked about Kyurem-Black and it's 3 attacks roost set which really makes the team struggle. How Rhyperior gets OHKOed by Ice Beam. Clef can't switch in cause it gets 2HKO'ed along with Mega Venusaur by Ice Beam. Kyurem-B also can OHKO Tentacruel after rocks with fusion bolt. And Volcanion gets 2HKO'd by Earth Power. The only wall to dis is chansey which gets 3HKO'd by Kyu-B'S Fusion Bolt but only having that to check Kyu-B ain't dat great since ur gonna have to consistently go into it while letting it get wore down.

Calcs and Stuff:12 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 216 Def Tentacruel: 322-380 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 196-231 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 585-689 (137.9 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 32 SpD Volcanion: 255-302 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Etc.
 
Most of the time chansey is an acceptable answer to Kyub for stall. There's not a lot in the entire tier that likes Kyub so it's unlikely you'll normally find a better counter on stall than Chansey. There's not much on the team Kyub gets a free unpunished switch in on outside Tentacruel so it isn't like it gets free reign. And if you don't clear tenta's spikes first, it won't be able to enjoy the long term sweep Kyub likes vs stall. If the toxic spikes get down, kyub may be forced to take multiple attempts at it which could lead to residual rock damage and it still won't penetrate chansey well.

I don't think Subjugator will have had too many issues with Kyub.
 
Lack of steel (huge red flag that I'm surprised nobody mentioned or what I saw at least), lack of ground immunity, a stall team with no real definitive win condition, no trapper (basically a requirement now for an effective stall team). Lots of problems as mentioned above in the previous points. There's also nothing exactly capitalizing on the Toxic Spikes for a hazard that is already specific and somewhat easy to remove, nothing really defining about it. For example due to the lack of said trapper a Lati can come in and remove them easily. I can go into some of the finer details of how this team wasn't exactly well thought out based on composition or description but most of it has been covered more or less, some points I'd stress more than others, but it's not really a RMT and the thread isn't suppose to be as such.

Any generally effective Bulky Offense will be able to handle this team perfectly fine, even more so if it includes Spikes. One of the biggest issues with Tentacruel as a remover is that it necessitates a lot of team support for what's already suppose to be a support mon. This means that overtime the stall user will have tons of stress to maintain Wish support so that Tentacruel doesnt succumb to Spike + SR Damage. You'll end up playing this team more in the hands of the opponent due to the necessity to keep up with their rhythm, stall teams like this end up doing just that and they're easy to break as such. Overtime your win condition, assuming it's something more in line of a balance breaker, will end up winning the game.

Everything else that can exploit this team has been mentioned I think. In the long run this can be used as a foundation for something but for the time being it isn't a particularly effective team or at least in the realm of going up against an above average player.

I'm more interested to see if anybody uses the buddy system to demonstrate how the team plays out and notice some of the points here and up above. It's more of an eye opener especially if you're new to stall I think than just "Manectric + Elektrike breaks the core for the 4th week in a row jajajaja". I do like the direction this thread took btw.
 
Just gonna state my thoughts here:
1) No Pursuit Trapper
Unless I'm wrong, Stall teams ( think GothStall and Weavile Stall ) thrive on having 5 team members to wall everything while the few that can break through are trapped / crippled by Goth and Weavile. Since this team doesn't have that, it's gonna have a hard time against powerful hitters unless the other Stall who can just sac 1 mon and kill the threat.

2) No reliable recovery
Stall mons rely on recovery to not be able to get blown back easily. Only Wish support isn't going to cut it. Plus, Mega Venusaur gets worn down by hazards, burns, switching into stuff while Synthesis gets nerfed by Sand.

3) Lack of hazard deterrant
Coupled with (2), the team loses health very quickly. Tentacruel gets pressured by almost all Rocks setter too. It also takes damage from Spikes.

4) Grounded mons
Probably the most obvious issue since nothing can really take an Earthquake comfortably.
 
Meh for your first point, you should slash pursuit trapper with win condition. You should have one or the other. Probably not both. Often you can justify something like Slowbro-M with CM or just a bulky sweeper (I think early editions of mega sable had CM?).

And we haven't even started with stallbreakers like Medicham w/Zen Headbutt, Hera-M and Gard. While gard doesn't have the best time with this team, Mhera will run this team dry as will Zen Headbutt Zam. Fight/Psychic coverage is devastating to this team.
 
I'm available tonight west Australia time if anyone wants to buddy up to test a few core ideas to see how they hold up. Pm me if interested.

Most issues have been covered with the team but 1 more is very apparant an overreliance on clef to both keep the team alive and check set up sweepers. Luring it in with say soft sand sd lando T can blow a game right open and eliminate the teams ability to perform double switches. This also makes the job of say CM mega latias or clef a lot easier. And I want to test it.

Any takers
 
Idk if it was explained in the new rules or if I wasn't clear when I was on my usual gibberish of grammatically incorrect rant. I got asked just now to clarify on some stuff about what my idea was so I'm gonna pass it on in case any confusion from what seems like an idea that has been adopted now for the thread.
FrozenCold: for the buddy system
FrozenCold: we basically just test the cores
FrozenCold: vs any team
FrozenCold: rite?
+AM: you would just use some teams with the intended cores against the team being subject to being broken
+AM: that is my idea but I don't run the thread
FrozenCold: so use core vs team that's being broken down?
+AM: has to be meta viable obviously
+AM: yeah
+AM: the core would be in your team
+AM: the idea is you would use mutliple teams like 3 to test not just one replay
+AM: to get a different feel for how the core blends with the team against the team to be broken
FrozenCold: so say like the 1st replay
FrozenCold: is the core vs team broken down
FrozenCold: then 2nd is core vs
FrozenCold: standard ou team
FrozenCold: or something like dat
FrozenCold: would dat work?
+AM: naw more like
+AM: 1st team has core in vs team broken down, 2nd team has core in but is different archetype mons around it / archetype vs team broken down
FrozenCold: o so basically the same core on the replays
+AM: yes
FrozenCold: but different playstyles
+AM: but different teams
+AM: yeah
FrozenCold: o_k
+AM: so you can't just get away with "this core breaks it down" but doesnt take into account building a team for the meta
+AM: like with the meme manectric
+AM: so like
+AM: for example
+AM: medicham and thundurus / 4 hyper offense mons vs team broken down
+AM: then
+AM: medicham and thundurus / 4 balance mons vs team broken down
+AM: or just find the core you think works best in testing
+AM: it can always be something you find out
+AM: like say the first m-cham team you found thundurus / kyurem-b to be better then you would post that core and demonstrate it
FrozenCold: better than the core u thought of posting?
+AM: I can c/p this convo idk if other people don't get that maybe it'll help
+AM: yes
+AM: exactly
+AM: so it goes beyond the scope of theorymonning while applying some practical use to it
FrozenCold: if we post replays we won't need alike a paragraph explanation of the core?
FrozenCold: y/n?
FrozenCold: like*
+AM: well yes you wouldn't fortunately lol you can just talk about how the core actually breaks the team down and people will be able to see it or dispute it w/e
+AM: does it make sense
FrozenCold: ya
+AM: ok cause idk you might've not been the only one who had that question
+AM: so figured I could just clarify on thread what I meant originally
FrozenCold: It would be a bit reassuring
 
Just note that buddying and replays are not mandatory but are strongly recommended especially if you're posting something unusual. Think of it as a shield against scolding from AM . I'll Post some guidelines but AM summed it up nicely

Alternatively if you can't find a buddy you could always just play the team being broken in high ladder or a tournament and gauge ideas from that.

Anyway we have 1 more full day of discussion so keep the posts coming.

I'm at work but if someone could test SD soft sand Rocks lando + psychic mega diancie I would be a very happy man.
 
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