Breaking Down the Walls Project [Read post #129]

[Jimera0]

comments in bold

By "beat the majority of walls", do you mean anything more than 50% of walls? Or are we looking at a general ~75% definition of majority? I guess in common speech we all think we know what it means, but some Pokemon might make the cut if they only need to beat one over half of the walls.

Yeah I agree that it's too vauge. However, we'll probably need to be a bit less exclusive with stallbreakers than the wallbreakers, as even the top stallbreakers always have one or two Pokemon they can't beat. Also, I think we need a clearer definition of "beat", seeing as a stallbreaker doesn't necessarily have to KO the wall to "beat" it. Simply preventing it from doing anything can be enough (taunt preventing it from passing wishes or setting up hazards for example). A rewording is certainly in order.

Second, I might be confused. Are we talking Wallbreakers or Stallbreakers? You used the term "stallbreaker" a few times last post and it's easy to understand how they'd be mixed up.

We're onto Stallbreakers now, however the discussion on the last voting period doesn't have to come to a dead stop now; indeed, I WANT people to discuss Haxorus, Dragonite and Hydreigon as we'll be voting on them again alongside the Stallbreakers. I was also saying that if people had issues with the little blurbs I had explaining how each Tier 1 Wallbreaker works on the OP that they could post about it. Sorry if it got confusing.

Now, to get things rolling on haxorus, Dragonite and Hydreigon. First off, here's the criteria they're being judged on:

Tier 1 Wallbreaker: A Pokemon that can break past the vast majority of walls singlehandedly. The few defensive counters of these wallbreakers are also taken down after minimal residual damage or just a little bit of luck. It must be able to break through multiple walls in a match.

Haxorus: My original worry with this guy being Tier 1 was that he couldn't take hits from defensive mons, but a little bit of work showed this to not be true. Skarmory's BB did something like 40% (I'm not bothering calculating it again). He is revenge killed easily still, but that's not supposed to be taken into account unless it directly affects its wallbreaking potential. However, a couple new calculations have revealed a couple worrying stats with regards to Haxorus's wallbreaking abilities.

At +2 with a Lum Berry, Haxorus does 40-47% to Skarmory with Outrage. The issue with this is that it's never going to 2HKO Skarmory with leftovers as long as it uses Roost. Now, it can smash it if it dares to switch in, but 1 on 1 Skarmory is going to win when Haxorus starts hitting itself in confusion after a while. Still, this does fall under the "taken down after minimal residual damage" clause so Haxorus should still be ok. But does this, combined with its only decent bulk still leave it in a good enough place to qualify for a top tier wallbreaker? I say yes, if only just barely.

Dragonite: Ok, here I'm going to make one hell of a hard sell for this bad boy's inclusion. Just take a look at this set;

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Nature: Lonely/Naughty
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Now look at the calcs for this thing.
Outrage vs. Chansey (OU Wish): 47.01 - 55.39%
Outrage vs. Deoxys-D (OU Toxic Staller): 47.36 - 56.25%
Draco Meteor vs. Vaporeon (OU Wish Support): 55.29 - 65.44%
Outrage vs. Vaporeon (OU Wish Support): 53.13 - 62.41%
Draco Meteor vs. Vaporeon (OU Hydration Wall): 55.29 - 65.44%
Outrage vs. Vaporeon (OU Hydration Wall): 53.13 - 62.41%
Outrage vs. Blissey (OU Support): 63.02 - 74.36%

You get the idea. Here are some things it almost has difficulty with.
Outrage vs. Heatran (OU Offensive [Air Balloon] [Flash Fire]): 36.53 - 43.34% (Just bust the balloon with DM as it switches in, EQ KO)

Draco Meteor vs. Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support): 42.79 - 50.67% (A little prior damage and it's down after DM followed up by Outrage, can't outspeed)
Outrage vs. Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support): 38.51 - 45.49%

Draco Meteor vs. Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck): 42.78 - 50.8% (Ok it has trouble with this one. But seriously, it's Porygon 2 and it won't take much prior damage to do it in)
Outrage vs. Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck): 36.09 - 42.78%

Outrage vs. Dusclops (OU Defensive): 43.66 - 51.76% (high as hell chance to 2HKO after rocks).

And those are the things it has the most trouble with. All RU, all 2HKO'd with a little prior damage. Pretty top tier I'd say! And unlike Salamence, Dragonite will actually lure IN Steels, instead of scaring them out, making it great for clearing the way for something that has trouble with them. So yeah, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it can't do it.

Hydriegon: Using Pocket's set from post #44, which actually is on site believe it or not.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 104 Atk / 240 SpA / 164 Spe
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def) Naive, needs the power.
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

*Looks at Dragonite's damage output for Chansey, the Hydreigon's much lower attack stat*
Uh oh, this is going to be walled by that particular blob isn't it...

Outrage vs. Chansey (OU Wish): 36.36 - 43.03%

Uh yup. It'd take a lot of hazards and spikes to guarantee the 2HKO there. But it does perform better against everything else.... though overall still worse than Dragonite. Maybe it IS just short of being a Tier 1 Wallbreaker. If it has like, 3 layers of hazards THEN it does fine, but without that, there's a fair bit of stuff that can take a few hits. Here's some raw calculations:

Calcs

Outrage vs. Chansey (OU Wish): 36.36 - 43.03%
Draco Meteor vs. Chansey (OU Wish): 26.13 - 30.82%
Outrage vs. Chansey (OU Counter): 36.36 - 43.03%
Draco Meteor vs. Chansey (OU Counter): 26.13 - 30.82%
Draco Meteor vs. Heatran (OU Offensive [Air Balloon] [Flash Fire]): 41.79 - 49.53%
Outrage vs. Heatran (OU Offensive [Air Balloon] [Flash Fire]): 28.48 - 33.43%
Draco Meteor vs. Dusclops (OU Defensive): 42.6 - 50.7%
Outrage vs. Dusclops (OU Defensive): 33.8 - 40.14%
Draco Meteor vs. Dusclops (OU RestTalk): 42.6 - 50.7%
Outrage vs. Dusclops (OU RestTalk): 33.8 - 40.14%
Outrage vs. Snorlax (OU CurseLax): 46.65 - 55.11%
Draco Meteor vs. Snorlax (OU CurseLax): 39.17 - 46.25%
Fire Blast vs. Heatran (OU Offensive [Air Balloon]): 48.29 - 56.96%
Draco Meteor vs. Heatran (OU Offensive [Air Balloon]): 41.79 - 49.53%
Draco Meteor vs. Deoxys-D (OU Bulky Spiker): 48.68 - 57.56%
Outrage vs. Deoxys-D (OU Bulky Spiker): 41.77 - 49.67%
Outrage vs. Blissey (OU Support): 48.87 - 57.7%
Draco Meteor vs. Blissey (OU Support): 30.81 - 36.55%
Outrage vs. Blissey (OU Wish Support): 48.87 - 57.7%
Draco Meteor vs. Blissey (OU Wish Support): 30.81 - 36.55%
Fire Blast vs. Metagross (OU Stealth Rock [Occa Berry]): 49.17 - 57.96%
Earthquake vs. Metagross (OU Stealth Rock [Occa Berry]): 47.25 - 56.04%
Earthquake vs. Tyranitar (OU Mixed Attacker [Sand Stream]): 49.5 - 58.41%
Outrage vs. Tyranitar (OU Mixed Attacker [Sand Stream]): 44.05 - 52.22%
Earthquake vs. Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive [Sand Stream]): 49.5 - 58.41%
Outrage vs. Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive [Sand Stream]): 44.05 - 52.22%
Earthquake vs. Tyranitar (OU TyraniBoah (SubPunch) [Sand Stream]): 49.5 - 58.41%
Draco Meteor vs. Tyranitar (OU TyraniBoah (SubPunch) [Sand Stream]): 47.02 - 55.69%
Draco Meteor vs. Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck): 49.73 - 58.55%
Outrage vs. Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck): 28.34 - 33.68%
Draco Meteor vs. Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support): 49.54 - 58.78%
Outrage vs. Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support): 29.95 - 35.36%

Hide

It pretty handily 2HKOs everything else though, especially with some rocks. I'm not sure if it's enough though, as being walled by Chansey is a pretty big deal.

Anyway, there's some material for you guys to use to discuss this.

 

[Wobbanaut]

According to me Haxorus is a tier 1 stall breaker but not a wall breaker it has trouble getting through any type of steel not getting hit super effectively by EQ and Balloon tran and most of them you see are choiced. The only steel Scarf outrage does more than 50% to is lucario who is not commonly seen in the metagame the reason why I called it a Stallbreaker is that even the Bulkiest of Walls(except steels) have trouble taking countinous outrages by the time Haxy is done the opponents wall will be so severely neutered that a another sweeper won't have any problem dealing with the opponent I cant really say much about Hydra and Nite because I don't use them but my most sucessful team in he OU metagame was 1 with a Choice Scarf Haxorus( keep in mind that I'm not a very good battler)

 

[Jimera0]

According to me Haxorus is a tier 1 stall breaker but not a wall breaker it has trouble getting through any type of steel not getting hit super effectively by EQ and Balloon tran and most of them you see are choiced. The only steel Scarf outrage does more than 50% to is lucario who is not commonly seen in the metagame the reason why I called it a Stallbreaker is that even the Bulkiest of Walls(except steels) have trouble taking countinous outrages by the time Haxy is done the opponents wall will be so severely neutered that a another sweeper won't have any problem dealing with the opponent I cant really say much about Hydra and Nite because I don't use them but my most sucessful team in he OU metagame was 1 with a Choice Scarf Haxorus( keep in mind that I'm not a very good battler)

Errr no one was suggesting Scarf Haxorus as a wallbreaker. SD Haxorus 2HKOs everything in OU with a Life Orb and an SD. Let me post the calcs...

Outrage vs. Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive): 52.39 - 61.97%
Brick Break vs. Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive): 44.01 - 52.09%
Earthquake vs. Forretress (OU Physically Defensive): 57.62 - 67.79%
Outrage vs. Forretress (OU Physically Defensive): 51.41 - 60.73%
Outrage vs. Metagross (OU Stealth Rock [Air Balloon]): 67.03 - 79.12%
Brick Break vs. Metagross (OU Stealth Rock [Air Balloon]): 56.04 - 65.93%

And those 3 are the ones that take the LEAST damage. EVERYTHING else in OU takes more. Literally NOTHING is living switching into Outage at +2 with Life Orb, except maybe Scizor with BP. Oh wait.

Earthquake vs. Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance): 98.83 - 116.27%
Outrage vs. Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance): 88.95 - 104.94%
Earthquake vs. Scizor (OU Choice Band): 99.12 - 116.61%
Outrage vs. Scizor (OU Choice Band): 89.21 - 105.24%

Nevermind.

EDIT: Sorry that sounds more condescending than I intended. It's getting late and I'm getting tired, please forgive me. Point stands though; Haxorus has no trouble getting through Steels.

 

[alexwolf]

I don't even get why are we doubting Haxorus as a wallbreaker.
If CB Outrage is not enough for you (Rivalry Haxorus has a 5.86% chance to 2hko Shed Shell Skarmory after SR, and Shed Shell on Skarmory is a must if u run a stall team, so that Mag cannot break through your defenses), then use SD LO, which as Jimera showed 2hkoes Skarmory with a RESISTED physical attack ffs...

 

[Jimera0]

Alright everyone, I've come up with a new definition for tier 1 stallbreaker I think is a little bit better defined.

Tier 1 Stallbreaker: A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset.

If anyone has any issues with this definition, speak now because I'll be opening up nominations by this time tomorrow (assuming I'm not too tired to post from work).

Also, with regards to Haxorus, Dragonite and Hydriegon, no one really seems to want to change their current positioning and I think my calculations kind of confirmed that they're in the right places, so I think I'll scrap the re-vote on them unless I have some people give me a good reason why we should go on with it. I had expected it to be a little more controversial but a few calculations showed pretty clearly that we placed them correctly the first time.

 

[scwizard]

I've found mixed mence to be good against defensive teams. It means that they can't afford to sacrifice a pokemon to avoid putting switch ins into KO range.

Here's the set I use:
Salamence (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

I haven't experienced anyone walling it. It can be easily revenge killed though.

 

[Jimera0]

Alright seems like no one has any objections to the new definition or the decision to leave Haxorus, Dragonite and Hydreigon where they are, so it's time to initiate the next stage of this project!


Nominations for Tier 1 Stallbreakers is now OPEN!

You can nominate as many Pokemon as you like that you think meet this criteria:

Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset.

Please nominate Pokemon only, not individual movesets. We'll be dealing with individual movesets later. You can nominate anything that meets the criteria, even if it only does so with one moveset. It doesn't need to be able to stallbreak in 80 different ways to be nominated, just one.

I'll list the nominees here. I'll be making my own nominations in another post though, to keep this one nice and clean.

Nominees so far:
Sableye
Jellicent
Reuniclus
Mew
Gliscor
Sigilyph
Breloom
Deoxys-D
Whimsicott
Espeon
Xatu
Mandibuzz
Wobbuffet
Jirachi

 

[Pocket]

Sableye is the exemplar of stallbreakers - priority Taunt is a huge selling point. It does not have the best bulk out there, but it's good enough to sponge hits from defensive mons, especially physical attacks after a burn. It does have trouble against Rain Stall, since rain-boosted Scald sucks, but it stallbreaks well otherwise.

Jellicent also deserves a mention, since it is immune to Scald. Its low Speed is off-putting, but it still makes good use of Taunt + Wisp to whittle down wall's HP, with Recover to heal itself. Unlike Sableye, Jellicent's STAB Scald helps dissuade Gliscor and Heatran from blocking Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Reuniclus
Reuniclus completely ignores the residual damage that stall teams use with magic guard, and has recover to regain any health lost from weak attacks. The fastest was to beat stall teams with reuniclus is to do as much damage with the rest of your Pokemon/sac them and have reuniclus left to boost up and slowly run through the opposing team as you can no longer be phazed out. The only things it doesn't like are taunt, perish song and haze, all the other options available to stall teams are not usable.

 

[Harsha]

Mew

Mew can usually take any attack that stall teams have to offer and wreak havoc with moves such as Taunt and Will-O-Wisp. Its base 100 Speed and ability to shut down stall teams with just two moves makes it a great stall breaker because it doesn't even need setup to be effective. Additionally, it prevents opposing stallers from healing themselves, so the power of its attacks is not very important considering the opponent will have to either switch out or lose his or her Pokemon.

 

[CommandurrClowncrete]

Gliscor

Gliscor is an extremely competent stall-breaker, in my opinion. With Poison heal activated, it is impossible to "wear out" gliscor by conventional means like phazing. It can use taunt + toxic to wear down many walls. Constant recovery from poison heal makes it even better.

 

[col49]

Sigilyph

Though it has fallen out of favour, Sigilyph is quite the impediment to any stall team. Magic Guard prevents it from being worn down by residual damage stall teams rely on to wear down their opponents, allowing it to effectively neuter any primary win conditions they might have. Sigilyph can make further use of Magic Guard by pairing it with Psycho Shift, allowing him to pass status ailments off to opponents indefinitely in order to wear them down. Though lacking Taunt, a combination of Cosmic Power, Roost, and reliable recovery in Roost, and respectable 72 / 80 / 80 defenses allow Sigilyph to shrug off uninvested attacks and reliably beat dedicated special walls such as Blissey and Chansey 1v1.

 

[Jimera0]

Alrihgt, time to get this show back on the road. Nominations appear to have dried up, but I have a few to make of my own before we go on.

Breloom:
Breloom is a bit of a hard one to place, sitting somewhere between Wallbreaker and Stallbreaker, but there's no denying how much trouble defensive Pokemon have with it. Anything that can't outspeed it and isn't immune to sleep will fall victim to Spore, and then become set-up fodder for it. Even Pokemon like Skarmory that would normally dominate it become easy prey. After it's put one Pokemon to sleep it can then proceed to demolish the opponent with its massively powerful Focus Punch. Whatever it can't take out with that, it can with Stone Edge. It does have trouble with Celebi and Gliscor though.

Deoxys-D:
Although its stallbreaking sets are rare these days, it is one of the most effective around when it uses it. It's speed combined with taunt, recover and its massive bulk assures that it can prevent all but the very fastest defensive Pokemon from being able to touch it, and then slowly whittle away their health. Sure it then has trouble doing anything ELSE when it runs a stallbreaking set (because then it has no room for hazards or screens), but that's not the purview of this project.

Whimsicott:
The forgotten prankster, Whimsicott has fallen far from the start of OU but it's just as effective at breaking Stall as it ever was. With the fastest taunt in the game (Period!) it can stop absolutely anything from setting up on it (well unless you encounter a Tornadus with Taunt since you won't be likely to be investing in speed, but anyway...). It can then wear the opponent down with Toxic or Leech Seed. Using Leech Seed, Protect, Substitute, Taunt and minimum HP, it can actually become invincible against non-grass types, healing more than it costs using substitute. Certainly an overlooked threat.

Espeon:
Magic Bounce means that walls can't rely on status to take Espeon down, and Morning Sun is a semi-reliable recovery that allows it to stall out their weak attacks. Of course, usually you don't see Espeon in a stallbreaking roll, but it can pull it off. I'm not sure it's tier 1 though, thanks to the prevalence of SS and Drizzle making carrying Sun almost necessary for success.

Xatu:
Despite its lower tiering than Espeon, Xatu is probably better suited to a stallbreaking role, thanks to better defensive typing for against defensive Pokemon and a more reliable recovery in Roost. It can take defensive mon's hits well enough to stall them out with Toxic and Night Shade, and is unable to be statused except via Scald. Still, its true ability is up for debate.

CONCLUSION:
I'll be closing nominations tomorrow... in the meantime, I'd like people to share their reasoning on why or why not these Pokemon belong in Tier 1. I'd like it if we didn't jump into the voting with so little evidence having been presented this time, especially considering a lot of these Pokemon aren't used as often as the wallbreakers were.

 

[alexwolf]

Mandibuzz

Mandibuzz is quite fast for a defensive poke, sitting at 80 base Speed, which means that she can effectively utilize Taunt along with Toxic to great effect. While steel types could be a problem, Mandibuzz can outstall the common defensive Steel types such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress (except from Heatran and Jirachi) since some of them can be slowly killed by BB, because they are hit neutrally by it, or in Skarmory's case, they can be PP stalled.

 

[Jimera0]

Wow I had really hoped for more discussion people. There was a lot more activity for the wallbreaker section of this thread... ah well.

I'll leave nominations tenatively open, but right now what I really want from you people is discussion! Go over the nominees and say your piece about whether or not they deserve to be considered among the best or not! I'll be doing so myself later after I shower and eat (yeah it's noon, rather than immediately doing my morning routine after getting up I came on here, so shoot me for being a lazy ass :P).

So get to it people! I'll be honest and say I don't actually believe all my nominations are tier 1 material; rather, I just wanted to make sure they were discussed (similar to some of my nominations last round). But that kind of goes to waste if no one discusses them right?

 

[doughboy]

I would take Whimsicott off of the stallbreakers list, it can't do crap against most stall teams. A lot stall teams feature a Grass-type to take water type attacks, particularly Ferrothorn for the Spikes and Celebi for Perish Song. Some stall teams feature a Reuniclus of their own to combat these other forms of residual damage. Even Gliscor can take on Whimsicott because Leech Seed does the same amount of damage as Poison Heal restores. Overall Whimsicott isn't getting anywhere on the stall breaking side.

I would nominate Wobbufett as a sort of pseudo stall breaker. There is a reason why a lot of walls make sure they can outspeed max speed timid Wobbufett if they can.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm not such a fan of stall breakers that are prone to Toxic Spikes, as they are very common on stall teams and Pokemon like Jellicent really hate Toxic poison if they plan on staying in for extended periods of time. Of course, this is somewhat offset by utilising taunt to prevent the opposition from recovering health while you continue to do so if they attempt to stall you out. Overall, I find them slightly inferior because of this, although they are still great stall breakers otherwise.

 

[Dracule Mihawk]

I would agree with Pillsbury on the issue of Whimsicott being a stallbreaker. In my experience it is not really a stall breaker per say, rather just a minor annoyance when facing with stall teams. The role of a bulky grass type is better suited to pokemon like Celebi. Whimsicott is still not that strong bulk wise, and all it does is sub then leech. And the occasional status which can get annoying. Many staples of stall teams stop it in its track, Gliscor's poison heal negates leech seed, reuni simply ignores the passive damage. I have just found Whimsicott underwhelming and not really a good stall breaker. I do not think he should be on the list, even though it has its own merits.

 

[TheMexican]

Jirachi
Jirachi is well known for being such a versatile pokemon since gen 3. It has an amazing movepool, a base 100 on every stat making it bulky and fast, resistance to toxic spikes fromits steel typing, it can also run all sorts of different sets from choiced to mixed ones, making it hard to play around. Also having a way to heal himself with wish it can be very annoying to some stall teams by itself.
Just in case nominations are still open.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I don't think I've ever heard of a stall breaker Jirachi? What kind of set were you thinking of? The Sub CM set is prone to phazing and is only really useable in rain so it can't work on every team like the rest of the suggested stall breakers.

 

[TheMexican]

Jirachi @ Expert Belt / Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 128 Atk / 148 SAtk / 232 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Thunderbolt
- Iron Head
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This set isnt mine but It is an example of a mixed jirachi, the speed evs allow it to always outrun adamant acrobat gliscor, iron head has a chance to bring the pink blobs due the high flinch chance, thunderbolt hits skarmory and some water types, psychic is another good stab hitting stuff like tentacruel alittle harder than thunderbolt, which is common on stall teams. Usually with expert belt you could make the opponent think you are a choiced, lure a wall and hit it hard with its respective attack. This is just an example.

 

[dragonuser]

The reason this set is able to so effectively break stall is because it can lure in defensive pokemon and deal a fatal blow to them, leaving them weak enough to be swept by a fellow sweeper late game. Lures like this may not be able to outright destroy every variant of stall by itself, but it is able to easily break the opponents defensive core allowing one of your setup sweepers to cleanly sweep their team.

 

[Tizio Potente Ao]

I tried mixrachi from shakeitup team and i must say he's really so good at breaking stall, he's so unexpected

 

[Jimera0]

@Jirachi discussion:

Honestly I don't really think a lure like that belongs in the Stallbreaker/Wallbreaker thread. These Pokemon shouldn't NEED to rely on the element of surprise. Not to mention that things that resist Iron Head and aren't weak to its other moves wreck that Jirachi, including Heatran who is pretty common on defendsive teams and runs effective stall sets (with specially defensive being one of the most common and one of the least likely to ever give a shit about Jirachi). Vaporeon could probably wall it despite Thunderbolt, seeing as it can take Specs Rotom-W's Volt-Switch. Specially defensive Jellicent is the same deal. Bottom line, it's not good enough to be a top teir wallbreaker and it just doesn't fit the criteria for a stallbreaker. I'll leave it in though anyway.

Now onto the others:

Sableye: Having used Sableye in the role of a stallbreaker quite extensively myself, I can vouch for the bejewled ghost's effectiveness. It can't do anything to Heatran, and has trouble with more offensive versions of Gliscor, but other than those two there really isn't anything on stall that can stop it except maybe Hydration Wall Vaporeon (which beats just about everything anyway). I think it fits the criteria for tier 1 stallbreaker, since I gave the category a little more leeway than the Wallbreaker tier 1.

Jellicent: Basically a slower (counting Prankster), bulkier version of Sableye, that does the job pretty much as well. Almost no defensive Pokemon can KO it and it can use taunt to screw them over entirely. I don't think there'll be a lot of doubt here.

Reuniclus: I've heard arguments that because the CM set can be phazed out that it doesn't count, but I call bullshit on that argument. A stall team won't beat Reuniclus unless they pack something like Sableye, thanks to Magic Guard it'll sweep them as the last Pokemon standing. No, what DOES matter is its vulnerability to taunt. In particular, Jellicent above can really give it trouble, preventing it from boosting or recovering while being able to take unboosted attacks from it, unless you're running Shadow Ball in which case you get walled by a bunch of other stuff. Then there's Deoxys-D, which can do the same deal to you assuming it runs Taunt and some way to hurt you. There are others that resist Psychic and Focus Blast like Slowbro and Slowking, but they can't do anything back so they don't count. Unless I'm missing something I think it works.

Mew: Oh yeah, hears another one Reuniclus can't break through. Mew's stallbreaker set is well known and deadly, sort of an inbetween of Sableye's speedy taunt and Jellicents bulk. As far as defensive Pokemon go, I really don't think there's anything that can beat it. Even Heatran is shaky if Mew opts for an attacking move other than Psychic. I see no reason why it wouldn't be tier 1

Gliscor:
Combining the best aspects of both those immune to passive damage and those with fast taunts, Gliscor seems to be stalls worst nightmare nightmare. Poison Heal means it laughs at attempts to gradually wear it down or status it, and Taunt prevents opponents from recovering or setting up too. It does have one big downfall though; weaknesses to water and ice, bad considering all the bulky waters out there. Just because of that alone I'm not sure it qualifies as tier 1, because it means Vaproeon, Jellicent, Politoed, Swampert and more can beat it, especially in rain. It really is unfortunate, because if it wasn't weak to water it'd probably be the best stallbreaker in the game. As it is, I don't think it qualifies due to the fact it's 2HKO'd by so many defensive Pokemon.

Sigilyph:
Can't honestly say I know enough about this one to give it my vote of confidence, but at a glance it seems to fit the bill. Even Tyranitar is screwed over by Psycho Shift burning it. It's in the same boat as Reuniclus when it comes to Phazing, but thems the breaks eh? Just wait till you're the last mon standing then blow everything out of the water... assuming you don't get taunted. Taunt totally shuts Sigilyph down, and that lone means a lot of defensive Pokemon can beat it. This makes me doubt that it works as a tier 1 stallbreaker. Sure Reuniclus doesn't like taunt either, but it has enough power unboosted to deal with most users of the move anyway. Sigilyph isn't going to be doing much with an unboosted Stored Power on the other hand. I'm currently doubting this one.

Breloom: While whether it is a stallbreaker or wallbreaker is up for debate, I have to say I don't think it matters. Why? It doesn't qualify for either, because it is beaten by too many defensive Pokemon. Celebi and Gliscor beat it handily, as does Xatu. But that's not the real problem; all the Pokemon suggested have issue breaking through some Pokemon. No, the real issue is that due to sleep clause it can't continue to do its job throughout the match. After the opponent sacrifices one Pokemon to sleep the number of defensive Pokemon that can beat it skyrockets. Dragonite if no Stone Edge, Jellicent if no Seed Bomb, Reuniclus no matter what, Skarmory no matter what, Mew, Tentacruel and more. Bottom line, it just doesn't cut it either way.

Deoxys-D:
Only one it can't beat with its stallbreaking set is Tyranitar (who comes in stallish versions, so it counts). It has to look out switching in too of course, as status ruins it, but once its in? No wall is taking it down. A total gimme in my books, unless someone else can prove otherwise.

Whimsicott: No. Too many Pokemon are immune to Leech Seed this generation and it has no healing outside of that. Just doesn't work.

Espeon: Rarely used in a stallbreaking role but I think it might fit the bill. Let me run some calcs... yes, with Reflect it can beat Ferrothorn with HP Fire. Morning Sun might not be the best healing move in this metagame, but its enough for defensive Pokemon. A set with Reflect, Morning Sun, Psychic and HP Fire can beat most defensive Pokemon. The Pink Blobs are going to wall you whatever you do though (I guess you could run toxic but then you'll run out of Morning Sun PP too quickly to beat multiple Pokemon or just get screwed over by Ferrothorn and Forretress instead). Jirachi with Body Slam and Thunder can also screw you over. It's a close call but I ask that you guys don't dismiss it out of hand due to its low defensive stats.

Xatu:
Thanks to Roost, it probably does a better job that even Espeon does. With Toxic, Roost, Night Shade and Reflect / Feather Dance it should be able to defeat almost any defensive Pokemon. It won't be beating Reuniclus though, as it simply won't be able to do enough damage while it just sets up. Other than that, should do the trick 100%.

Mandibuzz: Yeah I think it has the stats for the job, and taunt works great for it. I mean it's nearly as physically bulky as Hippowodon and around as specially bulky as Jirachi (though not both at once obviously), which is clearly really damn impressive. Its typing might not do the trick for some Pokemon, but for defensive mons it works wonders. My issue with it though is that it doesn't have anything along the lines of Night Shade or Seismic toss to do consistant damage with, meaning it'll be having trouble against steel types that resist BB and are immune to toxic. Sure it might manage to stall out one of them, but it needs to be able to do so multiple times throughout the match, and you're likely to get statused by something like Jirachi's Body Slam or Heatran's Lava Plume in the process, making you unable to carry out your role later on. I think it just misses out on the mark, but not by much.

So there you go, there's my opinion on the nominees. I want to hear your opinions too, before we start voting.

 

[TheMexican]

@Jirachi discussion:
Honestly I don't really think a lure like that belongs in the Stallbreaker/Wallbreaker thread. These Pokemon shouldn't NEED to rely on the element of surprise. Not to mention that things that resist Iron Head and aren't weak to its other moves wreck that Jirachi, including Heatran who is pretty common on defendsive teams and runs effective stall sets (with specially defensive being one of the most common and one of the least likely to ever give a shit about Jirachi). Vaporeon could probably wall it despite Thunderbolt, seeing as it can take Specs Rotom-W's Volt-Switch. Specially defensive Jellicent is the same deal. Bottom line, it's not good enough to be a top teir wallbreaker and it just doesn't fit the criteria for a stallbreaker. I'll leave it in though anyway.

I understand what you ean by the element of surprise, however, what I meant is that it can bring walls down by itself, for example, lure a jellicent in with iron head, its a 2hko (148 SpAtk Expert Belt Jirachi (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/32 SpDef Jellicent: 48.02% - 56.93%) after the rocks/iron head damage) while, it most probably do scald/Will-o-wisp, skarmory is pretty much the same, but it has a 68.75% to be OHKO'd after rocks, which either way could be 2hko'd without them, vaporeon is 2hkod after rocks too (148 SpAtk Expert Belt Jirachi (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Vaporeon: 46.65% - 55.29%), of coursae it OHKOs every gliscor with hidden power ice, altho I do agree that it can't do much to heatran other than try to paralyzing it with thunderbolt. Maybe it does need the surprise factor, but I think it still deserves a mention