The Jolly nature is for outrunning all possibly slower Pokemon such as Modest 192 Spe Heatran, and then using Spore to cripple it. Besides, with all the Jolly Scizors going around, I would say this is the primary choice.
I used to utilise a Sigilyph for that express purpose, and also run a Breloom, and in my experience Sigilyph is too conditional a counter. You need to have let Breloom sleep a Pokemon OR be running a Flame Orb/ Psycho Shift set and have the burn activated before switching in, and even then, you can only really counter some standard forms. Sigilyph simply cannot switch into possible Stone Edge swith impunity. The most heavily defensive Sigilyph, the popular Bold Psycho Shift set, gets 2HKOed by Stone Edge, and failing to even outrun Breloom, simply cannot try to PP stall SE with Roost. Other, more offensively orientated Sigilyph, run the risk of being OHKOed upon switching into a Stone Edge. Even Facade affords Breloom the possibility of a 2HKO against all but the most bulky Sigilyph.Definitely seconding Sigilyph as a counter. It's my one and only answer to Breloom and it does an awesome job. If it hasn't been burned, I usually let another one of my pokes take the Spore and then switch in Sigilyph on the sub. From there, you can set up Cosmic Powers with ease (even on Stone Edge because you can Roost before it attacks), and then try to run through it with Stored Power or phaze with Whirlwind.
The problem is that, with team preview, your opponent -knows- that you're running a Sigilyph, and can easily predict the switch in. And even if they fail to, at best, you can force them out once before they start expecting the obvious Sigilyph switch in and predicting with Stone Edge. Certainly, if your opponent's Breloom lacks SE, your Sigilyph works like a charm, but if it packs SE, the switch in is simply too risky. Good players adapt to the circumstances, and one who was actually worth anything would not continue to Focus Punch or Substitute when faced by a Sigilyph specifically equipped to take him on.I don't know what Sigilyphs are unable to outspeed Breloom. Timid Sigilyph only needs to invest 40 evs in Speed in order to outrun Jolly Breloom.
If I see a Breloom on my opponent's team with team preview I usually try to get Sigilyph burned as soon as possible. If that doesn't happen I still switch in after something has been put to sleep. Personally, I have not run into many Breloom that do not sub directly after they Spore. I could see Sigilyph having problems switching directly into a Stone Edge, but even the Brelooms I have run into that don't sub use Focus Punch and even in this analysis, Stone Edge is never the first option. Furthermore, a Breloom that does use Stone Edge after a Substitute IS PP stalled by a faster Sigilyph with Cosmic Power and Roost, with a +1 Sigilyph taking 61.5% maximum on the first non-Roosting Cosmic Power turn from an Adamant Breloom. From there, Sigilyph can just Roost over and over again, taking a maximum of 30.1%, or risk a Cosmic Power in the face of SE's increased critical hit ratio. Even with a critical hit, Stone Edge fails to OHKO on Roosting turns. In addition, Facade does a maximum of 42.8%, easily Roosted off and set up on. The only way Breloom could possibly get through Sigilyph is by using Stone Edge on the switch in, getting 2 consecutive critical hits, or getting two consecutive max damage rolls with Stone Edge, with one of them being a critical hit.
EDIT: I was using an Adamant max attack Breloom and a Timid 252 HP / 56 Def Sigilyph
That literally makes zero sense. If you take a look at any and all other analyses the Checks and Counters sections usually include pokes that might not be able to switch into the opponent on a certain attack, or only counter a specific set, or may be ONLY able to switch in on a certain attack. If the Checks and Counters section had to only include a pokemon that could counter ALL sets then most, if not all, analyses wouldn't even be able to include such a section. Example from the Volcarona analysis.Irrespective, the bottom line is that a 'counter' is, specifically, a Pokemon able to switch into anything a given type can serve up. Sigilyph, plainly, cannot do so to Breloom, and so cannot be regarded as a counter.
In summary, these Pokemon are counters unless they switch into an attack that may or not be carried seeing as how it isn't standard. As for your argument against Sigilyph as a counter in general:<p>Even though Volcarona has great Special Attack and great STAB moves, there are some Pokemon in OU that resist both of them and that can KO the moth in return. Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Heatran, and Terrakion are the most important ones, and they can all give troubles to Volcarona in return. Gyarados has Waterfall, Dragonite and Salamence have either Dragon Tail or very strong physical Dragon STAB moves, Heatran can use Roar, and Terrakion destroys it with STAB Stone Edge. The first three however must first be sure that Volcarona isn't running an offensive set with Hidden Power Rock and the latter two have to be careful about Hidden Power Ground.</p>
I used to utilise a Sigilyph for that express purpose, and also run a Breloom, and in my experience Sigilyph is too conditional a counter. You need to have let Breloom sleep a Pokemon OR be running a Flame Orb/ Psycho Shift set and have the burn activated before switching in, and even then, you can only really counter some standard forms.
You say yourself that Sigilyph not only counters the standard sets, but works like a charm. Furthermore, your main argument against its inclusion as a counter is that it cannot switch into Stone Edge. What about Xatu? It has poorer stats in every category except attack when compared to Sigilyph while having the same type, and yet there was no argument against it as a counter. The other point you bring up is that Sigilyph must have been previously burned, yet you mention Gliscor as a superior counter that must fulfill the same prerequisites seeing as how it cannot simply switch into a Spore before being poisoned.Certainly, if your opponent's Breloom lacks SE, your Sigilyph works like a charm, but if it packs SE, the switch in is simply too risky
... because Xatu wasn't mentioned as a counter in the OP. Why would I argue against Xatu being mentioned as a counter to Breloom, when it wasn't mentioned as a counter?You say yourself that Sigilyph not only counters the standard sets, but works like a charm. Furthermore, your main argument against its inclusion as a counter is that it cannot switch into Stone Edge. What about Xatu? It has poorer stats in every category except attack when compared to Sigilyph while having the same type, and yet there was no argument against it as a counter. The other point you bring up is that Sigilyph must have been previously burned, yet you mention Gliscor as a superior counter that must fulfill the same prerequisites seeing as how it cannot simply switch into a Spore before being poisoned.
From my experience, most Psycho Shift Sigilyphs run a Bold or Calm nature. The OP of the Sigilyph thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79322&page=5) lists Timid as the preferred option over Calm, but similarly does not suggest any speed investment. It's fairly academic, though, and I'll respond specifically to the set you mentioned:Lastly, the standard Sigilyph does run a Timid nature and has enough speed to outrun a Jolly Breloom
Problem is that the setting up will never happen against any experienced Breloom player, because they will know to switch out Breloom if they fail to get in the initial Stone Edge or Facade on the switch. They aren't going to engage you in a PP war, and they aren't going to stick around once you start building up your defenses. Assuming your opponent has let you stall out the PP of Stone Edge and build up your Cosmic Powers, yes he is royally screwed, but this has more to do with the fact that he is either a terrible player or has never encountered PS Sigilyph before.[SET]
name: Cosmic Power
move 1: Cosmic Power
move 2: Stored Power
move 3: Roost
move 4: Psycho Shift
item: Flame Orb
ability: Magic Guard
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def/ 56 Spe
When I did the calculations I accidentally mixed up the Speed and Defense EVs. My bad. Here they are with the corrected values.
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs +1 Sigilyph = 44.25 - 52.29%
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs +1 Roosting Sigilyph = 22.12 - 26.15%
Adamant Breloom Facade vs Sigilyph = 46.26 - 54.59%
Adamant Breloom Facade vs +1 Sigilyph = 30.74 - 36.49%
While Sigilyph may not be able to switch directly into a Stone Edge, it can still beat a Breloom with it by PP stalling out Stone Edge and then setting up enough Cosmic Powers to decimate it. Furthermore, the rest of the opponent's team is then royally screwed as Sigilyph is then completely set up firing of powerful Stored Powers.
Adamant Breloom Stone Edge vs. +0 Sigilyph = 66.09 - 78.16%There is no assurance that you will come out on top whatsoever.
Weird.Lastly, a small distinction but an important one: I commented that PS Sigilyph counters the standard Leech Seed Breloom, not the standard Breloom period. Whilst LS Breloom does not run SE, a good portion of the more offensive variants do.
It's AC or OC at best, since, like Gliscor, there are only a few, situational opportunities where a foe would use Toxic (not that many do anyway). Also, both Gliscor and Breloom recover sufficient damage with just a Toxic Orb, so Leftovers is best left as an OO.For the SubSeed set, leftovers is also viable I think, as since this set is a stall set really, it allows you to switch in on a toxic. Lefties + leech seed is already decent recovery, and if you get the toxic boost, recovery is almost 33%.
Lefties = 6.25%
Leech seed = 12.5%
Toxic heal = 12.5%
Without toxic heal = 18.75% -> 6.25% loss after a sub
With toxic heal = 31.25% -> 6.25% gain after sub
And given that the metagame is dominated by weather, but mainly sand, you get neutral recovery w/ sand in play (though sand stall isnt as common as sand offense)
Lastly, I think changing Def EVs to Spe EVs might work better, breloom isn't exactly made for tanking hits, and outspeeding you opponent would allow you to tank using a sub/get a spore off.
It's an ALL OUT attacking set. Drain Punch with 75 BP doesn't hurt enough, and Superpower is a much more appealing fighting STAB. Also, if it runs Toxic Orb, it has plenty of recovery already. It may be close to Sky Uppercut in BP, but that's already a significant compromise in power.just wondering if u think drain punch is usable in the last slot on the all-out attack set?