Breloom (Swords Dance) [QC 1/3]

[alexwolf]

Tbh this set does not seem too good. Sure it may surprise some opponents with Mach Punch and SD every so and then but that's it. The same pokes that beated you, such as Skarmory, Lati@s, Gliscor with Acrobatics, Tornadus, Gengar and Reuniclus beat you anyway, and this set loses to some pokes it should beat such as HP Fire Rotom-W, HP Ice Landorus, Slowbro and Politoed if you chose Life Orb, while with Toxic Orb you are piss poor weak even at +2 and a million things wall you.

I think that we should wait for Technician to be released before making a SD set. As of now it seems clear OO material. But if the QC team accepts it, then Toxic Orb should be the only item choice and LO should get a mention in the AC. A physical attacker immune to status that heals 12,5% of it's life each turn can be useful on some situations.

 

[Ojama]

BulkUp Breloom with Drain Punch is able to sweep a team, even if its too slow. The problem here is that you're too slow + weak since you run an offensive spread. In addition, you have no powerfull move...

 

[JellyOs]

Tbh this set does not seem too good. Sure it may surprise some opponents with Mach Punch and SD every so and then but that's it. The same pokes that beated you, such as Skarmory, Lati@s, Gliscor with Acrobatics, Tornadus, Gengar and Reuniclus beat you anyway, and this set loses to some pokes it should beat such as HP Fire Rotom-W, HP Ice Landorus, Slowbro and Politoed if you chose Life Orb, while with Toxic Orb you are piss poor weak even at +2 and a million things wall you.

I think that we should wait for Technician to be released before making a SD set. As of now it seems clear OO material. But if the QC team accepts it, then Toxic Orb should be the only item choice and LO should get a mention in the AC. A physical attacker immune to status that heals 12,5% of it's life each turn can be useful on some situations.

(assuming +2)
-Skarm is 2HKO'd by Stone Edge after Rocks
-Latias is OHKO's 63% of the time by Stone Edge
-252 HP Gliscor is 2HKO'd by Stone Edge (Way more HP than AcroBat)
-Tornadus is 2HKO'd by Mach Punch after SR
-252 S.Atk Modest Rotom-W can't OHKO Breloom with HP Fire, while 128 HP is eaily 2HKO'd by Mach Punch
-EBelt HP Ice Landorus can't OHKO with HP Ice
-If Poli/Slowbro are a problem use Seed Bomb, it's in AC
-Reuniclus/Gengar aren't meant to be dealt with by this set. Your reasoning is basically "Why can't you deal with Pokemon that counter this set?". It's kinda like saying why can't Bulk Up Breloom counter Celebi. Everything needs team support. I mean, why should anyone use Starmie when it's countered by Ferrothorn? Everyone run HP Fire on Starmie! Thing is, there are alot of ways to deal with what stops this set. Scizor is awesome for trapping those Psychics and using dual priority. This set kills 6 out of the top 10 Pokemon though, so shouldn't it see some use even if it has counters?

@Ojama, The combination of Mach Punch and Stone Edge is insanely powerful. You'll almost always get to set up because of Spore, and Life orb only bolsters your attack. If you feel like you want a powerful move, run something over Spore. You aren't limited to these four moves, just look at the AC section.

EDIT: forgot to mention the end of alexwolf's post. Just look at the analysis. There's no way Toxic Orb can be main. You lose so much power and so many KO's by running Toxic Orb. It's a good option, just not a good primary option.

 

[Pocket]

Your skelly improved a lot, but more suggestions:

evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

40 HP EVs!

-A Life Orb nets many KO's and without it, Breloom lacks in the strength department. The only feasible option to remedy this would be to increase his life with a Toxic Orb, granting the mushroom with great recover abilities.

• This quote makes no sense. Breloom lacks strength without Life Orb, but then you state that Toxic Orb remedies this? Remove that sentence.
• Mention that Toxic Orb can be used in place of Life Orb for its great recovery and status protection in exchange for the loss in power

-Breloom loves to set up on Pokemon that carry Toxic and a STAB move he resists. A good example of this is Jellicent, and any other bulky Water really, as he can switch in on a Toxic and take minimal damage from any Scalds, while recovering off the damage. Breloom must watch out for stray Ice Beams though, as they have the chance to KO him.

Mention that Breloom holding a Life Orb also wants to avoid taking Scalds before it is poisoned by an opponent's Toxic / Toxic Spikes.

-Facade can be used as a general coverage move, but Breloom is usually too slow to truly abuse it.

Being too slow is a problem not unique to Facade. I would remove the phrase in red. Also mention that Facade is only useful with Toxic Orb.

-Lastly, Drain Punch can be used for recovery, but Breloom will miss the set-up opportunity Spore provides.

The bolded part is not unique to Drain Punch. I would mention the bolded phrase at the very beginning of AC, right before you introduce the various alternative coverage moves over Spore.

Gliscor can also stop a sweep, so Pokemon with strong Ice-type attacks are recommended to be used alongside Breloom.

You forgot to mention Celebi here, which can take 2 LO Stone Edges.

-A strong Pursuit user can also help Breloom succeed. Scizor is the exemplary partner because he can eliminate Ghosts as well as Latios, Latias and Flying-types such as Tornadus.

Also mention Reuniclus to the mix.

 

[JellyOs]

Took out/added/moved some stuff. Sorry, the 4 HP was a typo ;-; I also added a mention of Gastro/Quag/Swampert with Seed Bomb.

 

[alexwolf]

(assuming +2)
-Skarm is 2HKO'd by Stone Edge after Rocks
-Latias is OHKO's 63% of the time by Stone Edge
-252 HP Gliscor is 2HKO'd by Stone Edge (Way more HP than AcroBat)
-Tornadus is 2HKO'd by Mach Punch after SR
-252 S.Atk Modest Rotom-W can't OHKO Breloom with HP Fire, while 128 HP is eaily 2HKO'd by Mach Punch
-EBelt HP Ice Landorus can't OHKO with HP Ice
-If Poli/Slowbro are a problem use Seed Bomb, it's in AC
-Reuniclus/Gengar aren't meant to be dealt with by this set. Your reasoning is basically "Why can't you deal with Pokemon that counter this set?". It's kinda like saying why can't Bulk Up Breloom counter Celebi. Everything needs team support. I mean, why should anyone use Starmie when it's countered by Ferrothorn? Everyone run HP Fire on Starmie! Thing is, there are alot of ways to deal with what stops this set. Scizor is awesome for trapping those Psychics and using dual priority. This set kills 6 out of the top 10 Pokemon though, so shouldn't it see some use even if it has counters?

@Ojama, The combination of Mach Punch and Stone Edge is insanely powerful. You'll almost always get to set up because of Spore, and Life orb only bolsters your attack. If you feel like you want a powerful move, run something over Spore. You aren't limited to these four moves, just look at the AC section.

EDIT: forgot to mention the end of alexwolf's post. Just look at the analysis. There's no way Toxic Orb can be main. You lose so much power and so many KO's by running Toxic Orb. It's a good option, just not a good primary option.

I don't really get why you post these calcs... All these are 2hkoes at +2. How are you going to get 2 hits?

- Skarmory will lose 50% of it's health and ohko you.
- 252 Gliscor can simply Toxic Stall you if it is the max HP variant or kill you if it is the AcroBat one.
- Modest Rotom-W deals 83.52%-98.85% with HP Fire, so after SR and the LO recoil you will suffer from using Mach Punch you are always OHKOed.
- E-Belt Landorus deals 79%-93.5% with HP Ice, so after LO recoil and SR you have around 50% to be ohkoed. Factor in Sand damage (we are talking about Landorus right?) and the odds are not in your favor.
- Tornadus just takes one Mach Punch and then OHKOes.
- If you use Seed Bomb then a host of dangerous set-up sweepers, such as Dnite, Mence, Lati@s, Volcarona, Venusaur and more, use you as set-up fodder. Grass + Fighting is god awful coverage if they are your only moves.

My problem is that this set is inferior to the other on-site sets, while it can't get past most of Brelloom's usual counters. Why use this set and lose the bulk provided by the Bulk Up variant, if i am going to get walled and forced out by the same pokes anyway? You are using SD on a frail slow poke, and your only priority is a 40 BP attack, while your coverage is limited no way how you see it. Just stop a moment and think how many viable SD users we have in OU? We had Garchomp, Scizor, Lucario and maybe Infernape.

Lucario and Scizor are viable SDers because they have powerful priority that can actually kill things, not almost kill as Katakiri showcased, while also having a superb defensive typing letting them set-up easy, and finally have exceptional coverage (Lucario). Breloom can find many set-up opportunities due to Spore but then his coverage is very limited and his priority is still weak.

Garchomp had bulk, power and speed, while Breloom has only power.

And Infernape which is the least viable SDer, and is rarely seen, has power and speed, while also having priority, so once it sets up, if you have eliminated faster mons, he has a chance to sweep.

But how can Breloom do this when he is outsped by every offensive mon, doesn't have strong priority, and doesn't have the bulk to take hits from revenge killers?

As i said again, i am not saying that this set is useless, it certainly have its uses, i just don't think that these uses are enough to justify a main set.

 

[Pocket]

-One shouldn't underestimate Breloom's bulk. He is capable of surviving several priority attacks such as Choice Band Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed, Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch, and even an Ice Shard from a Life Orb Mamoswine! This lets Breloom come back with his own attack and KO the opponent.

• This is a good point to inform people, but you should caution people to avoid taking these hits if possible, since it would severely shorten Breloom's time of active play.

-Celebi, who normally walls this set, can also be handled easily be Scizor.

• Scizor still needs to be wary of HP Fire, though. You could keep Scizor, but perhaps mention the likes of Kyurem, Latios, Hydreigon, or Gengar to break Celebi (and Gliscor; possibly Skarmory, too).

stellar work, JellyOs :)

QC Approved (1/3)

 

[JellyOs]

- 252 Gliscor can simply Toxic Stall you if it is the max HP variant or kill you if it is the AcroBat one.

;-; You can't Toxic stall Breloom.

- Skarmory will lose 50% of it's health and ohko you.

Skarm switches in, loses 50% health, you outspeed and kill with Stone Edge.

- If you use Seed Bomb then a host of dangerous set-up sweepers, such as Dnite, Mence, Lati@s, Volcarona, Venusaur and more, use you as set-up fodder. Grass + Fighting is god awful coverage if they are your only moves.

Seed Bomb goes over Spore

Just stop a moment and think how many viable SD users we have in OU? We had Garchomp, Scizor, Lucario and maybe Infernape.

Stop thinking last gen, where all SD'ers needed speed. You forget Landorus, Terrakion, Gliscor, Toxicroak, Virizion, and Haxorus to an extent. You need PRIORITY or speed. Breloom provides that awesome priority that nails, I repeat, six out of the ten top BW OU Pokemon for super effective damage. This thing has uses. I wish it would stop getting compared to Bulk Up, because whereas that goes for staying in a while, this Breloom sets up and then attacks. It's very rare you'll get more than one boost with this Breloom. Like you said, it sucks to have Grass+Fighting coverage does suck. Too bad the set you're comparing this to uses just that, and it's a lot weaker. Try to think about this set standalone, not compare it with ant other Breloom set.

Raising another point, you say this can't beat things that other Breloom can beat. What is an example of that? Breloom counters are pretty universal, and I can't think of any differences that Bulk Up beats that this doesn't.

EDIT: @Pocket, thanks :D

 

[Pocket]

alexwolf and Ojama, this plays very differently from Bulk Up Breloom. BU Breloom has usable bulk to set up multiple Bulk Ups and possibly sweep, but it is much easier to wall than the set provided here.

Although Breloom is not bulky, Spore sets this apart from other Swords Dancers, providing Breloom the opportunity to either set up Swords Dance or finish off a mon with a boosted hit. See my battle log in the previous page to understand how this set works.

 

[alexwolf]

;-; You can't Toxic stall Breloom.

Yeah my bad lol. Then it can simply kill you slowly with EQ while stalling out your Stone Edges with Sub + Protect.

Skarm switches in, loses 50% health, you outspeed and kill with Stone Edge.

What? You are supposed to SD as Skarmory comes in, after you put something to sleep.

Seed Bomb goes over Spore

If you don't have Spore, good luck setting up.

Stop thinking last gen, where all SD'ers needed speed. You forget Landorus, Terrakion, Gliscor, Toxicroak, Virizion, and Haxorus to an extent. You need PRIORITY or speed. Breloom provides that awesome priority that nails, I repeat, six out of the ten top BW OU Pokemon for super effective damage. This thing has uses. I wish it would stop getting compared to Bulk Up, because whereas that goes for staying in a while, this Breloom sets up and then attacks. It's very rare you'll get more than one boost with this Breloom. Like you said, it sucks to have Grass+Fighting coverage does suck. Too bad the set you're comparing this to uses just that, and it's a lot weaker. Try to think about this set standalone, not compare it with ant other Breloom set.

Yeah i forgot all the 5 gen threats lol, but my point still stands... Landorus and Terrakion have speed and power, Gliscor has bulk with passable speed and offense, Virizion has Speed and bulk with passable offense, Toxicroak has strong priority and does not take LO recoil when used in rain, and Haxorus has huge power and passable speed. Brelloom has only excellent power but nothing else. He has non existent bulk and speed, unlike every other SDer in the tier. Again Breloom may have priority but it is WEAK. What if it hits 6 out of 10 top 10 OU pokes for super effective damage? You are expecting your opponent to bring those in against Breloom?
I am comparing it to the BU set because they are the same poke, and so they face competition for the team slot. If you use one you can't use the other, so you must see what each set offers. And it doesn't matter that BU Breloom gets walled even more easily, because it can wall some major threats out there such as Ttar, Rotom-W, Landorus, Politoed and even more if it sets up. This set cannot switch in on anything since it lacks Toxic Orb, and has only one chance to sweep, after you Spore something, since after the foe sees that you don't have Toxic Orb they will know that you are SD, and that your strongest move is a 80 BP Grass move.

Raising another point, you say this can't beat things that other Breloom can beat. What is an example of that? Breloom counters are pretty universal, and I can't think of any differences that Bulk Up beats that this doesn't.

My point is that if you are going to be forced out anyway by the same counters, why sacrifice Breloom assets, which are good resistances, status immunity and extra healing? That's why i think that Toxic Orb should be the main item on the set.

 

[JellyOs]

I'd really like to sum up this debate into:
• If you feel like you don't have enough power, run something over Spore
• If you wanna last longer, run Toxic Orb
• If you want a Pokemon that acts like Bulk Up Breloom, run Bulk Up Breloom
• If you want something that sets up quick and takes out key Pokemon for your team, run SD Breloom
• If you feel like SD Breloom gets countered by most standard Breloom counters like Celebi, Tornadus, Gengar and the like, run Scizor
• If you wanna kill Skarm NOT by using Breloom, run Magnezone (as the analysis suggests)

 

[alexwolf]

Fair enough. I still think that Toxic Orb should be the main item though, 'cause when a turn passes and you are not poisoned the opponent will understand that you are running SD, so he will act accordingly.

 

[JellyOs]

There's definitely a good point in that. I'll make sure to add that to the analysis. the only objection to Toxic Orb is that KO's are lost on crucial Pokemon, but I will make a case for Toxic Orb..

 

[Style_Dota]

Err, I would still probably slash in Seed Bomb in main. Having reliable STAB option is still a really nice option for this set, and anything that gets hit by Stone Edge can easily be handled by teammates (Rotom-W and Jirachi actually form a nice little core with Breloom).

 

[JellyOs]

There have been several opinion on this, but I still go with the AC opinion. This set relies on setting up, and Spore allow it to do so. Grass coverage isn't the best, nor does it help with Rotom-W, as a Burn is inevitable. Grass / Fighting coverage leaves you bait to so many things in the meta. This set makes itself in practice, so why not try it out with the set now? The key is you need to set up, and you can't do it without well without Spore. If you wanna replace Spore, you should have a damn good reason for doing so (i.e. coverage that no one else on your team can provide).

 

[Jimera0]

Hmmm I'll be honest. Having played last generation and knowing what an utter beast SD Breloom was last generation, I really wondered why there wasn't an analysis for this on site already this generation. It finally seems like someone has taken the time to test this out and show just how powerful this thing can be.

Seriously, 2HKOing Skarmory as it switches in is totally epic, and I can see this thing being an incredible late game sweeper thanks to the great power of a +2 Mach punch. Technician or no technician, doing 70% to nuetral foes with a priority move is absolutely killer mid to late game, especially with hazard support. Furthermore, things would be afraid to switch in because most things that don't mind a +2 Mach Punch hate a +2 Stone Edge. I fully support this set and don't honestly understand why it took so long for it to get up. I know back when I had my rain team SD Breloom was my worst nightmare...

EDIT: Having read the debates, I'm going to actually start suggesting now instead of simply voicing support. What sets this set appart from other SD sweepers is a couple things. 1: Guaranteed set up thanks to Spore. 2: Mach Punch at +2 is priority only rivaled by Scizor's BP and Lucario's +2 ES. It is NOT weak. I don't understand how anyone can call 2HKOing 248HP Scizor with a neutral physical move weak.

What this set has over other Breloom sets is the ability to a) Late-mid game clean b) Priority!!!! always a plus! Can revenge kill sweepers with low HP in a pinch even without set up. c) The ability to take out multiple threats, usually 1 with spore and another that tries to switch in (to assuredly get slaughtered).

So, as for suggestions of what to add/remove/move I support Seed Bomb remaining in AC, not being a main slash. Having a powerful STAB SEEMS important on paper, until you realize that almost anything Seed Bomb kills is also killed by Mach Punch or Stone Edge. A couple Bulky Waters like Vaporeon and Jellicent might be better dealt with using Seed Bomb, and certainly Hippowdon, but it's not worth losing Spore or Stone Edge for it. Similarly, I find Toxic Orb to be a bad idea overall, as bluffing in this case isn't particularly useful since you're going to blow it the same turn using SD anyway and this set just doesn't do bulky. If you want that, use BU Breloom instead. For that reason, I actually think Toxic Orb belongs in AC at best. The best way to use this set seems to be to come in, hit hard and fast. Either you do it early game and remove 1 or 2 Pokemon right off the bat, or you do it late game and sweep their weakened team, or if you're lucky, both.

Be careful when talking about its bulk too; this Breloom reminds me of my Sableye, able to use its resistances to switch in but not able to take strong attacks very well. Explain that the HP evs aren't there because you should be taking lots of attacks, but because they don't do you any good when put in speed.

Also make sure to emphasize how important hazard support is to this Breloom, turning many of its 2HKOs early game into OHKOs late game. I think this set also functions as sort of a wallbreaker, luring in the likes of Skarmory and KOing/sleeping them. This means it makes a great pairing with things like Terrakion and Lucario, as they can weaken eachothers checks to facilitate a sweep of one or the other.

And that's my 2 cents for now, might come back with more later.

 

[JellyOs]

Thanks for the input, Jimera0. I think the only reason this set wasn't written up is because Technician is unreleased, but as tested it can still kick-ass even without it. This set will definitely need to be updated after Technician is released though.

Side note: This set needs to be removed from OO if it goes on site.

EDIT(In reponse to Jimera0):

I find Toxic Orb to be a bad idea overall, as bluffing in this case isn't particularly useful since you're going to blow it the same turn using SD anyway and this set just doesn't do bulky. If you want that, use BU Breloom instead. For that reason, I actually think Toxic Orb belongs in AC at best.

• I think Toxic Orb can be useful in certain situations, especially if against a stall team the recovery can actually help loads. It's defiantly not primary slash material, but I think it deserves to be there. It helps a lot against those stray WoW's and Scalds Breloom switches into, as a Burn would utterly cripple it. It's useful for priority WoW from Sableye as well, and, dare I say it, priority Stun Spore from Whimsicott!

Be careful when talking about its bulk too; this Breloom reminds me of my Sableye, able to use its resistances to switch in but not able to take strong attacks very well. Explain that the HP evs aren't there because you should be taking lots of attacks, but because they don't do you any good when put in speed.

• I don't say the bulk is enough to switch in repeatedly, but I do mention it can be used to survive a priority attack and hit back, even if the Life Orb recoil kills you. I do NOT encourage switching Breloom in on strong attacks.

Also make sure to emphasize how important hazard support is to this Breloom, turning many of its 2HKOs early game into OHKOs late game. I think this set also functions as sort of a wallbreaker, luring in the likes of Skarmory and KOing/sleeping them. This means it makes a great pairing with things like Terrakion and Lucario, as they can weaken eachothers checks to facilitate a sweep of one or the other.

• I personally think I covered this well, but I will go back into the full write up and mention how extremely crucial it is to have hazrads with SD Breloom.

 

[Zeraphlol]

what i was saying about technician is that it makes this set a ton better. it's not out yet, and i feel like i would rather use a bulk up set because with breloom, it's so slow that the defense matters. however, i have not tried this set out yet, but i will try to soon.

Why not just use Conkeldurr then it's pretty much what you just described lol

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

@Zeraphlol - Poison Heal, Spore, the fact that Breloom does excellently against rain teams, can beat some Volt-Turn Teams and can muscle its way past Gliscor are just some of the reasons to use it over Conkeldurr. Check out the analysis for full justification. Btw welcome to Smogon!

 

[dice]

I've tried this set, and tbh I found it underwhelming. Conkeldurr can pull off the same set with much better bulky and reliable recovery, and with Life Orb (I tested) Breloom didn't last long at all, especially considering the prevalence of Sand..

 

[JellyOs]

Conkeldurr can pull off the same set with much better bulky and reliable recovery...

I'm sorry, but your statement is invalid. Conkeldurr lacks two of the moves this set packs and doesn't have the speed this set packs. Drain Punch isn't reliable recover either, and if you desire recovery use Toxic Orb. Comparing SD Breloom to Conkeldurr is like comparing vanilla ice cream to oyster ice cream, totally different.

 

[dice]

what does breloom's speed and spore make it better than conkeldurr? Lati@s, skarm, etc switch into the set, this set doesn't beat volturn or gliscor with ice fang / acrobatics 1v1, and with the prevalence of sand it won't be around long. Toxic orb makes the set too weak..

 

[JellyOs]

All your doing is listing counters. Every Pokemon has counters, and you're not really making a point about this set. I can lost counters for Conleldurr too, does that make it bad? You're kinda still arguing the Conkeldurr point, so to restate myself, they're very different. One sets up slowly and lasts a while, while Breloom sets up fast and hits hard as soon a it can. Also about Toxic Orb, don't use it if you don't like it lol some people prefer it, and just because it's not main slash doesn't mean you can't use it with this set.

 

[Pocket]

You really can't compare this set to any existing sets. Conkeldurr has more useful bulk, but Breloom does have that ever useful Spore and the quick power-boost of Swords Dance. You really cannot compare Bulk Up Breloom to SD Breloom, because they function drastically differently, despite being the same Pokemon. SD Loom is much more offensively threatening thanks to Rock + Fighting coverage with SD-boosted STAB priority.

 

[Myzozoa]

A lot of people have posted about how this set has problems, it's slow and weak and it has a case of '4 moveslot syndrome' way worse than DPP Suicune. I think that it's completely fine that SD Breloom should have an analysis. It's a real set that can be used to fill a certain niche. So I agree that this set should be on site.

The problem for me is that I looked at the OP and I saw an abundance of notes and factoids about this set. This set is mediocre, and to me all these notes and junk are attempting to pass SD Breloom off as a highly desirable sweeper that really just needs support to be good. When the reality of this is that SD Loom is underwhelming except for against specific variations of Volt-turn offense and Drizzle stall.

Yes there should be an analysis, but it should be one that doesn't make all these claims about being a true sweeper. It's a spore user with a priority move, shitty coverage and crappy bulk. The analysis should be very clear: This Breloom can patch up holes and it can be a 'glue' pokemon. Think more of NP Celebi than SD Lucario. Any user of this set should be wary of building a team around this, it's much more reliable as a user of spore that can revenge kill. You can use this set, you will not sweep any competent opponent, you may win matches where you can spore something and revenge kill something else.

Also, I think the moveset should be seed bomb, mach punch, spore, swords dance. Stone edge doesn't do much for you as the things that would be killed by stone edge kill you before you can kill them.