Burning 'Mon [Pre-Viability Update]

Martin

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I like the idea of using Jellicent here. Hex is insane and it can actually threaten the Fire-types which are un-phased by it.

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Surf
- Taunt
- Recover

Or you could go for a specs set to dent stuff with your insanely powerful STAB

Jellicent @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / enough speed to beat something / rest in HP
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
 
I like the idea of using Jellicent here. Hex is insane and it can actually threaten the Fire-types which are un-phased by it.

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Surf
- Taunt
- Recover

Or you could go for a specs set to dent stuff with your insanely powerful STAB

Jellicent @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / enough speed to beat something / rest in HP
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
Threatening Fire-types isn't too much of a niche over Lord Blimpis, but Recover IS, and is also what you should have mentioned in the first place. Still, you're sacrificing a LOT of power for a little coverage and some recovery. The leftovers set might be a thing, but Specs Jellicent is only ever going to be viable if Burning 'Monotype becomes a thing or the great Lord Blimpis is bant (both unlikely).
 

Martin

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Threatening Fire-types isn't too much of a niche over Lord Blimpis, but Recover IS, and is also what you should have mentioned in the first place. Still, you're sacrificing a LOT of power for a little coverage and some recovery. The leftovers set might be a thing, but Specs Jellicent is only ever going to be viable if Burning 'Monotype becomes a thing or the great Lord Blimpis is bant (both unlikely).
Tbh i just wanted to talk about how a set similar to one in bw that i had fun messing with was more viable than in standard :) idc about how effective it is in practice its just fun to talk about niche sets XD
 
In my experience with the metagame, Fire types are some of the better checks to Hex spam, so having something to hit Heatran/etc. is pretty valuable.

Speaking of Fire types, I don't think I've gushed about Mega Houndoom in this thread. Fire/Dark, even with so-so defensive stats, is a very anti-meta defensive type, taking very little from Hex due to no burn + resistance. Also, with Groudon unbanned, you have a reliable Sun setter that doesn't stack Fire type weaknesses, allowing you to take advantage of Solar Power (the passive damage it does is also less notable in a meta where many things are taking burn damage). I show it off in my replays against Ghoul King in the OP, although Heracross definitely put in more work in those games. :P
 

Martin

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Btw does Toxic Orb or burn activate first? If the former does, then it would provide an alternative way to run physical attackers due to being immune to burn when poisoned.
 
It´s programmed so that all Pokémon are already burned when the match begins, so Toxic Orb won´t activate (I am not sure if Toxic Orb activates if you remove the burns with Aromatherapy or Heal Bell).
 
It´s programmed so that all Pokémon are already burned when the match begins, so Toxic Orb won´t activate (I am not sure if Toxic Orb activates if you remove the burns with Aromatherapy or Heal Bell).
Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Toxic Orb?
A: If your status is cured by Heal Bell/Refresh/etc., then on the next available turn, your Toxic Orb will activate before you're burned again. That sounds like an awful lot of work to use Gliscor, though.
That should answer your question.
 
If this works like that, then something like

Sawsbuck @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Horn Leech
- Jump Kick
- Aromatherapy

could work maybe? It doesn't directly benefit from Toxic Orb like Poison Heal mons but it beats being Burned and its the best one I found due to STAB on Facade, decent offensive stats, and Horn Leech letting it heal back some toxic damage.
I have better proposition...
(...)
Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Toxic Orb?
A: If your status is cured by Heal Bell/Refresh/etc., then on the next available turn, your Toxic Orb will activate before you're burned again. That sounds like an awful lot of work to use Gliscor, though.
(...)
I take chalenge:

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 84 HP / 188 Def / 236 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off / Protect
- Facade
- Roost / Protect
- Substitute

After Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, this pokemon could be only one who gain HP in every turn.
When someones knock out Heal Bell user before using this move... Still we have facade for damage, but in general we lose great pokemon anyway.

More defensive stats - just for better taking damage from Guts users, and Facade users.
Speed this pokemon have enouth for outspeed not Scarfed Driffblim.

Oh... about Driffblim:

(...)
Q: What if my Pokemon is holding a Lum Berry/Rawst Berry?
A: The burn will be cured as you switch in, the berry will be consumed, and you'll be burned at the end of the turn. My question to you is -- why would you want that?
(...)
For this:

Drifblim @ Lum Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex (Only one move who everyone want run in this meta anyway)
- Thunderbolt / Other Move
- Other Move
- Other Move

This Driffblim have less power, but much more speed for outspeed other Scarf Driffblims and Scarf Alakazam.
Sadly, we need Timid nature for this speed, also we lose item slot for berry, what is very important for activate Unburden:

My calculations:
Scarf Driffblim on max speed in EVs and Timid nature: 284 x 1.5 = 426
Scarf Alakazam on max speed in EVs and Timid nature: 372 x 1.5 = 558
Unburden Drifblim with 236 speed in EVs and Timid nature: 280 x 2 = 560

Of corse we lose this boost after swith...
 
Drifblim @ Lum Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex (Only one move who everyone want run in this meta anyway)
- Thunderbolt / Other Move
- Other Move
- Other Move

This Driffblim have less power, but much more speed for outspeed other Scarf Driffblims and Scarf Alakazam.
Sadly, we need Timid nature for this speed, also we lose item slot for berry, what is very important for activate Unburden:

My calculations:
Scarf Driffblim on max speed in EVs and Timid nature: 284 x 1.5 = 426
Scarf Alakazam on max speed in EVs and Timid nature: 372 x 1.5 = 558
Unburden Drifblim with 236 speed in EVs and Timid nature: 280 x 2 = 560

Of corse we lose this boost after swith...
Following on from that would be this that I've made. Whether it's any good though is another story.

Slurpuff @ Lum Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf
- Thunderbolt / Something else you may want

Calm Mind to boost up at the start while the berry temporarily removes the burn for a Quiver Dance-esque effect, Draining Kiss for STAB and to mitigate the burn damage, Surf for the Fire types that will inevitably thrive in this meta, Thunderbolt mainly for Drifblim but it could come into play against the likes of Floatzel and Huntail.

Again, not certain of whether this would actually pull its weight... Opinions?
 
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The problem with using Unburden Drifblim is that you don't have access to Flare Boost, which is why Drifblim is particularly usable in the first place. Slurpuff might fare a bit better, but unless you really need that Speed, CM Magic Guard Clefable is just all-around better for the job. Interesting strategy, though. If there was a normal type Unburden user, Lum + Unburden + Facade + SD(?) could work.
 
Following on from that would be this that I've made. Whether it's any good though is another story.

Slurpuff @ Lum Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf
- Thunderbolt / Something else you may want

Calm Mind to boost up at the start while the berry temporarily removes the burn for a Quiver Dance-esque effect, Draining Kiss for STAB and to mitigate the burn damage, Surf for the Fire types that will inevitably thrive in this meta, Thunderbolt mainly for Drifblim but it could come into play against the likes of Floatzel and Huntail.

Again, not certain of whether this would actually pull its weight...
Draining Kiss is as powerful after a Calm Mind as Dazzling Gleam is before it. Setup Slurpuff can be made to function in standard OU on account of Belly Drum being so incredibly powerful; Calm Mind sets are depressingly weak, though.

+2 252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 302-356 (86 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 354-416 (90.5 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 338-402 (80.4 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO << Not that you should use Garchomp, just an example.
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

These example mons are weak to Slurpuff's STAB, but bulky. They're the kind of mons you want to reliably plow through after spending a whole turn on setup. So I would say that no, CM Slurpuff is not worth your time.
 

Martin

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is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Unburden+Lum sucks because you only have one shot at Unburden, and being unable to use your typing to pivot before you're ready to clean really, /really/ sucks in around 80% of games.
 
Okay I really wanted to bump this because this is probably one of the best ideas out there, without a doubt. The premise is so simple but it changes so much in the metagame.

This deserves so much attention since it's probably one of the best and arguably most balanced metas out there (I say this even without that much testing). Nothing in particular seems broken (drifblim says hi, sorta) and the premise is just what OMs should be - simple and easy to learn, but extremely influential in the metagame.

I would ask you to repost this thread like what you did with G&F but I've already bumped this so...rip :x But either way, if anyone has any teams I'd love to battle in whichever server this is playable in.

But yeah. I just wanted to bump this so maybe people will want to contribute more :x
 
Definitely going to build a team for this once I get home. I'll be hanging around rom, so if you see me, feel free to challenge me to a Burning Mon battle!

I'd also like to start possibly working on an outline for a VR. I know there hasn't been much testing, but it's pretty clear which mons will rise (Drifblim, Alakazam) and which ones will fall (basically every non-Fire type Physical Attacker).
 
I've been messing around with some team ideas for a bit; this is actually pretty fun. Trying to play around a metagame where everyone is unavoidably burned (unless you have a special ability, of course) makes for some shenanigans. And possibly strong strategies. Either way, I've nothing to really contribute apart from just giving positive feedback on this. Apart from the fact that Guts users now have a free item slot. Hooray, I guess?
 

Swellow @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- U-Turn
- Pursuit / Quick Attack

Speaking about Guts users, what about Swellow? It's lightning fast and holy shit look at this power:

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 340-402 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 220-259 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 144-170 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 148-174 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 201-237 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 120-141 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 244-288 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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I got challenged to a match of this today and it made me realize that, of the metas I've created, this is personally my favorite to play. Its fast-paced and different enough from standard without being too weird. So to give this thread a bit of a spark, I decided to add a new banner (featuring our lord and savoir) and create an analysis dump of all the Pokemon that were potentially buffed by the meta. Hopefully, with a little more thread and battle activity, this discussion can lead to the creation of some viability rankings. Until then, I'll put this analysis in the second post.

Thanks for the support, everyone!



Ghoul King has used this to decent effect, but there are better Guts users. Admittedly, Raticate is one of the only legitimate Pursuit users in this meta, so it has that niche.
Very strong, but faces competition from Conkeldurr (although you have Close Combat, while Conk can only use Superpower). Of the pure Fighting type Guts users, Machamp is actually the fastest, so it can pull off a better Scarf set but...
Amazing. Scarf sets just wreck house, and you even have the options of running SD or Band. While you don't have the highest Attack, 125 is still great and your secondary STAB and above average Speed for a Guts 'mon make up for that small downside. I feel confident in saying Heracross is one of the best picks in the meta.
In terms of sheer power, Guts Ursaring is hard to beat, as you can boost your Facade damage through 1) burn amplifier, 2) Guts amplifier and 3) a damage item like Band or Silk Scarf. You can even go for SD!
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-301 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
gvmgvm40 did a post on this so I won't go into too much detail, but Swellow is by far the fastest Guts user and honestly one of the fast viable Pokemon in the meta. You're one of the best remaining U-turn users, and probably the best Pursuit user. I'd opt for Jolly Band over Adamant (outspeed Alakazam, etc.), though.
Aside from Fake Out (which also stalls out a burn turn for yourself), Machamp and Conkeldurr do everything you want to do better. You're a bit bulkier, but you lose out on Attack and Speed.
Ridiculously powerful. Adamant Band Mach Punch is great for revenge killing, and any Ghost switching in will have to worry about Knock Off. You also have pretty decent bulk and run Drain Punch to recover off
Eh? If you want to use this thing, I guess Circle Throw is the way to go. You're all-around pretty damn bulky, so a Tank phazing set doesn't sound awful, but for pure offense, there are better options.
Cruel, cruel fate.
Potentially kind of neat! Electric is an uncommon type for physical attackers anyway, but in this meta, you're basically one of a kind. You also have Volt Switch, which doesn't get boosted by Guts, but is a cool pivot move regardless.
Base 45 Speed is awful, and because your Attack is still halved, there's really no point.
More limited than the Guts set, as only Facade will do real damage, but you'll be able to outspeed a lot more. Worth considering if you need a fast Normal type physical attacker.
Worthless first-route trash.
The only special attacker to get this ability. 130 Speed is so fast that it seems pointless to even bother with Quick Feet, but you can now run more bulk along with a Modest nature, both out-bulking and out-damaging Raikou, your greatest competition in standard.
Worthless first-route trash with STAB Facade (that's worse than pretty much every Facade user)
Even with drastically lowered expectations, Seaking falls short. There are stronger, faster and bulkier users of this ability.
As a special attacker, the burn didn't especially bother you to begin with. Not worth using unless you really don't want to take passive damage with a better Water type like Keldeo.
Pretty neat as a tank despite your lack of recovery, as 65/70/140 defensive stats are pretty good with investment. Best of all, you're a rare burn-less Defog user!
One of the last Pokemon that benefits from boosting Speed + Attack remaining. Shame you can't pass the boosts, but even on your own, you can do solid damage after a Shell Smash.
Pretty fast and decently powerful, Floatzel benefits a lot from lowered expectations. You can also use Aqua Ring to troll your opponents behind a Substitute (shout out to DTC).
Defog and U-turn are cool, but your low stats aren't. Look elsewhere.
About 15% of this thread is Drifblim hype, so you've no doubt already heard the potential havoc you can unleash with Hex and Flare Boost. Essentially, Drifblim is the Hoopa-U of the meta -- middling Speed at base 80, but if you can get it in safely, few things can avoid being 2HKOd or OHKOd.
Constantly outclassed by other Water types, you now have the advantage of serious mixed bulk thanks to Marvel Scale. Thanks to your Water typing, you can check a lot of physical Fire attackers like Zard X, phazing them out or hitting them with a decently-powerful Surf or Hydro Pump.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
Hell yeah! Zard X was already one of the most fearsome physical sweepers in standard, but now he faces much less competition and doesn't even take passive damage like pretty much all the other physical attackers.
Still as good as ever, and your sun can even benefit other Fire types on the team.
Outclassed. Groudon and Zard Y are both better sun setters with much higher stats. You non-STAB Hex, I guess?
Pretty cool as a tank -- Intimidate and Flash Fire are both useful here, plus you're a rare defensive Pokemon that 1) has recovery and 2) doesn't take damage from burn. You also have offensive pressure thanks to Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed, but you're outclassed in pure offensive roles.
Outclassed by Arcanine and Entei.
Despite your high Attack, low Speed and a small movepool hold you back.
Generally outclassed by Zard Y, but Hurricane sets you a part a bit.
Powerful, but outclassed by other special attackers.
Maybe viable. You have Recover, good Defense and Stealth Rock, plus Scald's decreased effectiveness makes Water attacks slightly less common. Low stats and bad typing are still bummers, though.
Very powerful in the sun, and generally pairs well with Groudon. You're also a great offensive check to Drifblim, who fears your STAB and has to predict you with a SE Hidden Power in order to do any damage.
You're the most powerful Extreme Speed user in the meta, and you can safely ditch Sacred Fire for Flare Blitz. Solid offensive Fire type overall.
Pretty cool as an offensive tank with Stealth Rock, or a straight up nuke under Trick Room.
Rapid Spin is nice...otherwise, don't bother.
Has a ton of sets, and faces less competition for using them in this meta. Fake Out and Stealth Rock have great utility, you have powerful attacks like Close Combat and Overheat and you can even run a bulky set with Slack Off.
Faces a lot of competition, and doesn't do anything unique.
Solid defensive Pokemon that gets a leg up on Rotom-W by not taking passive damage, making it a longer-lasting pivot.
Even better than it is in OU. Stealth Rock, Roar, Steel typing, Flash Fire and good stats are all great benefits, and you still have the option of clutch offensive sets. One of the better users of Protect, as well.
Highly versatile attacker, and the only usable physical Psychic. V-create or Blue Flare both put in a lot of work, and can be further boosted by sun.
Faces competition from both Fire and (Guts) Fighting types, but as a wallbreaker, its Flare Blitzes are nearly unmatched.
Nah.
Very powerful, and does well with both Scarf and Life Orb. U-turn gives it a niche over other physical attackers, and in general, it has one of the highest damage potentials.
Amazing. Hex is boosted on most targets thanks to burn, and Flash Fire checks other Fire types. Chandelure is very anti-meta and serves a top special attacker pick.
Sucker Punch + Flash Fire, I guess? Don't use it.
Like always, you'll want to keep Rocks off the field, but if you can Volcarona has more longevity than most special sweepers thanks to the lack of burn. Set up a Quiver Dance or two and you'll be hard to stop, especially since the only Aqua Jet you'll fear is Floatzel's.
It's alright, but Alakazam outclasses it as a no-burn damage Psychic, and there are better Fire types.
Already top tier, and now you're one of the only priority users around. While WoW sets are obviously useless, SD and Band are better than ever.
Not worth it.
Unreleased but promising.
Sets itself apart from Drifblim and Chandelure with much higher Speed, but misses out on a lot of power and longevity. Still worth using, but has more competition as an offensive Ghost.
Modest Specs Hex is in the same damage bracket at +2 Modest Xerneas Moonblast. Enough said.
As a check to -ate/Scrappy + Facade thanks to Mummy, Cofagrigus is worth using in general, but base 95 is rather good for a defensive Pokemon and you even get Nasty Plot, so you have the option to dish out some damage as well.
Already discussed, still solid.
Aerilate Facade is pretty scary, especially after an SD. You definitely miss Quick Attack doing damage, though.
As one of the last remaining viable DD users, Altaria mostly stuck to its Fairy STAB to begin with, so the damage boost of Facade over Return is appreciated. DD/Roost/Facade/Fire Blast is a pretty solid set, though Fire types give you trouble. Few can damage you back, however.
Spikes + Facade is pretty good as a suicide lead, though you can't really touch Fire types.
Lopunny lost a lot of versatility in this meta, but Scrappy Facade makes up for some of that. Thanks to Scrappy, you really don't need other attacks anyway, so fill your slots with stuff like Healing Wish and Encore.
Huge Power and a STAB 140 bp move? Oh dear. Diggersby is held back by its loss of priority and coverage, but like Glalie it can pull off a decent Spikes set as well as Scarf/Band sets that mostly just click Facade or U-turn.
Curse Lax appreciates the boost in power, although it drops back to 70 while asleep.
Maybe a stretch but I can see Miltank being decent as a defensive Pokemon with some offensive pressure. Stealth Rock + Milk Drink allow you to keep up with Chansey, while you trade bulk for Attack and Speed.
Mama is back. Parental Bond Facade is one of the strongest moves in the game, and while you certainly miss doing damage with your coverage and priority moves, just slotting Facade onto a set with stuff like Seismic Toss and Wish will still make you a force to be reckoned with.
 
Unaware and Chansey/Blissey will start being some of the great walls in this metagame. Probably become unstoppable if the opposing team doesn't use Guts or Facade.

-TenucSkenuck
 
Unaware and Chansey/Blissey will start being some of the great walls in this metagame. Probably become unstoppable if the opposing team doesn't use Guts or Facade.

-TenucSkenuck
What?
First off, always use guts/facade
Secondly, keldeo is a thing, as is hoopla-u.
And finally? How does Chansey get unaware? This isn't balanced hackmons.
 
I think he means Unaware Pokemon (Clefable, Quagsire) AND Chansey/Blissey, Quantum Tesseract. But you are absolutely right -- every team needs at least one Guts user. Chansey is solid, however, as a full stop to Drifblim along with other threats like Chandelure, though it needs to watch out for Trick or Knock Off (which should be on every Drifblim set IMO).
 

Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
I am not sure if I missed anything in the op but....
When you switch in your PH gliscor into the battlefield, what status occurs first?Burn or Toxic
If it gets Toxiced, then it can be a good facade user.
 

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