It gets burned first -- you'd have to Heal Bell/Aromatherapy the burn first before getting the Toxic Orb.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Burning 'Mon [Pre-Viability Update]
- Thread starter Jajoken
- Start date
Gliscor need only Heal Bell or Aromatherapy suport. After this - becomes really fantastic stall pokemon with ability to heall in every turn good amound of HP.
Protect/Sub can stall 32 turns, burn deal 12% hp eath time. Poison will heall for him 1/8 hp every turn, so... after Substitute/Protect he will gain come back HP to status from previous two turns.
For Magic Guard still have Facade with 140 power. And no burned Knock Off.
Max Speed and Atack should be usefull here, but more tanky set also could better tank first hit before Sub.
Oh... and Roost is also option in some situations...
Hmm.. I think that Goodra could ACTUALLY pretty good in this Metagame. With its hydration ability, you can simply heal your burn for some turns and heal with leftovers while you stall out your opponents special attacks, (cuz physical isn't all this good in this meta)
One would think so, but even assuming that Hydration actually does keep the burn damage away (which I'm not actually sure about), some Fire-types (Talonflame and Mega Charizard X, also maybe Infernape) can set up and break Goodra with a second STAB typing, Mega Charizard Y and Groudon set sun to fuck up Goodra's rain, and moreover Guts users like Conkeldurr, Heracross, maybe Raticate?, Swellow, and Ursaring mean that physical attacks are absolutely relevant here. Oh, and there's also mono-attacking Facade users like Diggersby, Mega Altaria, and Mega Glalie to worry about. Goodra might work on some teams, but I doubt it'll actually be too much better than in standard.
Hydration prevents Burn damage, I'm pretty sure even in Burning Mon, as the Burn attempt occurs well after everything else that happens in a turn. (Hence why Toxic Orb will work if you get the Burn off of your Gliscor)
That doesn't mean Goodra is liable to be all that great, mind. Too many problems with it. It helps that it resists Fire and if it's setting Rain that makes it even more true that Fire types need to turn to coverage, but the various Guts abusers and Fire types with relevant coverage are still big Physical threats to it. Since Goodra has to spend a turn setting the rain if it doesn't have rain support, it's not even very good at switching into special attackers to soak damage, because the turn it spends setting the Rain is the turn the enemy is switching in a threat to Goodra, and now it can't stay in and Rest.
Might be interesting as part of a Rain team, though.
That doesn't mean Goodra is liable to be all that great, mind. Too many problems with it. It helps that it resists Fire and if it's setting Rain that makes it even more true that Fire types need to turn to coverage, but the various Guts abusers and Fire types with relevant coverage are still big Physical threats to it. Since Goodra has to spend a turn setting the rain if it doesn't have rain support, it's not even very good at switching into special attackers to soak damage, because the turn it spends setting the Rain is the turn the enemy is switching in a threat to Goodra, and now it can't stay in and Rest.
Might be interesting as part of a Rain team, though.
Pre-Viability Rankings
Pre-Viability Rankings
Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.
There are four categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not nessecarily better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.
Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.
Chandelure
Conkeldurr
Drifblim
Genesect
Greninja
Groudon
Heracross
Infernape
Lucario (Mega)
Raticate
Swellow
Ursaring
Zekrom
Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings.
Alakazam
Alakazam (Mega)
Chansey
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Clefable
Gengar
Heatran
Keldeo
Latios
Manaphy
Manectric (Mega)
Reuniclus
Rotom (Wash)
Serperior
Slowbro
Slowking
Starmie
Suicune
Talonflame
Thundurus
Tornadus (Therian)
Victini
Volcanion
Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.
Altaria (Mega)
Diggersby
Floatzel
Glalie (Mega)
Gliscor
Goodra
Jirachi
Jolteon
Kyurem (Black)
Landorus (Therian)
Lopunny (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Tier IV: Extinguished
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are negatively affected by the mechanics of the OM to the point where they're probably no longer useful. In addition, previously banned Pokemon which are no longer useful would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would either be much much lower (- 5 to 6 subranks) or it would be unranked entirely if we had true viability rankings.
Dragonite
Excadrill
Gyarados
Gyarados (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Terrakion
Weavile
Pre-Viability Rankings
Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.
There are four categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not nessecarily better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.
Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.
Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings.
Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.
Tier IV: Extinguished
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are negatively affected by the mechanics of the OM to the point where they're probably no longer useful. In addition, previously banned Pokemon which are no longer useful would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would either be much much lower (- 5 to 6 subranks) or it would be unranked entirely if we had true viability rankings.
I want to try something.
Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.
There are three categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.
Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.
Examples:
Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings.
Examples:
Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.
Examples:
Anyone is free to contribute to the discussion -- there is no Burning 'Mon viability council. I'll add my own nominations sometime later this week, but until then I'd like to see nominations from other people. I'll update OP2 once we have a preliminary list.
Thanks!
Last edited:
/ds guts, !nfe, !lc
For real though, Conkeldurr, Raticate, Swellow, and Ursaring should all go in Tier I. Mega Lucario, Greninja, and maybe Genesect also go here.
A few common specially-oriented Regen mons (Slowbro, Slowking, and Tornadus-Therian) are probably Tier II, since they can exploit / recover off the residual damage easily enough. Not Amoonguss, since it loses Spore. Other things that go in Tier II include Talonflame, Volcanion, Mega Charizard Y, Suicune (already runs Rest), Reuniclus, and Victini.
Tier III should include Mega Lopunny (which gets a few good utility moves to round off a Facade set), Mega Glalie (which can go mixed and set Spikes), and Mega Altaria (which can already run mono-attacking sets).
Also, potentially introduce a Tier IV for OU-viable mons that are just not relevant any more, just for completeness's sake. Physical attackers that aren't Fire-type, Facade users, or Guts attackers.
For real though, Conkeldurr, Raticate, Swellow, and Ursaring should all go in Tier I. Mega Lucario, Greninja, and maybe Genesect also go here.
A few common specially-oriented Regen mons (Slowbro, Slowking, and Tornadus-Therian) are probably Tier II, since they can exploit / recover off the residual damage easily enough. Not Amoonguss, since it loses Spore. Other things that go in Tier II include Talonflame, Volcanion, Mega Charizard Y, Suicune (already runs Rest), Reuniclus, and Victini.
Tier III should include Mega Lopunny (which gets a few good utility moves to round off a Facade set), Mega Glalie (which can go mixed and set Spikes), and Mega Altaria (which can already run mono-attacking sets).
Also, potentially introduce a Tier IV for OU-viable mons that are just not relevant any more, just for completeness's sake. Physical attackers that aren't Fire-type, Facade users, or Guts attackers.
I'd like to suggest Manaphy for either steady pyres or rising flames, thanks to its exceelence in standard, now great type, and hydration. Gengar with hex is another solid possibility.
Landorus-T, Excadrill, Weavile, Gyarados-mega, Mega Medicham, Terrakion, and Jirachi, Mega Heracross, Dragonite, and Gyarados for flickering sparks.
Steady Pyres: Mega Alakazam, Latios, Thundurus, Serperior, Kyub (special, facade, bulky, still great stats, etc) MMane, Starmie, and Washtom
Landorus-T, Excadrill, Weavile, Gyarados-mega, Mega Medicham, Terrakion, and Jirachi, Mega Heracross, Dragonite, and Gyarados for flickering sparks.
Steady Pyres: Mega Alakazam, Latios, Thundurus, Serperior, Kyub (special, facade, bulky, still great stats, etc) MMane, Starmie, and Washtom
Updated with Quantum Tesseract's nominations, with some changes.
- I assume you meant Tier IV, not Tier III, for that middle row. Stuff like Mega Medicham is not viable at all. However, I did add Landorus-T and Jirachi to Tier III. Lando has a usable Special Attack stat, good utility in Intimidate and Stealth Rock and solid bulk/typing. Jirachi runs Special lure sets from time to time and that was the default in DPP, so it might still be useful with its coverage, typing and ability to pass Wish.
- Kyurem-Black was also added to Tier III. It might still be good, but it definitely lost something by no longer being able to go physical in any capacity. Facade is not good -- it needs massive investment to even 2HKO Chansey with burn.
- Gengar and Manaphy were not placed in Tier I because even though I have no doubt they will be very good, they were already among the best Pokemon in OU so that hasn't changed much -- perfect descriptor of Tier II.
I brought this up in the chat and meant to say it here earlier though I didn't...Pyroar might be worth using for immunity to ghost moves.
Though Houndoom resisting ghost and having Dark STAB against them might be better.
(Don't write off semi-defensive Pyroar even if it's defensive in the way that Shedinja normally is); immunity to common types switch in and deal damage (ideally switching into something choiced to be unable to switch to a move that works)...
Though Houndoom resisting ghost and having Dark STAB against them might be better.
(Don't write off semi-defensive Pyroar even if it's defensive in the way that Shedinja normally is); immunity to common types switch in and deal damage (ideally switching into something choiced to be unable to switch to a move that works)...
The problem with Pyroar is that it doesn't offer much except being able to switch into Ghost moves. Even if you invest max/max it's still 2HKO'd by HP Fighting/Thunderbolt, it doesn't really offer anything defensively and it's not offensively threatening either. If you're looking for a decent Drifblim check Mega Pidgeot looks interesting imo. It's still somewhat gimmicky and it's bopped by Thunderbolt, but it can take one HP Fighting, actually has recovery in Roost, can threaten Drifblim back with that fast Hurricane and it can run a Work Up set to break Chansey/Clefable as well.
Last edited:
There's also Mega Houndoom, which doesn't like HP Fighting either, but can 2HKO Chansey with sun support from Groudon.
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 435-513 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if they get cheeky and try to send Heatran in on that,
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 301-355 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lemme see if I can expand on Tier 4 a bit:
Those are all on the OU Viability rankings right now, but just don't have the damage output and/or staying power and/or utility to really matter in this meta probably.
LOL SHEDINJA; is there any point in mentioning a mon that's whole role in this meta would be...KO at the end of the turn it switches in? I mean what's it going to do? "absorb" one hit an baton pass out always? hah.Lemme see if I can expand on Tier 4 a bit:
Shedinja
Those are all on the OU Viability rankings right now, but just don't have the damage output and/or staying power and/or utility to really matter in this meta probably.
When there's a tier for things that are normally ranked but wouldn't be here, then yes, it bears mention.
Alright I could criticize other ones on that list...Cloyster is going to drop in viability, but I don't think all the way to useless. It can still set spikes (less viable than Forretress at that, save the lack of double weaknesses) and it could run a special Shell Smash set... Hydro Pump and Ice Beam/Blizzard instead of Icicle Spear and Razor Shell...
EDIT: Actually since the meta is fire-heavy it might increase in viability a bit, even if it loses the (normally) better ice stab icicle spear set...hydro pump set after Shell Smash might be sweeper-tier.
EDIT: Actually since the meta is fire-heavy it might increase in viability a bit, even if it loses the (normally) better ice stab icicle spear set...hydro pump set after Shell Smash might be sweeper-tier.
Last edited:
Updates:
-> Tier III
-> Tier IV
-> Already in Tier III (has pretty decent SpA and provides Intimidate support + SR)
-> Tier III (again, usable SpA + SR, punishes physical attackers with RS + RH)
-> Tier III (has no reason to use Wisp now, but very useful as a bulky Magic Bouncer due to the effectiveness of SR)
-> Tier III (decent SpA + special movepool, can wear down enemy with sand + burn)
-> Tier III (can run Poision Heal set w/ Heal Bell support)
-> Tier III (same reason as Ttar, but instead of having decent SpA, you have Slack Off)
-> Tier II III (aside from being worn down easier, the only change is less damage on EQ which can subbed out for Earth Power)
EDIT: I realized it also loses the niche of spreading burns with Scald -- still useful as an Unaware wall but I'll put it in Tier II instead
-> Tier III (runs a Nasty Plot + Vacuum Wave set in standard)
-> Tier III (SpA is as good as its Atk, still has useful defensive typing to check Normals, etc.)
EDIT: I realized it also loses the niche of spreading burns with Scald -- still useful as an Unaware wall but I'll put it in Tier II instead
There are better Shell Smash users like Huntail (can't get burned). Without Skill Link, Cloyster is just a mediocre Water type.
Gorebyss and Omastar have higher SpA and similar movepool, so unless the ice STAB means something, not going to argue. :)
Foul Play and Knock Off, its best STABs, are now woefully underpowered, and it already had problems getting worn down before it was auto-burnt. It can't threaten any relevant physical attackers, and is honestly probably a waste of a mega evolution. I'd sooner run Mega Diancie if I really needed that Magic Bounce, because it can actually deal meaningful damage to Stealth Rock users.-> Tier III (has no reason to use Wisp now, but very useful as a bulky Magic Bouncer due to the effectiveness of SR)
It can, but I'd much sooner run Gliscor because of its better bulk, speed, and Ground STAB. Breloom just doesn't get the opportunities it needs to set up and gets incinerated by Fire-types, not to mention the blimp.-> Tier III (can run Poision Heal set w/ Heal Bell support)
Is there any point in running a sand setter this pathologically passive? Anything not actively weak to Ground will have a field day with it. I'd just run Tyranitar if I wanted sand that badly.-> Tier III (same reason as Ttar, but instead of having decent SpA, you have Slack Off)
If you look at the calcs, it doesn't actually wall any of the usable physical attackers.-> TierIIIII (aside from being worn down easier, the only change is less damage on EQ which can subbed out for Earth Power)
EDIT: I realized it also loses the niche of spreading burns with Scald -- still useful as an Unaware wall but I'll put it in Tier II instead
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage <<< Groudon provides sun support, sets rock, switches into Rock- and Ground- types, good stuff.
Basically, being burned all the time lets Quagsire's mediocre bulk get the best of it and make it difficult-to-impossible to keep it at the high % it needs to actually switch into things.
If you want an Unaware wall, Clefable will probably do a better job of it by switching into stuff like Heracross and Conkeldurr and retaliating with Moonblast, while also just having a better offensive presence in the first place (and carrying Heal Bell for Gliscor stall). It's the physically bulkiest Water/Ground type (besides Swampert), but it loses in every other department to Gastrodon or Seismitoad, and Heatran can usually pivot into Fire-type attacks.
So like, a shitty Mega Lucario?-> Tier III (runs a Nasty Plot + Vacuum Wave set in standard)
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 184-218 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 130-153 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Last edited:
Tier III isn't "this stuff will still definitely be usable, even if it is worse" it's more like, "well, it could be potentially useful or it could be complete trash, we don't really know until we try it out." I'm trying not to put too much judgement on Pokemon in comparison to one another, just between themselves in Burning 'Mon and OU. In reality, I don't think the bulk of Tier III stuff will go beyond the D-C ranks in an official tier list, but they aren't confirmed-useless as something like Medicham is, so there's no reason to put in them in Tier IV.
For instance, Mega Sableye lost its utility set, which sucks and means it can't be in Tier II, but what about its Calm Mind set? It might not be enough to stay relevant, but on the off chance it is, it's worth looking at. That's the case with all of the Tier IIIs -- I don't think I'd ever run Toxicroak or Hippowdon, but in comparison to their OU-variants, being burned doesn't completely invalidate everything people used them for before. It's like that with all tiers -- I honestly think Raticate is hot garbage compared to the much-better Guts choices you have, but it's Tier I because its still a hell of a lot better than it is normally.
For instance, Mega Sableye lost its utility set, which sucks and means it can't be in Tier II, but what about its Calm Mind set? It might not be enough to stay relevant, but on the off chance it is, it's worth looking at. That's the case with all of the Tier IIIs -- I don't think I'd ever run Toxicroak or Hippowdon, but in comparison to their OU-variants, being burned doesn't completely invalidate everything people used them for before. It's like that with all tiers -- I honestly think Raticate is hot garbage compared to the much-better Guts choices you have, but it's Tier I because its still a hell of a lot better than it is normally.
Fair enough. I guess I'll wait for official tier rankings to happen before I try to make viability arguments.
Could Aurorus have a place in this meta? Snow Warning cancels the sun that will likely be popular and stacks residual damage, Rock typing means it resists Facade and has STAB Ancientpower to hit Fire types, and its support movepool is pretty decent with Light Screen, Stealth Rock, Encore and Dragon Tail/Roar. Unfortunately it lacks reliable recovery and Conk absolutely murders it, but maybe worth testing.
I also wonder if defense boosting moves will become more relevant here, since they'll screw over attackers that will rely on getting kills fast before they die to burn damage. Combining those with trapping and recovery moves could be interesting - Starmie looks good for this strategy with decent defensive stats and a Fire resist:
Starmie @ Lefties
252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpA
Calm, Natural Cure
-Whirlpool
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Cosmic Power
I also wonder if defense boosting moves will become more relevant here, since they'll screw over attackers that will rely on getting kills fast before they die to burn damage. Combining those with trapping and recovery moves could be interesting - Starmie looks good for this strategy with decent defensive stats and a Fire resist:
Starmie @ Lefties
252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpA
Calm, Natural Cure
-Whirlpool
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Cosmic Power
I've made some changes to the pre-viability rankings, namely adding all OU-ranked Pokemon to one tier or another, but also moving some things around and adding a few Pokemon that might have promise to Tier III. I've also made Tier II a little easier to navigate by bolding Pokemon that I think will be particularly strong, because some Pokemon in Tier II like Talonflame and Zard X only miss out on Tier I because they're already top-tier in OU.
Remember that these rankings are speculative and relative to existing OU rankings, not based on the meta as a singular entity. Here are the complete rankings:
And here are the changes:
Tier I
Aegislash *(it has a number of problems which made it unban-worthy, but its typing still shuts down certain Pokemon and it does a lot of damage even without Hex or physical attacks)
Alakazam *(moved up from Tier II because I think that it's better than its Mega form and one of the best special attackers in the meta)
Cofagrigus *(Mummy allows you to deal with Guts and -ate users in a pinch, and Hex is very powerful, especially if you opt for Nasty Plot)
Entei *(essentially becomes the best Extreme Speed user, and a very powerful attacker in general -- uses Flare Blitz over Sacred Fire for obvious reasons)
Floatzel *(moved up from Tier III -- even if its not a top tier threat, I still think it has a definitive niche as a rare, fast physical attacker, but time will tell where it ends up)
Houndoom (Mega) *(benefits from the presence of a strong sun setter and lack of burn damage compared to other attackers -- personally I see it as a top 10 Mega in the meta)
Huntail *(even if it can't SmashPass, I see it as a threatening setup sweeper on its own merits, now that it has much less competition)
Kangaskhan (Mega) *(a powerful Facade and powerful Seismic Toss make Mega-Mom a threat, albeit a very limited one without priority or PuP damage)
Reuniclus *(moved up from Tier II because I think its much better than its current OU B ranking in this meta, both as a Fighting check with Colburr and as a powerful setup sweeper in general)
Rotom (Heat) *(has a clear niche over its washing brother due to the ability to stay healthy turn-to-turn while still taking on threats like Talonflame)
Victini *(one of the most versatile attackers, and it's powerful V-creates aren't mitigated like most other physical attacks)
Volcorona *(still requires the same hazard-clearing support, but its a rare setup sweeper that doesn't get worn down each turn)
Tier II
Alomomola
Amoongus
Ampharos (Mega)
Azelf
Blastoise (Mega)
Blissey
Celebi
Cresselia
Dragalge
Empoleon
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gastrodon *(utilizes Earthquake but could just as easily use Earth Power)
Gengar
Hydreigon
Hoopa
Jellicent
Kingrda
Klefki
Kyurem
Latias
Latias (Mega)
Magnezone
Magneton
Manaphy
Nidoking *(misses out on Superpower and Sucker Punch, but still utilizes recoil-free LO special attacks just as well)
Omastar
Pidgeot (Mega)
Politoed
Porygon2
Raikou
Sceptile (Mega) *(misses out on EQ coverage and gimmicky SD sets, but it's basically the same)
Seismotoad
Slowbro (Mega)
Sylveon
Tangrowth *(sometimes utilizes physical moves but in general its special movepool + Regenerator allows it to function the same)
Tentacruel
Thundurus (Therian)
Togekiss
Venusaur (Mega) *(sometimes utilizes physical moves but it's mostly unchanged)
Whimsicott
Zapdos
Tier III
Arcanine *(it was once ranked in OU during the Mega Maw meta, but now that a defensive Fire type is more attractive, I could see it popping up again)
Bronzong *(with Heatproof you take less from Burn, but I don't know if that's enough to stay relevant)
Diancie (Mega) *(always goes mixed, often with full Atk investment -- loss of Diamond Storm power is a serious blow, but Moonblast shouldn't be underestimated)
Ferrothorn *(solely a hazards-bot and "don't touch me" wall -- no offensive pressure)
Hariyama *(probably outclassed by Conkeldurr, but I could see Fake Out + Bullet Punch having a niche)
Luxray *(neat potential as an actual physical Electric that does damage, but its kind of slow and worn down quickly -- I see hope for it, though)
Machamap *(IMO its outclassed by Conkeldurr, but it has higher Speed and special bulk, plus Close Combat > Superpower, so I won't write it off yet)
Mandibuzz *(people never rely on Mandibuzz for offensive prowess, but it sucks to be even more passive)
Mantine *(possible mixed wall and Fire-check, and Defog + Water Veil may give it a niche)
Mew *(its most popular set relies on WoW and a physical attack -- Mew is very adaptable, so it will probably have some place in the meta, but it's too soon to say what it'll be)
Raticate *(moved down from Tier I because IMO its outclassed by Swellow outside of Sucker Punch, but we'll see -- it has some promise)
Roserade *(its main niche of Toxic Spikes is dead, but it still might be usable)
Sigilyph *(probably still outclassed by other Magic Guard users, but its coverage, Flying typing and use of Stored Power set it apart)
Scoliopede *(still sets Spikes well and can pass Speed, but it loses all offensive pressure)
Skarmory *(not only do you lose offensive capabilities, but Sturdy is essentially useless -- still a strong wall, though)
Throh *(offensively outclassed by Conkeldurr, but as a bulky yet powerful phaser, there's no competition -- could be good)
Tier IV
Garchomp (Mega) *(good SpA, but waste of a Mega when there are Pokemon like Zekrom around -- if you can't use that base 170 Atk, why bother?)
Kyurem (Black) *(moved down from Tier III because CrashinBoomBang has shown us all the light that full-special Kyurem-B is outclassed by normal Kyurem)
Lucario *(its popular set, ESpeed, is dead while Special Sets are eclipsed by Mega Lucario)
Mawile (Mega) *(unbanned but bad -- I see no reason to use it)
Sableye *(can't spread burn or Toxic, otherwise pointless)
Staraptor
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns, because this is probably one of the last forms of this list before the OM has actual viability rankings.
Vote Burning 'Mon OMotM July -- feel the heat
Remember that these rankings are speculative and relative to existing OU rankings, not based on the meta as a singular entity. Here are the complete rankings:
Pre-Viability Rankings
Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.
There are four categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not nessecarily better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.
Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.
Aegislash
Alakazam
Chandelure
Cofagrigus
Conkeldurr
Drifblim
Entei
Floatzel
Genesect
Greninja
Groudon
Heracross
Houndoom (Mega)
Huntail
Infernape
Kangaskhan (Mega)
Lucario (Mega)
Reuniclus
Rotom (Heat)
Swellow
Ursaring
Victini
Zekrom
Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings. Bolded Pokemon are especially promising in this specific meta, even if they'd probably be ranked around the same place.
Alakazam (Mega)
Alomomola
Amoongus
Ampharos (Mega)
Azelf
Blastoise (Mega)
Blissey
Celebi
Chansey
Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Clefable
Cresselia
Dragalge
Empoleon
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gastrodon
Gengar
Heatran
Hydreigon
Hoopa
Jellicent
Keldeo
Kingrda
Klefki
Kyurem
Latias
Latias (Mega)
Latios
Magnezone
Magneton
Manaphy
Manectric (Mega)
Nidoking
Omastar
Pidgeot (Mega)
Politoed
Porygon2
Raikou
Rotom (Wash)
Sceptile (Mega)
Serperior
Seismotoad
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega)
Slowking
Starmie
Suicune
Sylveon
Talonflame
Tangrowth
Tentacruel
Thundurus
Thundurus (Therian)
Togekiss
Tornadus (Therian)
Venusaur (Mega)
Volcanion
Whimsicott
Zapdos
Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.
Arcanine
Altaria (Mega)
Breloom
Bronzong
Cobalion
Diancie (Mega)
Diggersby
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Glalie (Mega)
Gliscor
Goodra
Hariyama
Hippowdon
Jirachi
Jolteon
Landorus (Therian)
Lopunny (Mega)
Luxray
Machamap
Mandibuzz
Mantine
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)
Pyroar
Quagsire
Raticate
Roserade
Sableye (Mega)
Scoliopede
Sigilyph
Skarmory
Throh
Toxicroak
Tyranitar
Tier IV: Extinguished
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are negatively affected by the mechanics of the OM to the point where they're probably no longer useful. In addition, previously banned Pokemon which are no longer useful would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would either be much much lower (- 5 to 6 subranks) or it would be unranked entirely if we had true viability rankings.
Aerodactyl (Mega)
Aggron (Mega)
Azumarill
Beedrill (Mega)
Bisharp
Chesnaught
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Exadrill
Feraligatr
Gallade (Mega)
Garchomp (Mega)
Gyarados
Gyarados (Mega)
Hawlucha
Heracross (Mega)
Kabutops
Kyurem (Black)
Lucario
Mamoswine
Mawile (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Metagross
Metagross (Mega)
Rhyperior
Sableye
Sharpedo (Mega)
Scizor
Scizor (Mega)
Shedinja
Staraptor
Swampert (Mega)
Terrakion
Tyranitar (Mega)
Tyrantrum
Weavile
Zygarde
Obviously, this meta isn't developed enough for viability rankings. However, viability discussion is often what drives activity in an OM. In that vein, I'd like to start a sort of "pre-viability rankings" list where we don't rank Pokemon in comparison to each other, just in relation to themselves as they function in standard OU. This will mostly be based on theory, but I've played a bit of this meta and I'd be happy to play with anyone who sends me a message about it if you'd like to get some experience. The end goal of these pre-viability rankings (a better term might be "potential rankings") is to create a preliminary listing for those wanting to try out the OM, and if it gets popular enough, it will serve as the basis for solidified viability rankings.
There are four categories, and the categories mean nothing in relation to each other: Tier I is not nessecarily better than Tier II, they're just groups with a commonality.
Tier I: Rising Flames
These Pokemon were previously nonviable or somewhat viable in standard OU, but due to the mechanics of the OM, they have a clear and obvious niche in the metagame. In addition, previously banned Pokemon that are now usable would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that show a lot of promise (they could end up somewhere from B- to S eventually), and as such they should be tested to verify their effectiveness.
Tier II: Steady Pyres
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are either unaffected by the mechanics of the OM or they've gained minor buffs in the transition. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would be very similar (+/- 2-3 subranks) if we had true viability rankings. Bolded Pokemon are especially promising in this specific meta, even if they'd probably be ranked around the same place.
Tier III: Flickering Sparks
These Pokemon were previously anywhere from viable to nonviable, but they either lost something major in the transition or they have a possible new niche that can really only be revealed with testing. In general, this category consists of Pokemon that represent "gimmicks" that either require some sort of special support or have a potential niche that is fairly narrow. They're not necessarily bad -- they're level of effectiveness is just more uncertain. They could end up somewhere from D to B from true viability rankings, but they also may be unranked or even higher ranked depending on testing.
Tier IV: Extinguished
These Pokemon were previously viable in OU, but they are negatively affected by the mechanics of the OM to the point where they're probably no longer useful. In addition, previously banned Pokemon which are no longer useful would go here. In general, this category consists of Pokemon somewhere on this list whose ranking would either be much much lower (- 5 to 6 subranks) or it would be unranked entirely if we had true viability rankings.
And here are the changes:
Tier I
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns, because this is probably one of the last forms of this list before the OM has actual viability rankings.
Vote Burning 'Mon OMotM July -- feel the heat
For the record, here's how priority stacks on in this game:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (for sets that prefer to set up with a +speed nature)
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 125-147 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Luxray Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 102-121 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO
220 Atk Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 100-118 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO (Mega Houndoom has the same ATK as base form)
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 92-110 (26.9 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 87-105 (25.5 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Floatzel just misses out on a 4HKO with Aqua Jet on a neutral target, but will be interesting to pick off Fire Types, such as:
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 224-266 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Priority is going to have limited influence on this meta, so any attacker that is able to raise its speed (especially special attackers like Unburden Drifblim) is going to have an outsized impact on a match.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (for sets that prefer to set up with a +speed nature)
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 125-147 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 110-130 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Luxray Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 102-121 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO
220 Atk Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 100-118 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO (Mega Houndoom has the same ATK as base form)
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 92-110 (26.9 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 87-105 (25.5 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Floatzel just misses out on a 4HKO with Aqua Jet on a neutral target, but will be interesting to pick off Fire Types, such as:
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 224-266 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Priority is going to have limited influence on this meta, so any attacker that is able to raise its speed (especially special attackers like Unburden Drifblim) is going to have an outsized impact on a match.
