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Announcement BW Draft Suspect Process, Round 1 - Bite Me

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Qualification: BW Draft 2 Top 16 (somehow)

Vote: Ban

Reasoning: i think garchomp does have some positive impacts, namely in its ability to offensively check the other dragons and punishing jirachi teams, but i still lean towards banning garchomp as i think it puts too much strain on defensive pieces in the teambuilder with the variety of sets garchomp can viably run in a given matchup, while the garchomp user has to account for the drawbacks in the choice of sets like scarf or sd or mixed or band the pressure applied by garchomp to cover all of them for their opponent can be genuinely crippling for some teams that are otherwise solid into the dragons, and even during the game garchomp can remain ambiguous in what set it actually is for some time which allows it to force trades that are far more favorable for the garchomp user than the opponent, especially when considering how potent some of garchomps more common partners are when their shared checks are chipped or removed by garchomp, metagross or victini when the opponent has lost their bulky water, raikou or zapdos when the opponent has lost their bulky grass, alakazam or azelf when the opponent has lost their levitating psychic, etc. in short this shark has a bit too much bite for me.
 
I've noticed the trend at the moment seems to have the community leaning towards keeping Garchomp unbanned, and as a BW Council Member who did not believe this should have been put to a vote; I fear that would be a crucial point and undermine the competitive integrity of the format whilst it's still in the early stages.

To be clear, I was initially against the ban of Garchomp several months ago, only after extensive discussions with active community members was I convinced, and the recent Swiss 2 involving a reforged draft board really cemented my opinion.

I understand totally why, in a vacuum, Garchomp doesn't appear to be worthy of a ban, several people here have made comparisons to other dominant first pick pokemon which are considered healthy such as MegaGarde so simply being consistently first picked isn't a good reason and in a vacuum Garchomp isn't nearly as dominant as something like ADV Lax, USUM Koko, or even some of the various top tiers in gen 9.

Garchomp, taken as a single individual pokemon, does not at first seem to be uncompetitive at all, in fact it's an extremely honest albeit often overwhelming pokemon, it doesn't feel particularly unfun to play against and is really fun to use, taken at face value a pokemon like Jirachi is much less competitive for the format and isn't significantly worse than Garchomp to use.

So why do I believe Garchomp should be banned?

Black and White draft in its current form is an extremely controversial metagame amongst top players, several of which do not believe it should even be in competitive team tours such as DWL. The high variance of BW is a combination of both the crit mechanics of the generation and the sheer power of dragon types dictating that the pace of the game be extremely fast/offensive as it is near impossible to react defensively to dragon types when they all have so many options at their disposal.

I believe that Garchomp should be banned, and every single dragon type should be pointed much more aggressively to weaken the offensive capabilities of drafts with a high tier dragon as a whole and reduce the consistency of getting double dragons in a draft (Jscurf must be stopped.) This would raise the skill ceiling in the draft process and slow down the metagame considerably to allow a more balanced approach to the game be viable. I still expect BW to be offensive even with all these adjustments, but the discrepancy will be much more reasonable.

I urge you to vote not with Garchomp in a vacuum in mind, but for the metagame as a whole and how much healthier it is without Garchomp - and with a much harsher pointing on dragon types in general.

Swiss 2 was some of the most interesting and fun drafting I've seen in BW, and while an unfortunate personal tragedy resulted in me having to bow out during swiss, the games I did get to play were of a very high quality and I'm looking forward to playing more in the future.
 
Qualification: DWL BW


Vote: Ban

I strongly disagree with the point that Chomp isn't as dominant as top mons in other Gens, even ADV Lax (Zapdos is not too far off). Mega Gard for example can be somewhat limiting drafting-wise due to the lack of role compression whereas Chomp has all sorts of routes to go at the 2.08 and 3.01. The gap between Chomp and the next echelon in BW is extremely noticeable and exacerbated by Chomp's ability to shine on pretty much any style of play. It being one of the best scarfers in the tier that puts it just above the base 100s and Lando I/Thundy T significantly limits HO gameplans. As this thread has mentioned, it is pretty much unwallable, but it doesn't even need an SD up a lot of the time to break with its absurd Dragon Ground stab. Its speed tier allows it to sequence within games well without needing scarf vs most of the tier, making Band and LO viable options most weeks. Mixed sets with 140 BP draco can strongly punish sets that focus too much on checking physical scarf/SD. Sub or Endure Salac paired with immunity to sand also being something that teams have to account for if they don't have low opportunity cost priority is difficult for opponents as well. I don't agree at all with the point that Chomp "Needs Scarf/Salac/Yache". Chomp is not meant to 6-0 games on its own, it just stands out as a breaker, dragon revenger, potential wincon, trader, and hazard setter way more than anything else in the tier does. With the lack of Chomp answers in the tier, many players may feel forced to use a fat physdef bulky water as their initial Chomp check (which isn't even reliable into SD Yache lines) and as a result Chomp enables soooo many Pokemon that struggle with fat waters (Offensive Fires, Weav, Scizor, your own waters, etc), further allowing it to work with a vast amount of options on the 2.08 and 3.01 wheel. Chomp with Weav especially felt absurdly strong on our DWL draft that went 3-1 (and could've gone 4-0 if I didn't choke finals lol). Chomp to pressure the waters/steels paired with Weav to Pursuit many of the frail faster mons that force Chomp out (supplemented by Chomp baiting ice moves) matched up very strong every single week.

I think if no ban wins, it should probably be alone in a 20-point tier like River said, but even then, something similar has been done in SS in DCL this season and I think Chomp def distinguishes itself more than the 20-pointers there. Ultimately, I think Chomp is significantly more dominant than No.1 picks in other gens and makes the first pick too strong over the others right now.
 
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Qualifications: BW Draft II Top 16, ZTL Classic Circuit Top 8, MPL

Vote: Ban

The gap between how much prep Garchomp forces both in the builder and while drafting compared to Jirachi or Terrakion feels significantly higher than Koko -> Zera USUM, MGarde -> LandoT/Garchomp ORAS, Meow -> IVal/Torn SV. Not only that, each aforementioned tier's pick 1s have way more reasonable counterplay (and also less flexibility in matchups usually) than however much BW Garchomp has (scarf, yache, lum, haban, salac, fat, lorb, in many matchups multiple of these are viable/should be respected and guessing wrong with counterplay punishes pretty hard). I also want to emphasize the point many people have already mentioned that Garchomp does not suffer the same weakness to rocks as many of the other top tier dragons + Thundy as well as naturally outspeeding all of them makes it very distinct how much stronger it is.

To add on all of this, this is very much only looking at Garchomp in a vacuum. The amount of pressure and prep this mon forces alone can allow the rest of the draft to perform well very easily (e.g. pressuring waters/steels for Weavile, bulky grounds like Donphan/Claydol for Raikou, etc.). It's just not very fun to prep or play against all things considered. IF it were to not be banned, I think it should be in its own tier at like 20 with Jirachi/Terrak under at 18.
 
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Qualified via MPL Win; have played ~5 BW tours individ/team

I will be voting do not ban.

I do not see Garchomp as more threatening or more of a builder terrorist than any of the other FRP. KyuB, Thundy-T, Terrak, and Rachi are all extremely threatening and require measures taken to prevent you from getting run over (and in Jirachi's case it might just rob you anyways).

The things that a draft should have to check Chomp are (imo): Bulky Water, Steel(s), strong ice attacking options (Piloswine is good enough ffs, or a scarfed hp ice, every water has ice beam), and an outspeed.

Almost every draft wants these anyways? You still need the steels vs other drags, maybe two if you got a fraudulent one like Coba; you still need the speed vs 108s (especially Terrak). bulky waters are always good.

I have played chomp twice and it can be very difficult to find sweeping sets. Making progress, sure; but its a first round pick, it's going to be impactful. I found scarf chomp and chainchomp to be optimal ~80% of the time. Sub can be good but is not unique to Chomp as a phys dragon sweeper, heck even drei can do it. I do not think tank chomp is a very potent set or what I generally want to be running with my first overall pick either. Chomp is also "honest". It's not gonna rob games through flinches or para hax, if you value that at all.

I have yet to see chomp exert dominance over the metagame in a way stuff like ADV Lax, USUM Koko, or ORAS MGarde; and find it much closer to DPP infernape in impact. Still the best, still impactful, but broken? I don't see it. In the previous BW drafts 1/2 not a single garchomp made a top 8; in 1 not even one in round 4 of bracket; where are the results? Maybe bump the price if you truly think its too centralizing, but a ban this early in the metagames development seems hasty. And if it is banned, I doubt it ever comes back.

To my understanding garchomp caught a lot of heat in a DWL survey (which I can't find in this thread), a format where BW was a flex slot and most people played once or twice total? And looking at the rosters, I don't recognize many of these players as BW mainstays (although I'm sure they're strong players). If I'm to take the replays Alex listed as the best, "cherrypicked" replays of chomp's strength, two of which were from DWL(you can read wrax or river's comments), it doesn't look super threatening in those. I would rather give the metagame time to develop.
 
Heya, we are enforcing a policy that if you do not have qualifications for this suspect, your post will get deleted. This is to ensure that conversation remains relevant and of higher quality. All posts from this message onwards should include how you qualify for this suspect. I will be deleting every single one that has ''I didn't qualify, but'' in the post in some way or form (bar Wraxius post due to being of high quality and well researched). If you don't qualify for the suspect, feel free to contribute to the conversation in the BW Draft Discord.
 
Heya, we are enforcing a policy that if you do not have qualifications for this suspect, your post will get deleted. This is to ensure that conversation remains relevant and of higher quality. All posts from this message onwards should include how you qualify for this suspect. I will be deleting every single one that has ''I didn't qualify, but'' in the post in some way or form (bar Wraxius post due to being of high quality and well researched). If you don't qualify for the suspect, feel free to contribute to the conversation in the BW Draft Discord.
Why do you have to delete posts that have already been made? You say you are enforcing a policy, but it does not say in the OP that people who dont have reqs cant participate in the discussion. Is this a site rule? Enforcing it going forward seems fine but it feels weird to delete posts and direct people to a discord that is neither linked or mentioned in the OP.
 
Qualification: Top 16 in BW Swiss II
Vote: Do Not Ban

I've been very back-and-forth on whether or not to vote ban. Initially, my instinct was to reject the garchomp ban simply because it didn't seem too powerful in the high-powered BW metagame. However, considering what garchomp does to the draft board, my opinion shifted to be very similar to what Phonytail has said - that a garchomp ban promotes metagame diversity, and is good for the draft board overall. In thinking about how I would change the current BW draft board, I agree that in general the top tiers, especially, the dragons, tend to be a little too cheap, which would make me lean to putting chomp all the way up to 21 points, at which point it ought to just be banned. However, on further reflection, I think that making any bans at this point in the lifetime of BW draft is premature. Consider all the players who have reqs to vote in this suspect. Most of them have only participated in a handful of BW draft tours, and not for lack of trying. There simply haven't been many BW draft tours.

While some people do believe that the newness of BW draft should not dissuade us from banning garchomp, I would beg to differ. In the few BW draft tournaments I have participated in, the quality of drafts, preparation and execution was extremely inconsistent. Perhaps you could simply say that the players are just bad at the game, but in a metagame like ADV draft, it's not uncommon for new players to still make quite competent drafts. This is because the metagame is much more stable - while people do experiment, there is much more consensus on which pokemon and combinations are the best, and there is a clearly defined standard of drafting. As an example, in ADV draft, even new players tend to know that the round 1 picks are snorlax, zapdos, tyranitar, raikou, metagross, salamence and celebi. If you look at the draft boards in Emerald Open VI there are relatively few drafts that do not respect standard round 1 theory, even though hundreds of players signed up and a very large percentage of them had never played ADV draft before. By contrast, in BW tournaments, it's a pretty common sight to see people take mons like weavile, scizor and ferrothorn in the first round, and you can find all of these pokemon as a round one pick on someone's draft in BW Swiss II.

This may seem completely irrelevant to whether or not garchomp should be banned, but this comparison illustrates just how much remains to be discovered and solidified about the BW Draft metagame. As new strategies emerge, it's inevitable that garchomp's place in the metagame becomes more clear. Players will find better ways to draft, prepare and play against garchomp, and conversely garchomp players will find better ways to draft, prepare and play with garchomp. Whether this will make garchomp more or less dominant is of course unclear, however banning garchomp now would work to prevent this metagame development from taking place.

Banning a very clearly overly oppressive pokemon early in the history of a new format is certainly not uncommon, but I think the fact that there is so much division on whether or not to allow garchomp is proof that it does not meet that high standard. In addition, many of the arguments used to justify garchomp's ban could be applied to the other early round 1 picks in BW. So, ultimately, I think more BW draft tournaments (preferrably some with and some without garchomp) need to be played, on Smogon and in the community in general, before an informed decision can be made about garchomp. For now, I would advocate for garchomp to remain on the board, but hit a price point of 20 points, though I think the ban discussion certainly should be opened up again later in this case, unless it becomes clear that garchomp is no longer a problem.
 
I have been able to play 2 Garchomp drafts so far (MPL and the ongoing Cucumber Cup bracket) and I've not faced a lot of Garchomp drafts either. Yet, it feels way too early to me for chomp to get banned.
A common issue that has arised in this thread so far is that Chomp is a problem during the builder and can make progress easily for its teammates.

I honestly fail to see how this is different from any of the offensive leaning top tiers in the meta right now. Thundurus, Terrakion, both Kyurems, hell I would even expand this to analytic Starmie (with or without rain), Hydreigon, Lando-T, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus and Victini, all of these pokemon present tremendous offense, sometimes with a way to set up, that is not easy to answer. This is just the nature of draft, just like it is to build against the most dangerous options these pokemon can use.

Chomp's unique traits, being its typing and speed tier, makes it an offensive powerhouse that is hard to immediately answer defensively (floater, steel, fat asses like cress and suicune, reflect, attack debuff). It also has plenty of offensive answers (ice moves, dragon moves, scarfers, spikes/tspikes). When I build with Chomp, it's not clear cut what the best set is, since you always have to worry about a random scarfer trying to snipe you, hence why I often default to scarf on more offensive builds, especially when there is a dragon on the other team. Band, LO, Salac, Lum, Yache are all very tempting, but these are all much easier to offensively check than scarf is. Scarf is not perfect either, since you generally fail to OHKO anything with bulk assuming they are healthy, leaving you to be checkable defensively (fat mons) or offensively (bulky scarfers switching in).

I've been looking at a couple replays trying to find any where Chomp demonstrated being anything more than a good pokemon, and so far nothing has convinced me that this guy is any more broken than the other strong top tiers and strong offensive pokemon in this meta.
Most importantly, this tier is very new, and play very differently than pretty much every other draft tier, and such there is still room for a lot of exploration and adaptation.

Might be off-topic, but one issue with the BW draft meta that arised to me is that the offensive threats outnumbers the defensive answers to these threats, since you are competing with 7 other players to have access to these valuable tools (be it a good spinner, good steel types, bulky mons that are not ass). Could this explain why in part Chomp is so hard to play around? Then again, genuinely good defensive pokemon like Cresselia have around 25% draft rate (lol?), which just show how much room for grow the tier have in general.

In closure, Garchomp does not feel banworthy to me at the moment, since it did not show any clear sign of being more unhealthy for the metagame as other strong offensive pokemon and the novelty of the format as a whole means there is a lot of room for improvement and adaptation.

Also here's some Chomp replays I personnally took part into:
MPL:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5draft-907457
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5draft-2520913306-5rtvud6dy13emqtowrlj1d6086f2aw9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5draft-2515455134-6e4h505lqfhw1op7j1b1wndbhj1rribpw
Cucumber Cup:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5draft-2675637455
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5draft-2672918592
 
I am not a fan of suspect tests this early into a tier's lifespan, especially with majority of the voices/arguments coming from DWL, which is a singular tour where people are drafting and playing BW draft for the very first time. Obviously the teams and builds are gonna bave issues. We need to give the tier some time to develop on its own, that is how grassroots scenes develop, and if people at DWL do not want BW draft, then take it out. BW draft can survive on its own and will probably develop better this way. If down the line people do find garchomp a tier above the rest, then perhaps a suspect can be done then, just not now.

On a different note, while suspecting garchomp may not be the correct move, we could unban a few mons that can more reliably check garchomp. For example -

The mons that outspeed chomp:
Latias: has ice beam and dragon moves to hit it super effectively, immune to ground.
Keldeo: has hp ice and icy wind for 4x super effective, dual stab both do good damage to chomp, and it can tank a hit too.
Thundurus-I: has hp ice, immune to ground, can potentially bulk up vs it, can taunt rocks
Tornadus-T: has icy wind and hp ice, hurricane also hits it decently hard, can taunt rocks, immune to ground

The mons that underspeed chomp:
Manaphy: has ice beam, very good bulk to tank hits from both sides, can threaten burn
Genesect: has ice beam, almost always getting a spatk download boost, has priority to potentially pick off weakened chomps
Blaziken: this mon gets checked by most chomp variants anyways

Poison/Bug/Normal Gems: giving more mons another viable item

These are all viable options to include in the current metgame. I believe if we were to make any changes to the tier, we should consider these ones first. Keep the chomper.
 
While I agree with the sentiments above that it's not massively stronger than the FRP, in fact I think KyuB and Hydregion are functionally more threatening, I think Garchomp's speed and defenses tip it over the edge. Speed should be an obvious factor, Garchomp is the fastest Dragon in the Dragon tier. Having the guaranteed jump unboosted on what will be half the pool's strongest offensive Pokemon can be an overwhelming advantage and immediately puts the opponent on the backfoot in prep, and Haban Berry is a pretty shitty consolation option to stave it off. The Speed tier for a Choice Scarfer makes setup extremely difficult for every DDer and most very offensive drafts as well, which isn't super problematic, but it's worth bringing up as well. The defensive traits are a pretty underrated part of what make Garchomp oppressive. A top mon having defensive sets and versatility isn't problematic on its own either, although it massively raises the floor in Garchomp's contributions to every matchup when it can at minimum lay rocks and either trade hits or dish out big recoil damage. However, the huge bulk and only two weaknesses that makes TankChomp viable also makes it really hard to revenge kill. With Yache or Haban, it can tech itself for virtually any revenge killer and often forces the opposing Pokemon to stay in to try and prevent free setup, as an unpunished Garchomp at +2 is pretty much a 2 for 1. This results in nasty catch 22s where Garchomp just kills whatever stayed in to try and put damage on Garchomp for the revenge killer, who now still probably can't safely kill it.

However, despite all these reasons on paper why Garchomp is so broken, I couldn't actually find many replays to substantiate it. I probably watched like 30 games with Garchomp, and only occasionally saw what made it broken on occasion. I planned to vote ban on Garchomp and will still probably vote ban on it due to the outsized tax it takes on prep, but I also understand why those only exposed to it in individuals think it's not such a big deal.
 
TLDR: I vote to not ban; people are overselling the fact of Garchomp's amazing capabilities/how it's unpreppable and that in such a newly brought up meta, encouraging people to vote to ban a mon with just few experience in the format as a whole is just a terrible basis to begin with, arguably host another tour as this was most's exposure to the format as a whole.

You can ignore this part but I'd like to list my credentials on why I think I can offer insight in the Chomp ban, I have done approximately 4 individual drafts of BW (2 of which being Cucumber Cup where I got booted out of pools by its finalist Jozin (my goat) and a person I severely underestimated (BookofConke) and the other being in ZTL classic circuit, where I placed in the top 12, where I led a 6-1 record (loss at the 7th round where the game didn't matter) during its Swiss stage, and losing to Freetle For Wii U then g_heathbar in bracket). And I have also done 4 team tours where I've helped build/draft or primarily played BW, one of which being MPL, where my record was 2-4 for reference. So I've had a ton of experience, by my opinion, in terms of this meta.

There are two major concerns that come up in the argument for banning Garchomp; it's a difficult mon to prep for because of its flexibility and raw power and then imagine the healthier meta with Garchomp banned.

On the grounds of the first concern, undeniably this is a true argument on the surface, yes, it's an amazing mon who against the teams whom didn't draft properly can feel overwhelmed by the dominant combination of both a dragon in gen 5 and a ground to punish one of a classical checks to dragons, steels. It's a mon whose typing makes it take almost all hits besides the occassional hp ice that most teams have to slot in just to make sure Garchomp doesn't set-up or flat-out dish out a ton of damage, so it can afford to be an annoying pestering wall, like a sub toxic eq set against the right teams. And if neither an offensive or a defensive set works, you got the good old reliable rocks that you can throw on it or even a scarfer with Draco as it's the fastest dragon of the tier. Yea, a mon like that should be banned but I think a lot of people fail to understand that Garchomp just can't be all that. It's much more flexible than probably any mon in any other format, but it just can't win it all... Yes, you can be a SD set, but it often fails to faster mons who either naturally have ice moves or just run hp ice, which if you aren't drafting in BW, you're asking for it in general by not just Garchomp. Yes, you can be a banded or scarf set, but you run the obvious flaws of running such a set and even if that move just is Outrage or Draco Meteor, two of the most dominant moves in the game, its much easier to prep for. Yes, you can run a defensive set, but it often isn't great against a team in general as the meta is rather explosive to state the least. And yes, you can just throw up rocks and click buttons, but this often leads to either a 1 for 1, or just rocks up. In terms of prepping for Garchomp, the simplest way to put it is that you need a mon faster than it and you need a mon that can take a +2 eq/outrage and revenge back; that's been my general proceedings on how to handle the mon. And to be honest, you do this even without even thinking about Garchomp. I think in this meta particularly, despite whether or not Garchomp gets banned, these two things have generally been staples in every BW draft I've seen to truly succeed, especially with just how the meta is. So if you find yourselves struggling as such, it's more or less that you need to wrap your head around how the format is as it's the most different to any other generation in my opinion, besides like ADV with the phys-special split. Ofc, Garchomp is the number one pick of this meta for all the reasons higher stated but it's much more of just faulted for problems surrounding the meta as a whole. And this more or less leads into the second concern that most people state, with Garchomp banned, the meta becomes healthier.

Dragons as a whole are a problem, because the meta so clearly wraps around them unlike any other meta and for new people, that's a struggling concept to get behind. People who aren't used to this meta will learn to understand by their next draft, there are certain things needed. Most experienced BW drafters understand that you need a mon 108 or faster, so you have mons that can speed-tie or outspeed mons like Terrak, Chomp, Infernape, all the 100 speed tiers, etc... because they are very strong. If not that, you usually either have amazing priority or a really reliable choice scarfer, whose often used to handle dd mons like Salamence, Dragonite, Haxorus, etc or scarf Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, etc... BW in my opinion is probably the toughest format to draft for because its the format that requires actual thought... Banning Garchomp isn't going to make the meta healthier, it is going to feel the same, For starters, I strongly believe that in a meta dominated by Dragons, the ban of Garchomp, whose arguably the least threatening dragon in terms of using its dragon moves of the high pointers, will make that problem worse. Secondly, and correct me if Im wrong, but most people who are arguing to ban Garchomp just played from DWL and is indirectly correlating Garchomp being the problem with just the format in general. In a meta that's still working to be defined, the banning of Garchomp just makes no rational sense. I implore people to hold off on voting to ban the mon because like prior drafters have stated, the meta is just kicking off and banning Garchomp is just people wanting to make hasty decisions, either because they got a bad taste of the mon due to just not understanding the format, or just want to leave an ever-lasting effect on the BW draft meta due to egotistical reasons. If Garchomp supposedly still feels "dominately" broken, then have another suspect test after another tour with BW in Smogon because now people will have a much better understanding of the meta and hopefully realize that Garchomp isn't exactly why the mon itself felt so hard to prep for, but rather a failure to draft properly to begin with in such a new format. You'll see that Garchomp isn't much of a concern, still understood as the best mon, but not a mon that's clearly broken.
 
While I agree with the sentiments above that it's not massively stronger than the FRP, in fact I think KyuB and Hydregion are functionally more threatening, I think Garchomp's speed and defenses tip it over the edge. Speed should be an obvious factor, Garchomp is the fastest Dragon in the Dragon tier. Having the guaranteed jump unboosted on what will be half the pool's strongest offensive Pokemon can be an overwhelming advantage and immediately puts the opponent on the backfoot in prep, and Haban Berry is a pretty shitty consolation option to stave it off. The Speed tier for a Choice Scarfer makes setup extremely difficult for every DDer and most very offensive drafts as well, which isn't super problematic, but it's worth bringing up as well. The defensive traits are a pretty underrated part of what make Garchomp oppressive. A top mon having defensive sets and versatility isn't problematic on its own either, although it massively raises the floor in Garchomp's contributions to every matchup when it can at minimum lay rocks and either trade hits or dish out big recoil damage. However, the huge bulk and only two weaknesses that makes TankChomp viable also makes it really hard to revenge kill. With Yache or Haban, it can tech itself for virtually any revenge killer and often forces the opposing Pokemon to stay in to try and prevent free setup, as an unpunished Garchomp at +2 is pretty much a 2 for 1. This results in nasty catch 22s where Garchomp just kills whatever stayed in to try and put damage on Garchomp for the revenge killer, who now still probably can't safely kill it.

However, despite all these reasons on paper why Garchomp is so broken, I couldn't actually find many replays to substantiate it. I probably watched like 30 games with Garchomp, and only occasionally saw what made it broken on occasion. I planned to vote ban on Garchomp and will still probably vote ban on it due to the outsized tax it takes on prep, but I also understand why those only exposed to it in individuals think it's not such a big deal.
So like I found out why its hard to find chomp results. I looked through the tournament data and I'm excluding ZTL since the format has two drafts and is different from any of the other tournaments. Also I gotta ask why we exlcuded Swiss I from qualification since it was like the only tournament Garchomp has done anything in other than DWL. Then we put Swiss II which literally has chomp banned.

TLDR: Regardless, I qualify through Top 4 at Cucumber Cup, Top cut the first BW Swiss, and then was 1 round off of qualifying for both BW I and the second swiss. My vote is Do Not Ban. Chomp is a great mon and might warrant a price increase but looking through the data Chomp lowkey might be IF MAN.

In Martini literally only one of the Chomp drafts went positive. They had records of 2-3, 3-2, 2-3, 1-3, 1-4. Not exactly ban worthy records with the only positive one being barely above .500. In BW I 0 Chomps made top 16 with only 1 in Top 32. In Cucumber Cup none of the chomps made it past round 2 despite the fact 6 made it into the bracket. In BW II 0 Chomps made top 8 with 2 in Top 16. The literal only tournaments Chomp performed well in were DWL, and the first swiss. Other than that this thing has literally no good results in the qualification of 3 of the individual tournaments used as qualification metrics and poor results in 1 of the team tours.

Even in DWL of the positive tours it had it went 5-2 as opposed to a mon like Rachi that went 6-3. Similarly in BW Swiss I 3 Chomps made top 15, with 3 Rachis, 3 KBs, and 3 Terraks. While I definitely won't deny that Chomp showed its power at Swiss I with the only Chomp loss to another non Chomp mon being in finals. There is literally only one tour in which it significantly outperformed the rest of the R1s and more than half underperformed significantly. As a result, I can safely say that Chomp has not shown to be significantly better outside of one tournament as proven by its lack of consistent results across multiple tournaments. So can we not ban the IF man chomp and instead as an alternative potentially look to raise its price to like 19 instead.
 
Vote: do not ban

As someone not in the BW circle much, I started this as pro-ban, but after reading most of the discussions and posts, I've shifted to unban. I simply haven't seen anything as oppressive as people keep saying in any of these replays or posts.

I see games where checks are worn down by good sequencing, and Garchomp simply trades well in most cases. It looks like either any Dragon in that position would have had the same effect, or Garchomp was simply played better than its opposition the argument of its value floor being extremely high is something i agree with and it does trade favourably almost always but as the 19/20 point mon of the group whatever the new boards may look like thats to be expected i do believe a extra point tier for it is the best course currently.

Yes, it's the best mon in the tier, and yes, Dragons are extremely oppressive in BW, but I feel Garchomp is just the critical mass of top-tier Dragons that pushes people to feel the board is better without it. I think the same result could be reached by banning any of the top-tier mons, which I also think is too early.

The meta is far too new to be making these changes. I do love the idea of the suspect test, and given a few months of Chomp life I could easily be convinced otherwise, but I haven't had to account for it any differently in my drafts or play than Terrak, Thundy, or Kyurem-B—mons which I see just as much grievance with. While I do agree Garchomp is a cut above, it's not that far above based on what I've seen in MPL or DWL and played in both Swiss.

If this is revisited, my mind could easily be changed. I just think we need a much bigger sample size and more time to let the meta develop with more higher level play to take from.
 
With 35 DNB votes out of 85, it is no longer possible for Ban to meet the 60% (51) threshold. Garchomp will remain legal in BW Draft at large. We encourage people to keep experimenting with the format going forward; the end goal should be the strongest possible tier and the strongest possible boards, and the best way to get there is collaboration and experimentation.

Look forward to some great games in the upcoming MPL as well as this year's DWL and the end of Swiss II! Thank you everyone for voting.

If you haven't voted yet but would like to, the suspect will remain open until Sunday.
 
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