Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Punchshroom]

Gurdurr again

Once again, I feel like you are undermining Gurdurr's capabilities. While Drain Punch and Mach Punch are givens, its coverage move of either Ice Punch, Payback or Stone Edge means few pokemon can be absolutely safe. Why is Bulk Up not a staple move? Because Gurdurr doesn't have to function as a late game bulky booster, it could even function as a utility tank with its aforementioned STABs and disruptor with Knock Off. This is a really underrated move on Gurdurr: many of its switch-ins hate losing their items, especially Eviolite which can even allow Gurdurr to combat Golbat; few pokemon can also make use of Knock Off while sporting enough offensive presence and survivability without a recovery move taking up a moveslot. This makes Gurdurr both an effective tank and failsafe with its STABs, and lures in walls easily to cripple them.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Once again, I feel like you are undermining Gurdurr's capabilities. While Drain Punch and Mach Punch are givens, its coverage move of either Ice Punch, Payback or Stone Edge means few pokemon can be absolutely safe. Why is Bulk Up not a staple move? Because Gurdurr doesn't have to function as a late game bulky booster, it could even function as a utility tank with its aforementioned STABs and disruptor with Knock Off. This is a really underrated move on Gurdurr: many of its switch-ins hate losing their items, especially Eviolite which can even allow Gurdurr to combat Golbat; few pokemon can also make use of Knock Off while sporting enough offensive presence and survivability without a recovery move taking up a moveslot. This makes Gurdurr both an effective tank and failsafe with its STABs, and lures in walls easily to cripple them.

sawk get's knock off too and gurdurr does have to function as a late game booster as long as something walls it because it can't do big damage without boosting nore spread any status or hazards and can only knock off what will probably be the same pokemon again and again. I'm not saying knock off is a bad move by any means, I personnaly love it but it's far from uncommon and if you want a bulky knock off user well there's plenty of other stuff that can fill that role. You say gurdurr doesn't waste a slot on a recovery move but drain punch is miles away from being reliable recovery because practicly every team has at least 2 mons that take near nothing from it. If you don't want to waste a move on recovery on a knock off user then I'd actualy consider throh over gurdurr for lefties and for phazing which is very appreciated on a knock off user. A bulky fighting is just not a very interesting niche in this meta and if gurdurr doesn't do absolutely nothng he'll probably just kill off one poke and never heal off because the opponent will prefer saccing golurk or something than getting swept and then gurdurr will get reveng killed and probably won't hurt his revenge killer too bad with mach punch which is definately not A worthy. As for coverage you can see it both ways, yes he has good coverage when you add all 3 but he usualy runs only one of the 3 (and if not he's usualy outclassed by other fightings) so he might be slightly unpredictable but I'd rather see it as a mon that suffers from 4 move slot syndrome since predicting your opponent to make a mistake is never a reliable strategy even in pokemon. I'm not saying gudurr is plain bad but hey mid B is not plain bad either, just right for a mon that fits the niche of being good against offensive teams with scoli, missy and golurk as only fighting resists.

 

[Punchshroom]

Thing is, Gurdurr's bulk and priority ensure he is not outclassed by other Fighting-types. Sawk wrecks anything but is easily revenge-killable and its speed isn't enough to compensate for its low bulk; Primeape is fast and has U-turn, but is notable for its lesser power to Sawk and is also frail; Gurdurr may not be that strong initially but packs a good wallop against offensive mons and has the option to boost. Its vulnerability to special attacks has already been touched upon, but what of its matchup against physical attackers? I find it far too easy to just lob in Gurdurr against the majority of physical attackers (that are hit at least neutrally by its STAB), even the likes of Zangoose and Carracosta, and expect to win/scare them off, all with health to spare. Sure Musharna hardwalls it, but it's not like the other Fightings are taking down a healthy Musharna either.

If Kangaskhan is an offensive mon's Achilles heel, Gurdurr is the same to almost every physical pokemon, even the bulkier ones like Piloswine, Mandibuzz, Metang and Regirock. It is also the #1 reason why Garbodor and Weezing want Clear Smog at all. While Gurdurr may not be as immediately effective as the other Fightings (a bulky Fighting as you say isn't particularly needed), but it offers good enough utility to stand out as a tank, a good proponent for bulky offense. It's not like Gurdurr is particularly easy to KO either: a healthy Gurdurr has been known to survive Brave Birds while special attacks do a lot but rarely OHKO, meaning these pokemon are subject to Drain Punch + Mach Punch shenanigans. The most common attack that does OHKO belongs to Jynx who is vulnerable to Mach Punch, especially after SR. While Gurdurr is dealt with by (most) physical walls, the opponent's offensive pokemon are at least kept in check.

If the sweeper doesn't OHKO Gurdurr they're taking a double whammy which can really weaken or outright KO them; even if they barely 2HKO they might as well give up that sweeper or switch. Gurdurr can do decently against almost anything but most physical walls in a one-on-one situation, while a direct switch-in isn't risk free even with famed physical walls like Tangela and Alomomola. Kind of like Golurk actually :/ (lesser power in exchange for better matchups), which is good enough for A for me. I wouldn't argue against Low-A, but will against anything less.

 

[Raseri]

Gurdurr isn't moving right now. It is very effective in the current metagame.

Also D-rank can be split up now, Different degrees of shit! (and tropius)

 

[Nozzle]

HIGH

Ditto
Gabite
Heatmor
Octillery




MID

Beartic
Bronzor
Dodrio
Exploud
Mr. Mime
Regigigas
Tropius
Wailord



LOW

Dwebble
Huntail
Natu
Pineco
Solrock
Wynaut

idk i havent used many of the pokemon but i feel this would be close enough

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Huntail is probably Top or Mid D because it's not that terrible, yeah it doesn't have much of a niche but it is pretty capable of posing a legitimate threat after a Smash, it's just usually outclassed, so Mid or Top D seems better suited to it imo.

I don't know about the others but just a thought.

 

[ryan]

Top D

- Cool stallbreaker with SubBU or rain sweeper with Swift Swim

- Can single handedly stop sweepers and turn the tides of a game in your favor

- Awesome wallbreaker with good mixed attacking stats and a sick movepool. I've used it to great effect on a few teams in the past. Main problem is slow but not bulky.

- Cool Stealth Rock setter with decent Attack and good resistances

- Actually a really, really cool Pokemon. About as frail as Jynx physically, but bulkier specially, has good Speed, good Special Attack, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, etc. Lots of cool things to work with.

- Bulkier than Exeggutor, almost as fast, just loses out on some offense and trades 4x weakness to Bug for 4x weakness to Ice (which really isn't a huge deal since Jynx bones them both anyways)


Mid D

- Super bulky with some great resistances and immunities, but super setup fodder for lots of things

- Fast Pursuit for Jynx, but it's pretty much the main niche it has over other birds that are faster, stronger, or both

- Pretty deceivingly strong, but super slow, super frail, and weak to Rocks

- Not a terrible Pokemon, but little reason to use it over Gorebyss

- Hazard bouncer and general nuisance, but weak to nearly every hazard user as well.

- Quick hazard setter with access every hazard and Pain Split, but has no offensive presence

- Trappers can win you games by taking out key Pokemon; Wynaut is no exception, but its HP isn't fantastic, while it needs Eviolite to take hits and strike back (meaning no Leftovers to help it out throughout the match and no Custap to pop a surprise Destiny Bond)

Bottom D

- See Pineco, but without Toxic Spikes and Pain Split (and cuter)

- Probably only niche is really strong in Trick Room, but Trick Room sucks

- Fuzznip will kill me, but whatever. It's not good.

- Why is this D-rank to begin with?

- Water Spout, like that's it

I don't really have super strong opinions about any of these Pokemon, but this is the way I personally see D-rank. I also wouldn't mind if certain Pokemon dropped (Dwebble, Solrock, Wailord), but I don't really care all that much. It's just D-rank. Only ones I feel super strongly about are Beartic and Exploud, and to an extent Mr. Mime.

 

[Punchshroom]

it alsoYeah I think Mr. Mime is really cool as well. The issue is that it already faced competition with Gardevoir, and since the latter is losing in the arms race to Jynx...yeah. Mr. Mime is a staple in Baton Pass teams though, so that's noteworthy.

SubBU/SD Beartic looks cool, but I am concerned with the 4MSS. It needs Superpower/Low Kick/etc. coverage move for Ice resists, but without Aqua Jet its speed and typing leaves it easy to pick off. It also competes with Jynx as a Rain-abusing Ice-type.

 

[watashi]

sub sd beartic doesnt need aqua jet. it uses its decent bulk to set up on alomomola and other walls, sorta like sub sd lickilicky. low kick and icicle crash provide decent coverage for it.

 

[Punchshroom]

Lickilicky has good bulk and only one weakness. Beartic has average bulk and 4 weaknesses. Besides, Aqua Jet is handy for things like Zard.

 

[watashi]

it still sets up on alomomola which is the main answer to physical ice types (often the only aswer) on stall teams. also you're missing the point and changing the topic, the reason for my post was to explain that it has no reason to use aqua jet over its other moves. yeah it's useful for hitting charizard but that's one of the few pokemon it does get extra coverage on and even then beartic will usually be under a sub meaning icicle crash will hit it harder. also aqua jet is piss weak and doesn't even ko zard after sr

 

[Celever]

I actually completely agree with @Treecko 's list except Ditto -> Mid D and Wynaut and/or Huntail -> Top D. That's just my thoughts though.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Top

Ditto - 2 of my best teams ever had ditto, this shit ain't D but w/e
Tropius - harvest gimmicks are best gimmicks
Regigias - relies on hax but hey it actually works suprisingly often (sadly)
Heatmor - giga drain is cool and unique, it's speed issue is a litte bit helped through sucker punch and since you run modest, you hit pretty damn hard.
Dodrio - 100 speed is really cool in general and this shit hits pretty damn hard, pursuit and free item slot and a little more durability set it apart from swellow. Pursuit doesn't just hit jynx, it's actually a pretty easy move to use since dodrio often means your opponent will switch to a rock type right away.
Hauntail - A little underated thing this is, not that outclassed now that jynx forces byss to lose a slot to signal beam.

Mid

bronzor - The weird set I once posted was cool even if it was a complete momentum killer but now buzz add's up to skunk :s
Exploud - wallbreaker is cool on paper but I've tried it twice and was very deceived both times, hyper voice just isn't strong enough, you're always 2hko'ing what you want to ohko and 3hko'ing what you want to 2hko
Mr.mime - kind of comlpetely outclassed at pretty much everythig (not only by jynx) except baton pass which I don't really consider a good and reliable strategy espescialy with buzz now in the tier
Gabite - Not only is it not very good but it's also impossible to fit it into a team
Pineco - what treecko said
Beartric - Doesn't beat any common wall bar tangela, is super slow so super easy to revenge kill (even in rain it's not that fast)
Natu - champion at taking grass knots and low kicks, no but seriously I guess it shits on stall and can hopefully live some hits if it outspeeds and screens

Low

Dwebble - what treecko said
Solrock - (@Treecko it screens, SR, and boom's)
Wynaut - bad gothorita with a super slow encore
Octillery - insane coverage alone + nothing else = still bad
Wailord - it's as big as it's niche is small

 

[Aasgier]

Yeah, it's just D-rank.

Top:
Ditto - It is good and can fulfill a variety of roles, and steel sweeps. Always cool.
Exploud - Wallbreaker with great attacking stats. Slow, though, and not bulky.
Gabite - Cool typing and relatively fast for a SR setter.
Heatmor - Great mixed attacking stats, but slow and frail. Still fearsome especially if a speed boost is passed to it.
Huntail - Inferior Gorebyss, but not bad by any means. Also Sucker Punch/Crunch access.
Mr. Mime - Staple on Baton Pass teams. It also fucks on Riolu because it is immune to Roar.
Tropius - Bulkier than Exeggutor, very annoying to face and has Harvest.


Mid:
Beartic - Bulky wallbreaker, can easily handle Tangela, but otherwise not good.
Bronzor - Huge set up fodder, but hard to break without powerful attackers.
Natu - Great stallbreaker, never bad... if it wasn't frail.
Regigigas - Bulky as hell and incredibly hard to take down once it gets going. Ghosts or Gurdurr are mandatory just because of this guy.

Low:
Dwebble - Good SR/Spike setter, that's it.
Leavanny - A full stop to Riolu (/w Magic COat) that is not weak to Dark. That's its only niche nowadays, while it can still perform a decent attacking role (it needs no defensive investment to do its defensive tasks after all).
Octillery - TR is its niche. It is good in NU Doubles if that counts.
Pineco - A worse Dwebble, despite Toxic Spikes and Pain Split access. Mostly for being slow as heck and huge Taunt bait.
Solrock - What was its niche again?
Wailord - What Sweet Jesus said.
Wynaut - A worse version of Gothorita.

Yes, I added Leavanny in Low D, but only because I have something new to say about it: I no longer believe Leavanny is a good Pokémon, and finally understand why it is E-rank.

My opinion about the mantis changed a lot after I started to think about Adamant (it could afford the speed loss under the Sun) - but who can run Adamant too... yes... Sawsbuck. And Adamant Sawsbuck - with Wild Charge instead of Swords Dance - performed extremely well on my Sun team. Better than Leavanny, who did better than Jolly Sawsbuck.

 

[Nozzle]

Actually thats a good point. Huntail has a better niche now due to having Crunch to beat Jynx. Maybe thats enough for Low-C?

 

[Punchshroom]

Top:
Ditto - It's only good against all out boosters (even then stuff like Carra gives it trouble); defensive pokemon, status sweepers and bulky boosters are all but unphazed by it.
Gabite - Cool typing and relatively fast for a SR setter, what Aas said.
Huntail - Outclassed by Gorebyss but isn't terrible in its own right. Not having Sucker Punch alongside Shell Smash blows though.
Mr. Mime - Staple on Baton Pass teams, but competes with Gardevoir in other roles, the latter of which is already outshone by Jynx.
Tropius - Bulkier than Exeggutor, very annoying to face and has Harvest. It has massive 4MSS though, and DD is too slow and weak.


Mid:
Exploud - A special attacking Normal-type with Scrappy is cool...until you realize there's nothing Exploud can do that other Normals can't already. Being slow and frail doesn't help.
Beartic - Similiar to Exploud, is a physical Ice-type really notable when we have other Ice-types that can do more damage or outspeed way more? Being a slow Ice-type is never a good thing unless you can counteract some of your weaknesses.
Heatmor - Decent coverage, but is outclassed by every other Fire-type in NU bar Monferno. Sucker Punch isn't changing anything.
Bronzor - Huge set up fodder, but hard to break without powerful attackers.
Natu - Great stallbreaker if it wasn't so frail.
Regigigas - Bulky as hell and incredibly hard to take down if it doesn't get statused by everything (faster because Slow Start). Being helpless against Ghosts and Grounds for the most part is pretty bad already (Golurk: Hi~), but no way to recover that health back easily just stunts it so bad.
Pineco - A better Dwebble, Toxic Spikes and Pain Split access allow it to perform its singular niche to the fullest, but is massive Taunt bait and can't spin worth a damn.

Low:
Dwebble - Good SR/Spike setter, that's it. Oh yeah, it has marginal offensive presence.
Leavanny - Aasgier, stop preaching about how it counters Riolu with a move it hardly carries, otherwise Magic Coat Alomomola would be fantastic as well.
Octillery - A Water-type with Fire and Grass coverage would've been fantastic, but "slow and frail" syndrome ruins everything.
Solrock - Dual Screens + Exploding or a Rock-type with healing and burning moves. Would have been good if not for mediocre stats and bad typing.
Wailord - Exploding Whales!!!
Wynaut - It can net a kill (or two) or Encore to buy turns, but can hardly fight back for itself. Highly vulnerable to status, special Dark-types (Shiftry), and physical Ghosts (Golurk, Banette).

 

[Aasgier]

@Punchshroom: It was a joke to mention I finally saw the light imho. Needed an excuse to end it once and for all :p .

Let Leav' rot in E-rank.

 

[tennisace]

I agree with @Treecko except I think Huntail should be top D, if only because it's still a decent user of Shell Smash. Not having Sucker Punch legal with Smash sucks though.

 

[Annoyer]

id put solrock in top d (or mid d i guess...) and definitely not bottom d (or e) because it has a couple of niches that separate itself from other rock types
1) srer with leviate, not fighting weak, psychic resistance , decent base speed (70), can burn with wisp, and has recovery with morning sun which is all pr good and can make it more viable than regirock or golem on certain teams
2) dual screener that can set up rock and go kaboom which is really good for ho/screen teams because you wont have to waste another slot using rocks on another mon - solrock is prob my fav dual screener
ive used it a couple of times pretty successfully and it can really take advantage of burning shit like golurk and recovery + ground immune makes it not spikes weak and allows it to wall kanga or other normal types such as tauros throughout the whole match

 

[Lasagne]

Top D

- Cool stallbreaker with SubBU or rain sweeper with Swift Swim

- Can single handedly stop sweepers and turn the tides of a game in your favor

- Awesome wallbreaker with good mixed attacking stats and a sick movepool. I've used it to great effect on a few teams in the past. Main problem is slow but not bulky.

- Cool Stealth Rock setter with decent Attack and good resistances

- Actually a really, really cool Pokemon. About as frail as Jynx physically, but bulkier specially, has good Speed, good Special Attack, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, etc. Lots of cool things to work with.

- Bulkier than Exeggutor, almost as fast, just loses out on some offense and trades 4x weakness to Bug for 4x weakness to Ice (which really isn't a huge deal since Jynx bones them both anyways)


Mid D

- Super bulky with some great resistances and immunities, but super setup fodder for lots of things

- Fast Pursuit for Jynx, but it's pretty much the main niche it has over other birds that are faster, stronger, or both

- Pretty deceivingly strong, but super slow, super frail, and weak to Rocks

- Not a terrible Pokemon, but little reason to use it over Gorebyss

- Hazard bouncer and general nuisance, but weak to nearly every hazard user as well.

- Quick hazard setter with access every hazard and Pain Split, but has no offensive presence

- Trappers can win you games by taking out key Pokemon; Wynaut is no exception, but its HP isn't fantastic, while it needs Eviolite to take hits and strike back (meaning no Leftovers to help it out throughout the match and no Custap to pop a surprise Destiny Bond)

Bottom D

- See Pineco, but without Toxic Spikes and Pain Split (and cuter)

- Probably only niche is really strong in Trick Room, but Trick Room sucks

- Fuzznip will kill me, but whatever. It's not good.

- Why is this D-rank to begin with?

- Water Spout, like that's it

I don't really have super strong opinions about any of these Pokemon, but this is the way I personally see D-rank. I also wouldn't mind if certain Pokemon dropped (Dwebble, Solrock, Wailord), but I don't really care all that much. It's just D-rank. Only ones I feel super strongly about are Beartic and Exploud, and to an extent Mr. Mime.

This, except for:
Huntail -> Top (maybe even Low C tbh)
Wynaut -> Low
Solrock -> Mid
Regigigas -> Mid
Oh and maybe Octillery -> Mid, cos it is p strong and has good coverage

 

[Ewil]

Agreed with Treecko's list and the changes made by Lasagne21 !

 

[Raseri]

Alright, i tried combining what people have to see what D-rank is going to look at, so far I have this:

HIGH

Beartic
Ditto
Exploud
Gabite
Huntail
Mr. Mime
Tropius



MID

Bronzor
Dodrio
Heatmor
Octillery
Pineco
Regigigas
Solrock


LOW

Dwebble
Natu
Wailord
Wynaut


this seems like a decent middle ground. I really don't think Solrock is low-d, it has quite a bit of utility with recovery, WoW, and a normal resist. There are a few Pokemon i'm iffy about (Gigas, Natu, Wynaut). But most of it seems pretty clear cut. So if there are any changes from my list here you'd like to see, please post and justify it!

 

[Lasagne]

Natu to mid imo for being the only Magic Bouncer and actually being useful on like Voltturn teams sometimes to keep hazards off while still getting momentum w/ U-turn

 

[Raseri]

Also I think the following Pokemon should be added to low d:

Girafarig, Mothim, Lunatone, Granbull, whiscash. Also las wants emolga in low d. So if you approve/disapprove please post too!

they all have some niches (Granbulls is just not being THAT bad)

 

[Lasagne]

Don't forget Lopunny! It has a really cool lead set utilising Encore and Copycat, and can Baton Pass Substitutes to other team members. It can also do the whole Switcheroo Flame Orb thing since the orb doesn't activate due to Klutz. Lopunny's a p cool mon and is easily Low, if not Mid D Rank imo