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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Oh sweet, discussion on Zoroark. I'll jump in on this.
Choice Specs is by far my favorite Zoroark set in this meta. I used to use Nasty Plot Zoroark a lot in BW1, but a test run in BW2 gave me pretty bad results. Haven't tried Sub+Plot, though that may end up being a little better.
I'd like to focus on Choice Zoroark though. Overall, pre-BW2 Choice Zoroark was... Well, it was okay. But once I found out the BW2 tutors gave it Trick (aka. The day the games came out), I got my ass on Showdown and took Choice Specs Zoroark for a spin. Results? Fantastic. First, Choice Specs let it hit very hard right off the bat, which is pretty useful because let's be honest, 60/60/60 isn't really helping you set up with Zoroark. Second, SURPRISE TRICK MOTHAFUCKA! Mid game you have no idea how much that has helped me out. I'd Trick set-up sweepers who would otherwise be very dangerous (i.e. "Scizor" vs Volcarona or something), so if I knew I wouldn't get much use out of Zoroark, I'd use Trick to stop a dangerous sweeper from setting up. Tricking some stuff that totally doesn't see it coming has got to be the best feeling ever. Or, of course, as PK Gaming said, OHKOing Deoxys-D's with Specs Dark Pulse :)
tl;dr: Trick on Zoroark is amazing.
Choice Specs is by far my favorite Zoroark set in this meta. I used to use Nasty Plot Zoroark a lot in BW1, but a test run in BW2 gave me pretty bad results. Haven't tried Sub+Plot, though that may end up being a little better.
I'd like to focus on Choice Zoroark though. Overall, pre-BW2 Choice Zoroark was... Well, it was okay. But once I found out the BW2 tutors gave it Trick (aka. The day the games came out), I got my ass on Showdown and took Choice Specs Zoroark for a spin. Results? Fantastic. First, Choice Specs let it hit very hard right off the bat, which is pretty useful because let's be honest, 60/60/60 isn't really helping you set up with Zoroark. Second, SURPRISE TRICK MOTHAFUCKA! Mid game you have no idea how much that has helped me out. I'd Trick set-up sweepers who would otherwise be very dangerous (i.e. "Scizor" vs Volcarona or something), so if I knew I wouldn't get much use out of Zoroark, I'd use Trick to stop a dangerous sweeper from setting up. Tricking some stuff that totally doesn't see it coming has got to be the best feeling ever. Or, of course, as PK Gaming said, OHKOing Deoxys-D's with Specs Dark Pulse :)
tl;dr: Trick on Zoroark is amazing.
A little off, topic but am I the only one who thinks deo-d isn't broken? I honestly don't understand why people think he is. He was uu for a long ass time as well and he didn't cause much trouble. Can anyone tell me why they think it's broken without using arguments about how versatile is it or how easily is sets up hazards?
Um, no, we can't make an argument for Deoxys-D being broken without mentioning that it's versatile and sets up hazards laughably easy, because that's exactly what makes it so broken. There is literally no way in the game, if Deoxys-D is using the correct set, to prevent it from getting up at least one layer of hazards outside of Taunt and Magic Bounce. It will always get Stealth Rock up, and that's exactly what makes it so dangerous. Hazards can ruin Pokemon and teams alike, as evidenced by Moltres not being top tier OU right now. Having a guarantee to get them up, like a get-out-of-jail-free card so to speak, is pretty stupid to keep around in OU. There needs to be at least some way to circumvent the problem of Deoxys-D, and don't tell me everyone's going to start spontaneously running Xatu on their teams.
also wow 900 posts, I feel special
Being versatile is a poor argument. Mew is versatile and it has no problems. Setting up hazards easily is a bad argument. FS Terrakion does that easily as well and no one is complaining. The reason why I asked to bring up arguments not using versatility or hazard setting, is because it's fucking stupid. You can apply versatility and easy hazard setting to almost anything. Deo-d has two good counters, xatu and espeon not to mention all of the ckecks that can easily 2HKO deoyxs-d. And if a team is that weak to hazards and they don't have a spinner, that's their problem.
Firstly, those two counters, are pretty sub par pokemon anyway outside of screwing with Deoxys-D but whatever. Secondly, its actually difficult in practise to stop. Deoxys-D can pretty much run any attacks + item it wants, and if you don't guess its set correctly, you can pretty much be fucked from Turn 1. The fact of the matter is, the most dangerous Deoxys-D sets have Magic Coat, or Mental Herb which screw you over if you Taunt it, and eliminates one way to stop it spiking. The set I most have trouble with, is Spikes / T-Wave / Magic Coat and Night Shade, with a spinblocker + SR Garchomp or Terrakion to screw you over. Sure, on the face of it, you can set up with a RP Landorus, or a Thundurus, but the trouble is you don't know what moves / item its running, and thats what makes it an utter bitch to deal with. Iv tried to use CB Tar and got owned by Superpower + Fight Gem, attempted a U-Turn with Genesect and been owned by Tangla Berry, and so on. It is tremendously hard to stop it getting at least 1 layer, and its not that hard for it to get up 2.
Sure, you can run a spinner, and be spinblocked for a while and o.k, maybe you manage to beat the spinblocker. By that time, the damage has been done, the hazards have done their work, and since you just killed their spinblocker, they can bring in something else that will force you out, forcing something else to take the hazards again and so on. Maybe you have only played poor players with Deoxys-D, idk, but Lavos and I have both played quality Deoxys-D players, and its tremendously tricky to handle.
What's the difference between Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, as far as utility goes? S is fast, D is bulky. Players have gotten a little more creative as far as ensuring Deo-D gets hazards up (Tanga Berry made an appearance, I never saw it with Deo-S), but the problem is the same: It's just not possible to stop him from setting up. Not without weakening your team in some way just to guarantee you shut them down, which speaks of Suspect material.
I would imagine, if you are a dick about it, one could pressure stall Xatu and Espeon out of PP, just like one can pressure stall rapid spinners our of rapid spin PP if you are insane enough. You don't even need to have a spin blocker if your insane and willing to wait like 60 turns. Unfortuntly such tactics are out of the grasp of today's hyper offense players that just want a quick battle *sigh*.
Rapid Spin cannot be pressure stalled very easily considering it's 64 PP eats up both SR and Spikes combined, and if you have Taunt on your Deo-D I would imagine Xatu and Espeon would end up winning the PP battle. Even if not they could switch out every 10 turns or so and you wouldn't be able to predict when to set up a hazard without a crystal ball.
On a secondary note Ginga's post almost perfectly sums up why I believe Deo-D cannot exist in a balanced BW.
On a secondary note Ginga's post almost perfectly sums up why I believe Deo-D cannot exist in a balanced BW.
Yea I thought so too, the trouble is its still getting down at least 1 layer, two if its running Tanga. The tricky thing is, you need to bring in Genesect, u-Turn, and then bring in something faster than it to prevent it getting up the second layer. The really annoying thing about this however, is that Deoxys-D can tank the U-Turn, Thunder Wave your fast sweeper or whatever, and get its layer down. Sure you limited it to a single layer, but it also crippled your fast sweeper or whatever in the process, plus, its not uncommon for someone to carry a secondary offensive user of SR which means they still get 2 layers up anyway.
There is also the problem that technically, Genesect doesn't really stop Deoxys-D. Sure, it cripples it, but its still getting one layer down min, and then its done its job. Then there is the issue of Genesect being widely regarded as suspect potential, suspects checking pokemon (such as Deoxys-D) does not mean said pokemon (Deoxys-D) is not a suspect.
Also just a general note, (because I can see where this is going) by all means discuss Deoxys-D + Genesect, just don't list pokemon you would like to be banned etc etc since this isn't the place for it. If you want to discuss these pokemon, try to discuss it with relevance to the general metagame. Its a thin line I know but it makes moderating this thread a lot easier :)
There is also the problem that technically, Genesect doesn't really stop Deoxys-D. Sure, it cripples it, but its still getting one layer down min, and then its done its job. Then there is the issue of Genesect being widely regarded as suspect potential, suspects checking pokemon (such as Deoxys-D) does not mean said pokemon (Deoxys-D) is not a suspect.
Also just a general note, (because I can see where this is going) by all means discuss Deoxys-D + Genesect, just don't list pokemon you would like to be banned etc etc since this isn't the place for it. If you want to discuss these pokemon, try to discuss it with relevance to the general metagame. Its a thin line I know but it makes moderating this thread a lot easier :)
Guys instead of trying to prevent Deo-D from setting up two layers of hazards, why not simply 2HKO it, allowing it to set up only SR? I can can name you plent strong attackers that are faster and fit perfectly in most teams. Gengar, Bug Buzz Genesect, CBTar (doesn't outspeed but OHKOes), Specs Keldeo, LO Keldeo, Specs Latios LO Alakazam, Sheer Force Landorus, CB Garchomp, Thundurus-T, LO Garchomp, Volcarona, Scarf Toed and CB Terrakion. Notice how there is a wide variety of offensive Pokemon that can prevent Deo-D from setting up 2 layers of hazards. If you don't want to be set-up bait after you 2HKO Deo-D with your choiced move, then Landorus, LO Keldeo, LO Garchomp, Volcarona, Gengar, Alakazam and Genesect are all perfectly viable alternatives.
And i haven't even touched on the Magic Bouncers or rapid spinners yet.
So i ask again are we going to ban a poke because it can guaranteed set-up SR? Because i know pokes that can do this job way better.
To me Deo-D is a very threatening mon, that excels in its role, but is totally manageable if you know what you do. You just gotta prevent him from having his way with you in the lead match up, and then if you are able to keep offense pressure, all that Deo-D will be is a nuisance. If stall was more viable in this meta, then i could think that Deo-D might be broken, as Deo-D fucks it up really big time, but as of now he is fine.
And i haven't even touched on the Magic Bouncers or rapid spinners yet.
So i ask again are we going to ban a poke because it can guaranteed set-up SR? Because i know pokes that can do this job way better.
To me Deo-D is a very threatening mon, that excels in its role, but is totally manageable if you know what you do. You just gotta prevent him from having his way with you in the lead match up, and then if you are able to keep offense pressure, all that Deo-D will be is a nuisance. If stall was more viable in this meta, then i could think that Deo-D might be broken, as Deo-D fucks it up really big time, but as of now he is fine.
Sure, you bring up a good point, but most of the pokmeon on your list get owned by Thunder Wave followed by a SR / Spikes which is half the problem. Landorus and Thundurus-T are the best options I have found, mostly because many of the above pokemon present undesirable outcomes. For instance, Terrakion needs to hit 2 Stone Edges in a row, AND avoid the 25% chance at a para, same with Hydro Pump scarf Toed (and pressure eats away at that HP, iv had instances where I finally killed Deoxys-D and had 0 Hydro Pump PP left thanks to Pressure), Volcarona and Latios get owned by Thunder Wave etc etc.
Even if they kill Deoxys-D, in the case of some of them, your fucked from the next few turns. Garchomp is locked into Outrage and can be revenge for a 1 for 1 trade (but you took out a sweeper of theres and got SR up) or gives you an opportunity to set up Dragonite / Salamence / Landorus / Thundurus / whatever on a choice locked EQ), Latios is -4, paralysed and anything can set up on it and so on.
Primarily what makes Deoxys-D so hard to handle, is that fact that it can give you a fast SR / Spikes from a very early on, prevent opposing pokemon setting up (via Taunt or Thunder Wave) in the main time, and prevent opposing hazards being set up as well. Its also very bulky, and there is NOTHING stopping your opponent from thinking "Hmm this guy has a Keldeo that could be Specs + a Ferrothorn and what looks to be a defensive Politoed, ill lead with something else and bring Deoxys-D in on Toed / Ferro later and set up my hazards then". Sure, prediction goes both ways, but you do see matches were Deoyxs comes in slightly later to set up those hazards, which can be very annoying if done right.
Even if they kill Deoxys-D, in the case of some of them, your fucked from the next few turns. Garchomp is locked into Outrage and can be revenge for a 1 for 1 trade (but you took out a sweeper of theres and got SR up) or gives you an opportunity to set up Dragonite / Salamence / Landorus / Thundurus / whatever on a choice locked EQ), Latios is -4, paralysed and anything can set up on it and so on.
Primarily what makes Deoxys-D so hard to handle, is that fact that it can give you a fast SR / Spikes from a very early on, prevent opposing pokemon setting up (via Taunt or Thunder Wave) in the main time, and prevent opposing hazards being set up as well. Its also very bulky, and there is NOTHING stopping your opponent from thinking "Hmm this guy has a Keldeo that could be Specs + a Ferrothorn and what looks to be a defensive Politoed, ill lead with something else and bring Deoxys-D in on Toed / Ferro later and set up my hazards then". Sure, prediction goes both ways, but you do see matches were Deoyxs comes in slightly later to set up those hazards, which can be very annoying if done right.
Guaranteed set up of SR isn't at all broke (or rather, if it is, why isn't pinsir uber), and it's certainly possible to limit deoxys-D to one layer. (While it might be difficult to OHKO deoxys-D there are plenty of faster mons who can 2HKO)
Anything with focus sash and access to SR can guarantee the set-up (except against espeon/xatu, who deoxys-D is helpless against while more offensive mons such as Garchomp, Terrakion and even azelf break through)
I'm not really understanding the espeon hate either, tbh it's the best dualscreener in the game right now which helps immensly against the omnipresent HO teams, and it screws over stall just by virtue of its ability. Other than that it can sub pass reliably because of all the switches it causes or just outright kill things with massive special attack...
As for talking about how deoxys-D can set up one layer of spikes then another mon can set up SR, forretress can do this as well (if you want to beat taunt mental herb even exists)...while also having toxic spikes, rapid spin to annoy other hazard mons and volt switch for momentum. Once custap berry is released forry will arguably even outclass deoxys-D.
Anything with focus sash and access to SR can guarantee the set-up (except against espeon/xatu, who deoxys-D is helpless against while more offensive mons such as Garchomp, Terrakion and even azelf break through)
I'm not really understanding the espeon hate either, tbh it's the best dualscreener in the game right now which helps immensly against the omnipresent HO teams, and it screws over stall just by virtue of its ability. Other than that it can sub pass reliably because of all the switches it causes or just outright kill things with massive special attack...
As for talking about how deoxys-D can set up one layer of spikes then another mon can set up SR, forretress can do this as well (if you want to beat taunt mental herb even exists)...while also having toxic spikes, rapid spin to annoy other hazard mons and volt switch for momentum. Once custap berry is released forry will arguably even outclass deoxys-D.
As a Deoxys-D player myself, I can agree it is definitely overpowered. Nothing else in the metagame can set up hazards with reliability combined with offensive momentum. Thanks to all the different options it has in its arsenal, there is no absolute strategy that can be deployed to stop it doing its job. Even if the opponent does have a decent counter, you can take advantage of their necessity to stop you by predicting their switch-in and therefore gain the upper hand offensively. In fact, unlike many players I don't always lead with Deoxys-D myself; I play around with my opponent first before finding the perfect opportunity to get the hazards down and get a clean sweep with another team member. This obviously depends on the opponent's team though - if they don't have a good way of stopping Deoxys-D getting up hazards, I'll lead with it and get them up straight away.
Simply put, you have an advantage by default if you have hazards on the opponent's side. Deoxys-D puts you in the driving seat within a couple turns with near impunity.
I like Rocky Helmet Deoxys-D at the moment - it allows you to potentially block Rapid Spin if the damage causes the opponent to be KOd. This means you can stall out the common Rapid Spinners if you have Recover.
Simply put, you have an advantage by default if you have hazards on the opponent's side. Deoxys-D puts you in the driving seat within a couple turns with near impunity.
I like Rocky Helmet Deoxys-D at the moment - it allows you to potentially block Rapid Spin if the damage causes the opponent to be KOd. This means you can stall out the common Rapid Spinners if you have Recover.
Yea no.
Sure, Forry gets all hazards, but its the biggest pile of set up bait AND it utterly kills your offensive momentum. With Deoxys-D you can lead with it, prevent your oppponent from setting up, spam layers and then die, paving the way for your next sweeper to come in and force pressure on your opponents team. Custap Forry can do this to an extent, but its shut down via Taunt while Deoxys-D can prevent this via Mental Herb, Magic Coat or Taunt. Forry can run Mental Herb too I guess, but then its limited to only one layer (due to being so fucking slow) so personally, id still rate Deoxys-D much better.
Technically Magic Bounce works unless you run Skill Swap I guess (which I have also seen T_T)
EDIT @ below, wouldn't really call running Latios a " huge liability" in this metagame (or Latias / Starmie for that matter)
Yeah Ginga when factoring in T-Wave things get a bit more difficult, i will admit this. But still as you said, there are Pokemon who can still 2HKO and not care about T-Wave. Double Boosting Thundurus-T murders Deo-D teams, easily setting up on Deo-D. Same with Sheer Force Landorus. Garchomp also fairs pretty well, as with a CB it can 2HKO with EQ or Outrage, and with a Life Orb it 2HKOes 62.5% of the time. EB Genesect usually OHKOes with Bug Buzz. Same with Jolly CB Genesect. And CBTar always OHKOes with Crunch and doesn't really care about T-Wave (not that Deo-D would use it on Ttar). So you still have 5 pokes that pretty much prevent Deo-D from getting up more than SR. Again without counting Magic Bouncers and Rapid Spinners, which counter Deo-D in a vacuum. In real play they may forfeit momentum, but it is usually worth it.
You know, I was thinking about the state of the metagame and how stall is virtually non-existent now. I figured a neat way to take advantage of this is by throwing together a team of Deoxys-D and five priority users (2 of which are boosters if I ever need to wallbreak). Not expecting to get anything out of it, it was surprisingly effective. While most games did come down to the last pokemon it consistently won games. The fact that priority is such a powerful force in this metagame when it really shouldn't be is somewhat worrisome. Even more so is the fact that this is all only possible because of Deoxys-D's backing. Also, straight up 2KOing it is possible, but then one can just as easily take advantage of its predictability and force a good matchup from the beginning (ie. if I see Genesect I'll probably lead with mamo depending on the circumstances).
one thing I notice that Deoxys-D can do that Deoxys-S can not do is come in latter in a match to spike up. This is particularly useful in a situation where you have been tricked a choice item (particularly scarf). I used to consider tricking it a choice item good enough for stopping it (making it only have SR on the field). But to my dismay, I found that it has enough bulk to come in latter just to get another layer of spikes off. Unless you have a sweeper that is particularly Effective against Offensive teams you are screwed.
@alexwolf many of the Pokemon you listed are choiced which can make you setup bait for the next Pokemon coming in. That is really a position the Deoxys-D user is trying to accomplish. However you recognized that and I will address the users of Life Orb (btw you listed a lot of things twice). Many of those Pokes fall to the momentum grabbing prowess of Genesect and Rotom-W (seem like a familiar pair? Scarf sect+specs Rotom-w). You can threaten a OHKO or a U-turn/Volt-Switch and since those offensive pokes don't have protect, you have to really be on your toes in order not to forfeit momentum right to the opposing team. Accracy issues/getting locked into outrage is another issue that ginganinja pointed out.
Double Dance Thundurus my friends, Double Dance Thundurus. Force Deo-D teams to run Mamoswine or (the more you centralize a "Style" the easier it is to deal with...generally, with rain offense the obvious notable exception) otherwise be absolutely shit stomped by Double Dance Thundurus.
Or basically anything immune to T-Wave that can ohko or 2hko Deoxys-D. Thundurus-T will set up; Landorus-I can 2HKO with Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power so all Deo-D gets up is 1 SR; Landorus-I or Landorus-T can set up Swords Dance; some double U-turn combo (Scizor + Genesect) can take out Deoxys-D and only let it get 1 hazard up...
Not saying that Deoxys-D isn't bad for metagame health, but I'd like to see people try a variety of viable strategies out first, extensively, before just spouting Deoxys-D is poor for the metagame or needs to be banned or any of that.
Of the major weather archetypes, Landorus-I / Landorus-T / Garchomp / Terrakion can set up on Deoxys-D for Sand, Tentacruel / Thundurus-T can spin or set up for Rain, and Ninetales (Hypnosis) / Volcarona can stop it for Sun. All of these examples ignore the other Taunting / Magic Bouncing / Genesect / Scizor / Tyranitar methods of dealing with Deoxys-D as well.
So again, while I 100% understand the concern that Deoxys-D might be breaking the metagame (and I can even be convinced that it should be suspect eventually), I'd prefer people give earnest, creative efforts in dealing with it in the meantime.
This thread in the past few pages has given plenty of options to do so...just try them out and fit them into your teams.
Or basically anything immune to T-Wave that can ohko or 2hko Deoxys-D. Thundurus-T will set up; Landorus-I can 2HKO with Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power so all Deo-D gets up is 1 SR; Landorus-I or Landorus-T can set up Swords Dance; some double U-turn combo (Scizor + Genesect) can take out Deoxys-D and only let it get 1 hazard up...
Not saying that Deoxys-D isn't bad for metagame health, but I'd like to see people try a variety of viable strategies out first, extensively, before just spouting Deoxys-D is poor for the metagame or needs to be banned or any of that.
Of the major weather archetypes, Landorus-I / Landorus-T / Garchomp / Terrakion can set up on Deoxys-D for Sand, Tentacruel / Thundurus-T can spin or set up for Rain, and Ninetales (Hypnosis) / Volcarona can stop it for Sun. All of these examples ignore the other Taunting / Magic Bouncing / Genesect / Scizor / Tyranitar methods of dealing with Deoxys-D as well.
So again, while I 100% understand the concern that Deoxys-D might be breaking the metagame (and I can even be convinced that it should be suspect eventually), I'd prefer people give earnest, creative efforts in dealing with it in the meantime.
This thread in the past few pages has given plenty of options to do so...just try them out and fit them into your teams.
I myself find Deoxys-D quite easy to deal with on my team, it just requires the right team building to keep it from getting up too many layers of hazards. I find the Classic Choice Band Scizor to be the ultimate "check" to Deoxys-D, doing a whopping 82.89%-97.70% to Max HP SpD variant, pretty much a OHKO with rocks or Sandstorm. However, the problem is Deoxys-D Leads, which I find incredibly annoying and overwhelming at times.
Mixed Genesect can also 2HKO it at +1, however it then again requires another powerful hit to take it down. With the combination of Genesect and Scizor, Deoxys-D is only limited to one layer, however having to build a team with these two members on it just to deal with one Pokemon is a bit redundant. I definitely can't wait to see this thing in a suspect test, because the ability to wall most of the meta game on top of being able to defend itself with it's decent attack and speed is a bit scary to go up against. I think Genesect is a decent answer to Deoxys-D, however if it ever ends up getting banned that might definitely increase Deoxys-D's usage. I'm interested to see how these future suspect tests effect the meta game.
Mixed Genesect can also 2HKO it at +1, however it then again requires another powerful hit to take it down. With the combination of Genesect and Scizor, Deoxys-D is only limited to one layer, however having to build a team with these two members on it just to deal with one Pokemon is a bit redundant. I definitely can't wait to see this thing in a suspect test, because the ability to wall most of the meta game on top of being able to defend itself with it's decent attack and speed is a bit scary to go up against. I think Genesect is a decent answer to Deoxys-D, however if it ever ends up getting banned that might definitely increase Deoxys-D's usage. I'm interested to see how these future suspect tests effect the meta game.
Another good way of dealing with Deo-D is Torn-T + Genesect. Lead with Torn-T, which is a great lead anyway, and U-turn out, wasting Deo-D's Tanga Berry, if it has one, and then go to Sect to finish him. The best part is that many Deo-D will use Magic Coat against Torn-T, wasting a turn, and often accomplishing nothing at all.
Wait why exactly would Deoxys-D use Magic Coat against a Tornadus-T which is primarily offensive? Only reason I can think of is Taunt, which most players probably wouldn't use against Deoxys-D fearing Magic Coat, and most people prefer Heat Wave anyway, especially out of the rain.
Torn T will sometimes run Taunt to mess over walls it can't break.
True, but you beat me to my edit lol I think most sets primarily use Hurricane/Superpower/Heat Wave/U-Turn, at least that's why I see on most Life Orb variants in the Rain, so it would be kind of rare. Besides, many players might expect the U-Turn over the Taunt anyways.
Torn-T with Taunt is by far the best set. With Taunt it beats some pokes it otherwise couldn't, such as Chansey and SpD Skarmory, while preventing set up form pretty much everything in OU, as it is the faster poke that uses non attacking moves in OU. And why would a Torn-T player fear the Magic Coat? If you have Genesect in your team, as i mentioned, then Deo-D will at best set up only SR, and at worst nothing. So even if you fuck up and Taunt as they use Magic Coat, you lost nothing.