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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
A bunch of people have been telling me how Terrakion is better than infernape now that it has SR, but I disagree. Nape also has STAB priority (that TErrakion doesn't have) and access to strong special STABs (that Techniloom doesn't have). It also has Uturn, a strong move in a mixed set, and because of it's versatility I don't think it's going to UU anytime soon.
I must also mention that now that many frailer banned pokemon are back, Napes Iron Fist Mach Punch will be valued even more.
I must also mention that now that many frailer banned pokemon are back, Napes Iron Fist Mach Punch will be valued even more.
lolwut? I think you're mistaken; so far as I understand, we haven't unbanned anything yet. XD
Besides, when it comes to Mach Punching Excadrill in the face, Breloom > Infernape any day (dat 130 base attack).
Well, Infernape has much, much better coverage and speed than breloom, making it more of an all out attacker set. Breloom is pretty much swords dance and choice band. While Infernape can run a variety of sets. It's typing also helps against sun teams and threats such as Volcarona. So I wouldn't say it is completely outclassed.
Comparing infernape to breloom is like comparing apples to oranges. They're fire and grass types for crying out loud.. -.- The fact of the matter is that breloom is MUCH more useful than infernape in this current meta. It is a good poke but not needed at all in ou. Ou will not be effected at all if it drops in usage, hell I never see it anymore and I don't consider it a threat at all when constructing a team. It's 15 seconds of fame are running out.
^Infernape is one of those Pokemon that's a good offensive threat, but if you're prepared for all the crap in OU (Dragonite, Terrak, Genies, Keldeo, Starmie, Volc, etc.), you're probably more than prepared for Infernape... You could sort of say the same for Salamence and Gyarados-- they're all definitely OU material, but considering all the other crap you have to be ready for, you don't really "need" to prepare for them specifically (Which is crazy when you think that Trio of Salamence, Infernape, Gyarados was arguably the most destructive and most difficult to counter pokes of DPP OU). Of course Metagross takes the throne for "so much awesome, but pretty much irrelevant".
In a battle field where Skarm-Bliss is becoming increasingly rare, Infernape's services are becoming more unnecessary.
Besides, it's almost 100% outclassed by the pony (except U-Turn I guess...).
Back in DPP, I theorymon'd that Infernape would have been way better if it were a water type with water stab, as in DPP, Water was pretty much a superior Fire (no SR weak, hit all the same things except Grass for at least nuetral and had better nuetral coverage in general). Now there are a lot more Pokemon with Water immunity abilities, but considering rain... yeah, Water > Fire in BW too.
Then BW gives us just that-- a Water/Fighting Mix-nape; except that it has Machamp's Bulk, 129 base ATK + 129 base Sp.A, 252 ATK EVs + 252 Sp.ATK EVs (on top of the 252 Speed), and a boosting move that gives it +1 Atk + 1 SpA + 1 SpD.
So yeah, fuck Infernape. The only things Infernape's got that Keldeo doesn't are +2 boosting moves (which were never good on a frail poke without priority anyway), U-Turn, and semi-useful abilities (that are still largely irrelevant). Oh, Infernape has Taunt/Encore, SR, and Endeavor too, if people are still doing that kinda thing.
In a battle field where Skarm-Bliss is becoming increasingly rare, Infernape's services are becoming more unnecessary.
Besides, it's almost 100% outclassed by the pony (except U-Turn I guess...).
Back in DPP, I theorymon'd that Infernape would have been way better if it were a water type with water stab, as in DPP, Water was pretty much a superior Fire (no SR weak, hit all the same things except Grass for at least nuetral and had better nuetral coverage in general). Now there are a lot more Pokemon with Water immunity abilities, but considering rain... yeah, Water > Fire in BW too.
Then BW gives us just that-- a Water/Fighting Mix-nape; except that it has Machamp's Bulk, 129 base ATK + 129 base Sp.A, 252 ATK EVs + 252 Sp.ATK EVs (on top of the 252 Speed), and a boosting move that gives it +1 Atk + 1 SpA + 1 SpD.
So yeah, fuck Infernape. The only things Infernape's got that Keldeo doesn't are +2 boosting moves (which were never good on a frail poke without priority anyway), U-Turn, and semi-useful abilities (that are still largely irrelevant). Oh, Infernape has Taunt/Encore, SR, and Endeavor too, if people are still doing that kinda thing.
skarm-bliss should be more popular again once people realize how potent sdef skarm really is right now
478 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 117 - 138 (35.03% - 41.32%)
tornadus specs hurricane vs you with a careful nature...it never 2hkos you even with sr and add roost and you never die (barring dumb crit or confusion + hitting yourself). bullet seed resist, the amoonguss fucker, the latias fucker, and sturdy provides a last mon answer to quite a few threats. i think stall in general will rise soon with so many rain teams..but rain has quite a few ways to get around even stall so itll be interesting.
Do people prefer Jolly or Adamant on Breloom? Lately, I've been trying Jolly because it seems like it can outspeed a lot of stuff for the Spore Sleep. It's really great when you swords dance and they send something like Ferrothorn to sack into the spore. I honestly don't know what Jolly outspeeds off the top of my head, but after a swords dance, it feels like I wreck everything anyway. The mind games between bullet seed and spore can be sadistic as more often then not, your opponent'll have to sack something.
Infernape is a decent scarfer by and large, and that has been the best niche I have found for him currently. I don't think he's not worthy of ou or anything like that, its just that he kinda got lost in the plethora of options going on right now. Uturn/CloseCombat/Thunderpunch/Firepunch ironfist is purty good imo. Don't try to use him for priority mach punch as its easily outclassed.
I would say jolly, as you wanna outspeed other priority brelooms or ice shard mamoswine and such.
Then again, one of the most common forms of Stall is Rain Stall, which (if it has Heal Bell Support), easily wins since it doesn't care about Tenta. I have also found that Refresh Toed with Perish Song isn't bad at forcing Tenta out and yea, most stall teams have a Tentacruel of there own. Its not rly that hard to handle Tentacruel if running stall, its certainlly not an instant win or whatever if stall lacks Tentacruel like I believed your post implied it to be.
And yea, Gothitelle will be a real bitch. Will still struggle with shit like Tyranitar being around to Pursuit it (and Scizor to U-Turn / Pursuit I guess), but as with many Shadow Tag users, if they can get that key KO (say for example that Skarmory checking Dragonite) it can turn the game on its head. SHould be interesting how it pans out, especially as it can still be a (BAN ME PLEASE) with a ST + CM set
By this, do you mean when Keldeo uses Secret Sword after a CM boost? That is the only way I can think that it can technically have a +1 in Attack, Special Attack, and Special Defense after one boost. I guess it can have a Justified boost, but I wouldn't consider a physical or mixed set viable. I would also assume that you mention it having a Base 129 Attack with 252 Attack EV's technically when it uses Secret Sword.
Hey guys,
so ive been playing competitively on pokemon showdon, and this strategy was so effective for me i felt the need to share it.
Basically, you take wobbuffet in on a support/boostin move, and encore it. Then u switch out into haxorus w/ roar/DD/outrage/EQ @ lum berry. because of wobbufft, they cant switch out-giving you a free turn to switch. next turn use dragon dance.
Now heres the fun part- they have two options-1) switch out 2) stay in. 1= free dragon dance while 2= free dragon dance(s) + *roar.* with roar u can get rid of their boosts. lum berry is the item of choice- two free outrages and healing off burn
Problems-
1) biggest problem is if they switch out to skarmory and whirlwind. Packing a super-effective fire move can get rid of it.
2)two prioriy ice moves will end your sweep, however-
2) good teammates are thundurus-T and starmie. thundurus-T can continue haxorus' sweep with its sheer special power, while starmie provides better coverage
*EDIT:
while wobb isnt the bulkiest poke, it can easily: encore a support move- if the other guy trys to OHKO(which isnt likely) a revenge kill can come in on a free turn
so ive been playing competitively on pokemon showdon, and this strategy was so effective for me i felt the need to share it.
Basically, you take wobbuffet in on a support/boostin move, and encore it. Then u switch out into haxorus w/ roar/DD/outrage/EQ @ lum berry. because of wobbufft, they cant switch out-giving you a free turn to switch. next turn use dragon dance.
Now heres the fun part- they have two options-1) switch out 2) stay in. 1= free dragon dance while 2= free dragon dance(s) + *roar.* with roar u can get rid of their boosts. lum berry is the item of choice- two free outrages and healing off burn
Problems-
1) biggest problem is if they switch out to skarmory and whirlwind. Packing a super-effective fire move can get rid of it.
2)two prioriy ice moves will end your sweep, however-
2) good teammates are thundurus-T and starmie. thundurus-T can continue haxorus' sweep with its sheer special power, while starmie provides better coverage
*EDIT:
while wobb isnt the bulkiest poke, it can easily: encore a support move- if the other guy trys to OHKO(which isnt likely) a revenge kill can come in on a free turn
This might sound wild, but have you thought about using wob on Skarm and other walls? Running a more speedy spread insures your can outspeed and encore then into something stupid, then go into Haxorus, they no longer can wall you stuck unto a move, and are forced to switch. You may want to run aqua tail > roar to beat skarm after a few boosts.
Hey guys new poster here. I've been playing on PS for a bit now and its my first experience with competitive pokemon. Been enjoying the OU tier the most so far, but wanted to stay away from weather. Well after playing around in OU a fair amount it seems like weather is very effective! So I'm curious as to what the collective opinion is on which weather group is fairing the best right now? Sun/rain/sand?
lol roar is to beat volcarona and other boosters- also, yes i forgot to include that ferrothorns , skarms, blisseys, and others when used as /leads/ are easy setup bait ( i love loling at skarms using spikes like 4 times.) however when skarm is sent in after haxorus killed something then its a problem
You know how hard it is not to sound sarcastic when telling something so effin obvious?...
A little joking aside, rain is probably the way you want to go, seeing it got 3 new toys, some still waiting to be released and unleash destruction (which are mostly DW abilities). I'm pretty sure if you comb trough this thread a bit you'll find what you should use in the rain and if you battled on PS for a bit you should (read:must) have a very good idea what rain teams usually run.
Just in case you somehow can't find out, the 3 are:
Keldeo
Thundurus-T
Tornadus-T
Oh, and one more thing.
If you have some very simple questions, similar to the one you asked just now, just go to this thread and ask it there.
It's not something you can get banned for or anything, asking questions in other threads besides the one linked, but it is annoying to stop the discussion for a simple question like this, however briefly.
Thanks man, I considered posting in simple thread, but I thought that was just things like game mechanics like breeding and what not. I'll keep it in mind!
Its funny that you bring up Skarm, since hypothetically you could Roar it out before it could Whirlwind you out, (assuming I am remembering this correctly) which means that with Spikes, you can kinda "get around" skarm by racking up hazard damage on other team members when you phase Skarmory out. It also forces Skarmory to use Brave Bird to "beat" you which, when combined with SR + BB recoil, could actually do a number on weakening it for something else to sweep. Also forces mindgames when you could get an extra DD if they Roosted expecting Roar or something.
everyone bitching about rain teams should consider hail/sun and even sand. If you can't beat weather teams, join them. I am currently in the process of ev training a sun team because i know one of the only good counters to these "rain" teams, is not having rain up. Obviously. Politoed is a bitch and doesn't take a pokemon master to take it out. Lord knows these rain teams wont have any rain dancers so if for some mysterious reason you cant take out politoed while saving ninetails, just put sunny day on a pokemon its obviously worth it.
Amoongus is the popular thing right now only cuz people have found ways to stall a rain team with it but its fame will die quickly.
Technician Breloom and imposter ditto are the only things that give me issues about this new meta and are complete game changers
Amoongus is the popular thing right now only cuz people have found ways to stall a rain team with it but its fame will die quickly.
Technician Breloom and imposter ditto are the only things that give me issues about this new meta and are complete game changers
Another hilarious quirk about Roar Haxorus is that it completely obliterates full-on Baton Pass with Mold Breaker, since Espeon can't bounce back the Roar. Just Dragon Dance up to a good number while they set up their chain (take the time to set up Stealth Rock if they're running Ninjask) and then reduce all of their preparation to nothing.
Magnezone would be very helpful against Forretress, probably the only Pokemon capable of spinning on +1 Haxorus. This way you can keep your hazard advantage and go to town on the opponent. It could also remove those troublesome Skarmory and Ferrothorn.
Magnezone would be very helpful against Forretress, probably the only Pokemon capable of spinning on +1 Haxorus. This way you can keep your hazard advantage and go to town on the opponent. It could also remove those troublesome Skarmory and Ferrothorn.
It can, however using those Priority moves mean that it loses an important coverage move. NP sets for example lose Grass Knot which means water types dgaf about switching in now, while Swords Dance sets lose out on Stone Edge which means that Infernape is going to find it a little tricky to get past certain flying types like Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados. There is also the fact that its priority does really get any "extra" coverage which means most of the revenge killers (Lati@s , Mence, Landorus, a few im forgetting), resist your STAB priority anyway. Hitting Terrakion is nice, I will admit, but it just seems a sub par choice based on the loss of a coverage move. (Unless you are running Sun in which case you can bulldoze through some water or dragon types with those boosted Fire attacks).
^Fire types will always be missing out on coverage on something, and relying on priority moves only make the matter worse. This isn't Lucario with a base 80 priority attack with 110 base Attack and great resistances to set SD up-- Infernape has a really hard time setting up, and even Iron Fist boosted, Mach Punch just doesn't hit very hard, especially with Ape's mediocre ATK stat.
^Ah, I use Skarmory all the time-- I don't question at all its viability. I also love how EVERYONE underestimates Brave Bird. Skarm with no ATK EVs gets a surprising amount of kills if you play just a bit aggro. Takes hits great, and its 4 moves are just perfect chemistry.
It's Blissey and Chansey that are kinda... they're good, but just not what they used to be.
That's just it, Secret Sword is really all it needs-- Mixnape too, was all Special except for Close Combat. For a powerful special sweeper, a physical Fighting-type attack would all it needs to effectively work mixed since all the best specially defensive Pokemon are weak to Fighting (except Latias, who you're not getting through anyway). Even if Keldeo had 129 base Attack, you'd probably be going:
-Special Water
-Phys Fighting
-Special Ice/Dark Hidden Power
-filler or boosting move.
on a Mix-Sweeper set. Damage-wise, it's arguably the most efficient. So yeah, even with just Secret Sword, you can see Keldeo as a 129 Attack / 129 Sp.ATK mixed sweeper with 252 EVs in both offensive stats. That's just so damn broken compared to Infernape. Sure Keldeo has coverage problems-- but Infernape has them just as bad, and even worse now with Drizzle raining on its parade.
^Ah, I use Skarmory all the time-- I don't question at all its viability. I also love how EVERYONE underestimates Brave Bird. Skarm with no ATK EVs gets a surprising amount of kills if you play just a bit aggro. Takes hits great, and its 4 moves are just perfect chemistry.
It's Blissey and Chansey that are kinda... they're good, but just not what they used to be.
That's just it, Secret Sword is really all it needs-- Mixnape too, was all Special except for Close Combat. For a powerful special sweeper, a physical Fighting-type attack would all it needs to effectively work mixed since all the best specially defensive Pokemon are weak to Fighting (except Latias, who you're not getting through anyway). Even if Keldeo had 129 base Attack, you'd probably be going:
-Special Water
-Phys Fighting
-Special Ice/Dark Hidden Power
-filler or boosting move.
on a Mix-Sweeper set. Damage-wise, it's arguably the most efficient. So yeah, even with just Secret Sword, you can see Keldeo as a 129 Attack / 129 Sp.ATK mixed sweeper with 252 EVs in both offensive stats. That's just so damn broken compared to Infernape. Sure Keldeo has coverage problems-- but Infernape has them just as bad, and even worse now with Drizzle raining on its parade.